I feel I need to point out that My Company www.audiovisiononline.co.uk spend a lot of money each year to save you money, I do not gain a single penny from my 0845 numbers, I put them in place to promote contacting us and only being charged local rate regardless of where you are nationally, therefore i am now passing on this websites details to my solicitors for legal action against this website and any slanderous comments on 0845 numbers.

I was given the choice from the communications company of either a 0845 number which promotes cheap calls for consumers or an 0870 number which charges more to customers and gains money from consumers, I chose to go for a 0845 number in order to offer the ultimate service to my customers and save YOU the consumer money, only to find my service is being damned by this and similar sites.

Yours



Neil Thomas
Managing Director

01438 & 01480 numbers are cheaper than 0845 number for any Telewest customer

Firstly WHY!!! how can it be cheaper, how can local rate be cheaper then local rate, and as already stated if i make no money from it......why would i introduce it if it was'nt atleast offering the savings to consumers.

Oftel was investigating the causes and extent of higher non-geographic tariffs.  On 26 September 2003, Oftel published a consultation document called '0845 and 0870 numbers: Review of retail price and numbering arrangements'.

The consultation document examines whether the link between the retail prices for 0845 and 0870 numbers and the retail prices for geographic local and national calls should continue, and, if it is removed, other options for establishing the retail prices for calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers.

Many consumers are on unlimited call packages, and discounted call packages that offer free/cheaper calls to standard telephone numbers (beginning 01/02) - These can be called for as little as 1p/min daytime (eg. www.call18866.co.uk).  Whereas, calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers are not generally included in call packages, and charged at 3p/min (for 0845) and 7p/min (for 0870).

Here is a quick list of a few prices for cost of calls

http://www.call18866.co.uk
UK 01/02 calls - 1p/min inc VAT
UK 0845 - 3p/min
UK 0870 - 7p/min

http://www.telewest.co.uk/pdfs/11038_TW_Tariff_Res.pdf
UK Daytime 01/02 calls - 3p/min
UK Daytime 0845 - 3.95p/min
UK Daytime 0870 - 7.91p/min

Also, BT's inclusive call packages do not include calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers.  Therefore, those who pay a fixed rate for unlimited calls, have to pay on top of this for calls to 0845/0870 numbers.

Dear All

It has become apparant that despite my company offering an 0845 number in the quest to offer cheaper calls, dependant on the consumers telephone package it may not always be possible to gain a cheaper call.

Although my first post may have seemed to be a little harsh I feel fustrated that we were/are being tarnished with the same approach as the the companys who use this service to make financial gain, I can state that we do not make a penny from this service, nor do we wish to.

One of the main reasons we used this service was the virtual receptionist offered which allows us to deal with and route our customers calls more efficiently.

We make it as clear as possible on our website all our contact numbers and we also warn customers to check their own phone service in order to establish the cheapest ways to contact us. I agree with this sites content in order to provide cheaper alternatives especially against the companys purposely using this service for financial gain.

Also a little tip is this hasn't been brought up before, if you are calling a company and find that you are always left on hold for a non-sales enquiry simply call sales and demand they sort the problem out, your be amazed how quickly sales answer the phone.

Yours sincerely


Neil Thomas
Managing Director

I'd like to congratulate Neil Thomas on his last post, admitting that he was mistaken over the 0845 number, and I appreciate that many companies use these with the intention of helping customers, unlike the 0870 numbers which are used to make money.

It would be nice if all companies followed his example and quoted both the 0845/0870 number and the geographical number on their web sites, letterheads etc, so the customer has the choice.

Thanks, also, for the tip about calling the Sales number.

Can I ask the name of your company?  I'd like to use, if appropriate!

Anita

Oops!  Sorry, I see you gave it in your first post  ::)

Good Afternoon,

I am sorry to post "out-of-the-blue" but I am a regular user of this website and feel that the comments of lawyers and slander is a bit far fetched.

It is very hard to take someone, or some business for that matter serious, if they start chirping about lawyers over NGN Telephone Services.

Neil, Maybe you are one of the very few, may I add, Non-Geo Business users not out to make money from the 0870/0845/070 Telecom phase.

