Has anyone else noticed that BBC's 'Watchdog', probably the leading consumer programme, invites viewers to call an 0870 number?  Every week I see the number advertised I visit the Watchdog site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/) and via the 'contact us' tab leave a suitable complaint about this practice.  It is iniquitous that a programme that purports to be on the side of the consumer should stoop to the use of an 0870 number.  I hope everyone else will do the same.

Meanwhile, this is a fantastic site - keep up the good work!

I sometimes refer to it as my favourite comedy program.

It is a bit of a joke isn't it, compulsive watching though!

The problem is even they do not know that they are ripping the viewer off. And the BBC has gone on record as saying that they do not make any money out of 0870.

NEG again?

J

No, I am sure it is the Capita group again, the lot that run the Congestion charge in London, I think they also run the Licence Fee gathering for the BBC. I think they were behind various other failed government IT schemes as well, but they always seem to get the work. But the BBC always claim that therefore that the 0870 is nothing to do with them. I have written many times to Watchdog, You and Yours and Feedback, to get them to raise the subject with Capita, but naturally to no avail,

cheers

Flutty

You mention You & Yours, at least out of three parties quoted they alone have done two programmes on our side.

Yes, all three of the programmes have come out against the use of 0870 numbers, the point I am making is that they ALL continue to use 0870 numbers. When challenged on this they use the defence that the call centres are not run by the BBC so therefore beyond their control. Which is of course nonsense, as I asume they agree the contracts in the first place??
???

wrote on Feb 15^th, 2005 at 4:03pm:

No, I am sure it is the Capita group again, the lot that run the Congestion charge in London, I think they also run the Licence Fee gathering for the BBC. I think they were behind various other failed government IT schemes as well, but they always seem to get the work. But the BBC always claim that therefore that the 0870 is nothing to do with them.

Why not actually go to the horse's mouth, so to speak, by contacting the relevant people at Capita:-

These are Ian Stuart at Capita in Belfast who actually works for Capita despite his email address being ian.stuart@bbc.co.uk -  Tel :- 028 9053 5772

Ian is Capita's head of IT and is directly responsible for and knowledgeable about the whole Capita BBC Information phone system with Cable & Wireless.  According to him Capita don't get a revenue share from Cable & Wireless but just gets a special arrangement to set up new 0870 and even 0800 numbers for BBC programs on demand in about 5 minutes flat.  Although Geoff Brighton at Ofcom actually told me that he had heard that the BBC got a really good deal on their outgoing calls with Cable & Wireless as an offset for all the incoming 0870 business.

Why not give Ian Stuart a call with your views (028 9053 5772) or you alternatively may prefer to email his boss - paul.pindar@capita.co.uk - who runs the whole sordid operation.

You can get more information on Ian Stuart where I found it at www.infj.ulst.ac.uk/~bcs/officers.html

I hope this is of some assistance.

I wrote to Watchdog and have just received their reply as shown below. I choose at this stage not to identify the signatory but would really appreciate comments from the more experienced SAYNO members amongst you - before issuing my considered reply.
The letter writer certainly appears to be genuinely trying to explain and I'm inclined to appreciate that ...but are they wrong ? Is there a better cheaper way for them to carry out their function ?
Obviously their view that the 0870 is NOT Premium rate is open to a variety of comment !

Lavillegour


Let me try to clear up some of the confusion surrounding 0870 numbers and why Watchdog uses one.

0870 numbers are NOT premium rate numbers.  Calls to our number cost up to 8 pence a minute (8 a.m. to 6 p.m. weekdays) and 5 pence a minute (6 p.m. to 8 a.m. weekdays) and the BBC receives no income whatsoever from these calls. With average call lengths of one minute thirty seconds, it is therefore cheaper to call the BBC than sending us a letter using a first or second class stamp.  The reason for using an 0870 number is partly to enable us to give a better service to callers by allowing us to route the calls more efficiently and deploy call automation to handle peak demands.  Some of these technical benefits would not be available if we were to use geographical numbers instead (ie: those beginning 0207 for London or 0161 for Manchester etc) or would cost the BBC extra to provide, and that would take money out of programme making and could effect the level of service we are able to offer the viewer.    It is also thought to be fairer to all of our viewers for a call to cost the same no matter where in the country you are calling from.  With an 0870 number our viewers in Scotland pay exactly the same as those in London.

