http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4225777.stm

GP 0870 numbers could be banned
Ministers are considering banning GP surgeries using 0870 numbers amid concerns over the cost of patients' calls to their doctor.
About 300 of 10,600 UK practices have signed deals with Network Europe Group to install the lines, which are more expensive than traditional calls.

The Department of Health and GP leaders said patients should not be over-charged for calls to their doctor.

But NEG said patients saved money by spending less time on the phone.

Calls to the 0870 numbers are charged at 6.73p per minute - more than double the average rate of calls.

They have proved controversial over recent years as several banks and power companies started introducing them, but GPs are thought to be the first part of the public sector to embrace them.

Under the deals negotiated by NEG over the last year, a slice of the money goes to the company with the rest being taken by the network provider such as BT or NTL.

NEG, which spent four years designing the system, would not reveal how much it made from each call but said it was a small proportion.

Customer accounts director Scott Russell said GPs' patients using Surgery Line spend just two minutes on average on each call, compared to 4.5 minutes before.

He claimed the system speeds up the amount of time spent on calls as patients just have one number to call, whether they want to talk to the surgery during the day or a GP at night.

Under standard arrangements, a patient may have to call the GP surgery in order to find out what number to call even at evenings and weekends.

He said: "It is not actually costing patients any more money, we are just taking away some of the profits providers such as BT used to make.

"Nobody complains when they make money, just when we start doing it.

"The truth is patients are receiving a better service."


But a Department of Health spokesman said: "It is a complex issue and we are investigating to see whether 0870 numbers should be banned.

"We do not want to see patients paying over-the-odds when accessing local services."

Ministers are expected to make a decision in the next couple of weeks, although it is not clear whether a ban would affect surgeries that have already signed up, as the contracts last between three and seven years. Dr Maureen Baker, honorary secretary of the Royal College of GPs, added: "We are not in favour of these phone lines.

"Anything that creates barriers between patients and their GP and reinforces health inequalities is to be discouraged. We would urge other GP surgeries not to take up 0870 numbers."

Quote:

But NEG said patients saved money by spending less time on the phone.   Calls to the 0870 numbers are charged at 6.73p per minute - more than double the average rate of calls.

How b..... disingenuous can they possibly get? 6.73p! They mean 6.73p +VAT
Just tell me anybody that can get the VAT back on calls to the doctor!

Yes, 6.73p + 17.5% VAT = 7.91p (the price BT USED TO quote).

HOWEVER, has anybody else noticed that the BT website has been updated and peak rate 0870 cals are now listed as being charged at 7.51p incl. VAT?

[quote author=bill] ... 0870 cals are now listed as being charged at 7.51p incl. VAT?[/quote]
Oh, now it's a bargain! What are we whingeing about?

Can anyone explain how an 0870 number at least doubles the speed of the reception looking at the appointments diary?

Que?

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2005 at 2:45pm:

But NEG said patients saved money by spending less time on the phone. ... Customer accounts director Scott Russell said GPs' patients using Surgery Line spend just two minutes on average on each call, compared to 4.5 minutes before.

Que?

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2005 at 2:45pm:

NEG, which spent four years designing the system, would not reveal how much ...

I reckon if I couldn't learn about a phone system in 4 years, I'd say I was in the wrong business

Is this the best supplier?

The next thing will be a 4p per mile for emergency call outs. The rationale would be that it improves the service to the patient because the new car goes quicker than the old one.

I am a retired hospital consultant and I deplore the action of these GPs. The extra cash will go straight into their pockets.

wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2005 at 7:54pm:

I am a retired hospital consultant and I deplore the action of these GPs. The extra cash will go straight into their pockets.

It's probably a little unfair to blame GPs, well most of them anyway. The blame lies with the shysters that sell these numbers by using deceit. Most GPs, like most of the general public, are probably unaware of the true extent of the rip-off. Coupled with lies such as "there will be no difference to your patients as these calls are only national-rate" and other garbage espoused by the likes of NEG, the GP probably thinks he/she is getting a good deal. The real villains are the 0870 resellers who, like those that purvey ringtones, reverse SMS, premium rate numbers and other mechanisms that exploit the UK numbering system, just sit back and watch the $$$ flow in. I suspect that most, if not all of the revenue will end up with NEG.

wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2005 at 8:05pm:

It's probably a little unfair to blame GPs, well most of them anyway.

Think I may have to rethink this!

http://www.thisishertfordshire.co.uk/news/borehamwood/display.var.567394.0.patients_being_held_to_ransom_by_surgery.php

Patients being 'held to ransom' by surgery
By Hugh Christopher

Patients are being held to ransom' by having to pay a premium rate to call a
Borehamwood doctors surgery, it was claimed this week.

The Grove Medical Centre in Grove Road, has introduced a new telephone
number for its surgery with an 0870 prefix which charges 8p per minute -
significantly higher than a normal local call.

The surgery has agreed a deal with a phone company which, in return for
installing a new phone system free of charge, will take all the profits from
the calls for the first five years.

The surgery changed its number on Monday, January 24 and the decision has
been met with a raft of complaints.

David Endacott, the deputy chairman of the Borehamwood branch of Pensioners'
Rights, said: "I think it's disgusting. "People ring the surgery when they
are in need and now they must pay eight pence a minute for every time they
are in need. These surgeries always keep you waiting on the line whether
they put you on hold or ask you to press this button or that button for the
service you need. The cost can really add up.

"It's not fair to do this, especially not to senior citizens. The money is
going into the coffers of the surgery which, to me, is not what the National
Health Service is about. We are being held to ransom."

Dr Andrew Schiapira, a partner at the surgery, said: "I can sympathise with
people who don't want to pay. What they must understand is there just isn't
enough money in primary care at the moment and this is something we have to
do. It's not a decision we have taken lightly."

The decision to change the number was taken after the patients encountered
long delays with the previous line which also would have been
non-transferable when the surgery moves to its new home at the Boulevard 25
shopping park.

Dr Schiapira said: "The key advantages of this new system is that calls are
answered faster, the patients are put on hold less and due to additional
phone lines coming into the surgery, patients are less likely to encounter
the engaged tone.

"After our current deal with the company has expired and the system has been
paid for, we will look at returning it to a local call rate," said Dr
Schiapira.

So if these numbers are banned, does this mean that the NHS will owe these private companies money for lost 'earnings'? Will the GPs be happy to pay this out of their own back pocket, as Dr Schiapira said is that their is not enough money around at the moment?

wrote on Feb 4^th, 2005 at 1:51pm:

So if these numbers are banned, does this mean that the NHS will owe these private companies money for lost 'earnings'? Will the GPs be happy to pay this out of their own back pocket, as Dr Schiapira said is that their is not enough money around at the moment?

Note that Dr Schiapira chooses his words carefully - "we will look at returning it to a local call rate" - the key word here is "rate" - this implies to me that they could move to 0845 which is also a rip-off number but not quite to the same extent as 0870. I can only conclude that the Dr fully understands the abuse of the numbering system and the exploitation of the public. Shame on him!

wrote on Feb 4^th, 2005 at 2:06pm:

Note that Dr Schiapira chooses his words carefully - "we will look at returning it to a local call rate" - the key word here is "rate" - this implies to me that they could move to 0845 which is also a rip-off number but not quite to the same extent as 0870. ...

