Hi - can anyone track down a landline equivalent for the Rose Theatre, Kingston (08444 821 556)? There is nothing on your database, and the "Stage Door" number on their website is useless - they don't answer any questions about their performances and can't  put you through to anyone who can help, they just tell you that you have to ring the 08444 number.

Try also searching for 0844 482 1556.

Hi

There`s a number 020 8939 4051 here http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/news/8876792.Prunella_Scales_and_Timothy_West_join_Rose_Theatre/ to call if you want to be their friend. Sounds like they need all the friends they can get.

catj wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 11:54pm:

Try also searching for 0844 482 1556.

That's the same number as the one I posted, just with the spaces in different places

mainbass wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 12:48pm:

Hi There`s a number 020 8939 4051 here http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/news/8876792.Prunella_Scales_and_Timothy_West_join_Rose_Theatre/ to call if you want to be their friend. Sounds like they need all the friends they can get.

That number did offer to transfer me, thanks. Unfortunately, if the box office is engaged, they can't put you on hold or in a queue, you have to try again, but still that number does seem to be worth adding to your database.

Thanks again.

Dave

http://www.touchkingston.com/business/search/typeId/469/type/Concert+Halls suggests 020 8546 8706

As does http://directory.thesun.co.uk/find/kingston-upon-thames/theatres

Heinz wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

http://www.touchkingston.com/business/search/typeId/469/type/Concert+Halls suggests 020 8546 8706 As does http://directory.thesun.co.uk/find/kingston-upon-thames/theatres

That actually gets through to the same person who answers the phone if you dial  020 8939 4051!

So both  020 8939 4051 and 020 8546 8706 are worth adding to your database.

Also, I can now confirm that the person on those numbers did successfully transfer me to the box office in the end, so you can add them to the database as confirmed numbers.

Thanks for your help.

Dave

Dave Rado wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 1:17pm:

That actually gets through to the same person who answers the phone if you dial  020 8939 4051! So both  020 8939 4051 and 020 8546 8706 are worth adding to your database. Also, I can now confirm that the person on those numbers did successfully transfer me to the box office in the end, so you can add them to the database as confirmed numbers. Thanks for your help. Dave

Thanks for confirming this. I've done as suggested and put an entry in the database with a note to say that it isn't for the box office but that they will put callers through.

Dave Rado wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 12:51pm:

catj wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 11:54pm: Try also searching for 0844 482 1556. That's the same number as the one I posted, just with the spaces in different places.

Yes, it's the same digits, but putting that number in the correct format into a Google search yields a 50 fold increase in search results.

Hi Everyone,

The phone number listed in the database is for the admin office, we're a small team and as we are now receiving quite a few phone calls I’m sorry to say we're going to have to stop transferring people to the box office.

Our Box Office number 08444 821 556 costs 3.5p a minute from a standard land line.

Or you can buy tickets from our website on rosetheatrekingston.org/whats-on

No fees apply for tickets booked in person.

RoseTheatre wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 1:46pm:

Hi Everyone, The phone number listed in the database is for the admin office, we're a small team and as we are now receiving quite a few phone calls I’m sorry to say we're going to have to stop transferring people to the box office. Our Box Office number 08444 821 556 costs 3.5p a minute from a standard land line. Or you can buy tickets from our website on rosetheatrekingston.org/whats-on No fees apply for tickets booked in person.

Why do you want to make money on the phone calls you receive? If you can't make enough on your tickets themselves in order to break even, wouldn't it be more honest to put your ticket prices up slightly? Forcing people to pay just to make enquiries is unethical.

RoseTheatre wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 1:46pm:

Hi Everyone, The phone number listed in the database is for the admin office, we're a small team and as we are now receiving quite a few phone calls I’m sorry to say we're going to have to stop transferring people to the box office. Our Box Office number 08444 821 556 costs 3.5p a minute from a standard land line. Or you can buy tickets from our website on rosetheatrekingston.org/whats-on No fees apply for tickets booked in person.

The entry in question has now been removed from the database.

The cost of calling the 0844 number is no where near as low as 3.5 pence per minute; that is a downright lie!

The forthcoming changes to non-geographic numbers are expected to mean that service users such as Rose Theatre Kingston will have to declare the "Service Charge" — that is the amount they benefit. The format proposed by Ofcom is "Booking tickets will cost 5 pence per minute plus your phone company's access charge." The "5 pence per minute" is the level of Service Charge which will be set by number block.

At the present time users frequently quote the cost of calling from a BT line. This is a wholly atypical example as BT is uniquely restrained from adding its own Access Charge due to regulation imposed in the days when it originated most telephone calls. This is a retailer selling a product where it cannot any mark-up for itself (other than a tiny regulated amount).

Rose Theatre Kingston incorrectly claims on its website that the cost of calling its 0844 482 number from a BT line is 3.5 pence per minute. It is infact a g6 number, as set out in the BT Price List. This is the highest rate for 0844 numbers. The cost of calling g6 numbers from BT lines is 5.105 pence per minute, plus a Call Set-up Fee of 13.1 pence.

