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SayNoTo118800.co.uk (Read 89,026 times)
saynoto118800
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #15 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:58pm
 
Hi, Barry here.

NGMsGhost, thank you for your kind input.
As with all the other comments we are taking them on board and will be adding a more detailed 'About Us' section on www.saynoto118800.co.uk

Agree with you on certain use of 07 numbers - however, the point you are missing here is that we are NOT a company formed for the benefit from the use of said numbers.

Our service is to provide a 'Safe number' for an individual to give to a Company or Organisiation such as yourself.

I am assuming that you are in fact a Company or Organisiation who has in fact sold mobile phone details to 118800. Angry
We do expect this kind of response because our service obviously creates a problem for you and/or 118800, if the personal data does not contain a 'true' mobile number.

We are waiting patiently for Connectivity/118800 to initiate legal action against us, however they have so far been very quiet on the matter.
Obviously you need to understand that we would not take on Connectivity without having a legal action contingency fund in place ourselves Roll Eyes

Our current office space is small, however it served a purpose for the start-up and we are now having to move to larger premises to further the campaign.

Please let us all know how you get on with OFCOM (we found Phone pay Plus much more helpful though). If you could post it here, that would be great, thank you.

Kind Regards

Barry Issell

www.Saynoto118800.co.uk
66-68 St.Loyes Street
Bedford MK40 1EZ

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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #16 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:48pm
 
I must say I share NGM's misgivings and scepticism about this

There seems to be something inherently perverse about objecting to one organisation potentially having some of one's personal details, and wondering how they might be used, then encouraging people to 'protest' by voluntarily signing up with another which seems to be doing the same thing but has no stated privacy policy at all.

The 118800 service seems rather odd to me anyway, in that it asks people to give their information to it in order to establish that it wasn't already on there.

On a separate matter, I asked a mobile network about what I viewed as false claims made by another organisation with respect to privacy policy, after I received an unsolicited text message, and the provider absolutely lied that it was working in conjunction with the mobile network. The mobile network confirmed that all of its customers' numbers are by default ex-directory, and they never give any such information to anyone.

So 118800 certainly does not obtain info direct from the networks.

My feeling is that it is trading on paranoia, that people are worried that their details may be available somewhere when they should not be.

But all other organisations have to obtain specific permission from people to be contacted in connection with their account or whatever it is.

Never give your details to people you don't want to have them, and never allow any company at all to pass on details to so-called carefully selected other companies etc ...

then neither 118800 or its inverse should have any leverage at all

Until halfway through writing this, I hadn't actually realised that the 118800 site has been delayed or taken down, perhaps as I was away some of the time

On http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jul/13/mobile-phone-directory-suspended there are adjacent remarks that make me burst out laughing

Quote:
Last week the office of the Information Commissioner said it wanted to talk to Connectivity, the site behind the 118 800 service, to find out how it planned to protect consumers against having their numbers included against their will.

However, a spokeswoman for 118 800 said the site's owners had earlier talked to the Commissioner and ensured the site did comply with UK laws.


This to me shows that the Information Commissioner's principles are somewhat in question at the moment.

I called them specifically to discuss a couple of points about 118800 some time ago, and was talked down to, treated as a timewaster, and cursorily dismissed by someone who absolutely refused to make notes on the points I made, which were specifically that for most such information systems people actively opt in and without having done so are by default are assumed out, whereas this site was inviting or seeming to require people to give their details in order to opt out, thus implying those who did not were vulnerable, and was this not intuitively a reversal of default conditions and a paradox that people must volunteer personal information in order to not have it recorded?

I wonder if perhaps that thought has arrived in the Information Commission's brain after all, albeit slowly.

When I tried to look myself up he 118800 site, it said it had loads of results for that name in that area, which sounds so authoritative it might tend to make people believe it was actually true, and thus make them worry. But when I zoomed the area in, it had none at all.