So it's OK to use 0870 for five years, then after that they'll look at it again! ::)

It shows the scale of the thing. That's 300 surgeries agreeing to this for five years. So take the amount of calls a surgery receives in a year and multiply by 1,500. Multiply this by something in the region of 3p to 4p, and you get a very rough idea how much NEG is profiting!!  >:(

Here's some of the marketing garbage on NEG's website. I like the "0870 numbers portray a professional company image" quote at the end - to me, 0870 numbers portray a company that doesn't give a toss about me.

>>>

“Why not take the challenge, if we can’t save you money on your business calls we’ll pay you £100 — No strings attached”NEG’s Account Managers can address the need to save money in a variety of ways.
In the first instance, our tariffs are set to demonstrate outstanding value for money without any compromise in call quality. Secondly, we will look at you call profile and offer a more creative solution that won’t just save you 10% on your current provider but could save you 50% by routing calls in a different way. Changing your usage pattern and the use of non-geographic numbers can significantly reduce call and overall costs.
We offer 24-hour support and we monitor all lines for leakage, fraud and mismanagement. Call data is provided by email on 25th of every month, on time every time, in a format that is tailored to your needs so that it will be of genuine use.
If your company receives 30 calls per hour, we'll pay you over £3,900 per annum… sounds to good to be true?By allocating your company an 0870 non-geographic number we'll pay you 2 pence per minute for every inbound call you receive. No strings attached, cash back every month, just see how the figures add up:
30 x calls per hour based on an average duration of 3 minutes per call = £1.80 per hour or £16.20 per day, based on 9 working hours per day x 21 working days per month = £340 per month or over £3,900 per annum.
Additional benefits:
Works in conjunction with your current number
0870 numbers are portable should your company move
0870 numbers have inbuilt disaster recovery which automatically diverts the caller to a pre-set number in the event of line or system failure
0870 numbers are charged at the National Call Rate
0870 numbers portray a professional company image as used by British Airways, Sky, Barclays Bank, Virgin and many more.
We have a list of golden numbers to choose from, just click here for an information pack.

http://www.islingtonexpress.co.uk/content/highandi/news/story.aspx?brand=NorthLondon24&category=Newshighandi&tBrand=northlondon24&tCategory=newshighandi&itemid=WeED04%20Feb%202005%2015%3A23%3A20%3A013

(last paragraph)

More of the same:

>>>

St Paul's Road Medical Centre has become the first GP surgery in Islington to introduce an 0870 number for appointments. Some patients have expressed concern about the cost of calls, but staff at the surgery insist they aren't premium rate and the new system will allow calls to be answered more quickly and efficiently.

Can someone please explain to me how, unless the number of staff answering the calls is increased, a phone ringing when the caller has dialled an 0870 number instead of its geographical predecessor can be answered ".... more quickly and efficiently".

Surely, what they mean is there are more 0870 lines than there were geographical lines and the NEG system auto-answers calls and dumps them into its automated queuing system (at 8p/minute or part thereof) until someone is available to answer.  

That's not ".... more quickly and efficiently".  That's ".... more profitably".

wrote on Feb 4^th, 2005 at 4:01pm:

Can someone please explain to me how, unless the number of staff answering the calls is increased, a phone ringing when the caller has dialled an 0870 number instead of its geographical predecessor can be answered ".... more quickly and efficiently". Surely, what they mean is there are more 0870 lines than there were geographical lines and the NEG system auto-answers calls and dumps them into its automated queuing system (at 8p/minute or part thereof) until someone is available to answer.

I suspect this is exactly what happens. When I lived in the UK, my surgery would often be busy when I called. Big deal - the redial button or BT's ringback meant that I could get through fairly quickly. I assume that the excuses NEG gives about getting through more quickly relate to the patient being queued immediately rather than getting a busy signal, hence its criterion for "better service" has been met.

Has anyone called one of the rip-off surgery 0870 numbers to see what happens? I would, but I am prevented from doing so from here (USA) as the telco doesn't route. An alternative telco charges 69c/min and I'm not prepared to pay that!

What would happen if a patient had a medical emergency overseas and the foreign health care provider needed to contact the patient's GP for information, for example current medication/treatment? The use of rip-off 0870 may well mean that the provider could not get through and in extreme cases, leading to serious illness or even death. The NHS should take this into account when considering what to do with GPs using premium numbers.

Precisely.

I just put this point to my NHS Primary Care Trust.

Hi. I have been e-mailing my MP Steve Webb recently on this subject. He going to contact OFCOM for me. I found for him- by chance- an artical at Times Online 23 Jan 05 discussing this scam & what to do about it. Hence, found this site. Pete

More extortion from NEG:

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/145/145219_gps_rapped_over_call_charges.html

>>>

GPs rapped over call charges
BEATRIZ AYALA

ANGRY patients have accused a surgery of cashing in on their illness by installing a premium rate phone line.

Rochdale's Edenfield Road Surgery has scrapped its previous local 01706 number in favour of an 0870 number - which charges callers at national call rates. Patients who call to book appointments or repeat prescriptions will pay 8p a minute - almost double the rate from the previous local number.

The surgery will take a percentage cut of the proceeds from the calls.

One patient, Clive Entwistle, said: "It is really disgraceful to be profiting from hard-up patients. They are taking money from old people, some of whom will call regularly for repeat prescriptions.

"My wife was on the phone to our surgery for about 12 minutes and she was charged a pound. I have told her to drive down to make an appointment in future."

An elderly patient, who wished to remain anonymous, added: "I am a pensioner, so I really depend on this service, but I can't afford these calls."

Trend

Edenfield Road Surgery has refused to comment. It is the only practice of 22 in Rochdale to have introduced the national rate number.

Amanda Clegg, development manager at Rochdale Primary Care Trust, said: "We can only advise practices against introducing the national rate calls, which we understand may upset the public. However, we have no control over GPs' individual choices, although we do not support this trend."

Almost 300 surgeries across the country, serving more than a million patients, have started using the service called Surgery Line, which is supplied by NEG and involves a modern switchboard system.

NEG argues that the Surgery Line system avoids patients being kept on hold or in a queue when phoning their GP as it is quicker at routing calls. So although the cost per minute of a Surgery Line call is higher, the total call cost is often lower as patients are not on the phone as long as they used to be.

Richard Chapman, chief executive of NEG, said: "Doctors surgeries do not make a profit from Surgery Line. The 0870 number is simply a mechanism that enables them to fund a state-of-the-art switchboard offering a better service for patients and reduced waiting times."

Will everybody please excuse my naivety and swearing

Just how much does a bloody switchboard cost?

I can't support guesses in tens of thousands which could be the revenue in five years.

£10000 would be just over 2 hours a day; if the usage is less than this, use only 1 or 2 phones

Andy9,

A few hundred pounds, the average doctor's surgery has two operators on at all times.

There is no way they can justify any more money.

It is a complete rip off, trouble is the doctors (most of them) are unaware that they are being used.