Dave Rado wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 3:36pm:

Why do you want to make money on the phone calls you receive? If you can't make enough on your tickets themselves in order to break even, wouldn't it be more honest to put your ticket prices up slightly? Forcing people to pay just to make enquiries is unethical.

More than that, I want to know why you allow mobile phone companies to pocket 20 to 35 pence per minute from each of your callers just for the sake of the 5 pence per minute that you benefit by?

If you were using an 01, 02 or 03 number, many of your callers would have their calls to you within their inclusive minutes and pay nothing extra; and for pay as you go users they would pay about half the amount they currently do.

catj wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

If you were using an 01, 02 or 03 number, many of your callers would have their calls to you within their inclusive minutes and pay nothing extra; and for pay as you go users they would pay about half the amount they currently do.

The "neutral" non-geographic number range is 03 and was introduced in 2007. Any user that does not wish to impose a Service Charge on callers can move to this range where, as catj says, calls will come from inclusive minutes/bundles, just as 01/02 calls do.

Now is the time for users to think about whether they will be happy to declare their Service Charge when the changes come about in a year or two's time. If they aren't, then 03 is the way to go.

The 0344 prefix is where users of equivalent 0844 numbers can migrate to. All 03 numbers are charged the same and all landline, mobile and payphone providers are known to be in compliance with the rules on these charges.

030x numbers are available to certain organisations, which includes registered charities, or any organisation or individual can have a 033x number.

This might be a point to reflect on some stats. Of course these are wild assumptions and estimates:

I have no idea what percentage of the seats are booked by phone. Of course, the rest are booked via web and in person.

For phone bookings, assume a third each for landline, contract mobile and pay as you go mobile. Assume an average 3 minute wait in the queue and 3 minute transaction.

So for every 100 seats sold by phone, the cinema has gained 100 x 6 x 5 pence in service charge (about 30 quid), but the callers have paid (33 x 6 x 5 pence) + (33 x 6 x 35 pence) + (33 x 6 x 10 pence) extra (about 99 quid) compared to the call cost had they called an 01, 02 or 03 number.

The phone companies pocket nearly 70 quid from your 100 customers because you chose a number that the phone companies charge a large access charge to call.

I think the vast majority of companies using 0844 numbers are not aware of the extent that their customers are being ripped off by these calls.

Dave wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 6:35pm:

The 0344 prefix is where users of equivalent 0844 numbers can migrate to. All 03 numbers are charged the same and all landline, mobile and payphone providers are known to be in compliance with the rules on these charges. 030x numbers are available to certain organisations, which includes registered charities, or any organisation or individual can have a 033x number.

What about 03700, which is what the BBC uses?

0370 numbers are for users migrating from the equivalent 0870 number.


030x numbers are for new users of 03 numbers but they must be charities or government organisations.

033x numbers are for all other new users of 03 numbers.

034x numbers are reserved for migrating 084x users (0842, 0843, 0844, 0845).

037x numbers are reserved for migrating 087x users (0870, 0871, 0872, 0873).

Dave Rado wrote on Nov 15^th, 2012 at 12:08am:

Dave wrote on Nov 14th, 2012 at 6:35pm: The 0344 prefix is where users of equivalent 0844 numbers can migrate to. All 03 numbers are charged the same and all landline, mobile and payphone providers are known to be in compliance with the rules on these charges. 030x numbers are available to certain organisations, which includes registered charities, or any organisation or individual can have a 033x number. What about 03700, which is what the BBC uses?

As catj says, 0370 is the prefix for users of 0870 numbers to migrate to. As Rose Theatre Kingston doesn't use such a number, I didn't mention it.

Hello again,

Following on from the above comments we looked into the pricing of our 0844 line.

Unfortunately we were misinformed at some stage and wrongly believed our calls cost 3.5p a minute, BT actually charges 5.11p per minute for our number (which is classified as a G6 number). We have updated the website and made our box office staff aware.

The reason we have an 0844 number is because of the costs associated with providing a phone service. The charge pays to host our IVR (Interactive Voice Response) platform which queues and directs incoming calls as well as hosts recorded information for our customers. We do not receive a financial benefit from the charges as they go to the phone company in exchange for our IVR system.

Apologies again for our error   

RoseTheatre wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

Unfortunately we were misinformed at some stage and wrongly believed our calls cost 3.5p a minute, BT actually charges 5.11p per minute for our number (which is classified as a G6 number). We have updated the website and made our box office staff aware.

Thanks for making the changes and for posting back here, much appreciated.

That's still very misleading, though. You don't mention the call set-up fee of 13.1 pence per call which everyone who rings you has to pay; or the fact that most people ringing you from landlines pay a higher charge than 5.11p per minute because the BT charge is atypical and most people use other landline providers, all of whom charge more than 5.11p per minute; or the fact that for the many people who need to ring you from mobiles, the calls are far more expensive than the amounts you quote (your website just says "mobiles may vary", which is a ridiculous euphemism for "mobiles always cost many times more than the figures we are quoting"). In summary, you are still misleadingly quoting per minute figures that are not applicable to the majority of people who ring you  (and are considerably cheaper than the rates that most have to pay), without making that fact sufficiently clear; and you are still completely ignoring the per call set-up fee that applies to everyone.

