We already had what seems good news this week regarding the curtailment (in 2007) by the Gambling Commission, of inanely simple TV programme quiz questions with thousands upon thousands of entries to premium numbers to provide TV companies with easy earned money.

But did you see the end of BBC Watchdog tonight? Apparently our friends at ICSTIS (not to be outdone by the Gambling Commission) are also to investigate the Quiz Call channel (and 2 other similar channels) for possible abuses on premium rate lines.

Followed immediately afterwards by "You can contact BBC Watchdog on 0870 . . . . ." No hypocrisy there then.

*** Edited by Dave: Thread title changed now BBC Watchdog have changed from 0870 to 020 ***

Anyone remember the good old days before Anne Robinson had BOTOX injections and watchdog had a Freepost postal address and an 0500 freephone number? ::)

I was thinking about this the other day...

Why doesn't Watchdog do a feature ('expose') this 0870/0845 etc. rip-off... since most peole are ignorant of the costs/money making aspect of this...

Though, then realising that Watchdog, as do many other programmes, make use of these 0870 numbers (like they are not based in London!).

Has anyone ever approached Watchdog on this?

Hypocrits - yes, i'm afraid so - especially since the Beeb is funded by the licence fee...

I did indeed ask Watchdog to investigate to wholesale migration of companies to non geographic telephone numbers.  Before posting my request on their website I read the details about contacting them by phone on 0870---.  It stated the various prices that apply dialling to the 0870 number and the comment that they do not "receive any revenue from the proceeds generated by this number" (where do they go then).  It also stated that the price was 4ppm if dialled between the hours of 18.00hrs and 08.00hrs, which I believe is incorrect as I understand that BT about 6 months ago changed the lower rate times to from 18.00hrs to 06.00hrs.  I asked watch dog to investigate the use of 0870 numbers and pointed out that whilst they may not receive direct funds from the use of the 0870 number the BBC do, I am given to understand, receive benefit in the form of an offset against calls dialled out which shold be mentioned.  I also pointed out the anomaly in the times that the cheap rate applied and asked for their comments.  I also pointed out that the use of the 0870 number would adversly affect those who in all probability could least afford it-i.e. people without a computer who could not communicate by e-mail. I received the computer generated reply but unsurprisingly nothing more!  It appears that this is one topic that Watchdog would prefer not to investigate.  

wrote on Sep 21^st, 2005 at 1:47pm:

Anyone remember the good old days before Anne Robinson had BOTOX injections and watchdog had a Freepost postal address and an 0500 freephone number? ::)

I even remember when they used an 081 and 01 number (yes that was before the days of phONEday)

wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2005 at 11:04pm:

I even remember when they used an 081 and 01 number (yes that was before the days of phONEday)

:o Wow!  You must be sooooo old! ;)

nah not that old, remember phONEday wasnt that long ago, while I was young I was brought up in a middle class life in the 90's and spent most of my life watching cable TV through videotron

tee hee, only kidding. :D

Back to the topic, and I have just emailed Watchdog.  I've basically used davis' post as a template and worked around that, taking care not to make it look too much like a duplicate email.  

Hope you don't mind davis ;D  I have a rather poor imagination I'm afraid :-[

Yeah to all that, but the one that REALLY gets up my nose is the Traffic reports. The beeb wants YOU to call an 0870 to tell THEM about traffic problems which they then air as a "public service". ::)

Although extremely symphatico with most views expressed here I  do not post very often preferring to make direct vigorous attacks on the 0870 pirates who come closer to my life day by day. Should just mention in passing that I wrote to our friendly Watchdog (among many others approx six months ago (It's mentioned in this forum somewhere) receiving the usual indignant nonsense in reply.
Of course at that time they gave the usual speel that it seems EVERY mouthpiece of these company's give these days.
Personally from time to time I need to back off because this lobbying becomes an obsession and I get the distinct impression that we are winning some wars but losing the real battle . I even wrote to BBC feedback recently to ask Roger Bolton to discuss his very own use of the 0870 word when advertising the program....

Sometimes I despair...   Surely the ONLY way is to get at OFCOM and Politician's so as to regulate it away. 'Shame' and exposure does not seem to work.

I must add that I do admire the solid , intelligent determined citizens who contribute regularly to this website... But will we ever 'Win' ?    

wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2005 at 3:12pm:

Sometimes I despair...   Surely the ONLY way is to get at OFCOM and Politician's so as to regulate it away. 'Shame' and exposure does not seem to work. I must add that I do admire the solid , intelligent determined citizens who contribute regularly to this website... But will we ever 'Win'?

Well unfortunately its no good relying on OfcoN because they are a regulator that does not actually work because their regulatory integrity is totally bankrupted by nearly all of their senior posts being filled with people formerly working at senior level in the telecoms or broadcasting companies, some of whom have formerly been some of the main driving forces behind the viral mushrooming of these very same 084/7 numbers. For instance the Ofcom stance on 084/7 is that if the public finds it fairly hard to work out they are being ripped off then there isn't actually a problem!

I find it odd that the regulator for the advertising industry (the Advertising Standards Authority) actually disbars anyone from the direct marketing and advertising industries from serving on their board while Ofcom thinks it is ok for its own staff and its board to be almost entirely comprised of people who have worked at senior level in the telecoms and broadcasting industries.  It would appear that the whole concept of a "confflict of interest" that Mr Nolan has imposed so extensively on the rest of public life has somehow not touched employment criteria used by Ofcom. :o

And you Non Geo are one of those I mention . Those with dogged determination. One who actually does something about trying to redress the balance. One who posts hundreds of encouraging comments . One who chases the scam hounds.

But......... Are we getting anywhere at all  ?

Your comments about OFCOM (N) are well understood.
But Why ? and How ? can they get away with it.

At the risk of repeating the obvious.
Somebody (BT?) came up with an idea to make money.
A Sales team went out and sold the idea.
(REMEMBER THE WHOLE OBJECT WAS PROBABLY TO TAKE MORE MONEY FROM THE PUBLIC and offset (or hold back) the reducing income from telephone calls.

In the marketplace now the majority of companies advertise contact by 087.

Amazingly nobody has managed to 'persuade' OFCOM to legislate that the use of 'National Rate' is nothing but a LIE.