Which, if I may so is admirable, but please, this lawyer bumph. Please don't litter good sites with this material.
All fair you admitted you where harsh,

Would be happy to speak with you if you care to email me!

Keep up the good work Daniel!



Lilly Buntain

Consumer Assist

a lot of people now have phone deals where their geographical calls cost 5p per hour - national or local -   at any time. 0845 no.s charge at a normal local rate which is much more than this- 3 - 4p a minute, which is about 1500% more! It's not rocket science - they're a rip off: either by the companies that use them or BT

that's why so many people dislike them

all this talk of solicitors just angers people - not scare them. do your home work first , look at the deals around, and then you'll see why people hate 0845 & 0870 no.s.

jc

When Neil says "local rate", he means FULL BT local rate. No thinking person should be paying BT call charges. Most of us, as has been pointed out, pay a great deal less.

Incidentally, Neil, before making threats, you should learn the difference between slander and libel. You meant libellous, not slanderous. That, coupled with very poor spelling, punctuation and grammar, both here and on your Web site, do little for your credibility. Does that sound pedantic? I hope not. While few people would worry about such things on a forum, when you can't get the basics right on your Web site (i.e. your marketing), people will have difficulty believing that you will provide quality service and after-care. They may well be mistaken, of course, but they would be right to question it.

I think the original point of 0845 numbers (used to be 0345), was that the call would be local rate from anywhere. Now we are seeing national rate and local rate being made the same. Also, some packages charge these numbers differently to geographic numbers, meaning that they are just another type of number where telcos can make money on an 'unlimited' call package.

0870s are another kettle of fish, which can only be there to make money, in just the same way as a premium rate number. They are at 'national rate', so why not charge national rate accordingly. As well, we have 070 personal numbers which are all charged a different rates, some being 50p/min  :o

How are you supposed to know what rate they are before you dial? I thought that was the point of the code changes some years back.

You seem to miss the point that so many people these days sign up to all inclusive phone packages which provide virtually unlimited calls at varying times of the day AT ABSOLUTELY NO CHARGE WHATSOEVER!!!

This does not cover 0845 numbers and so you are creating an additional charge on us. The fact that it is a low rate charge is not the issue - people like you are costing us money AND WE DON'T LIKE IT!

If you want to be the Mr NiceGuy you claim to be, then published your geographical number as well. In that way everybody wins.

Bill   :-X

That is it again. It is all about deception which is why so many people can't see what is going on intially. They have been sold the idea principally by BT that these calls don't cost any more! It just aint true. See http://0870abuse.tripod.com

Neil

I signed-up for BT's all inclusive package of £29.50 per month expecting it to cover all my UK calls (as advised by the sales exec!).  Only to find out on reciept of my first bill, that 0845 and 0870 cost extra.  Cosequently, if a company offers contact only via 0845/0870 I don't call it - I only use geographical or freephone numbers.

BT are doing business a great disservice by promoting these non-geographical numbers without informing companies of the potential impact of the various tarriffs their  customers and prospective customers could be on - When I called BT to enquire about 0845/0870 they made no mention of the conflict with all inclusive packages.

I understand there are some very cheap 0800 packages available - I don't think they're with BT though!

All the best

Rob

Hi Rob, I think that your experience just shows the nonsense of the situation. There's no such thing as a free lunch, but BT seem insistant upon force-feeding it to us and making us pay for it.

The removal of BT Standard only highlights this fact, and combine that with the fact that BT Together Option 1 doesn't include these NGNs in its 5.5p for upto an hour, its downright arrogant of BT.

More about the removal of BT Standard is here.

This was my contribution to Ofcom's Consultation  -  084 and 087 non-geographical telephone numbers.  It will be interesting to see have good the new Ofcom is.

084/087 number are in the same 08 category as free (080) telephone numbers.  This leads to confusion, with many thinking that 084/087 numbers are also free. This confusion is not only in the minds of consumers, but is prevalent in the minds of personnel of the various companies who use 084/087  numbers.  When I complain about the use of 084/087 numbers, I am constantly been told that they are free.   084/087 numbers are never less expensive than geographical numbers and companies often receive a premium (revenue sharing) based on the length of call, these numbers should be placed in the 09 category.