Regarding the way you chose to fund your IVR, that's very unfortunate, as it would have been much better for your customers if you'd chosen a different funding model. You could get round that problem, however, by providing a landline alternative, as most companies do.

Quote:

The charge pays to host our IVR (Interactive Voice Response) platform which queues and directs incoming calls as well as hosts recorded information for our customers. We do not receive a financial benefit from the charges as they go to the phone company in exchange for our IVR system.

In other words, you receive a discount off the price the service costs you to run. That's a benefit. And it's financial.

Please take a look at call prices for Vodafone, O2, Orange, etc. You'll find callers are being whacked up to 41 pence per minute while booking tickets. For me, that's often enough to persuade me to book via some other method, or go somewhere else for a night out.

You know how many calls you get and I guess you can work out what percentage of those are landline or mobile. Please do the maths and see how much money you are making for the telephone companies. They do very very well out of this. You'll be surprised how many thousands per month they are making off the back of your small business. That's all money no longer in your customers pockets to buy refreshments or souvenirs, or to come back more often.

RoseTheatre wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

The reason we have an 0844 number is because of the costs associated with providing a phone service. The charge pays to host our IVR (Interactive Voice Response) platform which queues and directs incoming calls as well as hosts recorded information for our customers. We do not receive a financial benefit from the charges as they go to the phone company in exchange for our IVR system. Apologies again for our error

I am always amazed that organizations such as yours simply behave like sheep and follow whatever appears to be the current trend with respect to telephone numbering without apparently performing the simplest due diligence that should be almost automatic. Surely someone somewhere within your management group has called, during the last ten or so years, one of these wretched numbers from a cellular phone and examined the resulting bill and observed that the call charge is nothing short of extortion? If that is so, then surely that would translate into your group not promoting such unjust charges on your target group? Just because one theater adopts such numbering does not mean you all have to follow.

As a business, you presumably have many overheads, both fixed and variable costs. Presumably you do not directly charge your customers for your heating costs, your cooling costs, your lighting costs, your laser ink costs or similar costs incurred in running a business. Why then do you now have to charge your customers for the privilege of calling you? As with your heating, cooling, lighting and laser ink costs, telephony costs are aspects of regular business expenditure and should be treated accordingly as part of your overheads.

Have you even considered that those living outside the UK face seriousl difficulties and expense in attempting to connect to these rip-off numbers? Presumably as a theater, it is not inconceivable that you wish to encourage Johnny Foreigner to come along to your performances? If so, then provide a number that they can actually use.

Your chosen numbers show utter contempt for your audience. As catj has also alluded to, your telephone company is laughing all the way to the bank. The public is being ripped off and your organization is being ripped off and given misleading information.

0844 equates to a pathetic organization that has not had the decency to do its homework. It creams off fractions of pennies yet the telephone companies make huge chunks of revenue.

Ditch your 0844 number - it will make a difference.

The biggest part of the problem seems to be that when selling 084 and 087 numbers, the telecoms companies generally promote the enhanced calling features and the low cost to your business, tell porkies about the call costs like "084 numbers are charged at BT local rate"* just in case you had heard elsewhere that these numbers are expensive to call, and then completely fail to mention the vast sums they will be pocketing from your customers when they call you.

* http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=0845+local+rate [5.1 million results]
* http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=0844+local+rate [1.6 million results]

Ofcom and the ASA have totally failed the consumer. The Consumer Rights Directive cannot come into effect soon enough. However, will it be enforced?

RoseTheatre wrote on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 11:59am:

… We do not receive a financial benefit from the charges as they go to the phone company in exchange for our IVR system.

Of course Rose Theatre receives financial benefit from use of the number. The "benefit" covers the cost of the IVR which you say is the case!

Perhaps you meant to say was that Rose Theatre Kingston does not receive any direct payments. Such payments come from the higher termination charges (which is the benefit). Thus, the amount that the theatre's provider retains is greater than if it had passed on some revenue, and this is therefore effectively cashback.

BT practically (almost) retails these calls at cost. As Rose Theatre Kingston underestimated that cost, it must have therefore underestimated the level of benefit that it enjoys (which funds the IVR). The only other possibility is if it thought that BT is either forced to retail these calls at a loss or is a registered charity which subsidises the service of 0844 number users.


Where providers of these numbers mislead clients on how much callers pay, one could say that it is in their interest. It is surely foolish for an organisation to take the word of an interested party (the 08 number provider) rather than doing its own research.

In 2007 the 03 range of numbers was introduced. They are non-geographic, just like 0844, and give all the same technical and operational benefits. Calls are charged the same as geographic calls for all landline and mobile users. Inclusive or bundled minutes also apply.