I had to call PayPal this week re an eBay seller not sending the goods. I used their US number instead of the 0870 number which only cost me 3p. I was on the phone around 12 minutes which would have cost around £1.00 using the 0870 number. I have just had an email from PayPal asking me if I was happy with the help line and could I suggest any improvements. I suggested most strongly that get rid of the 0870 number telling them how I saved money by calling the US number instead of their 0870 number. I don't suppose I will hear anything back from them, but the seed has been planted.

I've just registered for PayPal myself and discovered the 0870. Sent them an email of complaint.

I've registered my own 0870 with them for contact. On the verification page you get PayPal to call your landline. Only thing is, it won't do it, it says something about it can't be a mobile number (well it isn't ::) ). It looks as though I will have to verify by post then.

Telephone 001 402 935 7733 using 1899.com and you can chat to PayPal for as long as you want for 3p. This is the US number for PayPal but they helped me out a few weeks back with my UK PayPal problem.
John

Quote:

I used their US number instead of the 0870 number which only cost me 3p. I was on the phone around 12 minutes which would have cost around £1.00 using the 0870 number.

...and doesn't this just show how absolutely ridiculous and uncompetitive this whole 0870 / 0845 situation has become? It is generally CHEAPER to phone the United States or Australia than it is to phone a 0870 number (unless, of course, you are stupid enough to continue to use BT for your provider....  ;) )

The contact page says "UK national call rates apply" to PayPal's 0870 number.

Hi,
I have sent an email to PayPal asking them why UK members have to use a Premium Rate Number for help when their US members do not. I will let you know what they say in reply.

Me too,

(The National Rate in the UK is 3p per minute. Your info states that 0870 is National Rate, it is not, it costs 7.5p per minute and is a premium rate number.

Your UK operation is liable for prosecution by the Trading Standards Office if you persist in this deception (which I suggest is not of your making)

You have been warned.)

Sent to PayPal with my ID.

juby

The response the email I sent PayPal is just a standard one thanking me for my comments:

Quote:

Thank you for contacting PayPal. We appreciate the time you've taken to write us with your comments about our service. PayPal continuously strives to provide you with the highest quality website features and navigation system. We carefully consider every feedback email we receive and appreciate your suggestions. Thank you very much for your feedback, and we hope that you continue to enjoy using PayPal! Please let me know if you need further assistance.

I've replied and pointed out the misleading statement "UK national call rates apply" on their site.

Don't forget to refer to Leicester City Council's response to an Oftel consultation here (para 1.3).

Hi,
I had the same reply today, I am sure that they don't even read the emails sent to them.
John

wrote on Apr 13^th, 2005 at 9:56pm:

Your UK operation is liable for prosecution by the Trading Standards Office if you persist in this deception (which I suggest is not of your making)

Have you reported them to Trading Standards?  If not, go ahead and do so.  You can probably e-mail your local TS office or submit a complaint via a web form.  Alternatively, use www.consumercomplaints.org.uk or www.consumerdirect.gov.uk (Consumer Direct not available in all regions yet).   This is quick and easy to do, and if you make a complaint you are raising the profile of the issue amongst those who enforce the law, which can only help the campaign.

Or ring Trading Standards or Consumer Direct on their 0845/0844 number, unless you're lucky enough to live in an area where they still use a geographical number!

Attached received form PayPal tonight.

[email]Further to the email we received from you in regards to call rates, I
have escalated your query to our telecom's department who have provided
me with the information below which shows that our Customer Services
telephone number is a national rate call.