OFCOM will be reviewing the use of 0870 numbers in August and we will of course follow any recommendations or rulings that they make.

I hope this helps you understand the reasoning behind why we use this number.  The interests of our viewers is always of paramount importance to us and we will continue to review the situation to ensure the most appropriate number is used to suit the needs of the public who use this service.

Best wishes

Just got the same reply myself!!

It's wrong on so many accounts - it's such a SCAM.

Where do you start?

How about the Post Office telecom deal charges 10ppm at any time to 0870 number?

Can you name me a telecom plan where local and national rate calls are charged at different rates? Even BT don't do that now!

wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2005 at 1:16pm:

The letter writer certainly appears to be genuinely trying to explain and I'm inclined to appreciate that ...but are they wrong ? Is there a better cheaper way for them to carry out their function ?

The latest revised Central Office of Information Guidance shows that there is actually a cheaper way for the BBC to handle these calls.  Its called "intelligent routing on Standard Geographical Numbers"  Don't take my word for it but check out the COI guidance here:-


www.coi.gov.uk/documents/ccg-update.pdf

As the BBC is ultimately a taxpayer owned operation you can make a very strong case that they should be following the COI guidance right now and not be waiting for any future Ofcom guidance, which is really only relevant for commercial companies who are currently allowed to profiteer from 0870 calls.

The BBC does profit from these 0870 calls in many ways indirectly because it gets a special deal with Cable & Wireless for setting up ad-hoc 0870 numbers for certain programs at short notice that Cable & Wireless doesn't do for anyone else.  The BBC also appear to get big discounts on their outgoing call costs from Cable & Wireless that they wouldn't get if Cable & Wireless wasn't profiting from all these incoming 0870 calls to the BBC.  The main expert at Ofcom, Mr Geoff Brighton, has told me that this is going on.

The letter you have had is just a stock propaganda letter the BBC sends all their customers who complain about 0870, although the thing about expecting further guidance from Ofcom in August is very, very interesting and new.  It seems that they know of a date for action that nobody else is yet aware of.  Unless that is an old date from last year with August being the date that Ofcom was meant to publish their NTS consultation document.

You may also be  interested in all the responses to the two Ofcom consultations on NTS/084/7 to be found here.  The response from the Ofcom Consumer Panel is a particularly robust one:-


www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsoptions/


and


www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ntsctmr/

Yes, I went to the BBC Watchdog and posted the following message:-

'Why do you use a premium rate 0870 number for members of the public to contact you?  For an organisation which pupports to be on the side of the consumer this is appalling.  

Telephone Provider's 'national call rate' (BT for example) is no more than 3p per minute.  However your 0870 number costs up to 3 times this amount to telephone and is still advertised by organisations which use them as 'National Rate'  They aren't, they are Premium Rate numbers and you should stop using them and display your geographic number which normally will begin with 01 or 02.  

How much 'kick-back' of 'revenue share' do you get when an unsuspecting member of the public rings the number to discuss a problem?

I urge you to stop this unfair practice - if you don't you and other organisations which use these numbers will continue
to get bad publicity by using them!

**************************************************

It will be interesting to see what response I get.


Alternative

lavillegour,

Whilst I would agree the tone of the letter is generally more 'friendly' than many replies on the subject, it still contains a number of errors (some would say falsehoods).

First, the assertion that 0870 numbers, "....are NOT premium rate numbers" can be shown to be false.  

