Just heard Peter White say "0870 .................. Around 8 pence a minute."

That was their own number!

juby

I don't understand juby? Is that good or bad?

I would have thought that anything which gives publicity to the amount charged by dialing that number is good for our cause.

Especially if it is on Y&Y.

Basically it was Peter White rebelling against his employers, not the first time.

juby

OK, thanks juby. I agree that all publicity about the abuse of 0870s etc. is good for our cause, but just to state that "0870 ... Around 8 p per minute" I think does not do much for the cause? Anyone listening would still not understand what this scam is about?  

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 5:59pm:

OK, thanks juby. I agree that all publicity about the abuse of 0870s etc. is good for our cause, but just to state that "0870 ... Around 8 p per minute" I think does not do much for the cause? Anyone listening would still not understand what this scam is about?

No, but can you sum up the whole scam in a couple of words? Obviously not.

So mention of a rough price is better than nothing. The price of any number varies according to provider. Hopefully this sort of pricing information will help promote the numbers for what they are; premium rate.

But that's my point Dave. Just stating the price does not in any way show that they are Premium numbers!

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 6:31pm:

But that's my point Dave. Just stating the price does not in any way show that they are Premium numbers!

But, by definition, they are premium rate as they cost more to call than geographical landlines! I think it is fair to assume that the destination is a fixed landline.

To quote a price which, in general, is the same across different providers, it is also fair to assume that they are premium rate.

I agree with you, whether they cost 1p or £1.50, they are premium rate as the called party benefits. But the cost of the call itself is the most important thing, a point which many 090 providers make, but don't always state that they benefit.

I think a word of explanation is needed here.

Firstly, You and Yours is a BBC Radio Programme which is broadcast on weekdays at 12.04pm daily. It is one hour long. I do not know what the listening figures are but it has been in the same spot for years and ....

It is without any doubt our biggest ally in the broadcast media. They have run four programmes on the subject, (all against) much of it about the subject of Doctor's surgeries and 0870.

They are as much responsible as this site is for the ban on the same. (I hear you say.... no - no!)

Peter White is a very respected contributor to the programme and has been against 0870 from the start even though the programme use the number itself.

I merely reported what I heard today, minutes after I heard it.

I thought it was worth reporting at the time, I still do.

juby

Happened to have the radio on at 12 noon today when You and Yours started they had an article about something and then gave out their telephone number it started 0800 does this mean they have changed their number/policy or was this a special occasion?

wrote on Mar 30^th, 2005 at 4:40pm:

Happened to have the radio on at 12 noon today when You and Yours started they had an article about something and then gave out their telephone number it started 0800 does this mean they have changed their number/policy or was this a special occasion?

It's good news if it's a change of policy but, although I've heard them being slated for giving out 0870 numbers before, they've always had a freephone number as well:

0800 044 044

You and Yours confirmed today that the program's 0800 number applies every day. The exception is for "Call You and Yours" day when you have to use 0870, but in defence they said they would call you straight back to minimise the cost.

This came at the end of another supportive piece about the iniquity of 0870.

Basically they came out and backed the position that 0870 and 0845 should be charged the same as national and local rates.

Various comments were made about Government procurement being completely taken in by the providers and not even negotiating the taxpayers a cut of the shareable revenue!!!!

They interviewed Paul Tyler (North Cornwall MP), who seems to have got about 50 MPs to support him. Although the opportunity was missed to highlight the bigger 084/087 problem - he ignored the fact that the new 0844 numbers for doctors' surgeries won't be much cheaper than 0870.

To me, there seems to be three main issues which still need to be communicated clearly:

1. The problem covers 0844 and 0871, as well as 0845 and 0870

2. The problem centres around the exclusion of these numbers from call packages, not just government or public bodies' use of them

3. Contributors to this forum have said that number diversion (eg to various call centres around the country) can be done with a piece of electronic kit, without the need for an 087/084 number. How much and from whom? As this is one of the most common defences used by companies and govt departments.

Does anyone know when OFCOM is going to publish its plan, if ever?

