alternative number please?

wrote on Jun 28^th, 2005 at 3:57pm:

alternative number please?

020 8467 ???? or 020 8468 ????

So much information to go on!  

Could you possibly be talking about this surgery?  

Dr FRY & partners
42 High Street, Chislehurst, Kent, BR7 5AQ
Tel: 020 8467 5551

that's the one!

Can I ask what the number was that you had?  Presumably an 0870 or 0845 or 0844?  

If you get through on the number I have supplied, can you please add the details to the unverified listings, using the Surgery Name as well as address.

Thanks

0844 477 8989

The 020 8467 5551 and 020 8467 8467 5669 numbers now give a BT-generated message asking you to redial on 0844 477 8989.

What a coincidence you should be asking about this surgery. I first complained to Chislehurst Medical Practice on 4th June 2005 about the 0844 number, but did not get much of an explanation. Therefore on 9th June, under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, I requested from Chislehurst Medical Practice their geographic number and how much of the 0844 premium they receive from NEG. Chislehurst Medical Practice replied on 22nd June 2005 saying that the practice did not hold this information. On 26th June 2005, I explained to them how they could obtain the information and I requested an internal review under the FOI. I threatened to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner's office if they did not comply. I await their reponse and shall publish the geographic number here, as soon as I know it.

Nudger, please contact me via the e-mail address on my web site. As you're obviously another local resident, we should discuss this further.

hihi
well i'm doing this on behalf of my wife..i heard about this website so thought i would give it a go.
another example of rip-off britain..good luck obtaining the number.

I have had another reply from Chislehurst Medical Practice. All my comments and questions are in bold. Their responses are in normal font.

I asked these first two questions not under the FOI, as they were requests for justification, not for specific information.

2. I omitted to mention that 0844 numbers cannot normally be dialled from other European Union countries or from any other country.  This affects those on holiday and business trips who need to contact the practice to make an appointment in advance for when they return to the UK.  It also prevents doctors outside the UK from contacting the practice, for example when a UK patient is unexpectedly receiving treatment abroad.  In light of this, please justify your sole use of an 0844 number with no alternative from non-BT networks.

In response to point (2) our telephone number for dialling the practice from abroad is 0870 4299783.

3. Do you agree that when patients call your 0844 number, patients are funding the cost of your new telephone system?

In response to point (3), we do not agree with your statement.  Of course this revenue contributes towards some of the costs of the system, but the main cost is borne by the practice.  Our decision to replace and the choice of system was made in the interests of our patients and improving our service to them.  We have received positive feedback from patients that the service is both user friendly and provides much improved access to the surgery.

I asked the following questions as a request for an internal review under the FOI:

4. As I have mentioned before, all non-geographic numbers (e.g. 0844) route to an underlying geographic number (e.g. 020).  Therefore in order to receive calls via NEG's 0844 number, Chislehurst Medical Practice needs to rent normal telephone lines from a physical line provider such as BT.  These physical lines installed in your building will have at least one geographic telephone number starting 020.  It is this telephone number that I have requested from you under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.  Because you rent these physical telephone lines, you know their telephone number(s).  The number(s) appear on the practice’s telephone bill and you have to supply the number(s) to NEG in order for them to set up the routing of the 0844 number to the 020 number(s).  Failing that, using the practice’s main line, you could try dialling 17070 free of charge to hear the line’s number or alternatively dial 1470 followed by your mobile number and see what number appears on your mobile’s display.  I do not accept that the information is not held by the practice, as it is available to you by a number of means.

With respect to point (4) Chislehurst Medical Practice does not rent the line from BT, it is owned by NEG.  NEG have not indicated to us the 020 router number which you have requested, therefore we do not hold this information.

6. I can well understand if you do not know how much of the 0844 premium that NEG receives, but my question clearly related both to you and to your service provider (NEG).  Please therefore state how much per minute Chislehurst Medical Practice receives from NEG as a share of the 0844 premium.  If the figure is zero, then please state this.  I do not accept that the information is not held by the practice, as you must know how much revenue you receive.

