Just when we thought that the true "local rate" call was long since dead TalkTalk have chosen to revive it by making 01/02 calls to "local numbers" of up to 60 minutes free for all their customers at all times.

See www.easier.com/view/Finance/Household_Bills/Home_Phone/article-247903.html

This doesn't seem to be properly explained in the publicity I have seen but I assume it is calls to 01/02 numbers on the same exchange code as the subscriber.  I can't see how it can include 03 numbers as they are not domiciled on a geographic telephone exchange.

Distinguishing the cost of calls on your local exchange as being cheaper in the weekday daytime, when there is no underlying lower call cost for TalkTalk in carrying it, and when so many numbers dialled in the weekday daytime start 084/7, and hence are excluded, seems like a pretty cynical move.  No doubt TalkTalk have only done it because they have calculated it won't cost them much money in the real world.

On the plus side it suddenly makes our arguments against people like NHS GP doctors, local councils and local police forces, who use 084 a great deal easier to win as suddenly 01/02 local calls will cost nothing for TalkTalk customers but cost up to 5p per minute when calling an 084 number......................

It also means that for TalkTalk customers at least an 01/02 number will be "local rate" but an 03 number will not be.....

Perhaps this thread will help explain what is "local" - http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16629

Oh, and reading through that thread, it looks like they are going to help stoke the "0207 and 0208 are separate area codes" problem!


Quote:

However the online version states:- Quote: "TalkTalk customers can now call anyone in London for FREE! You can now call all of these dialing codes for FREE: 0200, 0201, 0207, 0208, 0203, 01322, 01372, 01689, 01707, 01708, 01727, 01737, 01753, 01784, 01883, 01895, 01923, 01932, 01959, 01992"

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214264&postcount=32

Their list of codes that are local to your local exchange at www.talktalk.co.uk/pricing/uk is woefully inadequate and incomplete.  It doesn't show Leatherhead, Dorking, Slough (a very large exchange) or Farnham Common (same exchange code but different two digit prefix code after 01753) as just a few of the phone exchanges I am interested in.

London 01 used to be local to Farnham Common in BT's local area code days and the Farnham Common exchange is TalkTalk LLU enabled.  Hence why it is a pretty relevant question as my relative there makes a lot of daytime calls to the London 020 area (but are not currently with TalkTalk).

This is another typical TalkTalk major launch cockup with the marketing tail completely wagging the whole corporate dog and not caring at all about any of the apparently boring but in reality absolutely crucial technical details for this kind of offer.  Still if their marketing people weren't complete and utter morons they wouldn't have considered trying to bring back the "local call" in 2009.  The sales guy I spoke to there (reasonably intelligent for a change by TalkTalk standards as he had apparently been made redundant from some IT Consultant job or other) said 0845 calls were now to be included in the free daytime calls package but that 0870 and 03 were not.  If they include 0845 then how can they not also cover 03 calls, given how many local organisations (Police and Councils etc) are now beginning to use them.  But this of course is why their whole local calls offer is completely and utterly mad.

All of this chaos is the end consequence of Ofcom's cretinosity in failing to establish a National Telephone Number Plan that anyone can understand or make any sense of in terms of which calls are charged at which rates.  Not to mention mobile phone users not knowing if an 0800 call is free or not before they dial it or even after they have dialled it. :o >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

NGMsGhost wrote on May 3^rd, 2009 at 12:31pm:

It also means that for TalkTalk customers at least an 01/02 number will be "local rate" but an 03 number will not be.....

I do hope that this will not become commonplace across providers as it will mean people looking for alternatives to 03 numbers. I have always been of the belief that 03 numbers should be enforced as being no more than local rate on every tariff rather than geographical (or national) rate.

Dave wrote on May 3^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:

I do hope that this will not become commonplace across providers as it will mean people looking for alternatives to 03 numbers. I have always been of the belief that 03 numbers should be enforced as being no more than local rate on every tariff rather than geographical (or national) rate.

Indeed doesn't Ofcom's General Condition that introduced 03 numbers actually insist on this being so.  Including that they are included in any free call packages that cover 01/02 numbers.

I think if this is pointed out to Ofcom they may be able to force TalkTalk to include all 03 numbers in the "free local calls" allowance.  As there are still so few 03 numbers in existence I can't see how it would have a very major cost implication for TalkTalk.

Someone from BT reading this thread might like to lodge the appropriate complaint with Ofcom or the ASA about 03 numbers not being included in "local calls", seeing as how having them included will cost TalkTalk more money.  On the other hand I suppose inclusive 03 daytime calls on the base plan would give TalkTalk a further marketing edge over BT........................

The get out reqarding 01/02 equivalent pricing with 03 at all times is obviously that they also don't include 01/02 numbers outside your local exchanges area but if that is so then I can't see how they could include 0845 calls in the weekday daytime for free, because 0845 calls let you contact organisations based all over the UK.