We all know that '09' numbers are Premium Rate but the cost of calling 090000, 090074, 090116, 090125 and a number of other '09' codes is LESS than 8p per minute.  Ergo, 0870 numbers are Premium Rate numbers.

Second, there is the "Calls to our number cost up to 8 pence a minute (8 a.m. to 6 p.m. weekdays) and 5 pence a minute (6 p.m. to 8 a.m. weekdays)" statement.  BT changed their interpretation of 'day' last week and the charges are now up to 8p per minute 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. weekdays and 5 pence a minute 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. weekdays.

Finally and most importantly, there is the now familiar 'levels the geographical playing field' twaddle, "It is also thought to be fairer to all of our viewers for a call to cost the same no matter where in the country you are calling from.  With an 0870 number our viewers in Scotland pay exactly the same as those in London."

Since 1/7/04, when BT did away with the differentiation between 'local' and 'national' calls and standardised the cost of calls from anywhere in the UK to UK 01 and 02 numbers at 3p/minute weekdays and 5.5p for up to an hour evenings and weekends, a viewer in Scotland dialling a London 02 number pays exactly the same as a viewer in London (or anywhere else in the UK for that matter) making the same call.

All the use of 0870 numbers does is make sure all callers pay 8p (or 5p) per minute instead of 3p per minute (or 5.5p for up to an hour) - in other words, a Premium Rate!.

wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2005 at 1:52pm:

It will be interesting to see what response I get.

Sorry but the reply to your complaint won't be the least bit interesting, it will be the usual drivel that all BBC customer service staff always spout.

If you want to get anywhere you need to email the BBC top brass e.g.

michael.grade@bbc.co.uk  Chairman
alistair.thompson@bbc.co.uk Chief Exec
ashley.highfield@bbc.co.uk  Technology Director

Or how about tessa.jowell@culture.gov.uk

or

stephen.carter@ofcom.org.uk and kip.meek@ofom.org.uk

or

marc.michael@coi.gov.uk

or

milibandd@parliament.uk

If you send a standard customer letter you will just get a standard customer response treating you as a dummy.

Sorry to have to tell you that but its how the BBC operates.

Do the BBC come under the FOI act?

My response (Motto: keep it simple) would be along the lines of:

As 0870 number cost over 150% more than normal geographical numbers (01 and 02) they are de facto premium rate numbers.  Depending on the telecom provider, 0870 numbers cost between 7p and 10p during the day. They have been describes as such by Ofcom and BT as premium numbers.

The term “local rate” and “national rate” now has no practical meaning and are terms used only to confuse consumers.  BT, along with all other telecom providers has one universal UK rate regardless of UK location.  During the day, BT charge, at most, 3p/min for ALL UK calls to 01 and 02 numbers, other telecom providers charge less. A call from London to London cost the same as a call from Edinburgh to London.

0870 numbers are revenue sharing numbers, which means that the caller pays extra for the call and this extra money in shared by the called number and the telecome provider. This fact is kept secret from the caller.

01 and 02 number can, given the correct instructions, do anything an 0870 number can do.  Telecom providers generally keep silent about this, as they prefer to sell the more profitable 0870 numbers.  Does the BBC, or agents, receive any part of this revenue?

Please respond to the above under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, remembering to be honest, as required by the Act .

wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2005 at 2:45pm:

Sorry but the reply to your complaint won't be the least bit interesting, it will be the usual drivel that all BBC customer service staff always spout. If you want to get anywhere you need to email the BBC top brass e.g. michael.grade@bbc.co.uk  Chairman alistair.thompson@bbc.co.uk Chief Exec ashley.highfield@bbc.co.uk  Technology Director Or how about tessa.jowell@culture.gov.uk or stephen.carter@ofcom.org.uk and kip.meek@customer.org.uk or marc.michael@coi.gov.uk or milibandd@parliament.uk If you send a standard customer letter you will just get a standard customer response treating you as a dummy. Sorry to have to tell you that but its how the BBC operates.