J

From "This is Hertfordshire"

>>>

http://www.thisishertfordshire.co.uk/news/borehamwood/display.var.569778.0.surgerys_0870_phone_number_could_be_banned.php


The GP surgery which charges its patients 8p per minute to book an appointment over the telephone may be forced to abandon the scheme after the Department of Health said it was 'investigating with a view to banning' the use of 0870 numbers in its practices.

The Grove Road Medical Centre in Grove Road, Borehamwood, is one of about 300 GP surgeries in the UK which has changed its phone number to a 'national rate' line with an 0870 prefix in a bid to save money. The Grove Road centre has a new telephone system paid for by a company who will take the profits from the 0870 number for the next five years.

But Government ministers and some GPs have objected to the new number because they say people should not be over-charged for calling their doctor. At 8p a minute a call to the Grove Road Medical Centre is more than twice the price of a standard local BT call.

Some press reports have said a decision to ban the 0870 numbers has already been made, but a Department of Health spokesman this week that was the case. He said: "This is a complex issue and we are looking at the wider implications at the moment, but to say we have banned it is premature. We are investigating and will clarify our position in due course. All I can say is that we are investigating with a view to banning them, but we cannot say anything more at this stage."

The spokesman added he could not give any indication of how long the investigation would take.

wrote on Feb 5^th, 2005 at 2:21pm:

Richard Chapman, chief executive of NEG, said: "Doctors surgeries do not make a profit from Surgery Line. The 0870 number is simply a mechanism that enables them to fund a state-of-the-art switchboard offering a better service for patients and reduced waiting times."

I looked at this again.

If the doctor's make no profit then NEG gets the lot; what can the doctor's motivation be?

It's a pack of deliberate lies, mis-selling; I thought there were laws against deliberately perverse contracts. Why so much prevarication against banning them?

The mis-selling of certain financial products has been subject to considerable attention over the years; many compensation claims are still in process ... Will we see similar corrective action?

Forgive me for linking to another forum, especially as I'm not a member there (well maybe they're the ones I should ask!)

http://dcomtalk.com/ftopic6770-0-asc-0.html

Quote from the first post 7Feb

Quote:

Short article in Sat's Daily Mail (forgive me..) saying the Dept of Health was banning surgeries from using 0870s. One of the companies which is affected said they would be claiming the cost of early termination of the contract - estimated at 10mil or so. The reputation of "cashing in on the poor" was quoted as the trigger for the DoH's decision

10 million ! (- my guess was 3)

It's lucky they didn't sign up the whole lot - billions

I don't think they deserve compensation; they should be sued for compensation for mis-selling overpriced gear

300 pbx at a few hundred pounds converted in 4 years into multi-millions?

I've heard people say the NHS is a black hole of overpriced deals ...

I just love one of the replies on that forum to the
Quote:

One of the companies which is affected said they would be claiming the cost of early termination of the contract - estimated at 10mil or so.

comment:

So don't actually terminate the contract, leave the 0870 number in place, but just advertise the *other* number ...

That would be the best idea, by giving the patients the proper number, the patients can continue to call, and the contract with the 0870 number is still in place, albeit not receiving any calls though.

I'm sure NEG would not be in a position to take action against surgeries not generating any revenue, as they mis-sold the numbers in the first place.

So, the end result, is that surgeries have better phones, with a geographic number, and paid for by NEG, who should in future receive no payment for trying to fleece us all!!

I think that's "JUST WHAT THE DOCTOR ORDERED!!" lol but for NEG it's "A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW"

Any other ideas for puns!!

GPs are self employed contractors to the NHS.  They are organising their businesses themselves.  Most group practices employ practice managers.

If they made a bad business decision like signing a contract with NEG, and did not foresee the consequences, they should pay any penalties from their own pockets - and sack the practice manager.

Remember GPs earn £60,000++.

Andy9,

The simple fact is they will appoint a receiver.  (All the assets and  none of the liabilities), thereby wiping out the debt to doctors, patients and anybody else caught along the way.

Also preventing the prospect of being sued for mis-selling.

So watch out for any similar company starting up, particularly the directors.

It is possible of course that NEG could stand this, because the cost of the promised telephone exchange to doctors is only about £600. But that is another thing.............

J

I just thought I should point out the even more unacceptable nature of the increased calling costs for any of the poorest members of the population who need to call a doctors surgery from a BT Callbox.

The cost of a 15 minute call from a BT Callbox to a uk geographic phone number at any time is only 30p but the cost of a 15 minute call to an 0845 or an 0870 number is now £1.65, following BT's decision to exclude 0845 and 0870 numbers from the 15 minutes for 30p deal even though they were included in it until some time late in 2004.

This decision by BT is all the more extraordinary in view of the contents of BT's submission to Ofcom on NTS Options for the Future to be found here:- www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/Responses/btrev.pdf

In this submission BT suggests that revenue sharing on 0845 and 0870 numbers should be banned and that in future these calls can only be charged for by any telecoms provider at the same rate as they charge for other uk local and national geographic rate phone calls.  So it seems strange that BT's Payphone division seems wholly unaware of this proposed future BT policy in their recent payphone pricing changes.

Can I suggest that you email kath.embleton@bt.com (the contact named in BT's response) expressing your dismay at BT's massively increased call prices for 0845 and 0870 calls in their phone boxes which now cost 450% more a minute than for a geographic phone call.  This compares with no price premium for 0845 calls and a price premium of only 150% for 0870 calls when called using BT Option 1 on a weekday daytime from a home landline.

Whilst emailing Kath you may also wish to copy in the real villains on this matter in the form of the following members of the BT board:-  ben.verwaayen@bt.com; pierre.danon@bt.com; paul.reynolds@bt.com; ian.livingston@bt.com

The idea that the surgeries give out the geographical number is a good one. However, I do wonder whether it is NEG that changes the geographical number and whether it discloses this to the surgery. It may be that it is written in the contract that the surgery must not disclose the number. It could also be a VoIP system, in which case there will be no alternative.

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 5:21am:

It may be that it is written in the contract that the surgery must not disclose the number. It could also be a VoIP system, in which case there will be no alternative.

In my position as a local district councillor I have recently been challenging our Head of IT over his setting up of two 0845 numbers in connection with our new dual wheely bin recycling friendly refuse collection scheme.  The use of 0845 numbers was never specifically approved by any councillor or council committee and are our first non geographic numbers, apart from an 0845 number for a new telephone bill payment system that our same head of IT introduced about 3 months ago using the excuse that the out of house supplier of this platform did not offer geographic numbers, and that the only other possible option would have been an 0800 number, which would have cost the council a small fortune.

His excuse for using 0845 numbers for the wheely bin scheme (actually answered by council staff in the council offices and not outsourced) is that to have known the real geographic phone numbers at the time the leaflets were printed would have required him to have ordered the additional fixed phone lines supporting this service for our DDI PBX from BT several months early, thereby incurring additional phone line rental costs for which he did not have authority.  But he just simply seems to refuse to accept (a vision of an ostritch springs to mind) that 0845 calls are vastly more expensive for many of our residents than calls to geographic phone numbers, especially those poorest citizens who need to use a BT phone box to make an 0845 call.  He also seems to be unaware of the existence of intelligent call routing on geographic phone numbers which the latest guidance from the COI now confirms does exist (see www.coi.gov.uk/documents/ccg-update.pdf).  Although I bet that geographic Intelligent Call Routing would have to be paid for by the call recipient rather than being offered "free" (or rather at the caller's expense) as happens with 084/087.