As for saynoto118800, it seems to be having some difficulty describing what it actually is, and it hasn't made a wise choice. There are plenty of commercial services offering 070 to various users, but I don't think there actually are many. Perhaps the most prominent are advertisers in freeads newspapers and conmen spammers forwarding the number to a Nigerian mobile and pretending to sell new iPhone and Nokia N999s on the internet. But actually in pragmatic terms the numbers are or should be almost defunct.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:53pm by andy9 »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #17 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 3:13pm
 
My dear Andy for once I find myself in the unusual position of being in agreement with all the points you made in your last post including the dismissive way in which your very legitimate points of concern seem to have been treated by front line staff on the telephone at the IC's office.  I have to note in passing that any attempt to bring legitimate points to the attention of Ofcom via its Contact Centre are usually sadly treated in a similarly dismissive manner, even though the organisation does not profess to have any other point of contact for the public at large on policy based issues.

If saynoto118800 is altrustic in the way it suggests then I would have thought all of its goals could have been achieved using 5p per minute 0844 numbers as they are much more unregulated than 070.  That being so I can only believe that saynoto118800 actually believes that many people will be duped in to calling the so called safe 070 number thereby providing its telecoms business partner (who may perhaps have some of the same directors as saynoto118800) with the large amount of income to be earned on such 070 calls.

It just does not make sense to me that anyone who has a strong beef about privacy abuse by commerce in general would set up solely to block the activities of this one company when there are many other business organisations doing similarly questionable things with the pesonal data of individuals.

If anyone is still in doubt I would suggest they check out the youtube videos at www.youtube.com/user/SayNoTo118800 with various things happening in people's back gardens with rather small blimps and try and make up their own mind.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:10pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #18 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm
 
Hi, Barry here.

Obviously we looked at all the available number ranges.
The only one that permits attachment to a mobile number at no cost to the end-user is 07.
Unfortunately the use of 0844/5 would mean that the end user would have to pay for the diverted leg of the mobile call ! - obviously this is not a workable option NgNGhost.

It seems that your 'beef' appears to be that revenue is being generated and paid to the Service Provider of these numbers.
However, this happens with all call traffic on all networks, doesn't it ?

You seem to be missing the point that the www.saynoto118800.co.uk  'Safe numbers' are to be given to all Organisations and Businesses that are likely to pass over that information to 118800.
Whether they be Market research, debt collectors, utililty, business, the local council or whoever..
It is these organisations that would bear the cost of the call anyway - not the phone user.


With regard to the blimp, this is the largest you are legally allowed to fly in UK Airspace.
It is the largest commercially available which also has to have certification and a permit to fly by the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority).

We approached the owner of that particular property as they are adjacent to the busy A1M Motorway which is an absolutely fantastic place to fly. Smiley



Kind regards,

Barry Issell

www.SayNoto118800.co.uk
66-68 St. Loyes Street
Bedford MK40 1EZ
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #19 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:31pm
 
saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
It seems that your 'beef' appears to be that revenue is being generated and paid to the Service Provider of these numbers.

The 'beef' with revenue sharing numbers is not the payment to end service provider, which is merely a consequence of the principles that allow it. It is those underlying principles that this campaign objects to. In principle, 070 are identical with respect to mobile termination charges.

saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
You seem to be missing the point that the www.saynoto118800.co.uk  'Safe numbers' are to be given to all Organisations and Businesses that are likely to pass over that information to 118800.

Do you know for certain that 118800 will add 070 personal numbers to its database?? I assumed that as its purpose is to provide mobile numbers that it would only list mobiles number which start 075, 077, 078, 079 and 07624 for Manx Telecom (Isle of Mann mobiles). Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that they will filter our 070 numbers, unless you know different.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:32pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #20 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:39pm
 
saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
Obviously we looked at all the available number ranges.
The only one that permits attachment to a mobile number at no cost to the end-user is 07.


You didn't look too hard.  The first site I checked, Flextel, one of the biggest supplier of personal numbers, allows their 0871 numbers to divert to the "big four" [sic] mobile networks.   At 10p/min to call, these will almost certainly be cheaper for the callers  than any 070 number you might be issuing.  And you can always give 070s to those unfortunate enough to use a different mobile network.

Incidentally, Flextel's approach to commission on 070 numbers is that numbers you register yourself earn you no commission.  However, introduce somebody else to use the service, and you DO earn commission, on any numbers that that person in turn registers.  If you would like an introduction, feel free to PM me for a link, and I'll happily collect the commission that you seem not to be interested in receiving.