All users of non-geographical telephone numbers should print the cost of the calls near the telephone number, together with the amount of  premium  they receive.  I feel that there is an element dishonesty in receiving money from a person making a telephone call without disclosing that fact. Revenue sharing removes any incentive to deal with calls quickly, and as companies receive more money the longer the call lasts, it is an incentive to keep customers on the line for as long as possible.

Public or semi-public organisations which have a monopoly on their services (eg the Land Registry, Passport Agency and DVLA) should not use non-geographical numbers unless they provide an alternative geographical number.

It is ironic that when BT and other telephone providers are offering various call options to reduce or eliminate the cost of calls, companies and organisations, encouraged by revenue sharing, are increasingly using non-geographical numbers which are excluded from all those options.  BT?s Option 1, which is now to be introduced for all customers as a minimum option package, removes the cost distinction between national and local calls, this cost distinction is being perpetuated by the use of so called, and misleadingly named, local and national rate non-geographical numbers.  

By the insidious and increasing use of revenue sharing customers are being locked into making expensive non-geographical calls.  The price of non-geographical call can never go below the revenue sharing element of the call.

K Kearney

Well said, Kevin, I also submitted my views to Ofcom and they are very similar to yours.  The iniquity , particularly, of our own Government in using these expensive 0845 numbers for Benefits, Taxation, etc enquiries/problems is awful.
They are hitting the most vulnerable in our society with even greater, unnecessary, expenditure.
But if our politicians won't do anything what can be done??
I see that the Labour Party enquiries number is an 0870....  - and they want members!!!
What about a National Petition about non geographic numbers?

wrote on May 30^th, 2004 at 10:52am:

084/087 numbers are never less expensive than geographical numbers and companies often receive a premium (revenue sharing) based on the length of call, these numbers should be placed in the 09 category.

No, actually they are the SAME ! Can YOU tell me how much they get for an 0845 call ?


wrote on May 30^th, 2004 at 10:52am:

All users of non-geographical telephone numbers should print the cost of the calls near the telephone number, together with the amount of premium they receive.

See the query made above.


wrote on May 30^th, 2004 at 10:52am:

Public or semi-public organisations which have a monopoly on their services (eg the Land Registry, Passport Agency and DVLA) should not use non-geographical numbers unless they provide an alternative geographical number.

Why ? Just for the likes of YOU & me on inclusive call plans ???


wrote on May 30^th, 2004 at 10:52am:

BT's Option 1, which is now to be introduced for all customers as a minimum option package, removes the cost distinction between national and local calls, this cost distinction is being perpetuated by the use of so called, and misleadingly named, local and national rate non-geographical numbers.

But they ARE the same as Local and National rates ! And the rates are being changed to the same cost for both.  What more do you want - BLOOD  :-/


wrote on May 30^th, 2004 at 10:52am:

By the insidious and increasing use of revenue sharing customers are being locked into making expensive non-geographical calls.  The price of non-geographical call can never go below the revenue sharing element of the call.

Lets get this right. INCLUSIVE plan customers are getting hammered and you don't think it's fair !!  :-X

Put quite simply, if I wish to call an 0845 number it will cost me around 3p a minute (BT 'original' local call definition), and I cannot get it cheaper.
If I use,for example 18866 , then a call to a geographic number - be it Local or National - will cost me 1p per min.
I just want companies to give me the option to save my hard earned money - not give it to BT or other Telcos, or themselves - by providing a geographic number.
All the 'smoke and mirrors' of DaveM about 'inclusive package customers' is just that. Anyone can get  these cheaper calls, regardless of 'packages', we just want the ability to be able to use them.
The bottom line is it does cost people more than necessary using 0845/0870 than it should, so why are we forced down this route - especially by Government agencies, Benefits Enquiries etc??  Write to your MP.

Time for more controversy in Hell's kitchen ! Follow this thread for more Cheap Telco revelations.

Now apart from the fact that Neil Thomas above got his knickers in a twist because he didn't quite understand the purpose of this site, his intentions were good, as he said.  The use of 0845 for many large companies also benefits the caller because with call management it can route calls to the least congested call centre, which means less time waiting (and paying!!) for us.
And don't accuse me of being a BT lover, 'cos I've had about 10 other Telco's over the years, and I'm with 4 different ones now for different reasons (BT - ISDN line rental, Onetel - Anytime & TotalUkTalk, 1899 - International, Tiscali - about to dump).  It's just that I've seen so much rubbish on these forums about 0845, that I'm afraid I had to put a few things straight here.  At the moment let's stick with JUST the BT rates.
The prices shown below are per minute and inclusive of VAT.