Why Oh blessed Why can they get away with PRINTING on literature 'National Rate' and not be committed to using the correct word PREMIUM. (Trading Standards take note)

I and others have written to M.P.'s . This usually elicits a flurry of paperwork and defence--- Nothing Changes

I have challenged a number of companies only to be given the usual crap (sorry can't think of a better word).

I hear respected broadcasters from the BBC (apparently) reading out the words they have been given to say. I am sure this in most cases is innocent ignorance. I suppose one doesn't expect them to endanger their jobs but godzilla they are citizens too !
They allow the scam to continue. They are not really interested in doing something about it . (It takes us obsessive lot).

In about twenty minutes or so I'll be going down to my 'local'. There I will bore everybody silly about this injustice. When I get back I'll probably respond to that 'customer service' person from Liverpool Victoria to tell her that her response to my considered queries re this are uphelpful and disingenuous. Then I'll sit and watch T.V. into the early hours and contemplate how much longer I can go on with my normal life and NEVER RING AN 0870 number !(sending letters is so much harder)

Fellow participants  H E L P . I really want us to change things.
I really want us to get the majority of Joe Public to become MORE AWARE.

I want this scam stopped.

One of the areas that really annoys me is the INSULT. The insult to our intelligence.

If this amazingly successful conspiracy succeeds  -and it looks as though it will. (I'm ignoring internet progress). I personally will feel like the loser I am.

Look out Pint Of Real Ale - Here I come !

wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2005 at 7:43pm:

But......... Are we getting anywhere at all ? Amazingly nobody has managed to 'persuade' OFCOM to legislate that the use of 'National Rate' is nothing but a LIE.  Why Oh blessed Why can they get away with PRINTING on literature 'National Rate' and not be committed to using the correct word PREMIUM. (Trading Standards take note) I and others have written to M.P.'s . This usually elicits a flurry of paperwork and defence--- Nothing Changes Look out Pint Of Real Ale - Here I come !

Lavillegour,

I very much like your writing style even though it seems to be quite some time since we received the benefit of your own perceptive wisdom here.  Given your amusing comments about the pint of real ale and the lady from Liverpool Victoria I suspect that your forum avatar of Homer Simpson is possibly well chosen. :)  I also get the feeling that you possibly feel as Homer does about the slim prospects of the ordinary citizen righting the many wrongs of this world.

Like you I cannot believe that the overpaid but supine ranks of career enhancing Ofcom employees have still not even found it within their admittedly minimal competence to ban the kind of lies which BT's NTS number selling division still aggressively perpetuates to this very day here.

I understand that banning revenue share itself on 0845 and 0870 is a hot potato and requires consultation and advance notice but after 1st July 2004 (when BT abolished Standard Line Rental and made BT Option 1 the norm) I can see no excuse whatsoever for Ofcom having not immediately sought parliamentary powers or made regulations to ban the use of the words National Rate and Local Rate or for that matter National Call and Lo-Call in connection with the marketing of 0870 and 0845 numbers.  The fact they have still not done so while they go on and on procrastinating on their NTS consultation shows either that they are grossly incompetent, or that they are an utterly powerless regulator or possibly that too many of them simply have no sense at all of the general public interest compared to the commercial interests of telecoms companies.

In my dealings with Ofcom I have so far only come across one senior employee there who does appear to be convincingly motivated by a sense of genuine integrity and public service but what good can that one person do when seemingly surrounded by a sea of more cynical colleagues who seem to take whatever course of action presents the least risk of government censure plus loss of funding and thus ensures the highest possible staff salaries and bonuses and thus also the most generous possible pension scheme.

Also believe me that there is a reason why the 087 and 084 scam goes on and on and on and is almost as sinister and unstoppable an evil force as the mysterious spectre of Bad Wolf in the recent series of Doctor Who.  The sinister force that has in fact allowed 0845 and 0870 to almost endlessly spawn and mushroom like a virus has been a cynical Labour government that had clearly hoped that these 084/7 abuse numbers could be used as a secret source of revenue both for its own governemental activities and also by many of its commercial cronies who now fill top positions across the broadcasting and telecoms worlds.

But there is some hope as only yesterday I received the below unexpected email from Home Office.  This seems to show that despair as we might that little by little our own relentless campaign is starting to get through and may even force perhaps the uk's weakest regulatory organisation (Ofcom) into proposing tough regulagtions that stop this scam.  Well we can but hope for without hope there is no point in our continuing to wage the war......

-----Original Message-----
From: Kerr Kate [mailto:Kate.Kerr@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 22 September 2005 18:30
Subject: Home Office Public Enquiry Number

You have previously raised a concern with the Home Office about the continued use of non-geographic number for the central Home Office public enquiry number.  I am aware that the Permanent Secretary's office advised you that I would be in touch to report any developments in the matter but that was some time ago.  I apologise for the delay in replying which was because the review and subsequent implementation took considerably longer than anticipated.

I can confirm that the Permanent Secretary agreed that the Home Office should adopt a geographic number for its central public enquiry number.  The number is 020 7035 4848 and is now operational.  

The contact page on the website has been changed to reflect the new number and efforts are being made to replace references to the 0870 number with the new number in material such as letterheads and phone directories, however, I anticipate that due to external publishing deadlines some elements of this transition will take in excess of 12 months. During this transitional phase both numbers will be retained so callers are not inconvenienced by having to record the new number and redial.

If you would like further information please contact me.

Katie Kerr
Direct Communications Unit, Home Office
7th Fl. Horseferry House, Dean Ryle Street, London SW1P 2AW
020 7035 4725

FYI: The BBC TV news programme Saturday morning (BBC2 I think) had what looked like a weekly slot for viewers to question the BBC. At the end of the session contact details were put on the screen. The full screen was used giving an 0870 number.

But here is the surprise a very bold message giving the cost of the calls as between 3p and 8p per minutes was given.

This is the first time I have seen the BBC do this. Is this progress?

I assume this doesn't satisfy those making calls from mobiles (I have no experience of this, but from what I've seen on this site I assume mobile users get stung).

And I would prefer a Geographic number given.

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2005 at 1:52pm:

But here is the surprise a very bold message giving the cost of the calls as between 3p and 8p per minutes was given. This is the first time I have seen the BBC do this. Is this progress?

The new ASA guidelines mean they must show the maximum range of costs imposed for calling the BBC on a BT landline.  Unfortunately the cost of calling from say a BT Mobile is not covered by this requirement.  But it is nice to see them complying as it might have been argued that the promotion of this number was not an advert in the traditional sense.

