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Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls? (Read 139,554 times)
catj
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #15 - Aug 7th, 2011 at 9:59pm
 
Looks like one for Watchdog, Trading Standards, and the Office of Fair Trading, and a complaint to Ofcom, the appropriate minister and your local MP.
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bazzerfewi
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #16 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:25am
 
Hi what do you mean "Reverse engineer calls" do you mean charge the customer for the call?
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rfctabs
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #17 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 8:58am
 
Yes.

Perhaps "Reverse Lookup" would have been a better term. I called an 0121 number, but VM have cross-referenced that to the 0845 number and then charged me for calling 0845 even though I never dialled it.

The info must be in the telephone system somewhere because when the 0845 is activated the owner will simply divert it to a geographic number.

So far I've only seem this with one of my local Tesco numbers. Not been an issue on other numbers or on O2 with my mobile.
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bbb_uk
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #18 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 1:46pm
 
As far as i'm aware, OCPs are not routinely aware of the underlying geographical to a NGN number.  If they were at the time a call is made to a NGN then they would convert it to the underlying geographical number and route it geograhpically which is cheaper than via the NGN route.

Eg:

Geographical called:  Joe Bloggs rings Company A on their 0161... number.  The OCP (originating call provider - Virgin in this case) routes the call via their own network where possible right upto the Manchester exchange and the call is then passed over to the telephone provider of Company A (in this example let's say BT).  As the call is kept on Virgin network for as long as possible then costs are kept to a minimum.

NGN (084x, etc numbers): Joe Bloggs rings Company B on their 0845 number even though they are based in Manchester.  Virgin, the OCP, would look-up the company that owns the 0845 number (we'll use BT again as an example) and then passes the call over to them where BT then look-up their own database and route the call to Company B on their 0161 geographical number.  As Virgin have had to pass the call to BT almost straight away then Virgin now have to pay extra charges for calls passed to BT.

If a telecoms provider like Virgin actually knew the geographical number of Company B themselves then Virgin could have routed the call to Company B using their own network to save costs bypassing the telecoms provider of the 0845 number.

The only time telecoms provider may know the geographical behind a 0845 right from the beginning is if the 0845 belongs to the same telecoms provider as where the call originated.  For example, Virgin originated the call and the 0845 number belongs to them so they knew the underlying geographical number.


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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #19 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 1:59pm
 
Thanks bbb_uk - that's really interesting. It would infer that the 0845 number concerned is owned by VM.

But my next question is: "Can they legitimately charge me for ringing an 0845 when I actually dialled 0121?". I don't like the sound of that if they can...
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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:00pm by rfctabs »  
 
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #20 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:06pm
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 1:59pm:
Thanks bbb_uk - that's really interesting. It would infer that the 0845 number concerned is owned by VM.

I believe that Tesco's provider is Cable & Wireless:

http://www.itpro.co.uk/201609/tesco-signs-cable-wireless-in-100-million-it-deal

My belief has been re-enforced because Ipswich's branches have moved from BT allocated 01473 numbers to C&W ones.
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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:12pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #21 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:12pm
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 1:59pm:
But my next question is: "Can they legitimately charge me for ringing an 0845 when I actually dialled 0121?". I don't like the sound of that if they can...

I too do not like the sound of it if they can.

However, what must come first is the publication of the relevant call charges for these 'special' 01/02 numbers. Once that happens (assuming that it hasn't already), then it is clear to see and we can have a proper debate and this is much the same as with users of 084 numbers who frequently don't acknowledge the benefit they get from their use.

Returning to the subject of premium 01/02 numbers, in some cases such as dial-up ISP numbers, providers (I know BT does) charges 01/02 numbers at a premium which is understandable to disincentivise their use.
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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:19pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #22 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 3:58pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 2:12pm:
rfctabs wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 1:59pm:
But my next question is: "Can they legitimately charge me for ringing an 0845 when I actually dialled 0121?". I don't like the sound of that if they can...

I too do not like the sound of it if they can
Same here.

As I don't believe VM have access to a central database of NGNs and their underlying geographicals then one other question is where are they getting the information from?  One guess would be SayNo as we know telecom companies are, well the larger ones, aware of this site and have in the past encouraged their customers who moan about the cost of NGNs to lookup alternatives here.

I know VM and some of the larger telecom providers often look for unusually high call volumes to 01/02 numbers and then would dig deeper to see what/why, etc.  However, in this specific case, there wouldn't be an unusually high call volume to Tesco's geographical that would ring red flags with VM.

Quote:
However, what must come first is the publication of the relevant call charges for these 'special' 01/02 numbers. Once that happens (assuming that it hasn't already), then it is clear to see and we can have a proper debate and this is much the same as with users of 084 numbers who frequently don't acknowledge the benefit they get from their use.

Returning to the subject of premium 01/02 numbers, in some cases such as dial-up ISP numbers, providers (I know BT does) charges 01/02 numbers at a premium which is understandable to disincentivise their use.


In my opinion, if VM (or any other OCP), wants to have different tariffs for 'special' 01/02 numbers then at the very least they have to make their customers aware and would have to publish a list of these 'special' numbers.

Without VM mentioning and therefore excluding such 'special' numbers then VM can't charge you anything but a geographical rate as it would be classed as incorrect billing on behalf of VM.  You have dialled a geographical number so you should get charged a geographical rate (or included) depending on tariff, etc.

As Dave points out, BT do charge different prices for dial-up ISP 01/02 numbers and I assume this is mentioned somewhere in the smallprint.  I'm sure it was many years ago but it may not be now because BT may not charge differently now due to lack of demand for dial-up.

