To all members and friends. Write to Ictis and ask them to classify 0870 as 'premium'  service which means the call cost has to be displayed whenever mentioned. Premium services are those that charge above market  as 0870 does now and where the company gets a cut, so 0870 qualifies well.

I contacted BT some months ago about companies receiving a financial advantage or 'cut' from using 0870 numbers - BT replied that NO cuts were received. Were they telling porkies?? >:(

If you obtain an 0870 number from BT you can indeed earn money from calls received on that number (although not the highest rates compared to other
providers).  You can see this on BT's own website (A link to it is: http://tinyurl.com/2p7sw )

It states:  "You receive payment for call volumes in excess of 10,000 calls a month. You may also be eligible for discounts should you receive large numbers of inbound calls."

Apart from BT there are many other companies who sell these numbers, most offer revenue no matter how many calls are received.

Thanks
Daniel
http://www.saynoto0870.com

There are back handers on 0870 and 0871 numbers.

I work for a call management software firm and we already class 0870 as premium rate within our software and reporting outputs - as it should be :-)

Please take a look at http://0870abuse.tripod.com and join the protest. Make sure that you send a contribution to the Ofcom consultation and that you also make a separate complaint to Ofcom about these abuses. Do it NOW - or at least before the 31st May 2004 which is the cut-off date. Thanks.

Ofcom Consultation  -  084 and 087 non-geographical telephone numbers.  This was my response to Ofcom:-

084/087 number are in the same 08 category as free (080) telephone numbers.  This leads to confusion, with many thinking that 084/087 numbers are also free. This confusion is not only in the minds of consumers, but is prevalent in the minds of personnel of the various companies who use 084/087  numbers.  When I complain about the use of 084/087 numbers, I am constantly been told that they are free.   084/087 numbers are never less expensive than geographical numbers and companies often receive a premium (revenue sharing) based on the length of call, these numbers should be placed in the 09 category.

All users of non-geographical telephone numbers should print the cost of the calls near the telephone number, together with the amount of  premium  they receive.  I feel that there is an element dishonesty in receiving money from a person making a telephone call without disclosing that fact. Revenue sharing removes any incentive to deal with calls quickly, and as companies receive more money the longer the call lasts, it is an incentive to keep customers on the line for as long as possible.

Public or semi-public organisations which have a monopoly on their services (eg the Land Registry, Passport Agency and DVLA) should not use non-geographical numbers unless they provide an alternative geographical number.

It is ironic that when BT and other telephone providers are offering various call options to reduce or eliminate the cost of calls, companies and organisations, encouraged by revenue sharing, are increasingly using non-geographical numbers which are excluded from all those options.  BT?s Option 1, which is now to be introduced for all customers as a minimum option package, removes the cost distinction between national and local calls, this cost distinction is being perpetuated by the use of so called, and misleadingly named, local and national rate non-geographical numbers.  

By the insidious and increasing use of revenue sharing customers are being locked into making expensive non-geographical calls.  The price of non-geographical call can never go below the revenue sharing element of the call.

K Kearney

Hi all
What on EARTH is all the fuss over??  0870 are NOT premium rate numbers.  People calling in are only charged the SAME rate as a standard national rate number!!!!!

The cut, or revenue share, that companies recieve is a portion of that amount - NOT an additional amount.  For charities this is a valuable source of income since it DOES NOT cost their callers anymore money to call them, yet they get a small percentage back from the telco provider, thus lowering their costs and therefore enabling them to spend more of their money supporting their causes and members.

I have just joined the site, as I am getting increasingly frustrated with being ripped off by companies using 0870 numbers for their business, and I hope, therefore, that I am not repeating what has already been said.

I know that 0870 numbers are not premium rate numbers. However, many telephone users have packages which mean they have free national and local calls within their monthly subscription.

Consequently, as I am one of these users, I get more and more annoyed at the companies, banks etc. etc. who are jumping on the 0870 bandwagon to make money from these calls.

I can call them free on a normal national number, but have to pay a considerable amount on an 0870 number. In fact, it was cheaper for me to phone New Zealand for 10 minutes than it was to call a credit card company in this country on an 0870 number for less time.

I believe there should be some means whereby the great British Public should be able to stop this national scam on our telephones and make the companies who are using these numbers own up to their customers and put the matter right.

Anyone got ant thoughts how this can be done???

I agree. I think the main problem is the public are not aware how much 0870 numbers cost to ring.
OK they are not 'premium'  numbers but they are dearer than  'normal' numbers.
And of course when you ring these numbers  you inevitably have to queue.
Why should a company   feel the need to make money from your phone call to them?
There should be more publicity about these numbers so companies are presssured to dump them.
What about Watchdog?

