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Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles (Read 61,358 times)
Dave
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #30 - Apr 10th, 2012 at 2:48pm
 
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 10th, 2012 at 2:41pm:
the situation is so bad that virgin media now actually charge more for 0845 than 0870.

Hello and welcome to SayNoTo0870.

On 1st August 2009 the regulations with respect to 0870 numbers changed. The service charge or benefit to the receivers (or number users) was removed thereby meaning that call providers no longer incurred an additional charge in connecting calls over that of 01, 02 and 03 numbers. What wasn't put in place though was a rule to ensure that call providers brought their 0870 prices into line with 01, 02 and 03 (making them inclusive where applicable).

Virgin Media is one of the later landline providers to reduce the cost of calling 0870 numbers and include them in packages.

There is a service charge associated with 0845, albeit a modest few pence per minute, so one would expect in general for telephone companies to pass this cost back to their customers (the callers).
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bazzerfewi
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #31 - Apr 13th, 2012 at 7:34pm
 
The industry is moving towards including 0845 etc within inclusive call packages as Virgin now includes 0845 etc within their business call unlimited plans
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ihate0845
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #32 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 2:54am
 
isnt 0845 primarily used by consumers ringing up companies?

I cant see 0845 been inclusive on residential packages for a long time unless its either forced by regulation or companies stop using the number. They will all lose too much revenue.
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« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012 at 2:55am by ihate0845 »  
 
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kasg
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #33 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 3:58pm
 
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 2:54am:
I cant see 0845 been inclusive on residential packages for a long time unless its either forced by regulation or companies stop using the number. They will all lose too much revenue.

0845 already is inclusive on many residential packages, e.g. BT, Plusnet, no doubt others.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #34 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 4:26pm
 
The inclusion of 0845 numbers in residential packages is a perverse glitch brought about by BT wrongly second guessing Ofcom's intentions in 2010.

BT assumed that Ofcom would be dealing with 0845 in the same way as it had then set in place for 0870 - i.e. removing revenue sharing. BT anticipated the change to 0870 by 7 months, taking a revenue hit in the process. It was able to gamble on the same thing happening (perhaps within a year or so) with 0845. BT terminates a high proportion of 0845 calls itself and, due to the regulation which applies to it alone, suffers little loss of revenue on passing 0845 calls to other operators without charging callers.

Some of those who compete directly with BT on call cost have chosen to follow this move, as they also tend to mirror BT's perversely low prices for non-inclusive 0845 calls. This has nothing to do with fairness, it is simply about marketing.


BT's guess about Ofcom is now seen to have been wrong. Ofcom has now clearly decided that 03 is going to be the only range of numbers tied to geographic call rates - the restriction on 0870 will be lifted, now that the plan to close the range has been dropped.

We have yet to see what BT will do when the special regulation on it is removed and (assuming that Ofcom's plans for the unbundled tariff go ahead) 0845 calls have to be charged with a "Service Charge" included. Perhaps in theory BT could retain the staus quo by having a negative "Access Charge" for inclusive 0845 calls and a zero "Access Charge" for non-incusive 0845 calls. This would however cut across the idea of having a single "Access Charge" and BT is unlikely to voluntarily deny itself the right to levy an "Access Charge" having threatened legal action in order to get the present regulations, which prohibit this lifted.


I am sorry that this complex issue cannot be presented more simply. What has to be remembered is that where revenue sharing calls are covered by packages all subscribers are paying the recipients of these calls whether or not they call them. All things being equal, package prices would be much lower if these calls were not included.

I believe that if call recipients are to benefit from subsidy at the expense of callers then this must be declared and only paid by those who call them. This means that I have to see the inclusion of 0845 calls in packages as a bad thing, as a point of principle. It is also dangerous because it adds to the confusion about 084 calls in general.
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kasg
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #35 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 5:16pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 4:26pm:
I believe that if call recipients are to benefit from subsidy at the expense of callers then this must be declared and only paid by those who call them. This means that I have to see the inclusion of 0845 calls in packages as a bad thing, as a point of principle. It is also dangerous because it adds to the confusion about 084 calls in general.

It is hard to argue with this in principle; in practice I was very glad to be able to call an 0845 number yesterday evening without charge, as I was unable (and not terribly motivated, given the lack of charge from my Plusnet landline) to find a viable alternative!
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« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012 at 5:18pm by kasg »  
 
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Dave
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #36 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 6:29pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 4:26pm:
I believe that if call recipients are to benefit from subsidy at the expense of callers then this must be declared and only paid by those who call them. This means that I have to see the inclusion of 0845 calls in packages as a bad thing, as a point of principle. It is also dangerous because it adds to the confusion about 084 calls in general.

I agree that the subsidy (or "Service Charge" which is the official Ofcom-proposed term) cannot ever form part of inclusive bundles. This has the potential to cause confusion, as Service Providers (e.g. banks) will be giving the message that calls incur a Service Charge of, say 5 pence per minute. Clearly this won't be so for those where the charges are inclusive! It also has the affect that all customers of call providers that do include these charges pay for them.