One interesting point that did emerge from all this though was that the 0845 numbers we are using allegedly do not have a geographic DDI equivalent and that supposedly this will only be available when BT lines specifically allocated to the team involved are installed.  I actually find this rather hard to believe but that is what I have been told.

Does anyone have any idea how Ofcom is going to jump on this one?  It must upset them that things have now got too hot even for the BT board on this even though Vodafone have of course put in a predictably sickening response saying that there is no need for any change and that most of their customers think that using a mobile phone represents remarkabable value for money!

I have applied under the FOI to the PCT (Primary Care Trust) to disclose the telephone number they are using for calling the GP who now has an 0870 number for patients' use.

I deliberately did not ask the GP himself to disclose this information because, being contractors to the NHS, they are likely to be able to refuse claiming  commercially confidentiality.

Will let the Forum know in 20 days time (or earlier)what answer I get from the PCT.

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 10:31am:

I have applied under the FOI to the PCT (Primary Care Trust) to disclose the telephone number they are using for calling the GP who now has an 0870 number for patients' use.

I trust you will also be pointing out to the PCT that calling an 0870 number will cost their poorest patients 450% more a minute from a BT phonebox (for the first 15 minutes) than a call to a geographic uk phone number.

Also that even for people with a BT landline in their home the cost of a call to an 0870 number for anyone on BT Option 1 is 150% more than to a geographic uk phone number whilst for a BT Option 3 customer the increased cost is 7.51p per minute versus 0p per minute, with the percentage increase therefore involved being infinity.

The following letter was published in the Islington Tribune on 4 February:

I learnt with dismay that my GP recently changed his telephone number to an 0870 premium rate number at the same time displaying a poster in reception with the disinformation that 0870 numbers are ‘national rate’ not ‘premium rate’ and without stating the cost of 0870 calls.

0870 numbers are premium rate numbers, as acknowledged by BT.  They cost 8p/min to the caller out of which the called party (the GP) gets 3p/min and 5p/min is shared by BT and the company who set up the 0870 service.

When ringing for an appointment recently I was made to hang on for 8 minutes without the call being answered.  This cost me 64p, the GP made a 24p profit and I got nothing out of the call except listening to repeated messages that the receptionists were busy.  Normally I would have only have paid 8p for this (abortive) call as I use a telephone service provider which only charges 1p/min for national calls (BT charge 3p/min).

The NHS is supposed to be free at the point of use.  GPs receive an income of some £60-£70,000 and all their expenses are reimbursed.  There are many elderly patients whose income is a fraction of what GPs earn.  It is shameful that they should impose a levy on their patients for contacting them.

By using an 0870 contact number The GPs are also in clear breach of their contracts with the NHS according to which they must not charge patients for treatment.  Making appointments is an integral part of treatment. GPs should be stopped from profiteering from their patients.  

The Central Office of Information advises all public bodies that they should always clearly communicate the cost of telephone call) to customers on publicity materials  and this should not use any misleading terms such as ‘local’, ‘national rate’  and that  premium rate revenue generation numbers should never be used for public services.

What is the NHS if not a public service?

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 10:40am:

The following letter was published in the Islington Tribune on 4 February:

A good letter but a pity that it was not published in The Times and also sent to the Cabinet Minister responsible for the NHS and also to the CEO of the NHS.  Plus of course also to one's own MP.

If you were the writer of the letter in the Islington Tribune perhaps you might also like to consider those possible additional courses of action.

Not so sure you are right about the NHS always being free at the point of delivery though?  What about prescription charges for instance?  Although admittedly these are not paid by the poorest and oldest members of the community.

TO: NONGEOGRAPHICAL MAN

Rest assured, this has been done.  Here is the relevant passage from the letter to Islington PCT (Primary Care Trust) which asked for the disclosure of the GP's geographical number under the FOI:

I refer to earlier correspondence when I informed you that the St Paul's Road Medical Centre changed its telephone number for patients in January 2005 to an 0870 premium rate revenue generating telephone number:  0870 429 9618.  These numbers can cost patients, many of whom are of limited means, from 7.51 p/min to 10 p/min depending on their telephone service provider.

If patients were to use a normal geographical number, they would only be charged from 3 p/min to 0 p/min depending on their telecom provider. Examples of zero cost are: BT Option 3, Tiscali Anytime Saver and call1899.  

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 10:53am:

If patients were to use a normal geographical number, they would only be charged from 3 p/min to 0 p/min depending on their telecom provider. Examples of zero cost are: BT Option 3, Tiscali Anytime Saver and call1899.

A pity though that you didn't manage to mention the huge extra calling cost from a phone box compared to calling a standard geographic uk phone number from the same location.

I would also suggest raising this issue with your MP.

I am going to ask the COI why their advice on the use of non geographic numbers does not also appear to apply to local authorities such as district councils and county councils, all of which are public bodies.

Hi NonGeographicalMan

Re: Reply 35

Plenty of useful information re telephone call box prices.  Do you have a definitive reference for the above costs, as I intend to use this information in my many complaint letters.  What surprises me is that 0845 and 0870 appear to cost the same via a call box.

KK

And -  re reply 31

Hi Lompos

Re Reply no 34

GPs do come under the FIA - sch 1 part 3.  

KK

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 11:21am:

What surprises me is that 0845 and 0870 appear to cost the same via a call box. KK

No calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers from a BT Payphone box no longer cost the same as other geographic uk phone calls - they now cost a premium price of 10p for 55 seconds at all times.  Amazingly BT do not even charge a lower price for their so called "lo call" 0845 numbers.

Until some date near the end of 2004 BT were giving the 15 minutes for 30p deal on 0845 and 0870 numbers but they then withdrew this because in the words of one of the staff on the BT Payphones Helpdesk (0800 252541) "they did not think the percentage of calls made to these numbers would be a problem but it has turned out to be a problem" so was losing BT Payphones division lots of money since they must pay the terminating call party at least 5p+ per minute in the weekday daytime when they were only receiving 2p per minute for the call.

The BT Payphones website at www.payphones.bt.com/publicpayphones/paymentprices.htm merely now says these calls are excluded from the 15 minuites for 30p deal but it does not say what the calls actually do cost.  For this you will need to call one of the BT Payphones call advisers.  Or you can try and consult the full BT price list to try and find it hidden somewhere there in the deliberately incomprehensible and badly laid out labyrinthine depths of their list.  Of course they could alternatively just have told us that the calls cost 11p per minute in their main pricing section for BT Payphone but for some strange reason they choose not to.

Perhaps some of you may feel like calling BT Payphones on one of their 0800 support shown at www.payphones.bt.com/contactus/bytelephone.htm (sadly they are not open on Sundays) or by sending an email to payphonespaperwork@bt.com or alternatively to ben.verwaayen@bt.com (BT's CEO)

Thanks for the info.  I will ring on Monday.