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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:40pm by irrelevant »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #21 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:52pm
 
In any case, it's surely just absurd to object to giving someone a mobile number to call you on, then instead give them a different number which they can call you on anyway and diverts to the same mobile anyway?

In what way is this supposed to prevent people receiving unsolicited phone calls?

Surely it makes more sense and is a lot simpler not to give a number to anyone you don't want to, and not to give any company permission to pass the number on to anyone else?

And not giving anyone your number includes to these two companies, as far as I am concerned

saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
You seem to be missing the point that the www.saynoto118800.co.uk  'Safe numbers' are to be given to all Organisations and Businesses that are likely to pass over that information to 118800.
Whether they be Market research, debt collectors, utililty, business, the local council or whoever..



You are rather close to copying the modus operandi of the company you criticise, by trying to engender the paranoia that such organisations might regularly flout the Data Protection Act

Do you have any grounds whatsoever for these casual smears? Can you give some specific details, so they can be reported to the Information Commissioner?

And where is your own privacy policy?

And have you ever heard of the Telephone Preference Service?

http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/tps/news2.html
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:02pm by andy9 »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #22 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:57pm
 
andy9 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:52pm:
In any case, it's surely just absurd to object to giving someone a mobile number to call you on, then instead give them a different number which they can call you on anyway and diverts to the same mobile anyway?

I assume that the idea behind the Saynoto118800 070 "safe numbers" is that they are provided to companies and you continue giving your normal mobile number to friends and family.

andy9 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:52pm:
Surely it makes more sense and is a lot simpler not to give a number to anyone you don't want to, and not to give any company permission to pass the number on to anyone else?

I avoid giving my mobile number to any company. I did so to my local garage to notify me when my car was ready and they took it upon themselves to add it to a list that they send what they probably term "promotional" texts to me.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:59pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #23 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:29pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:57pm:
I assume that the idea behind the Saynoto118800 070 "safe numbers" is that they are provided to companies and you continue giving your normal mobile number to friends and family.


Why would anyone feel safe giving their mobile number to a bunch of guys in Bedfordshire who only registered their website a few weeks ago and who seem to spend their time filling up blimps in the back garden of some rather ordinary looking suburban houses while their rather ordinary sounding mates watch them do so?

Dave wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:57pm:
andy9 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:52pm:
Surely it makes more sense and is a lot simpler not to give a number to anyone you don't want to, and not to give any company permission to pass the number on to anyone else?

I avoid giving my mobile number to any company. I did so to my local garage to notify me when my car was ready and they took it upon themselves to add it to a list that they send what they probably term "promotional" texts to me.


In general I find that if I tick the box saying I don't want any unsolicited marketing from that company or its commercial allies they respect my wishes.  If they do not comply I report them in a personal email to the Chief Executive of the Direct Marketing Association (who run the TPS) and to the Information Commissioner.  However I think I am probably on some special "do not call this guy or you will be sorry" list circulated by the DMA by now as I only get an unwanted call about once every four or five months and they are usually from organisations based overseas.  In fact I think it is even less than that now since I brought most of the main offenders to the attention of the Information Commissioner on one of their report forms.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:37pm by Dave »  

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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #24 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:38pm
 
Hi, Barry here.

In response to 'irrelevant''s comment. As previously mentioned we thoroughly looked at alternative numbers including the 0871 number range that you suggest. Unfortunately, from the 1st August these numbers have been re-classified as 'premium rate'. Premium rate numbers have to have a pre-recorded message warning on connection.

If the '07' numbers were classified as premium rate this would mean that they also would have to have a warning which would mean that the numbers would be unworkable in many instances (eg. intruder alarm notification) and generally cause people many problems.

Thank you for offering to collect commission on these numbers, however we are not in a position to pay anything to anyone as we are a totally non-profit making organisation. You will find that you have to be registered as a Service provider to receive any kind of revenue - something we are not and have no intention of being.

In response to Dave and his problem with getting promotional text's from the garage - Please feel free to enter your number on www.saynoto118800.co.uk and the Safe number you receive back will not be able to receive any promotional texts - 100% Guaranteed !