TalkTalk are going to also have huge problems in the London area with the London 020 code call through numbers that then let you connect to geographic numbers all over the world for free unless they start blocking those numbers (perhaps they alreay have for all I know given the same problem exists in off peak periods).

What an exciting world we live in, when free competition is allowed.

The TalkTalk definition of "local" is found here.

The absence of distinct local rates was a key premise behind the regulation regarding charging for 03 numbers. The key phrases are "the rate to call a UK Geographic Number" and "inclusive minutes to UK Geographic Numbers".

I would suggest that the formal TalkTalk interpretation of these regulations be sought before raising the issue. If "local" calls are deemed to be to the "UK", then TalkTalk is open to public attack for this perverse interpretation of regulations as well as its role as the provider of most rip-off GP 0844 numbers. This is perhaps likely to be a more effective way of resolving the issue than inviting Ofcom to consider the possibility of facing a legal challenge over an attempt to enforce the regulation.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 1:07am:

I would suggest that the formal TalkTalk interpretation of these regulations be sought before raising the issue. If "local" calls are deemed to be to the "UK", then TalkTalk is open to public attack for this perverse interpretation of regulations as well as its role as the provider of most rip-off GP 0844 numbers. This is perhaps likely to be a more effective way of resolving the issue than inviting Ofcom to consider the possibility of facing a legal challenge over an attempt to enforce the regulation.

I suspect that when the potential regulatory difficulties of not including all 03 numbers in the "free local calls" deal is brought to the attention of the directors of TalkTalk that they will simply decide to include them in the "free local calls" deal as there are currently so comparatively few of these numbers and these calls.  The fact that 03 numbers are being used by some local Police forces and some local Councils will make the case rather overwhelming.

As both 0845 and 03 numbers can be subject to a "call plan" and terminate at more than one actual physical destination I see no likelihood at all that TalkTalk can attempt to take a decision about which 0845 and which 03 numbers are physically local to any particular local telephone exchange.

I think that the stipulation that 03 calls must be part of inclusive minutes where they otherwise apply is so that telcos don't exclude them.

From a regulatory point of view, I continue to be of the view that TalkTalk does not have to include 03 numbers in its inclusive local calls offering. That is not to say that they might not include them of their own free will.

Dave wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 8:38am:

I think that the stipulation that 03 calls must be part of inclusive minutes where they otherwise apply is so that telcos don't exclude them. From a regulatory point of view, I continue to be of the view that TalkTalk does not have to include 03 numbers in its inclusive local calls offering. That is not to say that they might not include them of their own free will.

But don't the regulations state that 03 calls must cost no more than 01/02 calls?    

I would think that this means that 03 must cost no more .... in all equivalent circumstances.    Therefore whatever wherever whenever 01/02 calls are charged or included then 03 numbers must also be included!!!    

Therefore Talk Talk must not be allowed to get away with some specious argument that they don't need to include 03s.

loddon wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 9:25am:

Dave wrote on May 4th, 2009 at 8:38am: I think that the stipulation that 03 calls must be part of inclusive minutes where they otherwise apply is so that telcos don't exclude them. From a regulatory point of view, I continue to be of the view that TalkTalk does not have to include 03 numbers in its inclusive local calls offering. That is not to say that they might not include them of their own free will. But don't the regulations state that 03 calls must cost no more than 01/02 calls?

Yes. So if, for example, national calls cost 4 pence per minute and local calls are inclusive (zero fee), then 03 calls must cost no more than 4ppm.

Some of BT's tariffs differentiate between local and national call rate and 03 calls are charged at just below the half way mark between the two.

KC's Talk packages have different local and national call rates. Only KC Talk 4, the all inclusive package has 03 calls at zero fee because KC classes 03 numbers as national rate. Other tariffs which include local calls don't include 03 calls.

I would like to emphasise what I put in reply #9:

I think that the stipulation that 03 calls must be part of inclusive minutes where they otherwise apply is so that telcos don't exclude them.


My point is that if this wasn't stipulated, then telcos that include local/national geographical calls might continue to charge for 03 at what they might claim is their "standard" rate.

I believe, therefore, that the stipulation we are discussing where 03 is to be inclusive where 01/02 is, was made to close any loophole that the telcos might exploit.

Further investigation has confirmed that Talk Talk does not regard calls to 03 numbers as "local calls".

This does indeed reflect the thinking of Ofcom as shown in the relevant sections starting on page of 18 of its statement on introduction of the 03 range. Circumstances have however overtaken this thinking.

Many public sector bodies have adopted 03 numbers for local services. Perhaps the most notable example is the Metropolitan Police. Its announcement of the new number includes the statement "Calls from any network will cost no more than those to 01 or 02 numbers, and also count as part of any bundled minutes". This is rendered untrue by the Talk Talk move, as apparently Talk Talk does not regard Londoners calling the Met Police as being a local call.