Of course they still haven't got it right as the cost of calling 0870 on a BT landline varies between 1.5p and 7.91p per minute so that should be 2p to 8p per minute rounded up.  Still its nice to see them erring on the side of quoting too high a price.

http://www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2005 at 11:31pm:

nah not that old, remember phONEday wasnt that long ago, while I was young I was brought up in a middle class life in the 90's and spent most of my life watching cable TV through videotron

It shows that the powers that be were not very clever in those days either, they spent millions of pounds on phONEday.

The idea was that they needed more numbers, can anybody remember how many numbers they gained by the process?

In the greater London area where everyones number changed, I believe it was between one and ten.

juby

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2005 at 9:27pm:

It shows that the powers that be were not very clever in those days either, they spent millions of pounds on phONEday. The idea was that they needed more numbers, can anybody remember how many numbers they gained by the process?

The 0171 and 0181 7 digit London to 8 digit 0207 and 0208 prefixed numbers Phoneday change was all the way back on 22nd April 2000 and I believe that finally some time in 2006 we will see the very first 0203 numbers issued because they will finally be starting to run out of 0207 and 0208 number blocks to issue to telcos.

Now these 0203 numbers will be issued anywhere in Greater London finally helping to make people aware the only code for London is in fact 20 and there is no such thing as the 0207 and 0208 phone area.

One wonders why they needed to make the change 6 years before they actually required the extra numbers!!!  Surely the public's understanding would have been better reinforced if the passing of Phoneday had been immediately followed by the issuing of 0204 0205 numbers etc.

And to think that they split 01 into 0171 and 0181 some time in the early 90s to create more numbers only to then realise they had screwed up and needed the 020 code for a reunified London and 8 digits.   And who was behind this big screw up?  None other than OFTEL clearly setting the proud traditions that its successor Ofcom has so resolutely followed. ::)

err NGN youve missed some bits out there.

In the begining there was 01. late 80's early 90's??
then it became 071 and 081 (obviously 7 for inner london and 8 for outer london). middle 90's?
Then phONEday came along, this was a national thing, Remember Bristol changing from 0272 to 0117 9, I think 4 other cities were changed as well? This made the 0171 and 0181.
Ofcom then reliased once again theyd cocked up and decided to change London (and somewhere in wales and Southampton) to 02. 020 7XXX for Inner and 020 8XXX for outer. oh and 023 for southampton just to confuse the issue.

I think theyve already started issueing 020 3XXX numbers, or at least some business have reserved the memorable ones. I think I remember seeing an 020 3 number on the back of some council rubbish.

My mistake as it seems Ofcom issued the first 020 3 block on 1st June 2005 so one of the telcos receiving one has possibly issued one to a customer by now.  So only a 5 year gap then.

I see Phoneday was 1995 when they got rid of 01 and made 0171 and 0181 and then just when we had got used to those they went back to a single 8 digit 020 in 2000.

I believe some of the provinces were also involved in these changes.  Reading 0118 is the change with which I am most familiar.

You seem to have been very quiet lately.  Has work been keeping you busy or something?

wrote on Sep 26^th, 2005 at 9:27am:

You seem to have been very quiet lately.  Has work been keeping you busy or something?

yep, in brighton atm.

wrote on Sep 26^th, 2005 at 5:32pm:

yep, in brighton atm.

What does this ATM stand for?

at the moment?

wrote on Sep 26^th, 2005 at 7:43pm:

at the moment?

This only goes to show that I am not a very big text message sender.

My only previous decode for ATM was from my time living in the USA in the early 80s when it stood for Automated Teller Machine (that's a Cashpoint to us English folk).

And there was I thinking of Asynchronous Transfer Mode as a longstop.   :)

Just what is this texting that you mention?   ;)

atm =
at the moment
automatic teller machine (not just a cashpoint you know!)

wrote on Sep 27^th, 2005 at 12:49am:

atm = at the moment automatic teller machine (not just a cashpoint you know!)

The difference being? ???

I think that the early Cashpoints (a Lloyds name), only gave cash against a punched card that the machine kept - at least that was how my NatWest one worked.
Whereas an ATM lets one do all sorts of other things, including expose your PIN to shouldersurfers and hidden cameras.

Just seen the BBC advert for Freeview. You can get a free guide by calling 0870....

wrote on Sep 29^th, 2005 at 7:12pm:

Just seen the BBC advert for Freeview. You can get a free guide by calling 0870....

What price per minute did or didn't they quote for calling?

wrote on Sep 29^th, 2005 at 7:29pm:

What price per minute did or didn't they quote for calling?

I didn't notice.

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2005 at 1:52pm:

The BBC TV news programme Saturday morning (BBC2 I think) had what looked like a weekly slot for viewers to question the BBC. At the end of the session contact details were put on the screen. The full screen was used giving an 0870 number. But here is the surprise a very bold message giving the cost of the calls as between 3p and 8p per minutes was given.

I saw one of BBC's own adverts on BBC the other day (can't remember what they were advertising) but noted the number was an 0870 and below it stated "standard calls rates apply".

I complained to the ASA about this and got a reply back telling me that BBC's own adverts are outside their remit and to take this matter further contact the BBC themselves.

That to me seems to indicate that BBC regulate themselves with regards to their adverts.

I'm so glad I can complain about BBC adverts to an independant company/organisation!?   >:(

See my emails of yesterday to Martha Kearney of Womans Hour and the editor of the Today program regarding their continued misleading statements that 0870 is National Rate.  On Womans Hour they made such a statment on only yesterday morning's program:-

And yes it does appear the BBC are allowed to regulate themselves but amongst their mangement I have copied in Stephen Whittle, their Director of Editorial Policy as well as the controller of Radio 4 (Mark Damazer) and the head of BBC Radio, Jenny Abramsky.

The fact that other BBC programs are complying with the new ASA guidlines makes it relatively easy to force these renegade programs to comply.

Programs like Womans Hour and Today seem to think they can get away with continuing the National Rate scam just because they have always done it.