NTS numbers are a type of non-geographic number. This means that unlike
ordinary (geographic) telephone numbers (beginning 01 and 02) these
number ranges are not associated with a particular geographic location.
Number Translation Services (NTS) calls are calls made to telephone
numbers which mostly begin with
08
and
09
and usually offer access
to information and entertainment services, and pay-as-you-go internet
access. Examples of NTS calls are:
7 0800, which are free to the caller (or
freephone
calls);
7 0820, calls made by schools for access to the internet;
7 0845, calls priced (before call packages and discounts) at BT
s
standard local retail price for BT customers;
7 0870, calls priced (before call packages and discounts) at BT
s
standard national retail price for BT customers;
7 0844, calls prices at up to 5p per minute, or per call, for BT
customers;
7 0871, calls priced at up to 10p per minute, or per call, for BT
customers; and
7 09XX, premium rate calls generally priced from 10p per minute (or per
call) and upwards.
There are other types of non-geographic numbers such as personal numbers
(beginning 07). The distinguishing feature of NTS numbers are that they
support the provision of services which are either partly or wholly
financed through the call charge.

PayPal (Europe) Limited is authorized and regulated by the Financial
Services Authority in the United Kingdom as an electronic money
institution.

Please let me know if you need further assistance[/email]

Phew, that should give us something to go at,  your advice please.

juby

Refer them to Part A of the National Numbering Plan at
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/ioi/numbers/num_plan_0904.pdf

It states:

'0870 Special Services higher rate: charged (before
discounts and call packages) at BT’s Standard
National Call Retail Price for BT customers
inclusive of value added tax (the price charged by
other Originating Communications providers may
vary)'

i.e. they can only be sure that the call is national rate for BT Standard customers (who are now few and far between because most have been shifted to Together).

And for the avoidance of doubt, the first sentence of Part A of the Plan is

'The designations set out in this section are not intended for pricing information for
the purposes of advertising.'

Report it to your local Trading Standards and ask them to explain the implications to the company.

Hi Hoxne,

Thank you for that, but surely that is what they are
quoting isn't it? At least they are communicating so we can progress from here.

There is no way that I can complain to the TSO, in order to be in a position to complain, I must have been "hurt", I have not, although a user of PayPal I have never had occasion to ring them.

Yesterday I tried to persuade them that their facts were out of date. I am on their side for now, if they will not see the error of their ways then that is a different matter.

juby

Hi, I've just had an e-mail to ring Paypal about sorting out a problem and on checking BT website about the cost of phoning the 0870 number given, the cost goes by the 5th number ie Paypal is 0870 7 307191 so 08707 is a national rate number which I think is 3p a min. Mind you BT don't make it easy finding the costings of all the numbers and when you do there seems to be hundreds of them.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and it won't be the 1st time.
Be lucky out there   Curleydel. ;D ;D ???

wrote on Apr 19^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

...so 08707 is a national rate number which I think is 3p a min. ... Please correct me if I'm wrong ...

You are indeed, and this is the problem. If you are on BT Together, you pay (for 0870) 7.51p/min in the daytime, but 3p/min in the daytime to geographical (ie 01/02) numbers.

There's no need to call the 0870 number as there are alternitive numbers listed on this site. Calling the USA would be cheaper than phoning the number you listed.
John

Indeed it would. For example, One Tel, costs 3 pence a minute at all times. But that is not the point!

The people who quote 0870 as a National Rate number are committing an offence.*

That is what this site is about.

*(Just been joined by the Labour Party)

juby

wrote on Apr 19^th, 2005 at 9:31pm:

The people who quote 0870 as a National Rate number are committing an offence.

Remember to quote/refer to Leicester City Council's submission to an Oftel consultation here, paragraph 1.3:


Quote:

1.3. In 2001–2002, we carried out some research and investigation in response to a consumer complaint. As a result, we reached the conclusion that any price indication given to consumers, which suggested that an 0845 call would be priced in line with a local call or that an 0870 call would be priced in line with a national call, was misleading within the meaning of Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987. Any person giving such price indications, or giving advice that such price indications may be used, is in our view guilty of a criminal offence under that legislation. Such persons could include NTS Service Providers, Terminating Operators and OFTEL themselves.