It is most important that this be addressed swiftly as the re-introduction of distinct local rates undermines attempts to persuade local public sector providers to move from 08 to 03 numbers. As suggested by others, attempts must be made to persuade Talk Talk to simply add 03 to the group of numbers treated as local rate for all callers. In the light of adoption of 03 numbers by local public service providers, Ofcom should be encouraged to either treat 030 and 034 differently (the later was proposed at one stage) or find some other way of avoiding this damage to the standing of 03. As the whole purpose of 03 was to provide confidence to callers, it cannot allow this to be undermined in this way. Ofcom must either actively discourage local public service providers from using 03 or ensure that this does not create problems.

It is not my habit to publish private correspondence in this forum, but members can be assured that all possible steps will be taken following the bank holiday.

I'm sure I saw an advert or something somewhere that mentioned TT's new 'local rate' and it said that for calls from my location 0151 that it would also include very near area codes like 01925, 01744 and I think one or two other numbers.

This does need to mentioned to Ofcom as it is going to cause confusion because 03x was meant to be included in any inclusive minutes.

However, I may be wrong but I thought that calls to 03x were to be treated as national calls as far as CPs are concerned which would exclude this from TT's new promotion which then causes confusion to end users yet again.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4^th, 2009 at 1:07am:

The TalkTalk definition of "local" is found here.

Interesting looking at that list

Has anyone in any of the relevant areas tested whether these count as free calls?

Birmingham 01201
Bristol 01017
Glasgow 01401
Leeds 01013
Leicester 01016
Manchester 01601
Newcastle 019012 & 019014
Nottingham 01015
Reading 01018
Sheffield 01014

Can't say I've ever heard of Manchester having "01601" as an area code ...

Sorry I don't know anybody on talktalk - I did have a relative who signed up for them a few years ago, but ditched them because their bills skyrocketed..

andy9 wrote on May 8^th, 2009 at 11:22pm:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on May 4th, 2009 at 1:07am: The TalkTalk definition of "local" is found here. Interesting looking at that list Has anyone in any of the relevant areas tested whether these count as free calls? Birmingham 01201 Bristol 01017 Glasgow 01401 Leeds 01013 Leicester 01016 Manchester 01601 Newcastle 019012 & 019014 Nottingham 01015 Reading 01018 Sheffield 01014

And this list was produced by a telephone company?

Good grief.

Just trying to get my head round this:

If you have free calls to all 01/02 numbers nationally across the UK, then you should be getting 03 numbers free as well.

If you don't get 01/02 calls free nationally, but you do get 01/02 local calls free, and you dial a local organisation on an 03 number then it does look like you will be disadvantaged by having to pay for the call.

What percentage of subscribers have 'free local calls' but do NOT have 'free national calls'?


I thought the main benefit of 03 numbers was for people with mobile phones to be able to call them using inclusive minutes, rather than having to pay for the call to 084 or 087 number.

It now looks like this move disadvantages people who are calling from a landline. Maybe the mantra for 03 numbers will be "call it from your mobile". If you have to call from your landline, you'll need a site like 'say no to 03' to look up an equivalent 01/02 number to dial instead of the 03 number.


OK. My head does now hurt.

Quote:

Has anyone in any of the relevant areas tested whether these count as free calls? [quote]Birmingham 01201 Bristol 01017 Glasgow 01401 Leeds 01013 Leicester 01016 Manchester 01601 Newcastle 019012 & 019014 Nottingham 01015 Reading 01018 Sheffield 01014

[/quote]

Those codes above are completely wrong. The placement of the 0 isn't even consistent: sometimes the third, sometimes the fourth, digit.



If you're talking about 'national dialling' numbers, then these are the correct number formats:


Quote:

Birmingham:   (0121) 0xx xxxx    and    (0121) 1xx xxxx Bristol:             (0117) 0xx xxxx    and    (0117) 1xx xxxx Cardiff:            (029) 0xxx xxxx    and    (029) 1xxx xxxx Coventry:         (024) 0xxx xxxx    and    (024) 1xxx xxxx Edinburgh:          (0131) 0xx xxxx    and    (0131) 1xx xxxx Glasgow:           (0141) 0xx xxxx    and    (0141) 1xx xxxx Leeds:               (0113) 0xx xxxx    and    (0113) 1xx xxxx Leicester:          (0116) 0xx xxxx    and    (0116) 1xx xxxx Liverpool:          (0151) 0xx xxxx    and    (0151) 1xx xxxx London:           (020) 0xxx xxxx    and    (020) 1xxx xxxx Manchester:      (0161) 0xx xxxx    and    (0161) 1xx xxxx Newcastle:        (0191) 0xx xxxx    and    (0191) 1xx xxxx Northern Ireland:   (028)  0xxx xxxx    and    (028) 1xxx xxxx Nottingham:      (0115) 0xx xxxx    and    (0115) 1xx xxxx Portsmouth:         (023) 0xxx xxxx    and    (023) 1xxx xxxx Reading:           (0118) 0xx xxxx    and    (0118) 1xx xxxx Sheffield:      (0114) 0xx xxxx    and    (0114) 1xx xxxx Southampton:      (023) 0xxx xxxx    and    (023) 1xxx xxxx