In my opinion the BBC should also comply with COI guidance on the matter so at the very least should change from 0870 to 0845

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 30 September 2005 11:48
To: martha.kearney@bbc.co.uk
Cc: colin.dallibar@bbc.co.uk; jenni.murray@bbc.co.uk; sheila.mcclennon@bbc.co.uk; mark.damazer@bbc.co.uk; jenny.abramsky@bbc.co.uk; bruce.vander@bbc.co.uk; tim.davie@bbc.co.uk; mike.southgate@bbc.co.uk; stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk; john.smith@bbc.co.uk
Subject: Why Women's Hour Cannot Continue to Claim Its 0870 Number is "National Rate"

Dear Martha,

I felt I must email you to say how shocked and appalled I was that as the Woman's Hour presenter who is most involved in current affairs and political issues with the BBC you could still state on today's program that one of your 0870 numbers was a "National Rate" call.

Surely as someone also involved on programs like Newsnight you cannot be unaware of the continued public controversy over this issue and Ofcom's press release on this matter only yesterday.

You and your Women's Hour Producers just cannot go on claiming that this 0870 number is a National Rate number in view of the following:-

Most important is the recent ASA guidance on the description of calling costs given for 0870 numbers which I have heard several other recent BBC broadcasts in recent days complying with and the recent BBC2 series Coast complying with:-

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

This says you:-
must not describe calls to those numbers as being charged at ‘local’ or ‘national’ rate.
must state the maximum cost of calls to BT customers and indicate that call costs using non-BT phone lines may vary.  (This would amount to saying calls can cost between 3 and 8p per minute for BBC customers using BT depending on the time of day at which they call).
Also as a BBC political commentator on Newsnight are you not aware of the recent parliamentary early day motion on this matter where over 20 MPs signed a motion deploring the use of 0870 numbers by government contact centres?

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&SESSION=875

Paragraph 1.3 of The below submission by Leicestershire Trading Standards to Ofcom also made it clear that anyone stating that 0870 calls are "National Rate" may be committing an offence under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987:-

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

I must therefore ask you to stop going on stating that 0870 numbers are National Rate when new guidelines from the ASA make it perfectly clear that the BBC just cannot continue to get away with this particular part of its 0870 scam.  Of course for the time being we can't actually stop the BBC using these 0870 numbers but we can force it to state the correct call price for them when it does so.

Regards,

Here is my message to the editor of the Today program on BBC Radio 4

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 30 September 2005 12:04
To: kevin.marsh@bbc.co.uk
Cc: john.humphrys@bbc.co.uk; sarah.montague@bbc.co.uk; james.naughtie@bbc.co.uk; caroline.quinn@bbc.co.uk; edward.stourton@bbc.co.uk; mark.damazer@bbc.co.uk; jenny.abramsky@bbc.co.uk; bruce.vander@bbc.co.uk; tim.davie@bbc.co.uk; mike.southgate@bbc.co.uk; stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk
Subject: Why Today Program Cannot Continue to Misleadingly Claim Its 0870 Number is "National Rate"

Dear Mr Marsh,

I forward below a copy of an email to Martha Kearney sent today which should be self explanatory.

Although I do not listen to your Today program that often for various reasons, and so cannot cite a recent example, I know that you are another offender on persistently misleading the public on the cost of your 0870 calls as being "National Rate".

Can you please desist from this deplorable practice and begin complying with new ASA regulations before I am forced to lodge it as a formal complaint with the BBC's Editorial Board.

Regards,

wrote on Oct 1^st, 2005 at 12:50pm:

I'm so glad I can complain about BBC adverts to an independant company/organisation!?   >:(

I hesitate to say (OK, write) this, but doesn't ofcom regulate broadcasters as well?

wrote on Oct 1^st, 2005 at 1:37pm:

I hesitate to say (OK, write) this, but doesn't ofcom regulate broadcasters as well?

The BBC have all sorts of exemption so only the Board of Governors and Parliament in fact control their output.

NGM, let us know how you on with those replies from the BBC.

wrote on Oct 1^st, 2005 at 2:24pm:

NGM, let us know how you on with those replies from the BBC.

You assume they will reply which they very often don't but at least it made me feel better - I also have an email read receipt to show that Martha Kearney did at least have to read my views.

Unfortunately the BBC would much prefer one to speak via 0870 to BBC Information in Belfast where their outsourced contract Capita seem to train their staff on the same model of bored and disinterested staff who hate their customers as is used by the Ofcom Contact Centre.

I may perhaps get a reply from BBCR4 Controller Mark Damazer (who seems to be quite keen and has replied to one of my emails before) or from Mr Stephen Whittle since BBC editorial policy on describing 0870 as National Rate must surely be his bag.

Here is the reply I have received from the Deputy Editor of Womans Hour which is about a thousand times more helpful and useful than the one I would have received if I had telephone BBC Information on their outsourced 0870 number run by Capita staff in Belfast.  In fact had I telephoned that number I would almost certainly not have received any further response.

So slowly slowly we win the war (in this case not to stop the use of 0870 but merely to stop the blatant bare faced lie that they are National Rate calls) but why should we have to waste all this time and effort when a tough and competent Ofcom (perhaps with a new Policy Director called Mr Ever Alert and Constantly Pushy) could have stopped the whole scam at least two years ago.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Williams [mailto:maria.williams.01@bbc.co.uk]
Sent: 03 October 2005 17:02
Subject: FW: Why Women's Hour Cannot Continue to Claim Its 0870 Number is "National Rate"

Thank you very much for contacting Martha about Woman's Hour's use of the phrase "national rate" to describe an 0870 number.  I have checked and you are quite right - the BBC' s policy is to say nothing when referring to the 0870 number .  We will not refer to it as "national rate" in the future.  However I have also been advised that we cannot give the price, as prices depend on the caller's network provider.
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and please accept my apologies for our error.
Best wishes
Maria

Maria Williams
Deputy Editor
Woman's Hour
BBC Radio 4
Tel:  020 7765 4549
Mob: 07841 004 124

What's the good in that?  They aren't going to give the price so can we assume they'll continue to adhere to BBC's policy of staying silent? ??? ::)

-----Original Message-----
From: Kerr Kate [mailto:Kate.Kerr@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 22 September 2005 18:30
Subject: Home Office Public Enquiry Number


...I can confirm that the Permanent Secretary agreed that the Home Office should adopt a geographic number for its central public enquiry number.  The number is 020 7035 4848 and is now operational.  

The contact page on the website has been changed to reflect the new number...