Edit:
It seems Leicester CC TS have changed their position on this. See response from Manchester CCTS on Micro Direct (here) which referred them to Leicester's response.

wrote on Apr 19^th, 2005 at 8:24pm:

There is no way that I can complain to the TSO, in order to be in a position to complain, I must have been "hurt"

If you're complaining about a criminal offence, you do not need to show that you have suffered any loss yourself before you can complain.  The criminal law is designed to protect the public at large, not to provide redress for individual complainants.

Some Trading Standards services do deal with individual complaints and they do try to help individuals obtain redress; all Trading Standards services without exception enforce the criminal law.

Well just received another reply from PayPal.

I asked if anything was being done regarding what I told them about the misleading statement. No answer.

The guy has sent me the confirmation by post. Nothing regarding why PayPal's validation site regards 0870 as a mobile number, but calls its own 0870 "national rate".

It looks as though trading standards will have to look into this.

Received from PayPal today:

We refer to your recent enquiry. I sincerely apologise for any
difficulties you have encountered while using PayPal. My name is Peggy
and I work for the office of Executive Escalations. Your concerns were
recently forwarded to our office for review in the hope that we might be
able to assist you further. I have reviewed your PayPal account and your
recent enquiry. Please allow me to offer further explanation concerning
your issue.

Recently we received word that you were enquiring about the contact
phone number to PayPal. In your enquiry, you stated that you believe
that the phone number, 0870, is not a National Rate which only costs 3p
per minute, but that you believe it to be a Premium Rate which costs
7.5p per minute.

I was able to locate information on the BT website showing the following
information. The 0870 number for calls is priced (before call packages
and discounts) at BT
s standard national retail price for BT customers.
Any calls starting with 09xx is a premium rate call and generally is
priced from 10p per minute (or per call) and upwards. As stated before,
this is information that was located on the BT website. Please feel free
to visit this website to look further into the difference from a
National Rate and a Premium Rate.

Also, please know that as an internet company, a large amount of our
contacts come to PayPal via email. As you were enquiring about the cost
to contact PayPal, I thought I would let you know that you can email
PayPal absolutely free and a PayPal representative will contact you back
regarding your current issue.

juby

Should have added Peggy's address:

ppelce@paypal.com

juby

Perhaps you should point out the following section of the BT Website where it clearly states that 0845 and 0870 are premium rate services: http://www.bt.com/btcom_redirectLink.jsp?action=redirectLink&targetLinkID=....

A good idea. Done!

Thanks

juby

wrote on May 6^th, 2005 at 11:56am:

Should have added Peggy's address:...

Do you have Peggy's surname?

I think it would be worthwhile explaining more about these numbers. To say that they are 'premium rate' is one thing, but some facts which need pointing out are that:

• non-BT providers and BT 'discounted' tariffs (including BT Together) do not and physically cannot (because of the way they work) lower 0870s to their 'national' rate.
  
• the company providing the number benefits (which is why the originating telcos cannot lower their price).
  
• an 0870 number comes out on a landline, thus if one knows the geographical number, it would be cheaper to dial that. Or more to the point, putting the 0870 in its place means that the caller is charged more, purely and simply for PayPal's gain.
  
• there are an extremely tiny minority of people on BT non-discounted tariffs, mainly due to BT's removal of BT Standard. So even if you wanted to go on such a tariff, the hoops that have to be got through aren't worth it.

Thanks Dave, but I only know what the lady said in the email "My name is Peggy".

She did say what department she worked for though.

Ths whole thing about premium rates means that we are fighting dirty., ie., we know that it was a mistake to publish that (the BT thing), Leicester have taken away our best line of defence (by running scared) and changing their litttle minds. Cowards! We will fight on!!

You have my permission to reply to Peggy on my behalf, quoting the email.

juby

wrote on May 6^th, 2005 at 9:19pm:

Ths whole thing about premium rates means that we are fighting dirty., ie., we know that it was a mistake to publish that (the BT thing)...

