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GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire) (Read 890,167 times)
Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #165 - Mar 27th, 2012 at 11:44am
 
Brockworth Surgery has introduced a geographic number to run alongside its 0844 g6 Business Rate number. The Microsoft Word document explaining it says the geographic number is more likely to be engaged.

Here's the table that forms the main part of that page:
Quote:
0844 477 3589 01452 862247
We set up this number some years ago after we received complaints that our phone number was always engaged. This number has a special call stacking system so that you should not receive the engaged tone You may find that this number is more likely to be engaged. Keep re-dialling – once connected you will be in the same system as the 0844 number
When dialling from certain networks this number may be more expensive – please check with your network supplier – surprisingly a lot of suppliers are no more expensive or even cheaper on this number than using the 01452 number For some suppliers this is the cheaper option when ringing the surgery – check with your supplier
It is difficult or not possible to ring this number from outside the UK Ringing from outside the UK is the same as for any other UK  number
Analysis of government patient satisfaction surveys show that patients at surgeries who use 0844 numbers find it easier to get through on the phone, easier to speak to a doctor and to get test results ( information from NEG Phone Supplier) When using a local number it may be more difficult to connect to the surgery
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catj
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #166 - Apr 5th, 2012 at 10:52am
 
NEG are not giving up their fight to ensure that Doctors make a profit out of people calling their surgeries:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/non-geo-numbers/summary/...

Quote:
11.27 [Redacted] ... argued that the revenue share restriction on 03 numbers should be lifted.  ...  ...  ...  ...  ...  ...  ...  Similarly NEG argued that revenue-share should be permitted on 03, noting that the take-up of 03 by doctors surgeries had been limited to date because of the absence of that revenue-sharing and in particular because of the contribution of that revenue towards infrastructure costs (i.e. enabling surgeries to provide enhanced telephony solutions such as call waiting).

I wonder who "Redacted" is?

Quote:
11.84 NEG considered that Ofcom’s proposals could actually reduce consumer confidence in the 084 range and increase confusion because it would not enable Primary Care Organisations using 084 numbers for which a patient paid no more than an equivalent geographic rate to be distinguished from any other 084 numbers where the cost to call was significantly more. It believed this would lead to all 084 numbers in the NHS being unfairly and inaccurately perceived as being far more costly for patients to call than 01, 02 or 03 numbers, even when in some cases the opposite was true.


Clearly, NEG are still promoting activities which have been banned under NHS contracts since April 2010.


There's probably a few other gems to be found in that 450 page consultation and the additional 400 pages of annexes.
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« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2012 at 11:55am by catj »  
 
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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #167 - Apr 6th, 2012 at 11:53am
 
On the anniversary of the ban, there was a short report in the Sheffield Star in which local MP Clive Betts says that his constituents have written to him about this matter:

Sheffield GPs’ expensive phone numbers
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bazzerfewi
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #168 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 3:38pm
 
I have just read the weak reply have none of the MPs got any back bone any more.

I have had the same problem with Dan Jarvis MP for Barnsley Central - he has stopped responding to my messages. Angry
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #169 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:03pm
 
My own feeling is that the only way forward is to challenge this through the judicial system. Unlike the current participants, who all appear to absolve themselves from any responsibility, courts rely on evidence, which in this matter, is overwhelming and demonstrable. I am, however, sufficiently unfamiliar with the UK legal system to offer any suggestion. Perhaps someone who has incurred a large cost when calling from a cellular service could start county court action against a surgery/PCT/some other body, simply as a 'test case'.
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bazzerfewi
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #170 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm
 
Sounds like a good idea but the only problem is that most of the SAYNO members will not have accumulated a large outstanding bill because by our nature we avoid calling expensive numbers.

Have we come to the end of the line with this or can anybody suggest the next productive move
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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #171 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:39pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm:
Sounds like a good idea but the only problem is that most of the SAYNO members will not have accumulated a large outstanding bill because by our nature we avoid calling expensive numbers.