			.   Regional/
BT Standard rate	Local calls	0845	. National calls	0870
Weekend	1p	1p	.   1.49p	1.49p
Cheap	1p	1p	.   3.95p	3.95p
Standard	3.95p	3.95p	.   7.91p	7.91p

ANYONE can see that using 0845 is EXACTLY the SAME as a LOCAL call.   Agree ?
And that the 0870 is EXACTLY the same as the National/Regional call.
So that would seem to blow all of you out of the water that just say "they cost more" !!

I'm not talking about the inclusive plans, so lets stick to the Basic UK user, of which there is still quite a high proportion. I don't disagree about the moneymaking schemes of excessive menus, muzak and long queues; I hate them as well.

Now let's look at the BT Option 1 rates, from July 1st -

			.   Regional/
BT Option 1	Local calls	0845	. National calls	0870
Weekend	1p	1p	.   1p	1.49p
Cheap	1p	1p	.   1p	3.75p
Standard	3p	3p	.   3p	7.51p

It's CHEAPER for most but especially Regional & National calls; only the cheap/weekend local calls stay the same!!!

Can someone explain to me where the hell BT is making all this money on the 0845 numbers, 'cos it baffles the !! out of me !  Don't forget also, that these aren't taking into account the Friends & Family and Best Friend discounts.

So for the MAJORITY of UK phone users on BT, using 0845 has been the CHEAPER option upto now.  Those that were on BT Option 1 before (myself included) will see NO difference in call costs but an increased line rental of £1 /month.  
Look at the Telcos list to compare them to the others.

Have a look at my 0845 and 0870 comparisons and give me some constructive feedback. I've only had Daniel and NonGeoMan with useful comments so far, so lets have some more.

I'm not disagreeing that 0845/0870 cost those of us on inclusive packages additional money, but contrary to overall opinion, they don't cost the standard user more! It's your choice not to use BT; it's a Free Country !!  ;D

But choice is not what we are getting!!  It's not a FREE country when our only means of phoning the Gov Agency is via one costlier route.
We are forced to go down the 0845 call, as the table shows at 3.9p/min,  because the Government agencies (my own personal 'beef') will not provide geographic numbers which would only cost us 1p/min using other call carriers (and only 0.5p/min I believe for one company!).  So, up to nearly 8 times more costly !!!
Firms using 0870 to extract even more cash from us should be boycotted.  That is what I do.

I thought we had got beyond the point of debating whether 0845/0870 numbers are an expensive rip-off and moved on towards discovering more creative ways of avoiding them.

After reading Dave M. I am not so sure.

So back to basics. In the days before competition, when phone calls were expensive, 0870 and 0845 started life as numbers where callers, wherever they were in the country, paid the same local or national rate for their call. There was no cost difference in calling national/0870 or local/0845.

Along came competition and national rates were forced down to levels below BT's standard rate. I now find it cheaper to use a third party to call next door rather than make a BT local rate call.

BT maintained their national and local rates at the old high tariff. 0870/0845 are linked to this tariff.

Clearly, BT lost traffic as informed customers migrated to cheaper carriers. Their marketing folk realised that it would be a struggle convincing customers to pay high standard rates in a competitive market.

These clever marketers came up with a wonderful idea! Why not approach high traffic generators, offer them an 0845/0870 number and a slice of the action. This was a win/win situation for all parties except the humble consumer.

The traffic generators though it was Christmas. Now they were getting money every time someone called them. If they gave bad service and kept people hanging on they got even more money. Best of all the consumer could not bypass the number and had to pay the high rate. Many consumers did not and still do not realise that this is the case.

BT got more revenue and fuelled the gravy train by excluding 0845/0870 from their discount schemes. Competition entered the 0870/0845 market and, while not making BT any happier, enabled traffic generators to shop around for an even bigger slice of the action. If anyone doubts that big money is being made from 0870/0845 just do a google search on both. It is almost a feeding frenzy there are so many suppliers.