With respect to point (6) we do not hold a written contract stating the rate of call sharing.  However having contacted NEG we are told it will be 2p per minute.

Chislehurst Medical Practice have offered to have a meeting with me to resolve this.

wrote on Jul 6^th, 2005 at 7:53pm:

3. Do you agree that when patients call your 0844 number, patients are funding the cost of your new telephone system? In response to point (3), we do not agree with your statement.  Of course this revenue contributes towards some of the costs of the system, but the main cost is borne by the practice.  Our decision to replace and the choice of system was made in the interests of our patients and improving our service to them.  We have received positive feedback from patients that the service is both user friendly and provides much improved access to the surgery.

Of course, this contradicts itself. "The main cost is borne by the practice," so what about the rest? The revenue from the 0844 doesn't pay for it, or does it? ???


wrote on Jul 6^th, 2005 at 7:53pm:

With respect to point (6) we do not hold a written contract stating the rate of call sharing.  However having contacted NEG we are told it will be 2p per minute.

From the FOI reply from the Department of Health posted in this thread, it appears that most surgeries receive 2p/min, but that that revenue goes straight back to NEG to pay for the 'system'!

Please be aware that Chislehurst Medical Practice have discovered this thread and they are far from thrilled about me posting their FOI responses here. This thread intermittently appears on Google, so I am guessing other patients discovered it and raised the issue with the practice. For the benefit of those who arrived at this page from a search engine:

SUMMARY

In early 2005, Chislehurst Medical Practice disconnected its 020 8467 5551 and 020 8467 5669 numbers and replaced them with 0844 477 8989. From a BT line, this new 0844 number costs at least 67% more than a normal local/national call, because it is a revenue-generating number. Chislehurst Medical Practice receives 2p per minute for all incoming calls from patients on its 0844 number, which the practice puts towards its own telecommunication expenses. The 0844 number cannot be dialled from some types of UK phone line or from most lines outside the UK. This is particularly problematic if you are travelling outside the UK, and you or a foreign doctor need to contact the practice, for example in an emergency.

NFH.
You might like to add the actual cost of dialling it is 5p a minute from a landline,and from other providers it can be dearer eg OneTel.5.50p a min.

Also that it is even more expensive to call from a payphone,and from mobiles eg someone on O2 payg online would have to pay 35p a min to ring it at peak rate.
(I thought the Govt were suppose to be making the Health Service more accessible!!!!).

After I recently drew the attention of Chislehurst Medical Practice to their contact details listed at http://www.nhs.uk/england/doctors/Summary.aspx?orgcode=G84010&prmid=BR7+5AQ^1, they have quickly updated this page and additionally introduced an 0844 fax number (although they have listed their 0844 phone and fax numbers the wrong way round). The existing 020 8468 7658 is still answered by a fax machine, and I am guessing that the new 0844 8840134 fax number either routes to 020 8468 7658 or it is possibly a separate fax-to-email service. I doubt they will disconnect their 020 fax number, because when sending a fax, it cannot be guaranteed that the sender would hear a network message announcing the new number, and such a disconnection would cause confusion and disruption.

As someone who sometimes advises the Department of Health and NHS, I am horrified that public authorities of any kind use these numbers.

I checked and found that an old colleague of mine now has a top position at the Department of Health as Head of Primary Care and that he has banned the use of 0870 and 0871 numbers by GPs and that other numbers, such as 0844 are being reviewed.

In this case, I would suggest that you write to the Chief Executive of the Primary Care Trust (which is responsible for the GP's NHS work) drawing attention to the Department of Health's letter and asking him/her to review the GP practice's use of these numbers.

I have included the URL below, but the Department does tend to move its web pages about. I would have attached the letter as a link, but I don't know how to do that.
http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAndStatistics/LettersAndCirculars/DearColleagueLetters/DearColleagueLettersArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4108437&chk=zYfvJR

Nice to have you on board Thog and thanks for the link.

Please have a read of at least a couple of (long) threads to see what members here see as the problems which need to be addressed.

First, there's THIS THREAD about GPs' use of 0870/0844 numbers.