Katie Kerr
Direct Communications Unit, Home Office
7th Fl. Horseferry House, Dean Ryle Street, London SW1P 2AW
020 7035 4725
[/quote]

As of 1530 today, the Home Office website is still showing the 0870 number. So that's not changed at all then.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 3:30pm:

020 7035 4725As of 1530 today, the Home Office website is still showing the 0870 number. So that's not changed at all then.

Why not email Katie Kerr to complain then with CC to John Gieve (Permanent Secretary) and Charles Clarke.

Or are you relying on me to do that for you?

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 3:19pm:

What's the good in that?  They aren't going to give the price so can we assume they'll continue to adhere to BBC's policy of staying silent? ??? ::)

The good is that they will no longer mislead the public into believing that 0870 is charged at the BT National Rate which is where the whole scam starts.

If people started thinking 0870, "oh, oh danger don't call" then these scamsters would have to change their way.

They should quote the pence per minute rate min/max as well as stopping saying "National Rate" but no doubt I would have to chase Ofcom, the ASA and Stephen Whittle, Mark Thompson and Michael Grade at the BBC to stand any hope of getting this enforced.

If everyone who hears 0870 called National Rate tells these people why they can't do this anymore they will have to stop.

Quote:

Why not email Katie Kerr to complain then with CC to John Gieve (Permanent Secretary) and Charles Clarke. Or are you relying on me to do that for you?

Have just e-mailed Kate Kerr with a request she have a look as to why its not happened. Thought I'd give her a chance before copying in all and sundry.

NGM - I heard Michael Grade being interviewed on Radio 4 Talk Back (about 3 months ago) where he said that all profit made on phone calls from the public went to charity. I got the impression that he did not know of the existance of 0870 numbers nor the extensive use made of them by the BBC. I think he thought that the only time the BBC used premium lines was for things like children in need. Or maybe it was a massive blag that he hoped would not be picked up.

It might be worth pursuing him.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 3:49pm:

Have just e-mailed Kate Kerr with a request she have a look as to why its not happened. Thought I'd give her a chance before copying in all and sundry.

This is off-topic but the HomeOffice's website before it was redesigned did state the geographical number (I checked) but since the redesign someone has put the number back to 0870 probably because they weren't aware that it had changed.  I have emailed them over this.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 2:34pm:

I have checked and you are quite right - the BBC' s policy is to say nothing when referring to the 0870 number .  We will not refer to it as "national rate" in the future.  However I have also been advised that we cannot give the price, as prices depend on the caller's network provider.

The problem is we can't convince them to display the price because OfCOM guidelines don't stipulate they have to, only ASA/CAP.  I am going to mention this (amongst others) in my reply to OfCOM's NTS consultation but I still haven't read it as yet!

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 5:04pm:

NGM - I heard Michael Grade being interviewed on Radio 4 Talk Back (about 3 months ago) where he said that all profit made on phone calls from the public went to charity.

Michael Grade was of course talking of the 09 numbers used for things like Children in Need.  He either deliberately pretended to be unaware of or just possibly was unaware of the 087 revenue share.  If he was unaware he needs to be better briefed in future or consider resigning.

The 087 BBC call centre money seems to go either to Capita, who runs and staffs the BBC's call centres for them and/or possibly all to Cable & Wirlless (who terminate calls to these phone numbers) who I have been told by a senior source at Ofcom give the BBC massive discounts on all their outgoing phone call costs (also with Cable & Wireless) as an offset for the incoming revenue share.  So the 087 payments are a direct subsidy to the BBC's phone service operations by the public that the BBC should be paying for out of their own license fees pocket.  But they hope that because no cheque is written to the BBC and/or Capita that they can get away with it.  The BBC is quite shameless on 087 and refuses to acknowledge or act on the COI guidance for government contact centres (which I believe includes them) or the latest ASA Stop the Call Confusion guidance on the cost of calls from BT lines.

There is a feeble lie sometimes told by senior BBC propaganda merchants that the 0870 calls pay for the handful of BBC Freephone 0500 service but as there must be ten 0870 calls for every one free 05 calls this is clearly a blatant untruth.  For some reason a late night phone in on BBC Radio 5 live uses the freephone 0500 number but I can see no reason why these calls are free as the program appears no different from other BBC phone in shows that use an 0870 number.

Some time ago I added the geographic number for the BBC's Northern Ireland headquarters in Belfast from which switchboard it was possible to be connected, without any objection by the staff, to BBC Information in Belfast.

However since my listing of the BBC Information geographic number on this website, following which the number of calls to the BBC Belfast switchboard asking for BBC Information has clearly skyrocketed, staff on the BBC Belfast switchboard have been instructed to tell callers to ring the 0870 number.  Only if one objects and says one has been connected this way before on their geographic number do they grudgingly now agree to connect you to BBC Information.

Alleluhah and praise the Lord.

Watchdog has just started up on the Beeb and they have announced their "new phone number" starting 020 8.  They have changed to the new number on their website but not yet withdrawn the blurb trying to exuse the use of the 0870 that was previously there:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog and then "Contact Us" link.

It may have taken a while but it seems that finally the Beeb is beginning to get the message.  I wonder if You & Yours will soon be quoting a geographic number for phone calls too.   Or even BBC Information ::)

Anhow this is a big about face by one part of the Beeb.  The water must have been starting to get much too hot for them.

Watchdog on today's programme have announced a new phone number - 020 8535 1000.

It's great to see them use an 020 number, shame they can't display the number correctly!

BBC Watchdog caves in then.  Even they saw the absurdity of a consumer program with a premium number. Even though they didnt explain the significance of their "new number" and the rip-off on their old one.

I am getting the overall impression at the moment the tide is turning in our favour  ?

I believe we should send an email to Watchdog and congratulate them on switching to a geographical number and say how disappointed we are that other programmes/depts within the BBC dont follow their lead.  We could even cc relevant persons in on the email for their reference.

I'm sure NGM has the names of whom we could include. What do you think?

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 7:34pm:

It's great to see them use an 020 number, shame they can't display the number correctly!

Looks like 020 must have worked out cheaper for them than 0500 or perhaps they have also started to get the message about 0500/0800 calls being a ripoff from mobile phones.