The BT Price List, as clear as mud!  ::)

There is a link on the above page. Pricing is here. 0845/0870 numbers are charged at g5 rate, it says at the bottom. To find out which number prefixes have which codes, refer here.

wrote on Feb 13^th, 2005 at 3:49pm:

The BT Price List, as clear as mud!  ::) There is a link on the above page. Pricing is here. 0845/0870 numbers are charged at g5 rate, it says at the bottom. To find out which number prefixes have which codes, refer here.

Given the typical expected socio economic grouping and educational level of the average payphone box user I am sure they would of course have no trouble at all with any of this?! :-/

I suppose it might be just a little simpler though if on their headline page for Paybox call pricing BT could have simply said something like "tough luck mate we have decided to do you over on the 0845 call pricing by charging you a huge wedge and not even giving you a cheaper rate for 0845 calls than 0870 calls like what we do when you is back home in doors"?

If anyone wishes to make further comments on this matter I believe that paul.hendron@bt.com is the current head of BT's payphone division.

You surely aren't seriously telling me Dave that you believe the full BT price list is an acceptable document for ordinary telephone consumers to have to grapple with? :o

I heard on "You & Yours" today that the company which installed the now infamous 0870 numbers for GP surgeries has anticipated the actions of the Health Authorities  to ban these numbers and has now come up with another wheeze, they are to be changed to 0844 numbers. The company spokesman was coy about the price of these calls but apparently they will cost less than 0870.Has anyone understood why not having a geographic number shortens the conversation with the surgery ? Possibly knowing the cost makes us all very succint in what we say!!

see "Stutter Stutter"

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 6:38pm:

.Has anyone understood why not having a geographic number shortens the conversation with the surgery ? Possibly knowing the cost makes us all very succint in what we say!!

It doesn't shorten the conversation with the surgery at all but it means your call gets answered almost instantly before you are then put in an automated queue racking up the 0870 call charges.

Like all fiddles with meeting targets in the health service the fiddle here is that they only count your waiting time as the number of rings until the call is answered.  They completely ignore the time you then spend waiting in the queue as a poorer service and can therefore let you wait as long as they like while you rack up the charges.

You actually get a worse service therefore as well as a higher call cost but they have found a way to play with words to claims its better because now you never get an engaged tone.

I've saved it for posterity ...

Listen to the interview here  ;D

Isn't it about time we award ourselves a little pat on the back?

We have (with a lot of help from You & Yours) at least got the call costs down by 30%.

I believe the best tactic now would be to hammer home the cost of calling a GP from a call box.

Just my thoughts on the subject, standby for shooting down................

:)

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 9:15pm:

Isn't it about time we award ourselves a little pat on the back? We have (with a lot of help from You & Yours) at least got the call costs down by 30%. I believe the best tactic now would be to hammer home the cost of calling a GP from a call box.

Well the 33.33333% reduction in call cost per minute for these calls is better than nothing but not that much to write home about though as

(a) the little - didn't even switch to using a normal 0845 local rate number at 3p per minute (a 60% reduction) and are now using an 0844 code actually only intended for dialup ISP services and not in any way industry standard for this kind of call

(b) Its still 4400% more expensive for a 15 minute call than a call to a geographic number using call18866.co.uk and infinity times more expensive than on BT Option 3

But as You and Yours only like "keep it simple" vox pop type topics for their rather wide ranging audience I reckon we should now try to shoot down Mr Paul Hendron, General Manager of BT Payphones (paul.hendron@bt.com) for his division's digraceful decision to charge 11p per minute **AT ALL TIMES** for 0870 and 0845 calls (even though the call termination rate for 0870 falls to under 1p a minute at the weekend compared to 5p in the week) when the BT main board has just put in a submission to Ofcom saying that 0845 and 0870 revenue sharing should be banned.

I reckon You and Yours should also get back that nasty little man from the scam phone equipment company to grill him about people who have to use payphones paying 11p per minute at the weekend  (Saturday morning) compared to something a lot less on a BT landline (not sure what they charge on a BT line for 0844 at the weekend but must be close to 1p per minute).

I also think they should suggest that BT put in big lettering on the box of every BT Payphone "calls starting 01 and 02 cost 30p for for 15 minutes but 084x and 087x calls cost £1.64 for 15 minutes"!

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 9:32pm:

I reckon You and Yours should also get back that nasty little man from the scam phone equipment company to grill him about people who have to use payphones paying 11p per minute at the weekend  (Saturday morning) compared to something a lot less on a BT landline (not sure what they charge on a BT line for 0844 at the weekend but must be close to 1p per minute).

It depends which 0844 is used. They are all a muddle of different rates. The ones mentioned are 5p/min (presumably at all times), which is the highest 0844. It is these numbers which I have given pricing information for from call boxes (in the Shudder shudder thread). Some 0844s do have different day/evening/weekend rates. See here

The proposed 0844 number cost more than a 0870 number from a call box.  The  0844 range to be used cost 10p for  43 seconds plus a 10p connection charge.  0870 cost  10p for 55 seconds plus 10p connection.

BT's charges for calls to 0844 numbers from residential landlines vary between 0.5p per minute and 5p per minute depending upon the subsequent digits and the time/day.

Full list (in an easy-to-read table - very unusual for the BT website) HERE.

By the sound of it, NEG have bought up a range of the 0844 numbers which are designated as being in the (maximum) 5p per minute charge band.  Why am I not surprised?

NGM

I agree with your final point re:call boxes.

Strongly disagree with the guff about housewives, not true, some of us are retired. And it is sexist, not the right forum I think?

However, as the numbers will become illegal in seven days time. who is going to inform the punters that their doctors number has changed?

Are they going to dial the number listed in the telephone book 0870? Are they to redirected and at what cost? If they dial 0870 in the first place how much is that to cost?

Or is the GP going to have to write to everyone of his patients advising of the new number?

That should make NEG very popular?

Is the best solution to go back to theirgeograhical number?

:)

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 9:46pm:

The proposed 0844 number cost more than a 0870 number from a call box.  The  0844 range to be used cost 10p for  43 seconds plus a 10p connection charge.  0870 cost  10p for 55 seconds plus 10p connection.

Can i recommend that you email the below people to point out this remarkable anomaly to them as I am sure they are sick and tired of only hearing from me by email and by now imagine that I am some kind of fanatic on this topic (as indeed I probably am):-

winifred.robinson@bbc.co.uk (the presenter today)
john.waite@bbc.co.uk (other main presenter)
dan.saladino@bbc.co.uk (program producer)
paraic.obrien@bbc.co.uk (researcher)
stoateh@parliament.uk (the MP doctor on the program)
tylerP@parliament.uk (the other interested MP)

If they realised that 0844 actually costs more than an 0870 number from a callbox they would really have a field day with our friend from the telecoms company doing the doctors surgery stuff.  It couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ;)

Also don't forget to make sure to complain to that greedy so and so called paul.hendron@bt.com who is in charge of BT payphones division.  How can he justify these prices unless there is at least a price announcment before each call as per www.call18866.co.uk  Especially when they mislead everyone into thinking that all calls cost 30p for 15 minutes and when everyone (even me) would assume that an 0844 number would not cost more than an 0870.

Please do email them on this in layman's terms.  They just aren't going to take much more notice of me at this stage.  Some fresh blood is needed.