I agree. But 'national rate' is a very misleading half truth. It applies to BT non-discounted rates only, thus on such tariffs the description is correct. The majority of the population aren't aware of this and thus peddle the 'national rate' lie.

IMHO, this in itself leads people into thinking that national calls cost more than local ones.

I understand that if you call 08448 373 173 that you are piped  through to Paypals American Customer Services Centre.who will assist Uk Customers.

Calls from BT landlines are charged at 2p at all times.Other suppliers may charge differently.

Calls from mobiles(unless your Network allows them in there bundle) will be charged differently.As will calls from payphones.

If in fact your a 18866 customer still on BT it would be cheaper to use the 0844 no then use the american no through18866,and you get straight through no delay.

wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 11:50am:

I understand that if you call 0844 373 173 that you are piped  through to Paypals American Customer Services Centre.who will assist Uk Customers.

I think you are 1 digit short there BigJohn.

Thanks Dave. It should have read 08448 373 173 i have altered it.

I sent an email to the address juby posted above. I assumed it was for Peggy, but it appears to be the general email address for the PayPal Europe Executive Escalations team, as this reply comes from someone called Shawn.


Quote:

My name is Shawn and I work for the office of Executive Escalations. I want to personally thank you for contacting PayPal. Your concerns were recently forwarded to our office for review in the hope that we might be able to assist you further. I have reviewed your email and the majority of the letter addressed our phone number and the associated fees that members pay to use this number. The number you are referring to is the same number that is provided to the whole of Europe and not to just those residing within the UK. You mentioned the advantages of this type of number. It is precisely why we use this service as we do need to route calls based on volume loads and within departments for escalated issues.

As you can see it just shrugs it all off. No mention of the fact that it's cheaper to call PayPal in the US from the UK, despite the fact that I mentioned this in the email. Very much a "Well everyone else uses them" answer.

I got a similar answer. In mine they state they are working with trading standards and that currently there appears to be no issue with the wording of their charge rates.

Perhaps we could encourage everybody to send the same email and illustrate the volume of people who care about this issue (of course being PayPal & eBay we will all get the same robot responding!)

Ebays main london switchboard is 020 8605 3000,
My contact at ebay claims they have orders from head office not to put any calls through to anyone and if they do not to release the direct number.
Im trying to get her to smuggle out an internal directory.

For anyone who is ever tempted to call paypal - be aware that their telephone customer service is very poor - almost as bad as their email customer service which consists of just sending one of a number of stock answers.

My last two calls to them were 22 minutes and 37 minutes long respectively.

If you have VOIP calling facilities then use the Ireland number listed in the database (00 353 1436 9001) and call using a cheap provider (e.g. calls to Ireland still free at the moment on both voipbuster.com and voipcheap.co.uk).

wrote on May 10^th, 2005 at 11:50am:

I understand that if you call 08448 373 173 that you are piped  through to Paypals American Customer Services Centre.who will assist Uk Customers. Calls from BT landlines are charged at 2p at all times.Other suppliers may charge differently. Calls from mobiles(unless your Network allows them in there bundle) will be charged differently.As will calls from payphones. If in fact your a 18866 customer still on BT it would be cheaper to use the 0844 no then use the american no through18866,and you get straight through no delay.

Can you tell us how much money you have earned from this number by now?

wrote on Aug 7^th, 2005 at 9:41pm:

Can you tell us how much money you have earned from this number by now?

I have posted numerous useful geographical and 0844/0871 numbers on this site,and i havent made a penny from any of them.I do not contribute to this site to make money.

I have (or had) a verified PayPal account. Recently I acquired some 0871 numbers, purely to give out to companies and organisations who do likewise. PayPal being a prime offender, I changed my registered home and work numbers accordingly and promptly lost verified status. After lengthy and tedious e-mail conversations with them, it transpires that 087x numbers can't be registered with PayPal because " . . . they can't be verified".

I suppose they have a (slight) point but isn't the irony delicious?