Hopefully this will be the Trojan Horse that lets us get 0870 kicked out of the rest of the Beeb  :-/

After all if Watchdog can now get its elaborate call stats and sophisticated call handling on an 020 number then why not the rest of the Beeb.  Its not like they even quoted the 020 as a smaller print alternative to the 0870 number.  They have actually replaced it completely. :o

Well done WatchDog.  But shame on you for taking at least 15 months too long for getting the message. >:(

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 7:41pm:

BBC Watchdog caves in then.  Even they saw the absurdity of a consumer program with a premium number.

I would guess that after a few months when everyone has forgotten that Watchdog used to use an 0870 number themselves, Watchdog will run a story about the 0870 rip-off.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 7:44pm:

I'm sure NGM has the names of whom we could include. What do you think?

I just sent this to Watchdog's general Contact Us link and form which they assure us will be read by their team (if not answered).


Quote:

Congratulations to BBC Watchdog for finally getting the message about your ripoff 0870 number and for adopting an 020 phone number instead, which is covered by inclusive calling plans such as BT Option 3. Now that you have taken this welcome step I hope you will also update your website to remove the blurb about high call costs only applicable to your old 0870 phone number. Congratulations once again for being the first major BBC program to pressurise BBC management to force Cable & Wireless (the Beeb's phone supplier) to give you a normal 020 number instead of a covert premium rate 0870 number. I hope this is only the first of a wave of such changes and look forward to the investigation by Watchdog of the extensive use of 0870 numbers by the BBC for most other contact phone numbers contrary to the advice of Ofcom and the Central Office of Information Guidance for government contact centres (which I consider the BBC to be amongst)

I was watching while also using the computer and haven't got my Tivo to wind back the credits.  Unfortunately their don't acknowledge any of their presenters or producers/directors/editors on their website, unlike most BBC programs.

One could do worse than to email:

michael.grade@bbc.co.uk
mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk
mike.southgate@bbc.co.uk
stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk
tim.davie@bbc.co.uk;
jana.bennett@bbc.co.uk
jenny.abramsky@bbc.co.uk

welcoming this change and looking forward to seeing it adopted in all other BBC Contact Centres like BBC Information.  Oh and why not CC:-

richard.lapthorne@cw.com
steve.double@cw.com
tim.stephens@cw.com

and

paul.pindar@capita.co.uk
rodney.aldridge@capita.co.uk
paddy.doyle@capita.co.uk

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 7:49pm:

I would guess that after a few months when everyone has forgotten that Watchdog used to use an 0870 number themselves, Watchdog will run a story about the 0870 rip-off.

Yes perhaps as You & Yours feel able to cover the 0870 ripoff even though they have an 0870 number.

I think the x million 0870 calls a year to BBC Information would be a very good place to start.

A comparison with the appalling quality of the service offered by the Capita Belfast call centre or with the excellent in house duty offices run by Ch4 and Five could prove very interesting indeed.

Here are the email addresses of the three BBC presenters of the program:-

paul.heiney@bbc.co.uk
nicky.campbell@bbc.co.uk
julia.bradbury@bbc.co.uk

Should you wish to congratulate them on making this change and/or ask when they are going to start investigating the rest of the 0870 scammers.

Curious that they made a big deal that their phone number had been changed but not why.  If I had been them I would have made a virtue of this happening and said it was in response to viewer feedback and new guidance on the use of these numbers by Ofcom.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 5:19pm:

...  For some reason a late night phone in on BBC Radio 5 live uses the freephone 0500 number but I can see no reason why these calls are free as the program appears no different from other BBC phone in shows that use an 0870 number.

Why is it that Radio 2 listeners can phone in on a free number, but Radio 1 listeners must pay 0870 rip-off rates?

NGM, are those email addresses you mentioned have something to do with Watchdog?

My plan is to email Watchdog and a few of their staff to congratulate them but mostly I wanted to ensure I cc'd some big-wig BBC bosses or other relevant head of depts in a hope that they will feel embarassed by Watchdog and possibly (I know I'm dreaming) switch all if not most to of their 0870's to geographicals like Watchdog have.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 9:01pm:

Why is it that Radio 2 listeners can phone in on a free number, but Radio 1 listeners must pay 0870 rip-off rates?

And why is it that You & Yours is not allocated 0500 numbers for all its phone in requirements given its active campaigning stance against 0870 and its generally aggresively pro consumer rights stance.

None of these things make any sense at all but I think Watchdog is the only BBC program receiving a lot of phone calls to have proved that using a geographic number is not an issue.  Of course the BBC's telephony supplier, Cable & Wireless, had already shown us it had a large stock of memorable but formerly redundant 020 numbers available following its mysterious ability to suddenly come up with an 020 number for the Met Police Casualty Bureau in July.  The issuing of this further major 020 number by C&W proves there is no technological obstacle to the use of geographic numbers for modern call centre operations.  The only reason they are not used a lot more is because they are less profitable/more expensive for the call centre operator.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 10:00pm:

The issuing of this further major 020 number by C&W proves there is no technological obstacle to the use of geographic numbers for modern call centre operations.  The only reason they are not used a lot more is because they are less profitable/more expensive for the call centre operator.

I agree totally agree.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 10:00pm:

My plan is to email Watchdog and a few of their staff to congratulate them but mostly I wanted to ensure I cc'd some big-wig BBC bosses or other relevant head of depts in a hope that they will feel embarassed

bbb,

Paul Heiney, Nicky Campbell and Julia Bradbury are the presenters of WatchDog.  The other people in my email list are senior BBC management people (see below).  You may possibly recognise a certain Michael Grade?

I also copied in various relevant people presenting, researching and producing the You & Yours program for obvious reasons.

Like you I hope it will be the start of an unstoppable landslide against the use of 0870 which the BBC management, C&W and Capita cannot resist.  However I suspect that for now it is something which the Watchdog Producer and presenters have been able to insist on because of what they do and doubt it is the start of an immediate Beeb wide trend.  I do however think You & Yours should be able to get hold of 020 or 0500 for its phone calls on the strength of the Watchdog change.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 04 October 2005 22:17
To: paul.heiney@bbc.co.uk; nicky.campbell@bbc.co.uk; julia.bradbury@bbc.co.uk
Cc: michael.grade@bbc.co.uk; mark.byford@bbc.co.uk; mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk; mike.southgate@bbc.co.uk; stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk; tim.davie@bbc.co.uk; jana.bennett@bbc.co.uk; jenny.abramsky@bbc.co.uk; ashley.highfield@bbc.co.uk; richard.lapthorne@cw.com; steve.double@cw.com; tim.stephens@cw.com; paul.pindar@capita.co.uk; rodney.aldridge@capita.co.uk; paddy.doyle@capita.co.uk; bruce.vander@bbc.co.uk; melanie.abbott@bbc.co.uk; rachel.schofield@bbc.co.uk; liz.barclay@bbc.co.uk; john.waite@bbc.co.uk; winifred.robinson@bbc.co.uk; will.yates@bbc.co.uk
Subject: Congratulations to Watchdog on Replacing Its 0870 Ripoff Line

Dear Watchdog,

Congratulations for finally belatedly getting the message about your ripoff 0870 number and adopting an 020 phone number instead, which is covered by the many inclusive calling plans on offer such as BT Option 3.