(edited to correct MP's name)

It can be done with a disparate piece of electronic kit termed a "Diverter", but that is no longer now necessary. With modern digital exchanges this and many other functions may be easily done at the exchange to any normal geographic number.

Hi dorf

Thanks for this - so do they just contact BT (or whoever)to have the calls diverted?

It is becoming apparent that the government and its agencies are being ripped off as well as callers.  087x and 084x numbers are aggressively marketed by telecom providers using misleading information.  

All numbers can be routed in the exchange.  United Utilities (North West Water) has an 0845 number. I telephoned the equivalent (01) Warrington  numbers; this was answered in India.

My original post was to defend Y&Y.

What have you who knocked Y&Y got to say now?

I got an e-mail form Ottelo this morning. And a sort of an apology.

It gave me all their geog. numbers.

Come on guys We have won!!

Celebrate

:)

Hi Graham H,

It is not quite as simple as that. I was just talking in the same vein as the previous comment about what can be done technically. If you contact BT and ask them to set a diversion for a GN, they will want to charge for it as an added or star service. If you want a more intelligent process, for example diverting to a selected GN from a list on a sequential basis in order of precedence, or some such process, they will want to charge more for this "service", and they will probably push for you to have an NGN instead, claiming that it may be done much more easily for a NGN. This is not true. Technically it may be done just as easily for a GN or a NGN; it is just that they can make more  revenue from doing it for a NGN, since they originate and terminate most NGN calls.

Quote:

Technically it may be done just as easily for a GN or a NGN; it is just that they can make more  revenue from doing it for a NGN, since they originate and terminate most NGN calls

Isn't this one of the biggest problems faced in trying to discredit the NGNs? BT must rub their hands with glee - in every other country, it appears that the telcos are losing their traditional revenue from voice calls. However, at a stroke, and with the not-so-discreet acquiescence from the toadies at OFCOM, BT have managed to pull off a giant coup to ensure their slice of the voice call revenue is maintained even as inclusive plans and cheap calls proliferate. It seems quite clear to me that they are going to fight a huge rearguard action to maintain this!

I'd liken it to turning off the heroin to a junkie.....  :'(

wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 12:05am:

Isn't this one of the biggest problems faced in trying to discredit the NGNs? BT must rub their hands with glee - in every other country, it appears that the telcos are losing their traditional revenue from voice calls. However, at a stroke, and with the not-so-discreet acquiescence from the toadies at OFCOM, BT have managed to pull off a giant coup to ensure their slice of the voice call revenue is maintained even as inclusive plans and cheap calls proliferate. It seems quite clear to me that they are going to fight a huge rearguard action to maintain this! (

I concur with nearly all your views 101%.  I have always viewed this whole 0870 and 0845 move as a quite deliberate attempt by BT to subvert the superficial attempts of OFTEL over the years to provide alternative methods of making calls at lower prices.

To get around this BT invented a system where there is competition but it is only competition for the call recipients to get the best possible call price revenue and because this charge is so high nobody can then discount the call costs to any meaningful extent for the caller.

My opinion of the effectiveness of Ofcom's predecessor OFTEL is quite frankly unprintable but my attempts to pursue the issue with BT High Level Complaints and OFCOM 4 or 5 years ago proved that BT were simply shameless about the ripoff (they simply lied by claiming the extra 084x/087x call cost was down to the extra costs involved in setting up non geographic routing) and had no intention of doing anything about it.  OFCOM also appeared to be entirely in BT's pocket over this issue and claimed that there was a competitive market for the people receiving the calls and that I also didn't have to call these numbers if I didn't like them (obviously a lie when people like Surrey Police now use them for all contact apart from 999/112 calls).

