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Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls? (Read 139,544 times)
catj
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #30 - Aug 16th, 2011 at 10:03pm
 
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But my next question is: "Can they legitimately charge me for ringing an 0845 when I actually dialled 0121?".

No. Not legal.

IANAL

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« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2011 at 10:04pm by catj »  
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #31 - Aug 17th, 2011 at 6:27pm
 
catj wrote on Aug 16th, 2011 at 10:03pm:
Quote:
But my next question is: "Can they legitimately charge me for ringing an 0845 when I actually dialled 0121?".

No. Not legal.
If VM made clear that calls to this specific number were excluded from inclusive minutes then they could possibly get away with it.

However, as far as i'm aware VM don't don't mention this so I'd agree that no they can't charge as if you dialled the 0845 when you actually dialled the 0121.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Cal
Reply #32 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 11:03am
 
bbb_uk wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 8:59pm:
What is the 32:22?  Is that the length of the call - over 32mins?  I thought u only made a very quick call?

I knew that making a call (of less than 1 hour) to a 0121 number within the period whilst calls to geographic numbers are "inclusive" would incur no proper charge. I asked the Tesco call centre agent about the matter and we got into a lengthy chat about telephone numbers.

I subsequently made a brief call dialled directly to the 0845 number, simply to confirm that this connected to the same call centre. I thought that a directly dialled 0845 call, charged at the distinct directly dialled rate, would sit well as part of the data. Having a chargeable call on my account would also let me know when charges for the day in question had been calculated to appear on my account.

The latter purpose was slightly frustrated as the earlier call (incorrectly charged) appeared on my account a day or more later.


As VM struggle to deal with this matter, it has been suggested to me by one of the call centre agents that the database of geo<->084 numbers could be that published by "SayNoTo0870".

I must therefore encourage everyone who calls otherwise unpublished geographic numbers from the SayNoTo0870 database through Virgin Media to check their bills very carefully.

It is possible that the scope of this exceptional billing exercise will be declared openly by VM, if they believe that it is justified. We cannot however rely on them taking this position.


It is quite interesting to be dealing with this matter on the day that Ofcom announces sizeable fines on Talk Talk and Tiscali for breaches of general conditions. The Ofcom statement points out that since 26 May 2011 a harsher penalty regime is in place for such breaches.

I believe that if the word "represents" in GC 11.1 may be fairly taken as a reference to GC 10.2 (d) (ii), as it surely must, then VM is shown to be in breach of the same General Condition as Talk Talk and Tiscali. (see General Conditions.)
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Dave
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #33 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:19pm
 
Members might be interested to note the recent posting on MoneySavingExpert:

Quote:
He told me it would appear that Tesco have started diverting their calls to 0845, quite possibly to generate revenue and it has happened to quite a few VM customers. He then stated there is nothing VM can do about it and I need to take it up with Tesco.


RikJ says that the person he spoke to at Virgin Media did not wish to put what he'd said in writing: that it was caused by Tesco.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #34 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 5:23pm
 
UPDATE !!

My case, which addresses the general issue, not just the particular test call I made, is now registered with the proper team at VM Head Office.

If anyone has a case to raise with VM and wishes to refer to mine (as another example of the issue fully covered by my case), please contact me and I will be happy to provide the relevant reference number.

A single case should be sufficient to establish the principle, however "the more the merrier".
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bbb_uk
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #35 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 7:31pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:19pm:
Members might be interested to note the recent posting on MoneySavingExpert:

Quote:
He told me it would appear that Tesco have started diverting their calls to 0845, quite possibly to generate revenue and it has happened to quite a few VM customers. He then stated there is nothing VM can do about it and I need to take it up with Tesco.


RikJ says that the person he spoke to at Virgin Media did not wish to put what he'd said in writing: that it was caused by Tesco.
Isn't that just a simple case of common misconception that the caller pays for all diverted to calls.
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #36 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 7:35pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 5:23pm:
UPDATE !!

My case, which addresses the general issue, not just the particular test call I made, is now registered with the proper team at VM Head Office.

If anyone has a case to raise with VM and wishes to refer to mine (as another example of the issue fully covered by my case), please contact me and I will be happy to provide the relevant reference number.

A single case should be sufficient to establish the principle, however "the more the merrier".
I'd still be inclined to mention this to Watchdog as I'll be surprised if you get to the bottom of it and VM admit they are purposely ignoring the number actually dialled (ie geo) and instead charging their own tariff without their customers being informed.

but let us know how you get on.
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Dave
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #37 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 7:37pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 7:31pm:
Dave wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:19pm:
Members might be interested to note the recent posting on MoneySavingExpert:

Quote:
He told me it would appear that Tesco have started diverting their calls to 0845, quite possibly to generate revenue and it has happened to quite a few VM customers. He then stated there is nothing VM can do about it and I need to take it up with Tesco.


RikJ says that the person he spoke to at Virgin Media did not wish to put what he'd said in writing: that it was caused by Tesco.
Isn't that just a simple case of common misconception that the caller pays for all diverted to calls.

These calls are apparently being itemised as "Operator Connected" which means that the operator connected them which we are lead to believe that they didn't.
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #38 - Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:10pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 7:37pm:
These calls are apparently being itemised as "Operator Connected" which means that the operator connected them which we are lead to believe that they didn't.
I think I lost you  Smiley

What I meant to say is that VMs response is one of the normal the caller pays for any diverted call rather than the callee.

To the best of my knowledge, VM are not aware of any diversion taking place as they will only terminate the call in the local area so are unable to realise that in fact a call is being diverted.  This is why the person/company being called is charged for any calls they automatically divert and not the caller.