We do not collect personal information Dave - not even your name is neccesary. There was a privacy policy on the site however we were informed that due to the limited information being gathered, it was unnessary - so we removed it. We may now replace it making clear that any mobile number entered will remain confidential - Not that you can really do much with just a mobile number and no accompanying personal information.. Roll Eyes

The purpose of the site is for any privacy minded individual to give out a 'Safe number' in the knowledge that they will NEVER receive an unsolicited text SMS message from 118800 (or the local garage) but can still be contacted by phone.
If the data 118800 obtains contain an 070 contact number, then our site has obviously done it's job.  Smiley

Keep those comments coming guys !

Kind regards,

Barry Issell
www.saynoto118800.co.uk

66-68 St.Loyes Street
Bedford MK40 1EZ

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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #25 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:45pm
 
saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:38pm:
Thank you for offering to collect commission on these numbers, however we are not in a position to pay anything to anyone as we are a totally non-profit making organisation. You will find that you have to be registered as a Service provider to receive any kind of revenue - something we are not and have no intention of being.

So by not "collecting" the revenue, you leave it for your telephone provider as payment for the service. This is the 'beef' we have with such numbers I was talking about.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:46pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #26 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:46pm
 
saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
It seems that your 'beef' appears to be that revenue is being generated and paid to the Service Provider of these numbers.  However, this happens with all call traffic on all networks, doesn't it ?


No revenue share doesn't happen at all on numbers that start 01, 02 or 03.

Quote:
You seem to be missing the point that the www.saynoto118800.co.uk  'Safe numbers' are to be given to all Organisations and Businesses that are likely to pass over that information to 118800.  Whether they be Market research, debt collectors, utililty, business, the local council or whoever. It is these organisations that would bear the cost of the call anyway - not the phone user.


All of which makes it abundantly clear that you do expect the numbers to be called and that the telecoms company terminating them is going to make a lot of money.  You must be pretty daft if you think 118800 won't easily be able to filter your bogus numbers out of their database as they are in a different number range from legitimate mobile numbers (i.e. 070 and not 075 to 079)

Quote:
Barry Issell
www.SayNoto118800.co.uk
66-68 St. Loyes Street
Bedford MK40 1EZ

So do tell us more about the career of Barry Issell and what has allowed you to become so financially fortunate that you no longer need to engage in conventional employment.   Since your surname is rather unusual it soon becomes apparent that there is not much sign of the former life and times of Barry Issell.
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #27 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 7:01pm
 
saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:38pm:
If the '07' numbers were classified as premium rate this would mean that they also would have to have a warning which would mean that the numbers would be unworkable in many instances (eg. intruder alarm notification) and generally cause people many problems.


The intruder alarm and burglar alarm argument was used by Flextel and other cunning telcos to give Ofcom an excuse to do a U-Turn at the last minute and not require organisations who will still be charging above 01/02 rate for calling 0870 to have a call price announcement.   However I fail to see the relevance of this point to your application when you are aiming to offer replacements for mobile phone numbers that offer only voice based services to the caller.  Given their charge levels 070 quite clearly should now be regulated as Premium Rate but unfortunately spineless Ofcom was got at because it would mean the death of the ripoff Hospedia (nee Patientline) and the government having to pick up the tab to offer normal priced phone calls to hospital bedside phones.  So you aim to exploit this loophole to allow callers to suffer PNS k rate without warning when they think they may be making an ordinary rate mobile phone call out of bundled minutes.  That sounds really helpful to the caller and for call price transparency and honesty.

Quote:
Thank you for offering to collect commission on these numbers, however we are not in a position to pay anything to anyone as we are a totally non-profit making organisation. You will find that you have to be registered as a Service provider to receive any kind of revenue - something we are not and have no intention of being.


So tell me the name of the telecoms partner company you are getting your 070 numbers from and whether any of the directors of that company are the same people as those in charge of your "non-profit making organisation"

Quote:
In response to Dave and his problem with getting promotional text's from the garage - Please feel free to enter your number on www.saynoto118800.co.uk and the Safe number you receive back will not be able to receive any promotional texts - 100% Guaranteed !


Surely not giving them a mobile number at all is far simpler?