But you are wrong in one respect though which is that clearly the water at BT has got too hot somewhere now as they now propose making 0870 and 0845 into ordinary priced national calls (by abolishing revenue share on these access codes) in their Ofcom response and also proposed that these should be charged at the same price by phone companies as any other geographic 01/02 call.  The loophole here though is that BT still suggest retaining 0844 and 0871 revenue share although they seem to have no justifiable case at all for this in respect of 0871 and only some case for continued 0844 revenue sharing provided that the use of this code is only allowed for data based  ISP traffic - i.e. their use for voice based doctors surgery traffic should be banned

So it has rather suited the main BT board to let 0870 grow like topsy while the matter remained in the dark like mushrooms but now it is out in the open the BT board doesn't seem to want to have to defend it.  But Ofcom still seems to want to defend 0845 and 0870 presumably because of all the very messy potential litigation between telephone companies and people like the Home Office and the Police that may ensure if 0845 and 0870 revenue kickbacks are now summarily axed. And as we know Oftel and especially its senior staff are  still basically in the pocket of Tessa Jowell and her other government cronies.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:08pm:

Hi Graham H, It is not quite as simple as that. I was just talking in the same vein as the previous comment about what can be done technically. If you contact BT and ask them to set a diversion for a GN, they will want to charge for it as an added or star service.

Dorf,

Things are worse than you say regarding the costs of using BTs *21*number# and *61*number# and *67*number# call diversion services on geographic numbers as I have this feature on my line but find that BT refuses to accept a number if I prefix it with 18866 or 1899 for instance.

It was this extra extortionate diversion call cost for geographic numbers that persuaded many one man businessmen to start using 0845 numbers and of course at the time it did cost no more than a BT local rate call and was cheaper than the BT national rate although it still cost more to anyone signed up for a call plan like BT Option 3.

I'm sure this must be worth following through as a high level complaint with BT and then onwards to Otelo as I pay BT for this service to divert but I don't see why this should limit me to only being able to divert calls over their network at their call prices?!!  Surely that would be anticompetitive?

I agree NGM, things are probably worse than I indicated, but I was not attempting to define the degree of problems previously, only to comment on some aspects of the problems.

As you say, it is outrageous and anti-competitive of BT to prohibit you being able to divert using a cheaper call carrier. However, that is typical of what we have come to expect from BT, solely because the supposed regulator never does what they should do to stop these anti-competitive tricks.

What you could do of course is to purchase a diverter stand-alone product, which would then not incurr any charge for a star service, and could be used to divert via any carrier you choose. The only problem I believe you will find is that there are now no diverters approved by BEAB or whoever the current approver is for connection to the network. (This was yet another trick to destroy competition, to withdraw the possibility of official approval for these.) It may be difficult to buy one any longer in the UK since it may be actually illegal to sell them in the UK now. You might have to source it on the Internet.

If you do get one you would not be legally allowed to connect it to the PSTN, although of course in the circumstances people do so illegally, which is hardly surprising now that the possibility of approval has been taken away! Your only cost then is essentially the up-front cost of the diverter and its maintenance. Of course if you don't already have a second line that would be an additional cost which could tip the balance against your own diversion, but you could consider using a PAYG mobile permanently powered-up from the mains which would not incurr any additional line cost.

At a quick look there seem to be some other telcos offering diversion services, but it is not altogether clear which of them offers this for GNs, but one or two may be cheaper than BT?

A quick trawl came up with the following cos who offer diverter units:

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture1/gida/supplier.html

http://www.woodtel.com/

http://www.design2000.com.au/home/home.html

On one site there is even a simple circuit to build your own!

http://www.hackcanada.com/blackcrawl/telecom/p50-09.html

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 2:00pm:

What you could do of course is to purchase a diverter stand-alone product, which would then not incurr any charge for a star service, and could be used to divert via any carrier you choose. The only problem I believe you will find is that there are now no diverters approved by BEAB or whoever the current approver is for connection to the network. (This was yet another trick to destroy competition, to withdraw the possibility of official approval for these.) It may be difficult to buy one any longer in the UK since it may be actually illegal to sell them in the UK now. You might have to source it on the Internet.

My mum has an 8 year old top of the range (then £169) Panasonic standalone digital answerphone.

That unit contained a feature for the answerphone to then dial you on a number of your choosing with any new answerphone calls received.  The number dialled could of course contain an indirect prefix code.

This had various possible advantages such as people in the UK not being aware you were away overseas as they obviously are if they call you on a mobile and get an overseas ringing tone.  But I have been looking to buy such a digital answerphone now myself and even the top of the range Panasonic unit now seems to lack this feature.  So may be BT got their bros at OFTEL to ban this feature in the UK so as to further ramp up their profits.