Hi NGM,
I agree that top brass & MPs should be lobbied with some direct simply explained facts. It would perhaps help if all 1800 or so of us members & those who just 'visit' this site had a sample letter to email. I find it difficult to exactly describe the true facts and perhaps you could do something on these lines as your understanding of the situation is obviously wider than most people's. A combined assault to these people & TV shows may get a better response than just odd individual letters & perhaps done on a weekly or monthly regular basis, as you have I believe already said  your name is being recognised too often after repeated lobbying.

;)
Yesterday I phoned the DVLC simply for a form V796. I could not phone the nearest local office and was on the 0870 number for 6 mins after going through 5 if not 6 six option menues.

Also where have I seen postings that 087* & 084* are to be banned , particularly as GP Surgeries are on the scam bandwaggon.

Keep up the good work!!

TonyB

wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2005 at 6:54pm:

Yesterday I phoned the DVLC simply for a form V796. I could not phone the nearest local office and was on the 0870 number for 6 mins after going through 5 if not 6 six option menues.

Why did you call the DVLA on one of their 0870 numbers?

idb got them to admit to a geographic contact number at the end of last month in response to his/her FOI request for disclosure:

Quote:

Ref: Freedom of Information Act 2000 - request for information   I am writing to confirm that the Agency has now completed its search for the information which you requested on 1 January 2005.   As an overseas caller, you requested an alternative geographic number for making driver/vehicle enquiries.  I can confirm that our switchboard number is 01792 782341 and can be used for this purpose.   If you are unhappy with the way the Agency has handled your request, you may ask for an internal review.  You should contact me if you wish to complain.   If you are not content with the outcome of the internal review, you have the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision.  The Information Commissioner can be contacted at:   Information Commissioner's Office   Wycliffe House   Water Lane   Wilmslow   Cheshire   SK9 5AF   If you have any queries about this e-mail, please contact me, quoting the above reference in any future communications.

 

Hi Heinz,
Thanks for the tip!!!
However search for this number in our database here , (now that I have suddenly thought of it), comes up with Chester DVLC 01244 409650 the other number you quote has not been registered. On their side though, I suppose to be fair they made say 5px6 = 30p & they are posting me the form with no charge. ( Bit of a softee really!)(Believe that & you'll believe anything!). What did you think about mass mailing idea or has this been mooted before?
:-/

Just thought I'd copy my reply F Y I .

lavillegour



"I am not at all sure whether you actually composed the arguments within your email yourself or received guidance and assistance from elsewhere within your organisation. In any event immediately upon receipt I decided to publish it's contents on the 'saynoto0870.co.uk' website. A website that I hope you are aware of  ! -  Note that I published only the content and chose to avoid giving your name as perpetrator of the ideas contained within the email (after all perhaps you weren't !).

Probably because I am  a bit lazy and at an age when I mostly wish to avoid the written/spoken debate (especially with the deaf  who patently know better)  I suggest that you access this website, click on 'Discussion' and read very carefully the seven comments that have already arrived in response to your arguably 'misguided' explanation.  These can be found under the heading :  Watchdog on 0870 - defending the consumer ???

In addition it would probably be beneficial if you were to read into many of the other discussion paths. You may become as angry as many of us are at the growing scam being perpetrated against an unknowing but largely apathetic public by public bodies, banks, large company's etc and even general practitioners within the health service .

Of course you may respond to those comments directly to the website yourself or reply to me if you feel you are able to justify some of your beliefs. Whatever course you take I now see that I need to direct my attention elsewhere (to where the power resides) so that such persuasive nonsense is  overcome - after all you obviously believe it !