You might also like to consider emailing the editor of Panorama - mike.robinson@bbc.co.uk - as I have suggested it is high time that they did a major feature program on the history of this whole NTS issue.

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 10:04pm:

Strongly disagree with the guff about housewives, not true, some of us are retired. And it is sexist, not the right forum I think? However, as the numbers will become illegal in seven days time. who is going to inform the punters that their doctors number has changed? Are they going to dial the number listed in the telephone book 0870? Are they to redirected and at what cost? If they dial 0870 in the first place how much is that to cost? Or is the GP going to have to write to everyone of his patients advising of the new number?

What housewives are they?  I can only find mention of housewives now in your own post. ;)  As one of the listeners I know very well is actually male and unemployed I can't imagine that I would surely ever have written such a thing. ;D

Regarding the old numbers I imagine they will continue to leave the 0870 numbers functioning as well or they will put an announcement on them saying redial 0844...  They may even charge patients for that announcement.

But do you realise that if 0844 is 5p per minute at all times this means they will be 150% more expensive than the old 0870 number on a Saturday and 400% more expensive than a normal 0845 local rate BT number on a Saturday.  The NHS aren't going to like that when its pointed out to them. As I hope somebody here will do.

I think someone needs to email both You and Yours and our friend Mr Stoate, the Doctor MP, to tell them.  But better one of you than me.  Journalists don't like to feel they are acting as a vehicle for just one person's campaign.  Much better if a whole lot of us start pestering them.

I agree - 4 emails sent two hours ago.
kk

Can we please see a cpy of your post before it was edited by you?

Nothing will be gained by telling lies or pretending that other people are idiots.

It defeats the cause.

Goodnight

Juby

>:(

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2005 at 11:24pm:

Can we please see a cpy of your post before it was edited by you? >:(

I just said that You & Yours was mainly oriented towards Housewives to which another participant in the forum took exception so I edited it out.  So it seems damned if you do and damned if you don't...

OK my comment was a little bit sexist but it is fair to say that You & Yours is pitching more at The Daily Expres or Daily Mail reader than at The Guardian or Financial Times level of analysis.  Also since I am male and currently am able to listen to the program I was being a little bit inconsistent and unreasonable.

Actually this whole 0870 saga has been very good for You & Yours as before this they used to spend their whole time trying to get speed limits lowered to 20mph everywhere but now we have redirected their energies towards something a lot more productive.

Another GP/NEG article, this time from the Salford Advertiser: http://www.salfordadvertiser.co.uk/news/index/articles/article_id=13396.html

Nice headline too - Calls to GP surgeries charged at chatline rate.

>>>>

CALLS to two doctor’s surgeries in Salford can now cost nearly as much as phoning premium rate chat lines.

Patients wanting to book appointments or order repeat prescriptions at Nelson Fold Practice in Pendlebury and Dr Ahuja Surgery in Little Hulton must now ring an 0870 number costing as much as 8p a minute - over twice as much as the previous 0161 local rate numbers.

Outraged residents have labelled the move a “charge on the sick” and accused surgeries of profiting from their patients.

According to Ofcom, the government’s communications watchdog, calling 0870 numbers can cost only slightly less than ringing some 09-number chat lines which charge 10p a minute.

One patient at Nelson Fold who asked not to be identified said: “It’s outrageous. Patients are basically being charged for being sick. Patients would be better off walking round, but what if they’re too sick or elderly so they can’t?

“If it doesn’t cost enough already with prescription prices we are now being charged before we even get examined. Profiting from patients is just sick. As far as I know we weren’t consulted on this.”

A spokesman for Nelson Fold Practice on Bolton Road, said the move was a result of a patient survey and patients benefited from the new number.

When asked if patients now paid more, the spokesman said: “Yes and no. The call rate is slightly higher but we have found that overall call lengths are shorter so calls can actually cost less.

“We’ve done this in response to our patient survey that highlighted a major difficulty with our previous telephone system. This new system is much more versatile to help manage patient enquiries and requests.

“We would never exploit our patients. It was done to improve our service for them. We chose this system because of its functionality and installation set up costs. It also allows patients to contact the out-of-hours service and to cancel appointments when the surgery is closed.”

The ‘Surgery Line’ system was created by NEG plc based in Essex and costs between £16,000 and £20,000 to install. The money is paid back from patient call charges and the surgery apparently makes no profit.

Scott Russell, product development director for NEG plc, said: “We found 90 per cent of doctor’s surgeries were engaged between 9am and 10.15am, but Surgery Line gets rid of this problem with the options available.

“Patients cannot be on hold longer than five minutes. The surgeries make no money from the system.”

According to the list of doctors surgeries in Salford supplied by NHS Direct, only Nelson Fold and Dr Ahuja have 0870 numbers. Dr Ahuja’s Surgery was unavailable for comment.

A spokesman for Salford PCT said: “The decision on whether or not to use national rate numbers remains at the discretion of GPs.”

wrote on Feb 18^th, 2005 at 12:15am:

“Patients cannot be on hold longer than five minutes. The surgeries make no money from the system.”

What  utter nonsense.  Of course the surgery makes money out of it patients from these calls.

They get back from the patients over the next few years the £16,000 in call revenue that they should have had to spend from their own budgets on the telephone system.

I also can't believe that these small phone handling systems don't actually cost a lot less than £16,000 if the doctors were actually having to pay the cost and shopping around for them, rather than simply letting their patients be ripped off for the phone call cost.

People like local councillors and MPs would never dream of putting their phone numbers on 0870.  They would expect their constituents to be absolutely outraged if they did.

More media coverage.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/capitalcity/news/tm_objectid=15205197&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=doctors-caught-up-in-phoneline-profit-row-name_page.html

>>>

Doctors caught up in phoneline profit row Feb 18 2005
 
DOCTORS have been accused of making profits from their NHS patients by using a special phone number that collects money from every call to their surgery.

A GP surgery in Cardiff is the first in the city to use the new money making system but other GPs are likely to follow.

Patient watchdogs are angry at the move and demand that doctors stick with the traditional local phone lines.

The use of the 0870 phone line to GP surgeries has already caused fury in England with the Government stepping in and warning doctors they want it stopped.

The surgery at the centre of the row in Cardiff is the Cathays Surgery in Cathays Terrace - a popular medical centre for students at Cardiff University.

Stephen Allen, the GP watchdog for Cardiff Community Health Council, said: "We are very unhappy about the use of these phone lines. It's the patients that are paying and a very bad move by GPs."

Hi All


More links re 0870

The good people of Whiltshire are not happy:

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2005/02/03/devizes_news_local39ZM.html

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2004/11/04/health_news39ZM.html

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2004/10/28/devizes_news_local52ZM.html

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2004/11/11/devizes_news_letters2ZM.html

More Lies Here From NEG
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:C1eovGF-gGQJ:www.countrydoctor.co.uk/precis/precis%2520-%25200870%2520cheaper.htm+neg+surgery+line&hl=en

Not all Drs are keen
http://archive.mail-list.com/ukpmln/msg07599.html

A misled GP's website (note the lies in blue from NEG
This GP has even got a new line to stop people from using the old number!!
http://www.pencoedmedical.co.uk/news.htm

Dave

I hope that this is what we have been waiting for. Whilst I sympathise with those who have to ring their sugery on 084/087, it certainly gives the whole scam media coverage.