Have we come to the end of the line with this or can anybody suggest the next productive move

People can make a test telephone call to one of these numbers in order to demonstrate that their provider charges in accordance with its published pricing information. I would not think that evidence would have to come in the form of many many calls on one's bill where it is necessary to demonstrate that a provider charges in accordance with its pricing information.
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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:42pm by Dave »  
 
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bazzerfewi
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #172 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:45pm
 
Dave wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:39pm:
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm:
Sounds like a good idea but the only problem is that most of the SAYNO members will not have accumulated a large outstanding bill because by our nature we avoid calling expensive numbers.

Have we come to the end of the line with this or can anybody suggest the next productive move

People can make a test telephone call to one of these numbers in order to demonstrate that their provider charges in accordance with its published pricing information. I would not think that evidence would have to come in the form of many many calls on one's bill where it is necessary to demonstrate that a provider charges in accordance with its pricing information.


Sorry Dave I think I am missing something here "which numbers are you refering to" please excuse my ignorance if I have totally missed the point
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idb
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #173 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:49pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm:
Sounds like a good idea but the only problem is that most of the SAYNO members will not have accumulated a large outstanding bill because by our nature we avoid calling expensive numbers.
Indeed, but may be worth racking up a couple of pounds in calls and then put it to the test. The guidelines and advice are clear, even to a lay person.

bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm:
Have we come to the end of the line with this or can anybody suggest the next productive move
I believe there is not much more that can be done. Parliamentary discussion yielded little, if any, progress. The judiciary is the only way forward that I can see. There has to be a reader of this forum who has a law degree and can advise whether legal options are suitable.
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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2012 at 7:08pm by idb »  

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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #174 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:50pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:45pm:
Dave wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:39pm:
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:35pm:
Sounds like a good idea but the only problem is that most of the SAYNO members will not have accumulated a large outstanding bill because by our nature we avoid calling expensive numbers.

Have we come to the end of the line with this or can anybody suggest the next productive move

People can make a test telephone call to one of these numbers in order to demonstrate that their provider charges in accordance with its published pricing information. I would not think that evidence would have to come in the form of many many calls on one's bill where it is necessary to demonstrate that a provider charges in accordance with its pricing information.


Sorry Dave I think I am missing something here "which numbers are you refering to" please excuse my ignorance if I have totally missed the point

I am referring to the numbers which we are saying are banned; those beginning 084.
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bazzerfewi
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #175 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:58pm
 
It goes against the grain but I could make a call to all surgeries within the Barnsley area and provide evidence that surgeries are still flouting the law when the bill is produced.

I could then produce the evidence to DAN JARVIS MP - surely then he would have to act on the case.

Maybe other members could do the same

What are your thoughts please
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idb
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #176 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:07pm
 
The relevant clause is...

29B.2.2. if the Contractor so considers, take all reasonable steps, including in particular considering the matters specified in sub-clause 29B.3, to ensure that, having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number.

I suggest that is a trivial matter to demonstrate that a call to a surgery's 0844 number from almost any given cellular tariff will cost more than a similar call to a geographic number. If so, the surgery is in violation of the DH guidelines. Furthermore, this provides what I, as a lay person, would assume to be prima facie evidence, sufficient to prove the facts before a court.
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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:08pm by idb »  

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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #177 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:12pm
 
idb wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:07pm:
The relevant clause is...

29B.2.2. if the Contractor so considers, take all reasonable steps, including in particular considering the matters specified in sub-clause 29B.3, to ensure that, having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number.

I suggest that is a trivial matter to demonstrate that a call to a surgery's 0844 number from almost any given cellular tariff will cost more than a similar call to a geographic number. If so, the surgery is in violation of the DH guidelines. Furthermore, this provides what I, as a lay person, would assume to be prima facie evidence, sufficient to prove the facts before a court.

Evidence is in the form of the pricing literature from call providers.

On the basis that we may have to go to the lengths of calling these numbers, it would seem that there are those who do not believe (or will not accept) that call providers charge in accordance to their published pricing information.
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idb
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #178 - Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:23pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:58pm:
It goes against the grain but I could make a call to all surgeries within the Barnsley area and provide evidence that surgeries are still flouting the law when the bill is produced.

I could then produce the evidence to DAN JARVIS MP - surely then he would have to act on the case.