While all this was going on Offcom/Offsted just sat back and watched it happen. The official line being that if a consumer did not like suppliers using 0870/0845 they could take their business elswhere. Maybe they could in some cases but...

Our leaders have insisted on outsourcing many public services to a variety of service companies. Almost without exception when this happens 0870/0845 would appear in place of the old geographic numbers. As Firestop points out, the consumer seeking to renew her passport has absolutely no choice.
I wonder how many government departments have a clawback on phone revenue generated under outsourcing contracts.

Now we have a state of affairs where it is increasingly difficult to find a sizeable consumer supplier or government department who does not use 0870/0845.

BOTTOM LINE. 0870/0845 numbers have one purpose! To make the consumer pay higher telephone charges. They are premium rate phone numbers and should be regulated by ICTIS. Ideally with 09 prefixes to ram home the fact.

So please, no more 0845 is cheaper postings.

Mr WEBMASTER.
What about a hall of fame for companies who make a point of not using 0870/0845.
My nomination for the first member  TRAILFINDERS

According to DaveM, we will be extremely marginally better off on BT Together after 1 July, rather than BT Standard for 0845/0870 calls! It appears BT don't want us to know this either! I assumed that they would be cheeky enough (and get away with it), to charge "standard" rates even though it won't exist!! Even so, the difference isn't worth anything.


wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2004 at 4:50pm:

So back to basics. In the days before competition, when phone calls were expensive, 0870 and 0845 started life as numbers where callers, wherever they were in the country, paid the same local or national rate for their call. There was no cost difference in calling national/0870 or local/0845.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Calls to mobiles are still extortion, and the mobile operators get away with having chargeable numbers for their customer service. It seems to me another case of the balloon being squashed at one end!


wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2004 at 4:50pm:

Clearly, BT lost traffic as informed customers migrated to cheaper carriers. Their marketing folk realised that it would be a struggle convincing customers to pay high standard rates in a competitive market. These clever marketers came up with a wonderful idea! Why not approach high traffic generators, offer them an 0845/0870 number and a slice of the action. This was a win/win situation for all parties except the humble consumer.

BT will always loose market share. As a sole monopoly they cannot gain any more! BT must compete in a 'market' where they have to provide service to everyone, no matter where. Very unfair from BT's point of view, hence the reason why they are in debt. It would seem logical to see the Royal Mail in the same way.


wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2004 at 4:50pm:

While all this was going on Offcom/Offsted just sat back and watched it happen. The official line being that if a consumer did not like suppliers using 0870/0845 they could take their business elswhere. Maybe they could in some cases but...

That's all Ofcom seem to do. Investigations that ask these big companies to comment, along with consumers. It seems ironic that the only thing that BT seems to be engineering is ways to increase prices.

To me the 'service' is a telephone connection/line and network. To other service providers, they provide a service by piggy-backing onto BT's network instead of creating their own. Why, cause it's cheaper [for them]! So who's maintaining the network? The majority is BT's, but they don't spend the money cause it's not in their [the top directors'] interest [in the short term]!


wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2004 at 4:21pm:

It's your choice not to use BT; it's a Free Country !!  ;D

It seems that my choice of being able look out of the window into my street and not see an unsightly number of cables draped indiscriminately from pole to pole is not available.

I totally agree !  But now show me a comparable supplier doing them cheaper.  ::)   I looked long & hard and couldn't find one that was worth it for anything else, & my rates are as low as any of them. They could be lower but then I've got rid of 90% of mine since finding this sites' database, and I'm finding more every day.

BTW, you could always opt for the potholes in the road caused by useless tw!ts that dug them up & buried cables, or get fried by the radio waves from unsightly phone/transmitter masts all around us. Better still, we could all have matching satellite dishes on our houses so we don't stand out.  ;D

This is getting very very frustrating. The point is not whether it might or might not be a wee bit cheaper to use BT to call an 0845 number than a third party to call a geographic number. I don't belive it is during weekdays when most people are likely to make calls. There are far bigger issues at stake and most consumer suppliers are not open at 3am.

Parliament decided that we would have competition in telecommunications.

BT and other providers use 0845/0870 to try and avoid the effects of competition. Instead of innovating and creating exciting products that people want to buy BT are constantly seeking to preserve their old revenue base.