Brilliant Dave 333.

That's enough to keep us going for ages.

The guy in Wales make me think of a bright young doctor who has been completely sold by NEG.

(I can't think why).

You have got hand it to them (NEG) the are the best salesmen since the guy who sold the Tower Bridge to the Americans.

However, consider this (forgive me if has been raised before), The man in the call box desperately trying to call his doctor, his wife is sick: with what he does not know.

The call is immediately answered, our man is very relieved and proceeds to pour his heart out, until he realises that he is talking to a machine.

That is the whole point of their selling - that the phone is answered quicker, and it is, except that our man is piling up charges until it is answered by a real human being.

They are evil, and thev sooner they go bust the better

Average cost about £2.

Juby

:)

wrote on Feb 18^th, 2005 at 8:22am:

I also can't believe that these small phone handling systems don't actually cost a lot less than £16,000 if the doctors were actually having to pay the cost and shopping around for them, rather than simply letting their patients be ripped off for the phone call cost.

I wonder if anybody would care to assess what the costs of an exchange would be?

I'm a little bit out of touch, (by approx 20 years) but I do know that a typical doctors' surgery could handle the calls with a "key and lamp" unit and three lines. (PABX)

Given that the technology has risen in inverse proportion to the cost, I would estimate that at about £600 plus VAT would equip the average doctors' surgery.

Any old engineers out there?

;)

Well said Juby – they do deserve to go out of business.

It also says a lot for the doctors who use this scam, either they are gullible or greedy.

I can imagine the man in the phone box feeding the slot machine at a rate of 10p every 43 seconds.

wrote on Feb 19^th, 2005 at 1:12pm:

I can imagine the man in the phone box feeding the slot machine at a rate of 10p every 43 seconds.

It's the little old lady with the arthritic hands who can't afford her own telephone that I'm imagining ........

wrote on Feb 19^th, 2005 at 1:12pm:

either they are gullible or greedy.

I would like to think that they are neither, given that they buy any old thing the salesman offers them, I think they are bit unworldly.

However if anybody can show proof that a back hander has been instrumental in persuading the doctor to change his surgery number to 0870, then we have got them.

"Back hander" includes a holiday in the Caribean!

:o

wrote on Feb 19^th, 2005 at 10:20pm:

I would like to think that they are neither, given that they buy any old thing the salesman offers them, I think they are bit unworldly.

If this is their ethical judgement then I would not also trust the medical judgement of the doctors in question.

I cannot imagine any local councillor or MP in the country considering using one of these numbers because they are actutely sensitive to public opinion.

This action by doctors only confirms my worst fears about many doctors who effectively do not feel they are in a competitive market for customers and treat many of them like prison inmates than a valued source of business.

If Ofcom don't totally shut down 084/087 revenue sharing, when they report back in a few weeks time, and sling it all on to 09 with ICSTIS they are even more spineless, student and incompetent than I had actually imagined possible.

wrote on Feb 19^th, 2005 at 10:20pm:

However if anybody can show proof that a back hander has been instrumental in persuading the doctor to change his surgery number to 0870, then we have got them.

Don't forget that this is generally happening at large doctors practices who have full time "practice managers" who are pretty useless individuals but like to imagine that they are businessman.  Their morals and instincts are completely opposite to those of a doctor and they have been selected on this basis.

Thus I would not be at all surprised to find that inducements such as free DVD Recorder, holiday in the caribbean etc are all involved.  It would be nice if a doctors surgery who is on our side and has no intention of going ahead could approach NEG, as though they were a real customer, and find out what is on offer.

Network Europe Group PLC  (NEG) has a web site.

www.negplc.com

Quote from DAIL MAIL with a mention of this site at the end.

"GPs dial in to the great 0870 scam
by SEAN POULTER, Daily Mail 09:25am 1st February 2005


The Health Service has been accused of trying to cash in on the sick by introducing rip-off 0870 numbers for local doctors' surgeries.

Calls to the numbers are charged at just under 8p a minute, more than double the amount most people pay for phone calls.

Banks, utility companies and government departments are generating massive windfalls from what are effectively premium-rate lines because most large organisations which use 0870 numbers take a slice of the call cost.

Daily Mail readers reacted with fury to the revelations about the 0870 scam. It now appears the NHS has jumped on the gravy train at the expense of patients trying to contact their GP.

An estimated 300 doctors' surgeries across the country have introduced 0870 numbers in recent months in partnership with a company called Network Europe Group.

NEG supplies telephone systems to surgeries in return for a slice of the call charge imposed on patients.

The net effect is that doctors and the NHS get a 'free' or cheap phone system while NEG makes money from call charges. However, all of this is effectively paid for by patients.

Labour MP Dr Howard Stoate, the only practising GP in the Commons, said: "This is a very worrying trend. We are effectively looking at charging for the NHS by the back door.

"Patients who need an appointment or advice don't have any alternative but to pay this charge.

Campaign to bypass 0870 and 0845 numbers

"Doctors will say this is a good way of them improving their phone systems but I don't believe this should be subsidised by patient call charges."

Most Britons currently pay a maximum of 3p a minute for national or local calls under discount packages. However, calls to 0870, and 0845, numbers are excluded from these packages.

The Lib Dem MP for Cornwall North, Paul Tyler, said government departments and agencies were generating huge amounts by using 0870 numbers. It appears the Home Office has 19 such lines while the DVLA makes £1.1million a year from its 0870 prefixes.

Mr Tyler said: "It is a rip-off. Those who ask for information they are entitled to as citizens are facing very high charges. These are effectively premium rate phone lines."

Mail readers from across the country yesterday complained about the 0870 rip-off. One said: "It is disgraceful that I should have to pay 8p per minute for a questioning session from the NHS if I become ill."

A second said: "At least with a commercial firm you can chose to deal with them or not. This is not possible for doctors' surgeries." Another said: "Lets get this disgusting rip-off halted."

NEG said those dialling the system it uses in surgeries are generally on the line for less time than in the past. So while the call charge per minute was higher, they did not pay much more.

A campaign has begun among consumers to bypass 0870 and 0845 numbers.

The website saynoto0870.com offers alternative, cheaper, numbers for major organisations."

kk mentioned NEG website earlier - on one page

http://www.negplc.com/lcr.htm 2 quotes


Quote:

Least Cost Routing ... that won’t just save you 10% on your current provider but could save you 50% by routing calls in a different way. Changing your usage pattern and the use of non-geographic numbers can significantly reduce call and overall costs.

Quote:

If your company receives 30 calls per hour, we'll pay you over £3,900 per annum… sounds to good to be true?

Strange to say, the Surgery Line details are not so easily accessible, but we've heard their claims that doctors make no money from this service.

If not, why not? Have they done the doctors a worse deal? Why won't they publish it freely?

Sorry, I forgot to include this bit

"Works in conjunction with your current number "

Will the people that continue to dial the old number find that it has, somewhat cynically, been altered?

It is all grist to the mill, but it is important to look to the future.

Richard Chapman (CEO NEG) knows more about this than most people and in his wisdom has seen fit to pre-empt the probable banning of using 0870 for doctors' surgeries, by buying up a large block of 0844 numbers.