JohnThomas.
You say :- What on EARTH is all the fuss over??  0870 are NOT premium rate numbers.  People calling in are only charged the SAME rate as a standard national rate number!!!!!

What is 'standard rate'??  My definition might be the 'usual rate for the call' - and in this case not many people now pay almost 8p/min, surely?  In fact if you call a 'national' number like 0174832... BT will charge you 3p/min, but phone the national rate 0870....  and BT will charge you 7.9p/min, and 18866 will charge 0.5p/min if only it was an 'ordinary standard(?!) number!!!  Why not ask the question, "Why should it cost so much more simply because the digits dialled are different? "  and "Why have Telco's  arranged these numbers to be outwith the Options packages?".  Greed?
This is the scam, and so I also think 0870 should not be 'standard' - they are premium calls!

Competition in the telecoms industry appears to be working and gradually driving down prices in a number of areas, with one exception.  Of particular concerned is the increasing use and pricing of non-geographical (0870 and 0845) telephone numbers.  A trend that is driving up prices to the consumer..

Companies using 0870 numbers will, after 1 July 2004, be making their customers pay 4.5p per minute extra for daytime calls, as 0870 call cost 7.5p and the maximum cost of all geographical UK calls is 3p.  This is 150% over and above normal geographical telephone numbers making them true premium numbers.   The 4.5p extra charge is shared between the telephone operator and the company.  The companies share depends on the deal they have, but as far as the customer is concerned the calls cost them 4.5p per minute more than it should.

According to Ofcoms own research, a significant number of callers are not aware of the charges associated with 0870 numbers, those numbers should be advertised as premium numbers, together with a clear statement that they incur an extra cost of at least 150% above a normal geographical numbers.   A better solution would be to replace all 0870 numbers with 09 numbers, the numbers range designated as premium.

Enticed by extra income, companies are increasingly using 0870 for their normal communications. Even some Government agencies which have a monopoly on their services, and are often dealing with vulnerable sections of the community, are joining the bandwagon.

As the distinction between national and local calls is to be abolished on 1st July 04, there is now no justification for any organisation to use 0845 numbers, which never cost less than any geographical number, regardless of location.   There is no reason why 0845 numbers should not be included in BTs Option 3 and other similar packages.
 
The increasing millions of customer who pay extra £15 per month for  BTs Option 3 and other all-in schemes, who normally pay nothing for geographical calls, pay the full cost of calls to 0870 and 0845 numbers: 7.5p and 3p per minute.  Those customers are, in effect, forced to pay twice and goes against the general trend for price reductions.  It is invidious that at a time when BT is encouraging customers to use all-in pricing options, they are, at the same time, encouraging companies to use profit sharing non-geographical numbers, which are excluded from Option 3 and generate more money.

Taxpayers pay for Ofcom to regulate the telephone service, but their statements, appear to justify the position of the telephone suppliers.  On present performance, Ofcom could not be described as robust defenders of consumer interests. Ofcoms statements and consultation papers are prolix, convoluted and unnecessarily complex.

kk

Absolutely correct, KK, I agree with all your comments, but would also add that the cost of calls to 0870 numbers can be 16 times more than using a carrier (18866  etc).  8p versus 0.5p/min !!!
And 0870/0845 are allowed to put you in queues for as long as they wish (or you can stand it) and are under no obligation to answer you - they just collect your money!!  At least 'Premium' numbers cannot have queues, so why not make 0870 'premium' as well??

People need to understand the rip-off going on here, how do we publicise it, though?  Nearly all the 'media' use these numbers themselves - so they are unlikely to help!  

Not wishing to make light of this important subject, but you're slightly off there!

Quote:

the cost of calls to 0870 numbers can be 16 times more than using a carrier (18866  etc).  8p versus 0.5p/min !!!

That would be 15 x more if it were correct, but a 18866 call is 1p + 0.5p which only makes it nearly 10 x more  ;D

Quote:

And 0870/0845 are allowed to put you in queues for as long as they wish ... !!

Just the same as they are on Geographic numbers !

Quote:

At least 'Premium' numbers cannot have queues

They just waffle at you for minutes on end about nothing interesting just to make the bill mount up !

Is there any chance of having meaningful discussions without half truths and emotional twaddle thrown onto the pile to compound it even more ?

