Just watched the news. The appeal for help for the areas hit by this awful earthquake quoted an 0870 number, I'm disgusted. Somebody wants to make money out of even this.

Since the 7 July  London tube disaster it looked like public bodies were at last beginning to grasp the importance of providing a geographic number, and that thanks largely to the tireless work of some members of this forum,   but sadly not yet the Disasters Emergency Committee it seems...   There website does have an alternative number, but only for office hours, but that's not much use when the number being broadcast to the nation is that so beloved of Network Operators.

Saw it as well and my immediate reaction was of despair and 'oh not again'.

At least the profit  they make on the call will hopefully be going to the disaster or lowering the cost of their admin of rasing the funds. I wonder if the provider is contributing their profit on this number to the disaster - I hope so.

I wonder if the money they gain from using the 0870 number outweighs lost income from those that either can't use an 0870 number or won't because of the cost or out of principle. Hopefully it won't stop people, but if they have to hang to be answered I suspect it will.

The DEC sold-out to BT a long time ago and blindly uses 0870 as it cannot comprehend the dislike for these numbers as they are only 'national rate'. People have tried, and failed, to knock some common sense into these moronic organizations.

The most offensive aspect, at least to me, about the use of 0870 in these circumstances is not the actual revenue payment derived from 0870 (which is probably refunded by BT anyway) but all the extra revenue generated to other networks that charge forty or so pence per minute for such calls. Where will this revenue end up? Shareholders and fat-cat CEOs of course.

Why can't the DEC learn from other experiences? It is just a clueless organization when it comes to telephony and what the public wants.

Shoddy and pathetic and symptomatic of everything that is wrong in the United Kingdom.

 So glad you see things the same way I do. I'm a shareholder in several companies(in a very modest way) but I still would rather forgo extra profit for integrity. To profit from the misfortune of others is always wrong. I don't know who to contact to complain about this. I know I'm only one voice but a lot of "one voices" might make a difference. I admit I am a senior citizen who remembers when other people mattered and it wasn't a culture of "me,me, me". If anybody has any ideas please let me know. As an aside I have had my phone blocked to outgoing calls of 09.... Did you know you can do this Just look at the game channels on Sky. I don't get tempted myself. I'm just a bridge freak.

Have we tried telling these NGO870s that were not going to give them any donations while they persist in wasting our money on the Phone call to do so.

Meanwhile we'll support charitable channels that maximise the use of our contibutions, for the benefit of the cause.

It is possible:-
Interestingly I notice eg. CAFOD has both a FreeFone
0500 858885 and a better altho'. less prominent  Geographical Nr. 00 44 20 7733 7900 on most pages of it's Web site.

Most interestingly tho', although it is a Member of the DEC it's Web site doesn't direct me to DEC or their wasteful  0870 number, as most other DEC member charities tend to.

Last night and today I saw news progs and an 020 number given out , can't remember the rest of it but I thought then that they had taken notice,maybe someone else got the number and can put it on here.

I also noticed an 0800 number for donations on Teletext, but again I cannot now find it.

www.dec.org.uk says, about how one might donate:
"By donating online
By calling the Appeal line: 0870 60 60 900
By post (cheques or postal orders only)  P O Box 999, London EC3A 3AA
Cheques made payable to DEC Niger Crisis
Via high Street Banks or Post Office Freepay 1848

All money is donated to the DEC with no charges" (my colour change).
Indeed?
If that were the case then 087 would be OK, but were I a shareholder of any telecoms company I might want to know who made the decision that this was an appropriate cause. It is, but where is the line drawn?
If the website announcement is correct, of course...

The statement about all money being donated to the DEC, just cannot be true, as it cann't include most of what the Mobile networks are charging us for making the calls, and not passing on to the terminating operator.


wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 2:44pm:

The most offensive aspect, at least to me, about the use of 0870 in these circumstances is not the actual revenue payment derived from 0870 (which is probably refunded by BT anyway) but all the extra revenue generated to other networks that charge forty or so pence per minute for such calls. Where will this revenue end up? Shareholders and fat-cat CEOs of course.

It's an NGO 0870 Bonanza for Mobile Operators from every Disaster, on the back of the Nations goodwill.

If you look in their FAQ section they still maintain that 0870 is charged at National Rate.

See http://www.dec.org.uk/index.cfm/asset_id,924/index.html      

Question No 13.!!!

I see it's now saying "... at a national rate...  "   in response to a suggestion that it is expensive.  At least that's beginning to acknowledge perhaps there IS more than one, but as we all know National Rate is now a meaningless expression being used to deceive the Nation

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 5:35pm:

I see it's now saying "... at a national rate...  "   in response to a suggestion that it is expensive.  At least that's beginning to acknowledge perhaps there IS more than one, but as we all know National Rate is now a meaningless expression being used to deceive the Nation

It (the DEC) will have been told to say this by its masters at British Telecommunications plc as this is the basis of the deceit. It is common to many (most?) UK businesses. One wonders if the people working for these companies and organizations ever actually look at their own phone bills and begin to use some common sense to realize that the calls are not national rate. The national rate myth has been around for ages and what has the UK regulator done? As usual, bugger all as it doesn't care.