Quote:
Not that you can really do much with just a mobile number and no accompanying personal information.. Roll Eyes


You mean apart from sending them all unsolicited texts for porn and Viagra from a number based in Russia or Afghanistan etc? Roll Eyes

Quote:
The purpose of the site is for any privacy minded individual to give out a 'Safe number' in the knowledge that they will NEVER receive an unsolicited text SMS message from 118800 (or the local garage) but can still be contacted by phone.
If the data 118800 obtains contain an 070 contact number, then our site has obviously done it's job.  Smiley


I hope your outfit is sued by 118800 as your purpose seems purely vindictive and I see nothing wrong with 118800s service as long as there is the equivalent of a TPS opt out on mobile phone numbers.  It is extremely irritating that there is no official equivalent of Directory Enquiries for mobile phones and for those who want their number to be listed.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 7:04pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #28 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 7:05pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:57pm:
I avoid giving my mobile number to any company. I did so to my local garage to notify me when my car was ready and they took it upon themselves to add it to a list that they send what they probably term "promotional" texts to me.


I  avoided giving any mobile numbers to our dentist ... now they send texts to the house phone to advise of appointments instead.  Which cause us to get a telephone call to which we have to press 1 to have the text read out, or it tries again.  We were on holiday once when it tried.  25 messages on the answering machine before it gave up, and it doesn't even keep it past the next day, we found on our return when we tried to call it back. grr..


saynoto118800 wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:38pm:
In response to 'irrelevant''s comment. As previously mentioned we thoroughly looked at alternative numbers including the 0871 number range that you suggest. Unfortunately, from the 1st August these numbers have been re-classified as 'premium rate'. Premium rate numbers have to have a pre-recorded message warning on connection.

Only if you don't advise callers of the charge in advance..
(Personally, I think this is a dreadful sitution, where charges must be promoted for 10p/min numbers, but not for 50p/min 070 numbers!)

Quote:
If the '07' numbers were classified as premium rate this would mean that they also would have to have a warning which would mean that the numbers would be unworkable in many instances (eg. intruder alarm notification) and generally cause people many problems.
You're quoting the PN industry almost verbatim there.  I've never known the charge advice notice on, say, calls via 18866, to cause any problems.

Quote:
Thank you for offering to collect commission on these numbers, however we are not in a position to pay anything to anyone as we are a totally non-profit making organisation. You will find that you have to be registered as a Service provider to receive any kind of revenue - something we are not and have no intention of being.
Oh no, you'd not have to pay anything - you get the service you're already getting, and Flextel pay me directly. I'm quite happy to fill in any additional paperwork they require of me..  :-p


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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 7:09pm by irrelevant »  
 
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Re: SayNoTo118800.co.uk
Reply #29 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 8:59pm
 
I have been following this interesting debate for a few days now and felt it was time to add my comments. I am sure 118 800 are also following this closely and I am sure it will only be a matter of days until we hear from 'Neil' or some other made up person that posts on web sites for 118 800 but never replies to peoples concerns.

So first off I am the founder of the opt in mobile directory enquires service mobile118.co.uk. We have been running for several years (118 800 claim to be the first) and whilst we cant offer anywhere near the number of mobile numbers they can, all the people who have joined our site have chosen to 'opt in' out of choice. We never have and never will sell information to any third party or use your number to spam you via email or SMS.

My thoughts on 118 800 is this is a good idea,  but just handled very wrongly - I would have done it very different. I have met them and I am sure of their good intension's, but I can guarantee you they never expected this backlash. When I met them over a year ago they were going to contact each user and make sure they wanted to be added. A times online interview with their CEO Raj confirmed this. I wonder what changed? I also wonder what 3i must make about this? If I was on the 3i board I would concerned about my companies reputation as a venture company. Its also strange that nobody in the media has asked what companies provided this information? Personally, I would like to know who provided the information plus do 118 800 expect to buy more numbers in the future?

The general public will never use this brand 118 800 need to rethink. I am not aware of any company that has managed to make a success after such bad publicity. When people wont even opt out because they are paranoid the company will use their details you know you have issues. When they re launch (and they will) expect more emails, web sites and campaigns...

Happy to answer any questions you may have or contact me through my site.

Kind Regards

David
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 9:03pm by Mobile118 »  
 
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