Second, there's THIS THREAD about 49p/minute Patentline (and similar) telephony etc..

If you get the chance when advising the NHS, tell them about THE REAL WORLD where people have to budget their own money and not the government world where taxpayers' money (not 'government' money as it's frequently called in/on the media) is spent without thought for the consequences.

wrote on Jul 6^th, 2005 at 7:53pm:

2. I omitted to mention that 0844 numbers cannot normally be dialled from other European Union countries or from any other country.  This affects those on holiday and business trips who need to contact the practice to make an appointment in advance for when they return to the UK.  It also prevents doctors outside the UK from contacting the practice, for example when a UK patient is unexpectedly receiving treatment abroad.  In light of this, please justify your sole use of an 0844 number with no alternative from non-BT networks. In response to point (2) our telephone number for dialling the practice from abroad is 0870 4299783.

Idiots. Exactly the same problems will exist with terminating 0870 from overseas as it does with 0844. I would be inclined to raise this again. Ofcom has described the difficulties with terminating NGNs from overseas, therefore it should be straightforward to provide a 'real' number. This one really needs to be followed-up in my opinion. Do you have an e-mail address for the surgery? I'd be happy to submit my own FOI request, although I'm not a patient, and it may be a little tenuous. This one is particularly important as it is an NEG scam.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 4:37pm:

Idiots. Exactly the same problems will exist with terminating 0870 from overseas as it does with 0844. I would be inclined to raise this again.

I raised this with them on 9th July as follows:

"You gave 0870 4299783 as the number to call from abroad.  Please note that 0870 numbers cannot normally be called from abroad and the same applies to most numbers starting 08.  For example, following the recent London bombings, there has been considerable condemnation in the press at the use of an 0870 number for the Central Casualty Bureau, as it cannot be dialled by friends and relatives of victims from outside the UK.  As a result, the Metropolitan Police have been forced to publish a normal 020 number.  Likewise, you will need to operate on a number starting 01 or 02 for it to be universally accessible."

Chislehurst Medical Practice declined to respond to this particular point.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 8:40pm:

I raised this with them on 9th July as follows: "You gave 0870 4299783 as the number to call from abroad.  Please note that 0870 numbers cannot normally be called from abroad and the same applies to most numbers starting 08.  For example, following the recent London bombings, there has been considerable condemnation in the press at the use of an 0870 number for the Central Casualty Bureau, as it cannot be dialled by friends and relatives of victims from outside the UK.  As a result, the Metropolitan Police have been forced to publish a normal 020 number.  Likewise, you will need to operate on a number starting 01 or 02 for it to be universally accessible." Chislehurst Medical Practice declined to respond to this particular point.

So what is the current status of your FOI request? Have you exhausted all possible appeal processes? If so, then you may wish to appeal to the Information Commissioner. The surgery cannot pick and choose what it wants to respond to. Ask specifically for the geographic (probably 02) number. If it declines, report to the IC, the DOH and your MP. It only takes one number to be provided and this whole NEG rip-off should collapse. Any surgery number *must* be universally accessible. As has been pointed out elsewhere, not all UK providers will route to 0844 and 0870, let alone foreign providers. The use of 0844/0870 by health providers is nothing short of irresponsibility.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 8:54pm:

So what is the current status of your FOI request? Have you exhausted all possible appeal processes? If so, then you may wish to appeal to the Information Commissioner.

Chislehurst Medical Practice originally failed to provide information in response to either of my FOI questions (to reveal the underlying 020 number and to disclose how much revenue they receive from the 0844 number) until I requested an internal review. Following that, they told me they earn 2p/min from the 0844 number, but they said they did not know the underlying 020 number. They said that NEG provide the physical incoming line (so the practice does not receive a bill from BT showing the 020 number). I therefore suggested that they try dialling 17070 to hear the line’s number or alternatively dialling 1470 followed by a mobile number to see what number appears on the mobile’s display, but they will not even tell me whether they have tried this procedure. In any case, it relies on the NEG-provided line(s) having outgoing call capability, which may not be the case. The question therefore becomes one of whether the practice cannot or will not divulge the number. To date, I can only speculate on the answer to this important question. Without knowing whether the practice is capable of obtaining its underyling 020 number, I do not yet know whether it is appropriate to refer the matter to the Information Commissioner's office. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the NEG setup can advise.