The correct address for the premium regulator is
icstis.org.uk

Tim Waddle (the significance of your chosen title does not escape me!),

Sorry to correct you, but when you say
"That would be 15 x more if it were correct, but a 18866 call is 1p + 0.5p which only makes it nearly 10 x more   "
you are thinking the 1p is per min - it is not.  The 1p is a connection charge and only applied ONCE.  So as the call gets longer (as they always seem to!!) the significance of the 1p becomes progressively less!!
I will stand corrected on the 16 times more - it is only 15times more, then, (but depends which 0870 charge you take as base!).  Still even 15 times more does seem a trifle excessive, don't you think??
And if this conclusion about 'only 10 times more' that YOU make does not come under your accusation of 'half-truths', then what does?? :'(

If I needed to be in a queue, then I would be happier paying 0.5p/min than 7.5+p/min, was my point!

Never having phoned a Premium line, I confess to not knowing what actually happens in terms of the response, except that legally, there is no queueing allowed - and I still think 0870 should be in that category.

What non- emotional points would you care to debate?

KK, Thanks for the address, will contact them, too.

My calculation was (as yours) incorrect and I stand corrected. Half truth is nearly right (16-1.5/1.5)  :-X
I was actually looking at the relationship between the 8p (7.51p from 1st July) 0870 call, against a minimum 18866 call of 1.5p. I agree the call costs change the longer the call, but it's basic cost comparison.
That true relationship should have been . . . . . 8 - 1.5
 1.5                Which is actually under 4.5x (after July 1st 4x)

Sorry to appear pedantic but the costs are:-

After 1min           18866 costs 1.5p       0870 costs  7.91p
After 10 mins      18866 costs 6p          0870 costs  79.1p
After 20mins       18866 costs 11p        0870  costs £1.58
etc etc - with the ratio of costs rising towards nearly 16 times the cost.

Using a basic cost comparison, as you do,  is meaningless in a case where one function has a step.
Your calculation to explain the difference in cost of 0870 numbers would be exactly what the proponents of 0870 would want - just look at the first MINUTE!!  It's not so bad then!
When was the last time you phoned a NGN and were only in a queue for ONE minute??
Sorry, I cannot accept the validity of your calculation.

It seems to be confusing people who are 'switched on' to the rip-off of 0870, so how anyone else is to understand it I don't know!  ???

Completely agree, Dave, that is why I tried to put some actual costs down in a table to show the increasingly large differentials.
The 0870 operators will be able to continue their revenue gathering from us until more people realise the actual costs are not what they think.  The common expression is "But it says that 0870 numbers only charge the National rate ...",  and so consumers THINK it's as cheap to phone them!!  WRONG, as my small table showed - only when more of us realise this will there be a chance to stop it.

I have written to Ofcom suggesting that to call 0870 'national rate' is misleading.

I have also questioned why the transition from originally being national rate to not being connected to any geographical rates has been allowed to happen and whether consumers are aware of this.

Hi Guys,
I think the strategy here is to make formal complaints to OFCOM re the link between 0870 National Rate when it was introduced to how the de-facto standard (that it was linked/setup to) of BT has now fallen. I have been involved in Telecoms for over 15 yrs and the national rate was merely an extn of the local rate and freefone type service. This is now been turned completely upside down... and BT were in charge of numbering then, not OFTEL.
Incidentally, the 'company' that uses 0870 gets about 2p per minute on the inbound call for calls in excess of 100,000 mins per month; There are variations on this of course but that is the rough 'Book Price'. Also one of the reasons a company uses 0870 is not merely the mercenary instinct to make money from their customers, it is about them saving money.... They need to stop us ringing them with complaints. In these call centres, incoming calls means call queuing, callers get annoyed, stats are awful and then 'company' needs bums on seats to answer calls and provide service. This in turn costs lots of dosh, so the answer is to try and control the call volume by using 0870. Of course it is self defeating as the people that genuinely have problems end up paying for the previlege which is not good.
There is one other aspect I know the 'company' would promote and that is, it is revenue that goes back into the system to stop other price rises; At the end of the day they will get their money one way or another.

OFCOM's first big decision so far has been 'fudged', we will see when they finally make an announcement on BTs anti competitive behaviour of bundling option 1 into line rental. It looks like Ofcom will alllow BT to trample all over the market and they will defer to the big corporates. Don't hold your breath for a relaxtation of 0870... at least it is far more resonable than 0871, now there is a real rip off!! National rate 24 hrs x 7. Most companies & people think it is the same as 0870, just an overflow number set.

On TV yesterday (Richard&Judy - sad, I know) listeners were asked to phone in and 'Judy' clearly said the number - 0870xxxx -  and that calls were charged at only National Rate.
But there is now no such thing, is there?
BT now charges 3p for all the old 'local/national' calls, but you wont get that cost if you phoned that number!!
Is this deception by the TV program?  Premium calls have to be stated in p/min, so why not 0870 as well?
Maybe I should write to R&J for their response!!