SAYNOTO0870.COM - Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill

idb

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Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Aug 10^th, 2007 at 12:18am

http://www.lep.co.uk/news?articleid=3100349

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Changing the number of a telephone information line will cost council tax payers £32,000 because signs on 8,000 bus stops throughout the county are being replaced.

County Coun Tony Martin, cabinet member for sustainable development at Lancashire County Council, was expected to approve funding for new signs on Thursday.

The signs will give the revised Traveline number which Ofcom changed from the premium rate 0870 to a national rate 0871 200 22 33 number.
>>

Journalism at its finest.

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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #1 - Aug 10^th, 2007 at 12:51am OMGG!!! What is this world becoming?
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Heinz Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,362 Essex	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #2 - Aug 10^th, 2007 at 9:22am idb wrote on Aug 10^th, 2007 at 12:18am: The signs will give the revised Traveline number which Ofcom changed from the premium rate 0870 to a national rate 0871 200 22 33 number. There's that naughty Ofcom doing its work again!
Back to top	After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015 IP Logged

loddon

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #3 - Aug 10^th, 2007 at 9:44am

idb wrote on Aug 10^th, 2007 at 12:18am:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news?articleid=3100349

<<
.

from the PREMIUM rate 0870 to a national rate 0871 200 22 33 number.
>>

Journalism at its finest.

Well at least Lancashire County Council recognise a PREMIUM rate when they see one!!!! Wink

However, 0871 is apparently a NATIONAL rate!!!!! Shocked

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jgxenite

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #4 - Aug 10^th, 2007 at 10:27am

I don't see why the heck the taxpayer should have to foot the bill for a private company to change its phone number?! Traveline should be footing the bill since they decided to change the number, not Ofcom. Ofcom just told them they wouldn't be able to get revenue off 0870 numbers any more - which Traveline, who obviously profit from their 0870 number, took to mean we must move to the most expensive 0871 number so we keep our revenue going.

Ofcourse, Lancashire County Council wouldn't have this issue if they just publicised the number for their local PTE call centre number - just Metro and SYPTE do in Yorkshire

.

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loddon

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #5 - Aug 10^th, 2007 at 11:11am

Why don't you write to Lancs CC making these points? And refer to the SAYNO.... campaign.

You should refer them to the Consumer Protection Act 1987 which states : ------

"Under the Consumer Protection Act 1987, it is an offence to give misleading price indications to consumers, and the maximum penalty is an unlimited fine. Liability can extend to the business which provided the number, if they gave incorrect pricing information to the advertiser."

And under Trading Standards: -----

"You should not use the terms ‘local rate’ or ‘national rate’, or any reference to local or national rates. You also should not use words which could imply a local or national rate (eg. ‘Lo-call’, ‘low rate’, ‘National call’, ‘standard rate’)."

To avoid any confusion, they should make it clear that most callers will pay more to contact them on a Special Services number than on a geographic number ---- or face the possiblity of prosecution under the Act.

And keep us on this site updated.

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« Last Edit: Aug 10^th, 2007 at 1:11pm by DaveM »

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derrick

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #6 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 11:35am

I have spoken to the reporter at Lancashire Evening Post,(LEP), and he has said that he will get back to me after finding out some more info and will,hopefully, do an update to this.

I have also e-mailed Traveline with this query:-

Can you please inform me if Traveline is publicly funded and if so why are you using a covert revenue sharing number,(0871), contrary to COI regulations to display a geographical number with equal prominence, or to use one of the new 03 numbers that are now available.

And received this reply:-

Dear Derrick,

Thank you for your email on the 10th August.

In response to your query where you ask why we chose to use a “revenue sharing number “please find my response as follows:

All literature we produce that carries the Traveline number clearly states the cost of the call per minute. 0871 numbers are used to provide business rate services and are in compliance with ICSTIS (premium-rate number regulator www.icstis.org.uk). GMPTE and GMPTIL in the interest of customer service and awareness display call charges as standard practice on all information produced baring the number.

The decision was made by the National Traveline board when an enforced change to number ranges by BT was announced. Many of our customers indicated that they prefer a “one stop shop” number where they only have to record a single number to answer all there public transport enquiries regardless of where they are in the UK, this upholds the board decision that a national number is an important principal hence the move to 0871.

An increase of cost would have been incurred by remaining with 0870; this cost would be passed on to the PTE and service providers. In choosing to move to a 0871 number we can sustain the Traveline service whilst providing the consumer price transparency for the call with a static financial impact to all parties.

I hope that this has addressed your concerns, however please do not hesitate to contact me should you require further assistance.

Lynne Hagan

Operations Manager

GMPTIL

2 Piccadilly Place, Manchester M1 3BG

www.gmpte.com

Also this in another e-mail:-

GMPTE is not a public transport operator, but acts as a co-ordinating body for
certain aspects of bus, rail and tram operation within Greater Manchester

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« Last Edit: Aug 13^th, 2007 at 11:38am by derrick »

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jgxenite

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #7 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 12:06pm

derrick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 11:35am:

Many of our customers indicated that they prefer a “one stop shop” number...