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 10:25pm:

Chislehurst Medical Practice originally failed to provide information in response to either of my FOI questions (to reveal the underlying 020 number and to disclose how much revenue they receive from the 0844 number) until I requested an internal review. Following that, they told me they earn 2p/min from the 0844 number, but they said they did not know the underlying 020 number. They said that NEG provide the physical incoming line (so the practice does not receive a bill from BT showing the 020 number). I therefore suggested that they try dialling 17070 to hear the line’s number or alternatively dialling 1470 followed by a mobile number to see what number appears on the mobile’s display, but they will not even tell me whether they have tried this procedure. In any case, it relies on the NEG-provided line(s) having outgoing call capability, which may not be the case. The question therefore becomes one of whether the practice cannot or will not divulge the number. To date, I can only speculate on the answer to this important question. Without knowing whether the practice is capable of obtaining its underyling 020 number, I do not yet know whether it is appropriate to refer the matter to the Information Commissioner's office. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the NEG setup can advise.

Yes I can see the difficulty with this one. The practice may, genuinely, not know the 020 number. The question is should it be able to get this information from its supplier, NEG, under the terms of the FOIA? Another possibility is making a FOIA request directly to NEG. Whilst it is a commercial body, it has a contract with a government body (ie the practice/NHS). I don't know whether this will work. What I do know is that if this one can be cracked, NEG will be in a difficult position.

Not wishing to appear negative, I would point out the obvious scenario that nobody has yet foreseen, and that is that the switchboard may now be using VOIP.  :-/

The previous geographical surgery number (now with a recorded message pointing to the 0844) providing the BT connection, with ADSL for use by their computer network and the switchboard VOIP.

Sorry to say but it seems like that's an obvious route to go, but it puts the kybosh on anyone wanting the underlying Geo number - it won't have one !!

Try looking for their domain IP address if it's fixed, which if info I have is correct, it should be.

Now all we need is a Telecoms engineer to assist us from here. Didn't we have one join us recently  ???

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2005 at 11:33pm:

Not wishing to appear negative, I would point out the obvious scenario that nobody has yet foreseen, and that is that the switchboard may now be using VOIP.

I e-mailed NEG a few days ago asking whether Surgery Line delivers calls to GP practices via VOIP or POTS. Numerous people at NEG read my e-mail, given the number of read receipts I received back, but nobody had the courtesy to reply to this simple question.

I escalated this to the Healthcare Commission for an independent review in October 2005, and a year later, I have just received the decision of this review (on 4 sides of A4).  The Healthcare Commission has unfortunately concluded that Chislehurst Medical Practice "is within its rights to operate the telephone system that it currently has", but it has also stated that the practice should "investigate whether the number it has advised for it to be contacted from abroad can be accessed" and that "if it is found that it is not possible to contact the practice from abroad, under the current system, it should consider implementing a way for patients abroad to contact it by telephone".  It would be very helpful if members of this board could give anecdotal examples of foreign networks (fixed line and mobile) from which UK 0844 numbers cannot be dialled.  If anyone can specifically test +44 844 477 8989 from networks abroad, that would be really helpful.

I also note that the CLID on outgoing calls from Chislehurst Medical Practice is their 0844 number.  Because of this whole issue, we switched GPs a few months ago, although with some reluctance given the friendliness and competence of one of the doctors in particular.

The more I read these sort of comments, the more I absolutely despair of where the UK is going! What a pathetic and totally irresponsible action on the part of these doctors, and on the part of the spineless and (probably) overpaid Department of Health officials.

I can categorically inform you that the 0844 number cannot be dialled from the USA. It returns a constant engaged tone. God help any patient of this or any other NEG Surgeryline surgery who is visiting here and needs to contact their doctor!

