Their was an inhouse "advert" on BBC 1 last night at about 7.30 p.m.  The "advert" was about their BBC 1,2,3,4  CEEBIES etc, they then asked you to  call 08700 10 10 10 for further information verbally, and also had it displayed on screen with the words in smaller writing "All calls charged at standard rates"  Changing the word from national to standard still means they are conning us as to the true cost of these calls.

Is that the number you can call for a "free" information pack on digital TV services?  ::)

I believe Ofcom has referred to 0870 as "standard rate" in their consultation so they may have got it from there.

"Standard rates" doesn't help us though as people may think what is meant by "standard" is that it is the same price as a geographical call and therefore not nearly 8ppm.

Please complain to the BBC's Director of Editorial Policy Stephen Whittle who should be there to stop precisely this kind of deplorable scamming by the BBC and their disgusting Capita henchmen:-

stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk

Also cc to:- michael.grade@bbc.co.uk and mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk

Do not call BBC Information's 0870 number to complain as this is run by Capital staff who simply place all such complaints in their electronic dustbin.

This might also be worth a complaint to Ofcom who are the only people who can control the BBC over such matters.  Make sure to ask to have your call logged as an official complaint and to be given a reference number for the call.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 11:15am:

Please complain to the BBC's Director of Editorial Policy Stephen Whittle who should be there to stop precisely this kind of deplorable scamming by the BBC and their disgusting Capita henchmen:- stephen.whittle@bbc.co.uk Also cc to:- michael grade@bbc.co.uk and mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk Do not call BBC Information's 0870 number to complain as this is run by Capital staff who simply place all such complaints in their electronic dustbin. This might also be worth a complaint to Ofcom who are the only people who can control the BBC over such matters.  Make sure to ask to have your call logged as an official complaint and to be given a reference number for the call.

I have complained  to Ofcom who tell me they have no control over what is contained on websites and this type of info on tv,i.e not paid for adverts, I can't remember everything that was said as it was a lengthy phone call including other issues, I was told that this type of complaint is dealt with by Trading standards and I have emailed them, am awaiting a reply. However I will forward the complaint to the email addresses you have supplied

NGN,
I have written an email but  when I go to send it I am informed there are "no matches" for michael grade or mark thompson
I copied and pasted the addresses from your post

wrote on Oct 25^th, 2005 at 11:47am:

"All calls charged at standard rates"  Changing the word from national to standard still means they are conning us as to the true cost of these calls.

That's very crafty.   'Standard' giving  the illusion of a single tarrif,   whilst in reality :-  
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. ;)

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 11:52am:

That's very crafty.   'Standard' giving  the illusion of a single tarrif,   whilst in reality :-   The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from

Presumably they attempt to justify this on the basis that 0870 calls are still charged at the tariff that used to be applicable to the millions of BT Standard line rental customers who have now been forcibly transferred to the £9 per quarter more expensive BT Option 1 tariff (£3 more line rental and £6 lost calling allowance).

But the fact is that this tariff now only applies to customers on the BT Light User Scheme so it is anything but Standard!.  But this latest disgrace shows that the BBC will prostitute itself in almost any way that its Capita call centre ripoffs partners in crime tell it to.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 11:58am:

Presumably they attempt to justify this on the basis that 0870 calls are still charged at the tariff that used to be applicable to the millions of BT Standard line rental customers ....

I fancy it's rather just a less illuminating form  of the recently popular :-
 "Calls will be charged at your operators standard rates"  ,   which in reality means ' It's nothing to do with us. Find out from your operator (& don't blame us if you cann't).

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 12:08pm:

I fancy it's rather just a less illuminating form  of the recently popular :-  "Calls will be charged at your operators standard rates"  ,   which in reality means ' It's nothing to do with us. Find out from your operator (& don't blame us if you cann't).

Neither "at standard rates" or "at your operators standard rates" is an accurate statement in the context of 0870.

The BT should just not say anything about the call price if they want to go on scamming but not actively mislead callers.  It is unfortunately clear that the ASA's Stop the Call Confusion guidance unfortunately does not appear to Broadcast Advertising or to the BBC as a body.