Maybe other members could do the same

What are your thoughts please
I suggest that someone could call a 0844 surgery for a couple of minutes from a mobile service and then ask for a refund of the additional cost over the geographic rate. When the surgery refuses, which it almost certainly will, it could then (perhaps) be subject to legal action in a county court / small claims court or whatever is appropriate. It may cost twenty pounds or so to initiate a claim, but it means that the evidence would have to be considered by someone whose job it is to consider evidence and ignore BS, and unfortunately, BS is the name of this game when dealing with NEG. I managed, through the ASA, to force NEG to remove at least some of its advertising lies, without argument, from its web site.

I'm more than happy to donate a tenner or so to any fighting fund for a test case, and I'm sure other regulars would do the same.
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #179 - Apr 8th, 2012 at 12:03am
 
idb wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:03pm:
My own feeling is that the only way forward is to challenge this through the judicial system.
… also noting the subsequent comments.

It is a trivial matter to obtain the evidence to show that a call to a 084 number is more expensive for many than an equivalent call to a geographic number. If one is talking about legal action, then the question is about what action can be taken, by who against whom.

I offer a quick outline of the judicial position as I understand it.

Breach of contract by GPs


GPs using 084 numbers are in breach of the terms of their contracts with the PCT, as published here.
(This covers those with GMS contracts, those with PMS contracts are subject to identical requirements.)

The breach may be occurring in one of three ways:
  1. If the practice adopted a 084 number after 1 April 2010, it failed to properly satisfy itself about the cost of calling this number ("having regard to the arrangement as a whole"). It probably disregarded a significant number of callers.
     
  2. If it was using a 084 number on 1 April 2010, it failed to properly consider the cost of calling this number ("having regard to the arrangement as a whole"). It probably disregarded a significant number of callers.
     
  3. In the second case it may have completed the consideration of the costs properly, but failed to adequately consider the option of varying the terms of its contract (e.g. by arranging migration to a 03 number from the same provider) and failed to take a "reasonable step" open to it.

With regard to the third item, I have made a Freedom of Information request to cover any evidence of "unreasonable" charges being proposed for migration to 03. Not one PCT holds any such evidence.

If a PCT wishes to take action against a practice in breach of the terms of its contract, there is a procedure to be followed. I am not aware of any way that a third party (i.e. a patient) may themselves pursue enforcement of a contract between a practice and the PCT.

Breach of duty by a PCT


PCTs are under a statutory duty to enforce the terms of the GP contracts and in doing so to "have regard to the NHS Constitution". I believe that any PCT which fails to take appropriate action to enforce the terms of the GP contract is failing in that duty.

The only formal way in which legal action against a PCT could be instigated is through the process of "Judicial Review". This must be based on the damage caused to one or more specific individuals by the action of a public body.

The alternative


A better alternative, although not itself a legal action, is a complaint to the Health Service and Parliamentary Ombudsman. Complaints against a NHS contractor or body fall into the simpler process, which does not require the involvement of the complainants MP.

I am aware of two cases where such complaints are in process over this matter, with nothing positive to report at this stage.

Views on the strength of the requirements


The BMA claims to believe that GPs may take an assurance from an interested party as being adequate to discharge their duty to make a determination about call costs.

NEG claims to believe that a highly selective approach can be taken to making the call cost determination and guides its customers accordingly.

The DH is confident that the terms of the contract are enforceable and that the interpretation offered in its Further Guidance is a fair expression of how the issues would be judged by a court (if necessary).

It is for each PCT to determine whether or not to pursue an action against a GP. Many have stated the view that those using 084 numbers are not in breach. Others have determined that if they have obtained an assurance that existing contracts will not be renewed then they have taken adequate action.

My position


I believe that all those who use 084 numbers are in breach of their contracts and that this undermines a vital principle of the NHS - that it is funded by us through our taxation, not through charges imposed as we access NHS services. Because of the importance of that principle, especially in the light of current reforms, it is vital that no tolerance of its abuse be shown.

I am keen to support anyone who wishes to pursue an effective complaint to the Health Service Ombudsman. This could be against a particular practice, but it would have a wider impact if against a PCT.

Likewise, if anyone can find a lawyer willing and able to undertake a JR case against the Chief Executive of a Cluster of PCTs on a pro bono basis.

Contributions from other interested parties may be helpful, but I firmly believe that any action must originate from one or more patients who continue to incur unacceptable charges for contacting their GP. This may not be strictly necessary under the law, but it will make a successful outcome far more likely.
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