I don't have a second home phone line but I do have broadband so some form of PC system to answer the calls and then forward the calls via voice over IP seems a possibility but a lot of hassle to set up compared to the anticompetitive, primitive and yet simple to use BT alternative.

But in a nutshell BT's call diversion facility is only making a call on your line that you could make yourself so why are you deprived of the normal choice of call carriers.  And so far as I can see no one can intercept and divert a call on your line without answering it other than BT itself so it is glaringly anticompetive if you can't use whatever telco you want.  Especially when BT has the cheek to make you pay for the existence of the call diversion facility!

What happens with BT Option 3 customers?  Do they have to pay call diversion costs on top at normal BT call rates even though they can dial 01 and 02 numbers directly for free?

I have no respect for BT.  They are a completely unethical company and frequently behave like the Mafia.

Well NGM the Panasonic instrument way is one way to achieve a message being delivered with one line only for sure. However, the point is that usually companies or individuals having a need for diversion do not want the caller to realise that the call is being diverted. Properly designed diverters therefore present a constant ring tone to the caller until the call is answered at the remote location, so they cannot hear that they have been diverted. There is no way you can do that with the Pansonic approach.  They are aware that you have not answered and that they have left a message on your answering machine.

With all due respect though, with BT's service you are not actually dialling a call out on your own line, so it is understandable that it is a BT carried call internally. The process actually takes place at the exchange. The call does not even get to your line. It is diverted before that within the exchange I think you will find.

That is why I suggested looking at the competition. It seems there may be other telcos out there who are offering a similar service to BT but one might be cheaper? (Some PABXs will also divert, but you still need more than one line of course.)

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 4:08pm:

Well NGM the Panasonic instrument way is one way to achieve a message being delivered with one line only for sure

Dorf,

I actually find the Panasonic answering machine call forwarding way quite adequate though since although the party calling do know that you did not answer the phone you can always make out that you were in the loo, getting the chicken out of the oven or whatever at the time.  Of course I suppose the fact that your call back is not from the home CLI might give the game away though.  Of course one might well ask why the BT diversion on no reply feature makes it obvious to the caller that you are not at home but then we are talking about a 1980s system X exchange feature that has not been improved or enhanced one jot in the interim (one cannot even say the number of rings after which a divert on no reply call diversion option should cut in on a BT line).

I suppose that the seemless hidden divert is really what I want but it sounds like I may have to wait for VOIP to become more widespread before it is available.

Ultimately of course when VOIP is widespread you might not have a separate home number and a mobile number and the call will just route to your VOIP access point on whatever device you have currently enabled.

By then 084/087 scam may well be consigned to history, as also may be the commercial entity once known as British Telecom.

Yes, that is all true NGM. If the Pansonic approach fits your purpose in the meantime then that is probably the best solution for you.

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 5:50pm:

Yes, that is all true NGM. If the Pansonic approach fits your purpose in the meantime then that is probably the best solution for you.

Except that Answerphones with the Diversion facilities of the Panasonic unit are no longer available and my mother doesn't want to give up her machine.

Non Geographic Man wrote.....


Quote:

By then 084/087 scam may well be consigned to history, as also may be the commercial entity once known as British Telecom.

Amen to that..... ;D

PS ..and in case you don't think you could ever be so lucky, look at what has happened to AT&T   ;)

wrote on Apr 4^th, 2005 at 6:13pm:

PS ..and in case you don't think you could ever be so lucky, look at what has happened to AT&T   ;)

Also look at what has happened to the BT share price in the last 10 years and look at what will probably happen when VoIP becomes widespread, when/if WiMAX is widely available (making a home phone line unnecessary for broadband) or when BT get told to cut their completely exorbitant quarterly line rental charges.

BT is a classic geriatric business that is too set in its ways to change and so finds it easier to slowly wither  then die instead.

But NGM, if the Panasonic device is no longer apparently available here if you look on the sites I have suggested and others which you could search for you may find an equivalent?