Now that you taken this welcome step I hope you will also update your website to remove the blurb about high call costs that were only applicable to your old 0870 phone number.  Of course it was good that Watchdog was at least complying with ASA guidelines on calling costs whilst it had its 0870 number, unlike most other BBC programs which stay stubbornly silent on the matter or continue to falsely claim they are "National Rate" calls (a possible offence under Part III of the Consumer Protetction Act 1987)

Also congratulations for being the first major BBC program to pressurise the BBC management to force Cable & Wireless (the Beeb's phone supplier) to give you a normal 020 phone number instead of a covert premium rate 0870 number.

Of course I do find it a little odd that you presumably find that you can now after all make use of "special call handling and routing capabilities that help us deal with your call more efficiently" on a normal priced geographic phone number.  Actually those of us who know about these things know that Cable & Wireless could have offered this facility on an ordinary 01/02 phone number all along.  The only possible reason for not doing so would probably be Cable & Wireless charging the BBC more for its phone lines and phone equipment and/or giving it less offsetiing discount on the BBC's large outgoing phone calls bill.

It does seem very odd that a public service organisation like the BBC has up to now been the uk's leading example of a non profit organisation inappropriately using and marketing these non geographic numbers.

Congratulations once again on making the change although I find it strange that it has taken so long (given the amount of criticism your program has received over the issue) and odd that you did not admit on air tonight why your phone number had been changed.

Let us hope that this change in your program's phone number will be the start of a trend for all BBC contact call centres and program phone lines to drop the use of 0870 numbers.

Regards,

0500?
No, let's have 0800 and seven digits or 0808 numbers (also with seven digits). Some clarity, consistency and convenience for the citizen consumer.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 10:18pm:

0500? No, let's have 0800 and seven digits or 0808 numbers (also with seven digits). Some clarity, consistency and convenience for the citizen consumer.

All other existing BBC Freephone numbers appear to be in the 0500 range.

Are new C&W numbers all 0800 or 0808 then and 0500 purely a legacy Freephone range?

Yup, 0500 is the old Mercury FreeCall range. No new numbers issued - just lots apparently in the woodwork.

wrote on Oct 4^th, 2005 at 11:54pm:

Yup, 0500 is the old Mercury FreeCall range. No new numbers issued - just lots apparently in the woodwork.

You would think they would have been forced to convert to 0800 or 0808 by now given that there is, in any case, no well established public knowledge that 0500 is a Freephone number.

Anyone wanting to market that calling them is free is surely shooting themselves in the foot by using 0500?

But a Select Committe hearing, after considerable lobbying, managed to ensure the reverse - so we have this continued extraordinary mixture.

old 0500 no longer being issued but instead being 'converted' to 0808.

Finally got round to sending my email of congratulatons to Watchdog.

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 3:44pm:

Finally got round to sending my email of congratulatons to Watchdog.

Who did you send it to?

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 4:15pm:

Who did you send it to?

Everyone that was on your list above and also bcc'd david.derbyshire@telegraph.co.uk; jessica.bown@sunday-times.co.uk; oliver.lloyd@mailonsunday.co.uk; jeff.prestridge@mailonsunday.co.uk; dennis.rice@mailonsunday.co.uk; stephen.moyes@mirror.co.uk

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:20pm:

Everyone that was on your list above and also bcc'd david.derbyshire@telegraph.co.uk; jessica.bown@sunday-times.co.uk; oliver.lloyd@mailonsunday.co.uk; jeff.prestridge@mailonsunday.co.uk; dennis.rice@mailonsunday.co.uk; stephen.moyes@mirror.co.uk

Lets hope these people are grateful then.

Unfortunately I find Ms Bown is quite often in the habit of deleting her emails without reading them despite her previous big piece in the Sunday Times regarding the 0845 scam.

None of the Watchdog presenters replied to me which I find more than a little disappointing.

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:24pm:

None of the Watchdog presenters replied to me which I find more than a little disappointing.

I don't expect any replies as such but apart from thank you what else would the presenters be able to say?  They are not going to comment on why they chose a geo and most of the BBC are on 0870's because that would put the BBC in a more difficult position of defending 0870's and not to mention get the presenters in trouble for probably discussing what the BBC would like to keep quiet - the money they gain from their use of 0870 numbers.

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:29pm:

I don't expect any replies as such but apart from thank you what else would the presenters be able to say?  They are not going to comment on why they chose a geo and most of the BBC are on 0870's because that would put the BBC in a more difficult position of defending 0870's and not to mention get the presenters in trouble for probably discussing what the BBC would like to keep quiet - the money they gain from their use of 0870 numbers.

But they did comment a lot on having a new number. ;)

You say they would get in trouble for drawing attention to other BBC programs still having an 0870 but You & Yours have openly criticised both the whole 0870 scam and the BBC for being a part of it.  So I don't quite see exactly how your argument on this holds up?

They could say they had gone to 0870 because they were responding to viewers who had complained 0870 was not part of their inclusive calling plan scheme.  There wouldn't be a need for them to directly criticises other BBC programs for still having an 0870 number.  They could leave it to their viewers to do this.

wrote on Oct 9^th, 2005 at 7:39pm:

..You say they would get in trouble for drawing attention to other BBC programs still having an 0870 but You & Yours have openly criticised both the whole 0870 scam and the BBC for being a part of it.

I didn't know you & yours had criticised the BBC - I wish I could have saw that.

Quote:

They could say they had gone to 0870 because they were responding to viewers who had complained 0870 was not part of their inclusive calling plan scheme.  There wouldn't be a need for them to directly criticises other BBC programs for still having an 0870 number.  They could leave it to their viewers to do this.