If Gordon Brown can be so generous as to permit and actually facilitate a 28 % enhancement  on all charitable donations  through Gift Aid (tax relief), then why not legislate  for a universally free national Hotline for Emergency Fund raising.   (a bit like 999 is for  individual Emergencies).
 
Letting  Mobile Operators away with Charging for 'Freefone' ( 0800 / 0500 ) numbers is where it all started to go wrong.

  Do I feel  yet another new number range coming on, for Ofcom to consult on and administer ?

I personally get annoyed by the way this country is being run.  We keep being told that we live in a democracy but the reality is we elect one of 'them' and they then go off in their own direction and take no notice of the nation for the next 4 years, till the next election that is.

This seems off-topic, but I hope you see my point in the context of this whole scam.  OfCOM are there as a sort of token 'regulator' to give some sort of impression that the industry is regulated when the big boys know that OfCOM is ineffective and incompetent.  

As for mobile operators charging for free numbers, I don't see why OfCOM isn't replaced by a proper hardline organisation and they aren't given the power to order them to change their ways or just shut the company down at the touch of a button.  I'm sure this would sort out most of the problems we have in the industry at present.  Oh, but that would be too much of a dictatorship wouldn't it?  And we can't have that. ::)

Sorry to rant on but a recent series of local government actions has made me very bitter about the current state of our nation. >:(  

I agree entirely Smasher, and it does not even seem to matter which particular "name" of party is in power. They are all the same. As soon as they have been elected they appoint all their own cronies and feather their own nests. As the saying goes "Power corrupts" and this was never so true as it is today.

Due to the fact that all the heads of these Quangos like Ofwat, Ofgem, Ofcom etc. are appointed because they are cronies that is why we never get any proper regulation which takes the interests of the consumers (the members of the electorate) into account. I think the problem is that we never had a proper Revolution in this country. We had at least one significant Civil War, but that is not quite the same.

The offence of Treason is still on the statute book though, I understand, so why are none of these leaders ever accused with this, which is what most of them in reality commit, and brought into the Tower through the Traitor's Gate and dealt with accordingly?

To allow and condone by default this sort of exploitation of those suffering tragedy and disaster just demonstrates the true contempt of politicians towards those who elect them, as well as the fact that they have no real moral values or scruples. They see us all as pure cannon fodder.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 2:44pm:

The most offensive aspect, at least to me, about the use of 0870 in these circumstances is not the actual revenue payment derived from 0870 (which is probably refunded by BT anyway) but all the extra revenue generated to other networks that charge forty or so pence per minute for such calls. Where will this revenue end up? Shareholders and fat-cat CEOs of course.

Hey idb,   Who charges 40p/minute ?  

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 7:33pm:

Hey idb,   Who charges 40p/minute ?

To be honest, I don't know as I haven't lived in the UK for a while. However during the discussion that took place after the London explosions in July, I believe this figure was what some pre-paid (ie pay-as-you-go) cellular (mobile) phone providers charge for such calls. I guess looking at the providers' web sites, assuming the charges are visible, should provide the information. Other contributors to this forum may have better information regarding specific rates. My '40p/minute' was just supposition but I believe it isn't far from the truth!

Thanks idb.  
          Meanwhile, I've managed to find T-mobile on PAYG quoting 40p/min.   So it's true, altho.' that's just 10p/min above their top PAYG rate to normal numbers.    On Contracts they indicate 10p/min.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 7:00pm:

As for mobile operators charging for free numbers, I don't see why OfCOM isn't replaced by a proper hardline organisation and they aren't given the power to order them to change their ways or just shut the company down at the touch of a button.  I'm sure this would sort out most of the problems we have in the industry at present.  Oh, but that would be too much of a dictatorship wouldn't it?  And we can't have that. ::) >:(

This is slightly off topic but I guess Ofcom's defence is that there is competition in that for instance there is a mobile operator (Orange) who's 0800/0500 calls are free and who's 0870 calls can be part of inclusive minutes, though I guess the basic point is that its not clear to everyone when they choose their mobile operator....

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 1:56pm:

Just watched the news. The appeal for help for the areas hit by this awful earthquake quoted an 0870 number, I'm disgusted. Somebody wants to make money out of even this.

Surely it's not making money, but it's to cover the administrative costs of running a helpline??

It now seems widely understood that BT donate all their profits from providing the telephone service to the DEC appeal.   After the Tsunami appeal this is reported as being a 6 figure sum.