Thanks for at least putting your head above the BBC Watchdog 'parapit' "

   
Herewith copy of email I recently sent to THIS MORNING
 
 To:    thismorning@thismorning.co.uk  
 
 Subject:   Scams  
 
 Date:   Feb 07 2005, 02:03 PM
   
 Hi,

I have phoned in, but I guess too late to be counted so to speak. With regard to less than transparent presentation (scams) I find it rather hypocritical of yourselves to point the finger at scams (Quite rightly of course) whilst perpetrating I think 2 sorts of deception yourselves!!!

1/ Offering a diamond pendant worth you say £5000 (probably costing 50% @ trade price) as a prize for a ridiculously easy question. How many thousand viewers particularly housewives phone in @ £1 per call (or was it per minute?????) I bet more than 5000.

2/ To contact you by phone requires use of an 0870 number.There is at present a move afoot to try to get Oftel to look into the massive scam in the unnecessary use of these numbers. To explain: - When BT used to charge different amounts per minute for calls from longer distances (ie National call rates) it was a fair move on the part of organisations wishing to equate the cost of contact by customers wherever they lived in the UK. Now there is no difference between the per min. charges as Local & National calls are the same price @ 3p per min.through the day, whereas 0870 numbers are charged @ 7.51p per min and in many cases up to 4.5p is actually paid by BT to the number holder!!!! If you look @ your phone bill you will now find two new categories of charge which are "National Rate" covering 0870 etc & Lo-call covering 0845. If This Morning gave your London geographical number rather than the 0870 it would cost callers less to contact you, unless you like making a large amount of revenue from this source. To maximise benefit by the misuse of this system some of the organisations  using 0870 & 0871 numbers employ a long "menu" to enable you to contact the dept you need & then have you hold as a "valuable caller" until an agent is free!!

In the case of, would you believe it, the DVLC in Swansea receives thousands of calls in a week say 10,000 each averaging say 10 mins then 10x10,000x4p= £4000x52weeks=£208,000pa. Food for serious thought.

Being even more nitpicky if you consider that the new tariffs charged by BT., whereby you do not pay for actual calls, exclude 08** & 09** numbers so these people pay twice.

My name is Tony B*** & my phone number is 01*** ******
More expert comment on these scams is available on www.saynoto0870.com

As you will no doubt have guessed these are matters I consider really serious.  Hoping to hear from you, Tony.


Any members suggestions to edit/ clarify for mass usage welcome. TonyB.

Thanks to Non Geo Man for posting those email addresses.

I sent Ian Stuart an email yesterday and he has replied saying that he doesn't respond to viewers and listeners and has directed me to BBC Information.

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2005 at 12:15pm:

Thanks to Non Geo Man for posting those email addresses. I sent Ian Stuart an email yesterday and he has replied saying that he doesn't respond to viewers and listeners and has directed me to BBC Information.

I think Ian is already regretting his rather long conversation with me after which I sent a follow up email to various members of the BBC executive board (not the board of governors) attempting to clarify the Corporation's precise business arrangements with Capita and with Cable & Wireless.

Perhaps telephoning Ian may have rather more effect as it will give him less time to think about whether or not he should answer the question.

I found him originally by typing the words "BBC Capita Belfast" into Google and his union representative post (also quoting his email address and phone number) popped up in the top five.

This is all part of my campaign of guerilla war against companies with these numbers where I never ever respect their wishes that I should simply bash my head against a concrete wall in their customer services department.

Most commercial bodies list their executive directors in either "About Us" or "Corporate Governance" on their website and most email addresses are usually firstname.surname@company.co.uk or .com  Failing that its usually either firstname_surname or asurname or firstnamesurname or occasionally just firstname

Ofcom still incredibly seem to be minded to go down the increased granularity (that is more uknowably priced 0844 numbers) and more call pricing information route despite the very clear cut suggestion from both BT and the Ofcom Consumer Panel that this won't work.

We must keep up the pressure on Ofcom and the 087/084 abusers during this critical period.