Good point.
Companies not responding to emails when the email is bringing up something they don't like (ie highlighting the money they're getting from NGN's, etc and/or the ASA/CAP guidelines on call charge price announcements) is common I've found and not just related to the BBC.

Now we need to get Mr Wogan to stop describing Children in Need's 0845 number as 'local rate'

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 9:58pm:

Now we need to get Mr Wogan to stop describing Children in Need's 0845 number as 'local rate'

I don't think he will be doing that the next time the appeal is on.

Now I am feeling like Dorf because a post someone else made about the BBC You & Yours program using an 0800 number earlier today and my reply to that post saying that I copied in You & Yours on my Watchdog reply have both been deleted from the thread.

What is going on?

ALERT.  ALERT.  HACKER AT WORK :o

Surprisingly I received a reply from the BBC (not Watchdog though) over my email of congratulations. It reads as follows:-

Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the new telephone number for 'Watchdog', which was forwarded to this department for reply. I was pleased to read your very positive comments regarding 'Watchdog's' decision to use a geographical telephone number to contact the programme.  Please be assured that your comments have been registered on a daily log which is widely circulated throughout the BBC among programme makers and senior management. The BBC is currently examining Ofcom's recommendations and considering its response to their consultation. No pan BBC policy decisions have yet been made. We have a clear policy of not using phone lines with the aim of making a profit (unless it is for charity), and different programmes use different assessments to decide which forms of telecom interactivity are most appropriate for them. Watchdog has decided to adopt a geographic number as they believe it is most appropriate for their audience. I hope that this will give you a better insight into our position on this matter and would like to take this opportunity to thank you again for contacting the BBC with the strength of your views. Thank you again for taking the time to contact the BBC. Regards BBC Information

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 9:00am:

Surprisingly I received a reply from the BBC (not Watchdog though) over my email of congratulations. It reads as follows:-

I must say this was a surprisingly well written and intelligent reply by BBC Information standards showing a strong awareness of matters such as the current Ofcom consultation.

I can only assume it was written by staff working for BBC Information in Glasgow or London as the Belfast BBC Information call and correspondence centre, run by Capita, always seemed to have had an ability only to turn out responses that contained unmitigated lies and untruths about 0870.  Of course it is much easier to be open and more honest when the organisation you work for has finally begun to see and repent the error of some of its ways on this matter.

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 9:24am:

I must say this was a surprisingly well written and intelligent reply by BBC Information standards showing a strong awareness of matters such as the current Ofcom consultation...

I mentioned in my original email that the continued use of 0870 numbers by the BBC was against Ofcom recommendations but I didn't tell them about the consultation but they were probably informed by Ofcom in writing I can imagine.  I also said I was sending the email to a well known newspaper so that's probably why they felt they had to respond in case this was mentioned in a news paper.  They did not know which newspaper because I bcc'd them in all in.

I don't think this has been posted - here is a BBC FOI response (not one of mine I would point out) to a request specifically regarding Watchdog.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/foi/docs/freedom_of_information/selected_requests_and_responses/SR2005000572_0845_and_0870_Telephone_Numbers.pdf

More Beeb FOI at http://www.bbc.co.uk/foi/docs/freedom_of_information.shtml

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 11:59pm:

I don't think this has been posted - here is a BBC FOI response (not one of mine I would point out) to a request specifically regarding Watchdog. http://www.bbc.co.uk/foi/docs/freedom_of_information/selected_requests_and_responses/SR2005000572_0845_and_0870_Telephone_Numbers.pdf

How do the BBC manage to claims that Questions 1 to 7 are to do with journalism, art and literature and that thus they don't have to answer them? :o Quite Incredible.

It seems that the BBC have almost no shame in their ceaseless and relentless attempts to perpetuate the 0870 scamming by any means at their disposal.

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 12:12am:

It seems that the BBC have almost no shame in their ceaseless and relentless attempts to perpetuate the 0870 scamming by any means at their disposal.

It also demonstates just how powerful Capita really is in its relationship with HMG.

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 12:16am:

It also demonstates just how powerful Capita really is in its relationship with HMG.

So powerful that they can force the BBC to allow its public telephone based interface for viewer comments to be manned by a bunch of sulky and unhelpful halfwits seemingly especially handpicked for their total disinterest in and/or complete incomprehension of practically all policy based broadcasting issues.

Well not sure how long the 0208 number has been in place as well as the 0870, but at least the 0870 number for Watchdog no longer works, and a message on it advises you to ring 0208 535 1000!  Great!!!

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 1:06am:

Well not sure how long the 0208 number has been in place as well as the 0870, but at least the 0870 number for Watchdog no longer works, and a message on it advises you to ring 0208 535 1000!  Great!!!

This has to be a first.

Usually they always keep the NGN going too (saying they don't want to inconvenience those who have the old number)

WOW! I'm impressed.

I am one of a number of members who have emailed Watchdog and made FOI requests. Finally the message has got through.

Well done folks.

This shows it is possible for NGN's to be dumped and replaced by geographic numbers.

I have noticed they have corrected the mistake of displaying the number incorrectly on the website as 0208 535 1000 and now have it displayed as 020 8535 1000.

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2005 at 12:20pm:

I have noticed they have corrected the mistake of displaying the number incorrectly on the website as 0208 535 1000 and now have it displayed as 020 8535 1000.

They have just displayed the number at the end of the programme as 0208.

now points of view uses an 0870.

That was the last programme I remember that still used a true 020 number.  (obviously excluding watchdog's recently new 020 number)

I thought POV used to have a Birmingham 0121 number.

wrote on Oct 25^th, 2005 at 4:37am:

now points of view uses an 0870. That was the last programme I remember that still used a true 020 number.  (obviously excluding watchdog's recently new 020 number)

I trust you have emailed them to complain?

of course.
doubt we'll be seeing terry talking about the 0870 for a while.

wrote on Oct 25^th, 2005 at 4:37am:

now points of view uses an 0870.

Email POV congratulating Watchdog on its change of number, don't mention the POV one! See if they broadcast your message.  ::) ::)

Hi,

Just caught the tail-end of Watchdog (no pun intended) and they displayed a London 020 contact number. Have Watchdog taken the hint and ditched the 0870 number ?