What's not generally appreciated is, with the maximum transfer charge to the terminating phone company for delivering 0870 calls being ~ 5p/min and with originating phone companies charging their customers up to 40p/min for these calls, the 6 figure sum donated by BT may represent a 7 figure profiit being retained by the rest of the telephone industry and generated purely by the British publics response to the DEC appeal.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 12:18am:

Surely it's not making money, but it's to cover the administrative costs of running a helpline??

When people set up a phone helpline they should not expect to have its administrative costs paid by callers through a hidden charge most callers are unaware of because BT and other cynics in the telecoms companies are still misselling 0870 as being a national rate call.

They should cover these operational costs themselves and not try to recoup them as a further additional donation from those calling.  If they want a donation from those calling towards their costs from the phone call they should be up front about it and use an 09 number which everyone knows is not a BT national rate call.

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 12:08am:

This is slightly off topic but I guess Ofcom's defence is that there is competition in that for instance there is a mobile operator (Orange) who's 0800/0500 calls are free and who's 0870 calls can be part of inclusive minutes, though I guess the basic point is that its not clear to everyone when they choose their mobile operator....

Orange are going to start charging for calls to 0800 numbers from contract phones from the 1/12/05,and they do not include calls to 0870 or other NGN in their inclusive minutes.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 12:49am:

Orange are going to start charging for calls to 0800 numbers from contract phones from the 1/12/05,and they do not include calls to 0870 or other NGN in their inclusive minutes.

Are you sure?  Mobile Phone shop salesmen have been telling me Orange is about to start charging for 0800 calls on their contract phones for several years now and it has continuously not come to pass.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 6:05am:

Are you sure?

Yes starts on 1/12/05. Calls to 0500/0800/0808 on Orange Contract Phones will be charged at 10p a minute.Customers will be advised on next bill.I have discussed this in some depth with Orange on more then one occassion.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 8:56am:

Yes starts on 1/12/05. Calls to 0500/0800/0808 on Orange Contract Phones will be charged at 10p a minute.Customers will be advised on next bill.I have discussed this in some depth with Orange on more then one occassion.

So how come you know about it already if customers have not yet been advised?

What reasons are they stating for making the change?  Presumably customer abuse in using it to call 1899 etc and avoiding making chargeable calls with Orange?

Still with the cost of mobile calls having fallen so much it seems stupid to make the change now when the amount of money they will lose through this will  be less than it was in the past?

Stumbled across this info ;D

Reason given to bring themselves in line with other providers.!!!!

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 7:33pm:

Hey idb,   Who charges 40p/minute?

Most mobile networks charge a set fee of around 35ppm but unlike geographical calls they do not go down after the first 3mins to a lower rate - generally about 5ppm, or in the case of t-mobile, may not go down after you have spent £10 with them like geographical calls do.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 11:03am:

Most mobile networks charge a set fee of around 35ppm but unlike geographical calls they do not go down after the first 3mins to a lower rate - generally about 5ppm, or in the case of t-mobile, may not go down after you have spent £10 with them like geographical calls do.

There is no excuse for charging 0800s this way when the called party pays the cost of the call.  The worst that should happen for 0800 is them being charged in the same way as geographic calls.

The mobile phone companies are behaving in a shameless cartel like way over NGNs that are nothing to do with their real costs.  The real extra costs for 0845 and 0870 are the revenue share but on 0800 they face no equivalent revenue share costs.  So the worst that should happen is that they charge them as per a geographic phone call.

If Ocom weren't so totally in the pockets of the telcos they would do something about this scandal.

wrote on Oct 17^th, 2005 at 11:13am:

There is no excuse for charging 0800s this way...

NGM, I think you will find that this wasn't in response to the pricing of 0800 numbers, but of 0800 numbers.

There is a long thread on MSE about Orange charging for freephone numbers, but I don't suppose you venture in there.  ::)

If you wish to discuss Orange charging for freephone calls, post on this thread, as we are going off-topic here.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 9:43pm:

I agree entirely Smasher, and it does not even seem to matter which particular "name" of party is in power. They are all the same. As soon as they have been elected they appoint all their own cronies and feather their own nests. As the saying goes "Power corrupts" and this was never so true as it is today. Due to the fact that all the heads of these Quangos like Ofwat, Ofgem, Ofcom etc. are appointed because they are cronies that is why we never get any proper regulation which takes the interests of the consumers (the members of the electorate) into account. I think the problem is that we never had a proper Revolution in this country. We had at least one significant Civil War, but that is not quite the same.

Just noticed this index of corruption ww1.transparency.org   on the news today which shows what a wonderfully uncorrupt society we live in...

Of course  what it doesn't show is complacency, which may be a dominant factor in allowing corruption to flourish in more developed countries.  Isn't Politics about managing such perceptions.