As mentioned earlier, I would email Watchdog.

Could anyone else on VM confirm this so to ensure it's widespread rather than localised?

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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #23 - Aug 11th, 2011 at 4:33pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 3:58pm:
Could anyone else on VM confirm this so to ensure it's widespread rather than localised?

I have made arrangements with VM for a test call to be made shortly after 6.00 when my free call allowance begins. I have also given notice that any claim that I must have made a operator connected call would be the subject of a most serious argument. Furthermore, I will not accept a simple waiver of an improperly levied charge as an appropriate complete response.

Others may wish to do the same.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #24 - Aug 12th, 2011 at 10:59am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 4:33pm:
bbb_uk wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 3:58pm:
Could anyone else on VM confirm this so to ensure it's widespread rather than localised?

I have made arrangements with VM for a test call to be made shortly after 6.00 when my free call allowance begins. I have also given notice that any claim that I must have made a operator connected call would be the subject of a most serious argument. Furthermore, I will not accept a simple waiver of an improperly levied charge as an appropriate complete response.

Others may wish to do the same.

Update to the above posting.

I made the call as arranged, I also made another call - dialling the 0845 number.

The online record of un-billed charges shows only the call dialled to the 0845 number - correctly calculated as 22p (including VAT) for a 7 second call.

Charges will be recalculated when the actual bill is prepared in around 10 days time, so nothing has yet been proved. If others have seen the charge for the "operator connected" call on their list of un-billed charges however, then something is different.

I will report again when my bill is prepared.


P.S. I have spotted some mistakes in one of my previous postings. I correct them below:

1. I omitted a hyperlink to the Virgin media tariffs page

Quote:
This web page gives links to the currently published tariffs. (Those for "phone review" customers are the ones which offer inclusive 084 calls).

2. I also quoted VAT inclusive charges for comparison with the VAT exclusive amount shown on the unbilled charges. I now show the VAT exclusive amounts.

Quote:
Under the standard direct dial tariff a 1:14 call to a 0845 number would cost 11.24 9.367p + (2 x 10.22 8.517p) = £0.264 0.320, not £0.470.

The charges for operator connected calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers are quite perversely much cheaper than for calls to Geographic numbers (BT does nothing similar) - rather than a connection charge of £2.975 3.57, it is only £0.425 0.51!!! With 2 x 16 13.3p to add for a 1:14 call, this would however give a charge of £0.692 0.83, not £0.470.

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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:40am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #25 - Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:17am
 
I have definitely seen the 0845 on my unbilled calls as operator connected, but definitely dialled 0121. I should like to arrange a similar test. How did you arrange yours? Did you call customer services or do you have a contact in VM that helps you with this type of enquiry? Did you dial the same number as I mentioned in the opening post (0121 253 7500 instead of 0845 677 9624)?
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:21am by rfctabs »  
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #26 - Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:57am
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 12th, 2011 at 11:17am:
I have definitely seen the 0845 on my unbilled calls as operator connected, but definitely dialled 0121. I should like to arrange a similar test. How did you arrange yours? Did you call customer services or do you have a contact in VM that helps you with this type of enquiry? Did you dial the same number as I mentioned in the opening post (0121 253 7500 instead of 0845 677 9624)?

I simply contacted the customer services (billing) department. I asked them to confirm what charge they would expect to see for my dialled call to the 0121 number and informed them of what would arise if it were found that I were billed differently. With this conversation noted on the account prior to the call being made, it would be more difficult for them to simply state that I must have made an operator connected call.

It is possible that a different billing mechanism is being used for my account as VM may not have yet fully completed the amalgamation of the different systems which it inherited. It is also possible that the cause of the error previously encountered has quietly been removed (possible even just from this single number!).

I think it highly unlikely that someone was able to fix my account to prevent my attempt to expose this situation from being successful - I do however accept that some would think that giving warning invalidates my test.

With a similar experience having been reported on a different geo Tesco number, I cannot accept that there is nothing funny going on here. I am confident that what has been reported is illegitimate. We need help from volunteers to confirm the nature and extent of what it is, so that the necessary corrective action can be taken.

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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #27 - Aug 12th, 2011 at 6:34pm
 
Thanks SCV for that test.

rfctabs, I'd just wait until your inclusive minutes start (if relevant).  Maybe wait about 5 mins (eg 6.05pm) if they start say at 6pm to ensure VMs clock is clearly within the inclusive minutes time just in case your clock is different than VMs.

As SCV as stated it could be that they have fixed the problem but kept quiet about it.

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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #28 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:08pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 12th, 2011 at 10:59am:
Update to the above posting.

I made the call as arranged, I also made another call - dialling the 0845 number.

The online record of un-billed charges shows only the call dialled to the 0845 number - correctly calculated as 22p (including VAT) for a 7 second call.

Charges will be recalculated when the actual bill is prepared in around 10 days time, so nothing has yet been proved. If others have seen the charge for the "operator connected" call on their list of un-billed charges however, then something is different.

I will report again when my bill is prepared.

No need to wait, the magic is performed earlier!

Re-checking my un-billed charges an earlier item has appeared - Yes you guessed it:

Quote:
Operator Connected    08456 77 9624     32:22      £4.870

I am waiting for an explanation from Virgin Media.
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« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:10pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #29 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 8:59pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:08pm:
Quote:
Operator Connected    08456 77 9624     32:22      £4.870

I am waiting for an explanation from Virgin Media.

What is the 32:22?  Is that the length of the call - over 32mins?  I thought u only made a very quick call?
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« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2011 at 8:59pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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