And why does this "one stop shop" number have to be non-geographic? I think the argument that "people don't like calling numbers outside of their geographic area" is not an excuse that will pass any longer! Considering the vast majority of their "customers" are likely to be people stood at a bus, rail or tram stop, therefore using a mobile phone, completely nullifies any ideas surrounding "non-local geographic" numbers. And of course, the fact that an 0871 number costs (atleast!) 35p a minute from a mobile has completely passed Traveline by...

derrick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 11:35am:

An increase of cost would have been incurred by remaining with 0870; this cost would be passed on to the PTE and service providers. In choosing to move to a 0871 number we can sustain the Traveline service whilst providing the consumer price transparency for the call with a static financial impact to all parties.

Only because it would be charged at the same rate as a geographic call, with none of the revenue going to Traveline. Also, transparency - bah! Most people have absolutely no idea how much it costs to call a non-geographic number, let alone an 0871 number. "10p from a BT landline" - how many people are still on BT? How many people are likely to call this on a mobile?

That reply is basically a cover for Traveline making profit from your calls, and not really caring about how much it costs the normal consumer to ring them as long as they make a healthy profit from it. As I'll keep pointing out (and did you mention that to GMPTE Derrick?) Metro and SYPTE seem to do perfectly well with a geographic number in West and South Yorkshire respectively. I don't think I've ever heard any complains about ringing Leeds or Rotherham (respectively) if you don't live in those areas but require travel information!

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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #8 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:30pm jgxenite wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 12:06pm: As I'll keep pointing out (and did you mention that to GMPTE Derrick?) Metro and SYPTE seem to do perfectly well with a geographic number in West and South Yorkshire respectively. I did not in my first e-mail to them, but I have done in my reply to theirs.
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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #9 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:45pm Be interesting to see how they weasel their way out of that one . I suspect the old "one national number for all" excuse will be used...
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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #10 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:50pm Possibly, but that would include 01/02/03, not the most expensive NGN, I mean, come on why go from one that will cost 6p per minute, (from a BT line), to one costing 10p per minute? anyone NOT know the answer please sit in the corner
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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #11 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:52pm jgxenite wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:45pm: Be interesting to see how they weasel their way out of that one . I suspect the old "one national number for all" excuse will be used... Well I know that they have opened the e-mail I sent earlier, at 12-12 p. m., they opened it 5 minutes later
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jgxenite

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #12 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 3:53pm

Yes, they could easily have gone for a less costly non-geographic number (admittedly though, all non-geographics are premium rate on mobiles!) but instead went for the most expensive one. I suspect that either they don't care (most likely) or they aren't actually aware of how much non-geographic numbers cost on mobiles.

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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill Reply #13 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 4:06pm I suspect that they are formulating a way of weaseling their way out of it , hence the not so quick reply.
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Dave

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Re: Tax payers foot £32,000 sign bill
Reply #14 - Aug 13^th, 2007 at 5:24pm

Quote:

All literature we produce that carries the Traveline number clearly states the cost of the call per minute. 0871 numbers are used to provide business rate services and are in compliance with ICSTIS (premium-rate number regulator www.icstis.org.uk). …

This paragraph starts off so promising. Stating the cost of the call is a step in the right direction, so long as this doesn't involve an "national rate" rubbish.

Second sentence mentions "business rate". This makes me sick as it is yet another term coined by the telecoms industry in much the same guise as the afforementioned "national rate". So-called business rate is an excuse to rip-off the consumer. It makes the price of a telephone call (practically speaking) be fixed between providers. You won't find a provider that will charge less than the quoted (BT) rates for a particular 0871 number. You will find mobile providers charge more. It's corporate arrogance and nothing to do with providing telecommunications services.

Quote:

The decision was made by the National Traveline board when an enforced change to number ranges by BT was announced. …

Ah yes, it's BT's decision. Roll Eyes

Can someone please inform Ms Hagan and "the board" that BT no longer make such decisions and that it is now in the hands of Ofcom?

Quote:

Many of our customers indicated that they prefer a “one stop shop” number where they only have to record a single number to answer all there public transport enquiries regardless of where they are in the UK, this upholds the board decision that a national number is an important principal hence the move to 0871.

Aside from the fact that "there" should have been "their", a move to 0871 did not mean that they had to charge 10 pence per minute at all times. 0871 numbers can be set at different (BT) "pricing points", so please ask Ms Hagan why they opted for the maximum, rather than one the same as (or nearly the same as) the 0870 number. One word springs to mind: Greed.

Quote:

An increase of cost would have been incurred by remaining with 0870; this cost would be passed on to the PTE and service providers. In choosing to move to a 0871 number we can sustain the Traveline service whilst providing the consumer price transparency for the call with a static financial impact to all parties.

Oh, so Traveline is being paid exactly the same amount of revenue from the new 0871 number it was with the 0870 one? I was under the impression that higher call charges means more revenue is available.

Also, the way in which the originating telco (the provider the caller is with) retains an amount cost-based amount. This is how it is calculated when calls come from a BT line. Thus, the weekend and evening call rates are lower which means that there is more for the telco providing the NGN. Some 0871 providers pay more during the evening and weekend.

So, either Ms Hagan is lying, or Traveline and its "board" has not negotiated as good a deal as it might have done with its telco.

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« Last Edit: Aug 13^th, 2007 at 5:25pm by Dave »

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