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2005 at 12:35pm:

Ofcom still incredibly seem to be minded to go down the increased granularity (that is more uknowably priced 0844 numbers) and more call pricing information route despite the very clear cut suggestion from both BT and the Ofcom Consumer Panel that this won't work.

This got me thinking. It appears that Ofcom aren't going to learn a lesson and stop this rip-off, they're just changing it. So what motives would the industry have for continuing it all and what are the possible outcomes?

I've given my opinions on this in What will Ofcom do?

Did anyone hear the tail-end of You & Yours on Radio 4 yesterday?  They mentioned the feature 'Call You & Yours' that takes place on Tuesdays, which uses an 0870 number.  However, the announcement yesterday said that anyone calling on that number will not be put on hold, and they will call you back if requested.  Now, I'm no expert, but won't that initial call attract the usual minimum call charge which, on 0870, is as we all know a good deal more than a standard call?  And I wonder who decides when the period 'on hold' actually starts?

Yes I heard it and remember thinking as they don't make any money out of it why do they persist in using it?

Well they don't do they, they have said so often enough.

;)

wrote on Feb 25^th, 2005 at 11:30am:

Yes I heard it and remember thinking as they don't make any money out of it why do they persist in using it? Well they don't do they, they have said so often enough.

It appears that you have to be running some kind of community affairs radio program at the BBC to qualify for their small ration of 0800 numbers from Cable & Wireless.

The stupid thing is that all we want is an 01 or 02 number which would cost the BBC next to nothing to run compared to the vast call costs that firms receiving 0800 calls (costs generally as high as for making an 0870 call) have to pay.

wrote on Feb 25^th, 2005 at 9:33am:

Did anyone hear the tail-end of You & Yours on Radio 4 yesterday?  They mentioned the feature 'Call You & Yours' that takes place on Tuesdays, which uses an 0870 number.  However, the announcement yesterday said that anyone calling on that number will not be put on hold, and they will call you back if requested.  Now, I'm no expert, but won't that initial call attract the usual minimum call charge which, on 0870, is as we all know a good deal more than a standard call?

The minimum call charge with BT is 5p and it costs 7.51p/min to call 0870 during the daytime. Up to 40 seconds it costs 5p (the minimum charge), and after that it costs more.

But we all know that by dialling 18866 or 1899 we only get charged 1p connection fee, so why should we have to phone an 0870 or 0845 number??? Keep up the good work by exposing these rip off merchants and giving their geographic numbers so we don't pay more than 1p for each call!!

As a new and rather confused user can anyone please tell me if I the right to demand a non geographical number from any company I phone. I see the FOI act mentioned and wonder if I quote this to them. I am a bit cloudy on my rights and want to go in fully armed . Thanks

On Phoning commercial companies, it is certainly worth asking them in the nature of good customer services, whether they will provide a geographic number to call.  Many companies will do this, in order to keep a customer happy, especially if you're a prospective customer.  I don't think you can throw the FOI act in their face, but you can certainly use the "I might take my business elsewhere" line

However people live the DVLA, Inland Revenue, and other government departments, you don't really have the luxury of taking your business elsewhere.  But Government departments, and I think NHS surgeries will be covered by the FOI.  It is certainly asking for a request for government departments, but I think private commercial companies you won't get anywhere with FOI.

Yes, I agree - the FOI Act is for public and not private bodies.

In response to the other point, I refuse point-blank to give my business to any company or organisation that wants to take money off me just for the priviledge of contacting them, and the majority seem content (sometimes through gritted teeth) to provide a 'proper' number when this is requested - particularly when you point out that your business will go elsewhere if they refuse, and that a forceful email of complaint is about to wing its way to them via their website.........

The sooner they get the message that, far from making money out of their callers it is actually losing them business, the sooner they will cease this iniquitous practice.  Never forget that the consumer is king!

Absolutely right CG; but not many seem to be sufficiently professional to get this message!

Thanks for the replies, you've clarified things for me very well. I shall now try and add my weight to the say no campaign.