I'm edging towards whether VM do have a copy of SayNo's database.

If this is true then this could be tested by someone on VM doing another test call to a geographical that appears in SayNo's database (and has done at around the same time as Tesco's geo was added - in case VM have an old copy of the database).

Do we know if this happens to all Tesco alternative numbers or just this specific one or specific few?

UPDATE:

According to the database, 02086863313 for DirectLine switchboard was added prior to Tesco's alternative number.

Can I ask if one person with VM wishes to do a test call to this geographical and note the date/time and see if a "operator connected" appears
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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2011 at 10:22pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #39 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:36am
 
My understanding of diverted call charges is that the originating caller (C) pays to call person 'X' on number 'N1', but if X has diverted their calls to number 'N2', then X pays to call N2 from N1. It would be quite iniquitious for C to have to pay to call N2 when they have no control over what N2 might be and indeed may not even know that N1 has been diverted to N2 by X (technically in the above scenario Tesco should be paying 0845 rates to call themselves from one of their own landlines.  Grin ).

This is how it works when my mother diverts her BT line to my VM line when she comes to stay, and also how it works when I divert my O2 mobile to my O2 car phone. Is there any other way that call diverts can be configured such that VM have no control over the charging process or does the fact that VM users are being charged at 0845 rates imply some connivance between Tesco and VM? Is there any other way that call diverts can be set up such that VM may not be culpable? Can Tesco configure their system to broadcast to the wider telephony network that 0121 xxx xxxx is actually 0845 xxx xxxx? And if so, why does it appear to be only VM customers that are affected?
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #40 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:46am
 
But these are listed as being Operator Connected calls. So where was the Operator in all this?

If you refer to Virgin Media Call Costs and download the Operator and reverse charge rates document, it gives these rates...under the heading "Direct Dialled Call Charges".  Roll Eyes
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #41 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 6:31pm
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:36am:
My understanding of diverted call charges is that the originating caller (C) pays to call person 'X' on number 'N1', but if X has diverted their calls to number 'N2', then X pays to call N2 from N1....
That is true as far as I'm aware.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #42 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 8:08pm
 
In conversation with me, VM representatives have been stout in suggesting that there are circumstances in which it is proper for VM to charge for a directly dialled call to a geographic number as if it were an "operator connected" call to a non-geographic number.

Whether or not this is true, I have not yet heard any justification for withholding the relevant information from the published price guides.


There is little point in me making further test calls whilst my case is progressing. My case is, as I declared to VM before making the test call, intended to completely flush out the practice of charging for calls other than as dialled. My test call has been sufficient to show that the practice exists.


In looking for other cases, we may need to focus on a particular, and unusual, characteristic of the Tesco situation.

Commonly, calls to a non-geographic number will be routed over the PSTN (using a geographic number) to a local termination point. The geographic number, local to the point of termination, may be found and published on SayNoTo0870. Calls may however be routed by their destination by other means, e.g. VOIP or a private circuit.

In the Tesco case, calls to the 0121 number (and presumably others) are routed to a national call centre in Dundee. This could be through the intelligent switch on the 0845 number, thereby supporting the claim by VM that my call was "automatically redirected" to the 0845 number. I wonder if there is some particular process, which I will refer to as "automatic redirection", in play here.

The idea of "automatic redirection" also appears to fit with the fact that the 0121 number is still seen in some old telephone directory listings for the store - suggesting that Tesco changed over from local numbers to the 0845 numbers it currently publishes for its stores. This "automatic redirection" (something quite different from the routing that happens on non-geographic numbers) could be the method used by Tesco to collect calls dialled to the old numbers. It could be that this particular process feeds back to the VM billing system.

Whatever fancy technical routing arrangements are in place does nothing to provide any justification for a charge other than that advised in the published price guide. There must however be some logic somewhere behind this systemic mis-charging, or failure to openly declare terms of service. If there is some process such as that which I have described then it would provide a more satisfactory explanation than a deliberate attempt to undermine SayNoTo0870.


This is however pure speculation on my part and an explanation is not the same as a justification. Systemic failure to bill in accordance with the published Price Guide must be regarded as a breach of the Ofcom-imposed General Conditions, even if the future remedy is a revision to the Price Guide.


If we are keen to discover the extent of this practice, in advance of advice from VM, then these comments may be of assistance.

I repeat my offer for further complaints to VM about similar occurrences to be associated with the general complaint submitted by myself. It may be of benefit to link instances together with VM, before the issue is forwarded to Ofcom.
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Heinz
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #43 - Aug 19th, 2011 at 11:50pm
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:36am:
My understanding of diverted call charges is that the originating caller (C) pays to call person 'X' on number 'N1', but if X has diverted their calls to number 'N2', then X pays to call N2 from N1.

That is what happens when I use BT's Call  Diversion facility to divert calls incoming to my BT landline to my mobile (the call is diverted via my CPS calls provider and I pick up the cost of that 'part' of the call).
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After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Can Phone Companies Reverse Engineer 01/02 Calls?
Reply #44 - Aug 20th, 2011 at 12:59am
 
rfctabs wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:36am:
My understanding of diverted call charges is that the originating caller (C) pays to call person 'X' on number 'N1', but if X has diverted their calls to number 'N2', then X pays to call N2 from N1.

I quote from the Virgin Media Price Guide - p3 of this document - with reference to the "Call Divert" Calling feature:-

Quote:
The caller is charged only for the call to the dialled number at normal rates. You will be charged for the diverted part of the call from when the call is answered.


Whatever is happening in this case has nothing whatsoever to do with this Calling Feature.
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