This was obviously not an idle purchase because.

 1. It cost him a very large amount of money.

2. It will cost him a 30% reduction in his gross profit.

3. He has to explain his welching on the deal to pay the doctors a sum per call received.

Not a happy bunny?

;)

Possibly a result (well at least in terms of 0870, but not 0844). See what tomorrow brings:

>>>

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money-savers/article.html?in_article_id=398316&in_page_id=5

0870 phone lines ban for GPs
Michael Clarke, This is Money
23 February 2005

DOCTORS surgeries are to be banned from using expensive 0870 telephone numbers amid concerns consumers are being ripped off.
Around 400 UK GP surgeries currently use the numbers, which can charge up to 10p a minute, but the Department of Health is expected to announce a ban and a raft of other measures from tomorrow.

The Department is concerned consumers are being overcharged when trying to undertake a simple task, such as making an appointments with their GP.

The DoH announced it was investigating 0870 numbers, usually the domain of large businesses and retailers, in January. A spokesman said: 'We do not want to see patients paying over the odds when accessing local services.'

The numbers cost Britons £1.25bn in 2003 and can work out at more than twice the cost of local call. It is believed the DoH will enable GP surgeries to use an 0844 telephone number, which is cheaper than its 0870 and 0845 counterparts. The average 0844 call costs 4.25p per minute, against 6.73p for an 0870 number.

Telephone services provider Network Europe Group, said demand from GP surgeries for the special numbers was outstripping the speed at which it could install them. The company claimed the lines reduced the time callers spent on the phone to their local surgery from four-and-a-half minutes to just two.

Surgeries adopting the numbers have come under fire from local communities, which have been angered at both the cost and impersonal nature of the service.

Organisations using expensive 0870 and 0845 numbers may be forced to advertise the cost of the calls on promotional literature under plans by the telecoms watchdog.

Ofcom wants the numbers to be treated the same way as premium rate 090 numbers, with both promotion and content monitored. Ofcom is also planning to ban companies from sharing the revenue from the calls, which means the longer they keep customers hanging on, the more money they make.

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2005 at 7:59pm:

Telephone services provider Network Europe Group, said demand from GP surgeries for the special numbers was outstripping the speed at which it could install them. The company claimed the lines reduced the time callers spent on the phone to their local surgery from four-and-a-half minutes to just two.

This company really is run by a group of scumbags. Its first deceit (0870) looks like it will be replaced by another one (0844). The DOH must stop this and force surgeries to use geographic numbers. As I have pointed out, access to GP surgeries from overseas needs to be taken into account by the DOH. 0844 numbers are even more difficult to terminate from outside the UK than 0870 ones. This company is reprehensible - it exists to exploit and profit from the sick. Disgusting.

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2005 at 8:10pm:

As I have pointed out, access to GP surgeries from overseas needs to be taken into account by the DOH. 0844 numbers are even more difficult to terminate from outside the UK than 0870 ones.

I trust you will point out to the DOH the fact that these 0844 numbers cost 13p per minute at all times to call from a BT Payphone compared to 11p per minute for 0870 and only 2p per minute for a geographic number starting 01 or 02.  Also that 0844 numbers cost 5p per minute to call from a BT landline on Saturday morning compared to 2p per minute for 0870 and 5.5p for 60 minutes for a geographic number.

I can't believe the audacity of NEG in trying to switch to an equally scam filled so called granulated (presumably falling through a sieve with very large holes) 0844 tariff rather than at least an 0845 which they can point to loads of legitimate government information lines etc currently using.

If you have the right contacts on this at the DOH please make sure to inform them of the full facts.

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2005 at 7:59pm:

Possibly a result (well at least in terms of 0870, but not 0844). See what tomorrow brings: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money-savers/article.html?in_article_id=398316&in_page_id=5 0870 phone lines ban for GPs Michael Clarke, This is Money 23 February 2005 The numbers cost Britons £1.25bn in 2003 and can work out at more than twice the cost of local call. It is believed the DoH will enable GP surgeries to use an 0844 telephone number, which is cheaper than its 0870 and 0845 counterparts. The average 0844 call costs 4.25p per minute, against 6.73p for an 0870 number.

What is going on here?  

Is thisismoney.co.uk NEG's publicity agent?  

If not, why are they quoting (like NEG deviously does) the cost of calls EXCLUDING VAT?

How many patients will be able to claim back the VAT?

I noticed that one too, I suppose as a legitimate use of the telephone its customers will be able to claim the VAT back?

How many of the patients of the average GP are registered for VAT?

It is another subject but it really grates when people who use their company's phone for everything do not only not pay the VAT but do not pay for the phone call as well.

How would they know what it costs? And what would they care what the number is? Could be a pound a minute for all they care.

The VAT people do not care. The Inland Revenue don't do much.

Just a little rant, Sorry.

:-[

NEG quoted that 0844 numbers are cheaper than 0870, and 0845.

Not quite correct.  The other poster correctly pointed out that 0870 is cheaper in the evenings, and weekends.

0845 is cheaper at all times, only 3p, or 4p (not sure which) during the day, and only 1p during the evenings.

0844 is 5p minute at all times!!

And of course, the payphone charges for 0844 are alot higher, than 0870.

I think everyone on this board agrees, that the best way to call the surgery would be on their geographic number.

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2005 at 5:31pm:

NEG quoted that 0844 numbers are cheaper than 0870, and 0845. Not quite correct.  The other poster correctly pointed out that 0870 is cheaper in the evenings, and weekends. 0845 is cheaper at all times, only 3p, or 4p (not sure which) during the day, and only 1p during the evenings. 0844 is 5p minute at all times!! And of course, the payphone charges for 0844 are alot higher, than 0870.

I am rather disappointed in the producer, Dan Saladino, with regards to today's You & Yours.  I know that somebody in this forum had patiently tried to explain just how evil 0844 numbers were and that they were basically as bad or even worse than 0870.

Basically both the Doctor guy from the NHS and the women presenter totally fell for the line that the 0844 number was nowhere near as bad as 0870.

This is so blatantly not the case.  0844 costs 13p per minute from a payphone compared to 11p for 0870 and only 2p per minute for geographic numbers.  0844 is as bad as 0870 so how can the NHS fall for this.  No wonder they allowed the 0870 numbers to happen in the first place.

I don't think this Melanie Abbot reporter girl can be much good compared to Paraic O'Brien who has now gone off to work for Radio London instead.  It just seems they believe whatever rubbish that NEG put in front of them and ignore emails that other people send them.

From The Times (on line) 24 Feb 05

Quote... [at the end]

Have there been other types of phone scams?

Some Internet users have found hundreds of pounds worth of unexplained calls to premium-rate numbers. They have fallen victim to "rogue dialler", which change their modem settings to call the expensive number rather than their usual internet service provider.

Although it is perfectly legal, many do not realise that large companies and organisations take a cut of calls to 0870 and 0871 numbers that are often used for customer service lines. These "national rate" numbers usually cost about 10p a minute and make about 2p a minute, generate considerable amounts of revenue.

End quote.

Heading for above.

Q&A: how to stop the phone scams.
By Chris Johnston, Times Online