With geographic numbers you can C H O O SE which carrier to use. You the consumer are in control of the cost of your call whether you call from a mobile or a landline.

0845/0870 are designed to restrict your choice and force you to pay more. They are a historic revenue preservation exercise and are increasingly negating the intention of Parliament.

So let's concentrate on having them classified as premium rate and better still avoiding them.

I have an inclusive 24/7 package with NTL .. but still have a call charge of around £10 per month for 0870s and 0845s.  Even without a call plan .. the national rates are 3p  2p    and 1p.   A hell of a lot less than I have to pay for those nasty 0870s and less than 0845s.
Surely, if consumers got together.. businesses using 0870s could be made to act with honour ... maybe!

It cost my company less to phone, peak time to Croatia than to make a 'local rate" 0845 ca1ll.  It cost me three times the cost to dial a normal national number than a 'Local Rate' number

They must be call these monopoly rip-off numbers 'Premium Rate Local Calls'  This thread shows that even supplier companies think wrongly 0845 saves you money.

wrote on Mar 15^th, 2004 at 12:02pm:

I feel I need to point out that My Company www.audiovisiononline.co.uk spend a lot of money each year to save you money,.

Crap.

If you wanted to save people money, you'd just give them an ordinary geographical number.
(you remember geographical numbers: they're the ones that begin with 01 and 02)

In what alternative universe do you live if you think 0845 are cheaper than 01/02 ?

Certainly many/most/all calling plans that give bundled/free/inclusive calls specifically
exclude 0870/0845 and the like, meaning that someone has to pay to call you where they
would otherwise get them included.

If there are still carriers out there who charge 0845 cheaper than 01/02, then you could
at least give the geog number as an alternative.


Quote:

I do not gain a single penny from my 0845 numbers, I put them in place to promote contacting us and only being charged local rate

There hasn't been any such thing as "local rate" for a good many years now. All geographical
numbers cost the same (for a given supplier).

therefore i am now passing on this websites details to my solicitors for legal action against this
website and any slanderous comments on 0845 numbers.

OK. See you in court then. Saying something that is true is not slander.


Quote:

I was given the choice from the communications company of either a 0845 number which promotes cheap calls for consumers or an 0870 number which charges more to customers and gains money from consumers, I chose to go for a 0845 number in order to offer the ultimate service to my customers and save YOU the consumer money, only to find my service is being damned by this and similar sites.

You should go with a proper communications company then, a decent one that:
a) doesn't quote such meaningless terms as "local rate"
b) tells you the truth, that 0845 is almost premium rate in practice
c) offers you the option of a REAL geographic number

Welcome to this website Muttley3141.

You have certainly been digging hard to find somewhere to make your first post.

The thread was started 2 years ago, and before your post was last updated in June 2004!!

You might have noticed that Neil Thomas had posted saying he was saving us money with 0845.  This was actually when BT Standard was still available, although as other people quite rightly pointed out, some people had switched over to all inclusive call packages, but this was the start of the 0870/0845 scam coming to surface.  Nowadays virtually no call provider can provide 0845 at a cheaper rate, but back then at least BT Standard customers did receive cheaper 0845 calls than geo calls, although most competitors would undercut BT's geo rates but not their 0845/0870 rates.

After a few more postings, Neil saw the light and admitted he was mis-sold his 0845 number and was told it came with a virtual receptionist which he found handy.  There's no such thing as a free lunch and it was paid for by receiving revenue from the calls!!

And upon visiting his website, and looking under contact us, no mention of the 0845 number, and a geo number for sales and customer support, which is sign of good customer service.

I think the best idea if you're going to post on a very old thread is to check the facts, and take into account the events at the time of posting.  Many companies have seen the light and admitted they were mis-sold 0845 and 0870 numbers, but mainly in the last 2 years which was around the time of starting this thread.

And before chucking more criticism at the original poster, you could have visited his website and seen for yourself that he had ditched 0845 in favour of a geo number, possibly thanks to this site, and of course Neil being a telecoms customer himself at home possibly realising that his calls to geo numbers are far cheaper than 0845 calls.

Any company that has the same number for sales and support is trying to maintain good customer service, and it would therefore be logical that he wants people to not pay a premium to contact him.