Please use this information, NFH, as you see fit - and I wish you well!

As despicable as it sounds, what you almost hope will happen is that there will be a disaster and the respective doctors AND Surgeryline are sued for every last cent they have!  :(

NFH wrote on Oct 21^st, 2006 at 8:26pm:

I escalated this to the Healthcare Commission for an independent review in October 2005, and a year later, I have just received the decision of this review (on 4 sides of A4).  The Healthcare Commission has unfortunately concluded that Chislehurst Medical Practice "is within its rights to operate the telephone system that it currently has", but it has also stated that the practice should "investigate whether the number it has advised for it to be contacted from abroad can be accessed" and that "if it is found that it is not possible to contact the practice from abroad, under the current system, it should consider implementing a way for patients abroad to contact it by telephone".  It would be very helpful if members of this board could give anecdotal examples of foreign networks (fixed line and mobile) from which UK 0844 numbers cannot be dialled.  If anyone can specifically test +44 844 477 8989 from networks abroad, that would be really helpful.

Ofcom's own NTS statement may provide some useful background regarding terminating calls to +44 844:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement/statement.pdf

4.50 As discussed in more detail in Annex 4, Ofcom has also obtained information from
BT and C&W (the two largest TCPs) on the proportions of incoming 084 and 087
traffic, which originates abroad. Based on this information, Ofcom estimates that
between 1.5% and 5.5% of 0845 and 0870 traffic originates abroad. BT told Ofcom
that it blocks almost all international inbound traffic to 0844 and 0871 numbers
because of concerns about fraud and C&W told Ofcom that they block some traffic
because historically there had been little demand for these ranges to be opened for
international access. It was not possible to estimate reliably the proportion of 0844
and 0871 calls that originate abroad because it is unclear whether BT and C&W are
typical in blocking international access to 0844 and 0871 numbers. If BT is typical it
would suggest that the vast majority of traffic is blocked. However, this hypothesis is
somewhat at odds with the results of the sample survey, which shows that 0871
numbers can be accessed from approximately 20% of foreign networks and C&W,
indicated that it only blocks some inbound traffic to 0844 and 0871 numbers.

Annex 4
4 International access to 0844 and 0871

A4.1 Some CPs and resellers believed that the 0844 and 0871 ranges would be a poor
substitute for some SPs migrating from the 0845 and 0870 ranges because those
ranges can not always be called from abroad. Views on the extent of international
access varied but there was general agreement that it is much more restricted than
for 0845 and 0870 which were generally thought to be accessible from most foreign
networks. Some CPs and resellers believed that 0844 and 0871 numbers can not
be accessed from abroad at all.

A4.9 BT told Ofcom that it blocks almost all inbound international calls to 0844 and 0871
numbers but not calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers because of concerns about fraud.
C&W said that it blocks some inbound international calls to 0844 and 0871 numbers
principally because demand had not been so high historically. Neither BT nor C&W
place any restriction on inbound calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers.

A4.10 Ofcom was unable to produce a reliable estimate of the proportion of 0844 and
0871 traffic that is originated abroad because it is unclear whether BT and C&W are
typical in blocking some/all international inbound traffic to 0844 and 0871 numbers
and because C&W was only able to provide an estimate for 0845 traffic. If BT is
typical it would suggest that the vast majority of traffic is blocked. However, this
hypothesis is somewhat at odds with the results of the sample survey which shows
that 0871 numbers can be accessed from approximately 20% of foreign networks
and C&W indicated that it only blocks some inbound traffic to 0844.

And, from a 'reseller' of NGNs:

http://ssl.numberstore.com/faq.asp

Can my Non Geographic Number be dialled from abroad?

0870 and 0845 numbers may be dialled from most countries, though 0870 is the most dependable of all NGNs for ex-UK calls. If you receive calls from abroad, we would advise you to select an 0870 number in preference to an 0845 number.

0871 and 0844 numbers are closed for inbound international calls and may not be dialled from abroad.

To dial an 0870 number from abroad, simply omit the leading zero after the country code for the UK - ie +44 870 etc.