John

Surely, we should be challenging the users of premium rate 0870 numbers not joining them!  Two wrongs don't make a right!

now thats werid cos I use a 0871 on my account and my account is a verified business account.

mc661 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2005 at 9:06am:

now thats werid cos I use a 0871 on my account and my account is a verified business account.

Presumably its ok for businesses to use 0870 and 0871 numbers ;)  But not for private individuals to do the same.

For a business account they must use other forms of identifiers as the primary form of security?  Either that or they have clearly changed their rules since your business account was verified? ???

Alternative wrote on Aug 27^th, 2005 at 11:56pm:

Two wrongs don't make a right!

Yes I agree with what you say.

Also most of the 0870 number operators employ staff so dumb that the irony of being asked to call back on an 0870 number is completely lost on them.

Most of these people are so dumb that they aldo genuinely still believe the propaganda that BT and the other telcos are secretly dishing out that these numbers are a "national call".  This is not of course to be confused with the cheaper "national rate" except that most of these customer service advisers most definitely do seem to be confused and incoherent on this issue.

Just been watching a nice little video about PayPal Mobile (not that I'm likely to use it) and the video says that 0845 is a toll-free number. I think PayPal has this the wrong way around - it may be "toll free" for them, but it's blooming expensive for anyone using a mobile!

Hi.
Can u believe this............????


https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_contact-phone
shows freephone number
PayPal Customer Service Centre opening hours are:
06:00 to 22:00 Monday to Friday
08:00 to 22:00 Saturday
09:00 to 22:00 Sunday
For general PayPal account inquires, please call us on freephone 08707 307 191

Oh, I shouldn't worry - I've already notified them that they are falsely advertising the 0845 Paypal Mobile number as "toll free", and they have promptly ignored my email. You can try contacting them but I suspect they'll just ignore you too.

Dial  this numner and see what happen?

00353 1 436 9004

That's their Dublin contact number.  15p/min weekday daytimes on BT option 1. (10p/min elsewhen.)  

It's obviously somewhat cheaper on most alternate providers (1p/min on 1899) but still not exactly 'freephone'.

jgxenite wrote on Jan 29^th, 2008 at 6:29pm:

Oh, I shouldn't worry - I've already notified them that they are falsely advertising the 0845 Paypal Mobile number as "toll free", and they have promptly ignored my email. You can try contacting them but I suspect they'll just ignore you too.

The thing is, in the States, all these numbers would be toll free, which is probably why whoever wrote that page is getting confused. It's only in the UK that we have this culture of rip-off numbers. It must be an alien concept to the Americans.

PayPal clearly has UK and Irish-based operations, so they should know that these numbers aren't toll free (or could notify the person updating the UK pages to inform them of this if they happen to be based in the US). The fact that they do not respond to emails from customers (or continue to ignore them) just shows how much they care about this issue...

Quote:

The thing is, in the States, all these numbers would be toll free, which is probably why whoever wrote that page is getting confused. It's only in the UK that we have this culture of rip-off numbers. It must be an alien concept to the Americans.

I can absolutely assure you it is. Many friends have told me there would be a second Revolutionary war if the telcos tried it............. ;D

However, it does look like they use a normal number for their Service Center - 1-402-935-2050 (a U.S. telephone number)

(As I am currently outside the US, that might be a number in recognition of my non-US IP address. It's unusual for US organisations to NOT use 1-800 numbers)

Quote from PayPal Help/Contact Pages

"For general PayPal account inquires, please call us on freephone 08707 307 191"

Surely an 0870 number can't be Freephone or I'm I behind the times with my understanding of such numbers........?

No your right it cant be a Freephone , in fact  the issue has already been discussed - see above.

~ Edited by Dave: Thread joined to existing one.

Thanks Dave

I'm going to drop a line to OFCOM, see if they'll force them to change their page. Totally misleading and deliberate I would imagine. Tiny point really but it's the damn principle involved.