But what about the inclusion of Access Charges in packages? Call providers will have the freedom to set Access Charges as they see fit, in much the same way that they can set the charge rates of any call.  Huh

It is very common (and readily understood) for non-premium calls to be covered by inclusive bundles or inclusive packages. But the unbundled tariff with Access Charge and Service Charge concept is new, so the potential of a advising that an Access Charge will be levied when it may not be does have the potential to cause confusion.

Whilst a prohibitation of Access Charges being inclusive would have the advantage of avoiding the potential for such confusion, the downside would be a degree restriction on the proposition that call providers can offer.

I have not decided where I stand on this one. Have I missed something?

Another possibility is that inclusive Access Charges be prohibited with a view to keeping it under review and at some point possibly allowing them to be inclusive.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #37 - Apr 14th, 2012 at 8:59pm
 
kasg wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 5:16pm:
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 4:26pm:
I believe that if call recipients are to benefit from subsidy at the expense of callers then this must be declared and only paid by those who call them. This means that I have to see the inclusion of 0845 calls in packages as a bad thing, as a point of principle. It is also dangerous because it adds to the confusion about 084 calls in general.

It is hard to argue with this in principle; in practice I was very glad to be able to call an 0845 number yesterday evening without charge, as I was unable (and not terribly motivated, given the lack of charge from my Plusnet landline) to find a viable alternative!

I myself feel a little uncomfortable making inclusive calls to 0845 numbers, under the terms of my BT Unlimited Anytime package. I re-assure myself by knowing that the package would be cheaper if these were not included.

Dave wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 6:29pm:

Another possibility is that inclusive Access Charges be prohibited with a view to keeping it under review and at some point possibly allowing them to be inclusive.

I see no good reason why "Access Charges" should not be inclusive or bundled.

I have not yet checked to see what view Ofcom takes.

It will also be interesting to know how the Telcos see this. If they want to do it, I cannot see any very good reason for Ofcom standing against it.
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #38 - Apr 19th, 2012 at 3:34pm
 
kasg wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 3:58pm:
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 2:54am:
I cant see 0845 been inclusive on residential packages for a long time unless its either forced by regulation or companies stop using the number. They will all lose too much revenue.

0845 already is inclusive on many residential packages, e.g. BT, Plusnet, no doubt others.


BT own plusnet so I wouldnt assume others have also done it.  Certianly I cant think of any providers who treat 0845 as inclusive.
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #39 - Apr 19th, 2012 at 3:48pm
 
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 19th, 2012 at 3:34pm:
kasg wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 3:58pm:
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 14th, 2012 at 2:54am:
I cant see 0845 been inclusive on residential packages for a long time unless its either forced by regulation or companies stop using the number. They will all lose too much revenue.

0845 already is inclusive on many residential packages, e.g. BT, Plusnet, no doubt others.


BT own plusnet so I wouldnt assume others have also done it. Certianly I cant think of any providers who treat 0845 as inclusive.



T mobile  do.   See here

http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1330660098/5
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ihate0845
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #40 - Apr 19th, 2012 at 3:57pm
 
trust you to find one Smiley

isnt t-mobile got some relation to BT as well?
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #41 - Apr 20th, 2012 at 6:47am
 
ihate0845 wrote on Apr 19th, 2012 at 3:34pm:
Certianly I cant think of any providers who treat 0845 as inclusive.


Post Office phones do. See para at bottom of this page: http://www.postoffice.co.uk/broadband-phone/home-phone-broadband/home-phone/pric...
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #42 - Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:43am
 
There are a fair few that do include 0845 in landline residential deals . EG :

http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/phone/

http://www.thephone.coop/residential/packages

http://www.madasafish.com/talk/

http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/phone/

https://home.auracall.com/rLinesCalls-en.aspx?prod=opt4

and i believe utilitywarehouse has just added them back to there packages.
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« Last Edit: Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:01am by bigjohn »  

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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #43 - Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:07am
 
bigjohn wrote on Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:43am:
There are a fair few that do include 0845 in landline residential deals . EG :

We must understand that this is nothing more than a competitive reaction to what BT is readily able to do because of the effects of the regulation that is currently in force.

This regulation will be removed and the whole system blown apart by the changes which Ofcom is currently proposing. We must see this as a temporary blip. It is even worse for users of 0845 numbers to be subsidised by all package subscribers, rather than just those who call them.
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Re: Free 0800 0808 numbers for mobiles
Reply #44 - Apr 21st, 2012 at 10:17am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 20th, 2012 at 11:07am:
bigjohn wrote on Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:43am:
There are a fair few that do include 0845 in landline residential deals . EG :

We must understand that this is nothing more than a competitive reaction to what BT is readily able to do because of the effects of the regulation that is currently in force.

This regulation will be removed and the whole system blown apart by the changes which Ofcom is currently proposing. We must see this as a temporary blip. It is even worse for users of 0845 numbers to be subsidised by all package subscribers, rather than just those who call them.


where do I see the changes ofcom are proposing?

and it sounds like you prefer callers of 0845 to pay more rather than the cost spread out across more people. I already find 0845 calls extortionate.

Ok I think I found the porposals to me they seem a joke.

If I understand right ofcom is proposing its ok to charge an arm and a leg for a call as long as you tell the person first at the start of the call, oh dear.

I sent a long email to them just now asking why they so soft and care so much for not damaging profits.
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« Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2012 at 10:45am by ihate0845 »  
 
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