So instead normal Trading Standards laws apply.  Under those staying silent on call cost is acceptable but saying things like 0870 is at the National Rate or at Standard Rates is not.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 11:43am:

NGN, I have written an email but  when I go to send it I am informed there are "no matches" for michael grade or mark thompson I copied and pasted the addresses from your post

You need to copy and paste it as

michael.grade@bbc.co.uk;mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk into your email software CC field

Those email addresses were working ok only a few days ago.  Of course if you put my and and between the two email addresses in your cc field it would have caused some problems.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 12:15pm:

Neither "at standard rates" or "at your operators standard rates" is an accurate statement in the context of 0870. The BT should just not say anything about the call price if they want to go on scamming but not actively mislead callers.  It is unfortunately clear that the ASA's Stop the Call Confusion guidance unfortunately does not appear to Broadcast Advertising or to the BBC as a body. So instead normal Trading Standards laws apply.  Under those staying silent on call cost is acceptable but saying things like 0870 is at the National Rate or at Standard Rates is not.

The words Local, National & standard are just now so devalued , suggestive and misleading, that saying nothing..., would be at least..... less un-helpful.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 12:26pm:

The words Local, National & standard are just now so devalued , suggestive and misleading, that saying nothing..., would be at least..... less un-helpful.

In the opinion of Trading Standards at least the BBC would then not be committing an offence under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 as they do every time they make claims that 0870 is National Rate or Standard Rate.

Of course most trading standards offices seem frightened to take on the might of the BBC and Capita legal departments. ::)

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 12:22pm:

You need to copy and paste it as michael.grade@bbc.co.uk;mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk into your email software CC field Those email addresses were working ok only a few days ago.  Of course if you put my and and between the two email addresses in your cc field it would have caused some problems.

That has worked, I originally copied and pasted them seperately into the cc field with a gap between them therefore I would have thought it should have worked, anyway they have gone and I received an outo reply from Stephen Whittle that he is out of the office with a text/phone number for urgent calls.

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 12:43pm:

That has worked, I originally copied and pasted them seperately into the cc field with a gap between them therefore I would have thought it should have worked, anyway they have gone and I received an outo reply from Stephen Whittle that he is out of the office with a text/phone number for urgent calls.

You always need a ; (semi colon) between each email address entry in the To, CC or BCC fields in any email with multiple recipients.

You mean you have never cc'ed more than one person before ??? :o

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 1:13pm:

You always need a ; (semi colon) between each email address entry in the To, CC or BCC fields in any email with multiple recipients. You mean you have never cc'ed more than one person before ??? :o

Thats right I haven't, but hey,we all have to learn ;D  so that's a ( ; ) if cc,ing more than 1 recipient?

AlthoughI am pretty certain that I have sent mail to more than 1 addressee in the address bar and have never used       ;  or is that different?

I have just tried multiple addresses in the "to" bar and when using them previously I have got them from my address book, and it puts the  ;  in automatically  :-[

wrote on Oct 27^th, 2005 at 1:13pm:

You always need a ; (semi colon) between each email address entry in the To, CC or BCC fields in any email with multiple recipients.

Actually, according to RFC2822 (the official specification for internet e-mail) multiple addresses should be separated by a comma. As usual, Microsoft have just decided they can't stick to a perfectly good specification. Apparently, in Outlook 2003, it's not possible to use a comma as a separator without turning on some obscure option that's hidden away somewhere, causing problems for anyone who tries to paste in a list of addresses.

However, when it actually sends a message, I think Outlook does change the separator to commas for the mail header, otherwise it probably wouldn't get to all the recipients! When you receive a message, it turns all the commas back to semi-colons to display tham (e.g. if you quote a message in a reply). How silly!

Just received the following email:


Dear Mr ******

Further to my previous email, I can now tell you that we are discussing with the BBC the description of 0870 numbers and their associated costs.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Ritu Manhas



:: Ritu Manhas
  Programme Executive
  Content and Standards
  +44 (0) 20 7981 3853
  ritu.manhas@ofcom.org.uk

:: Ofcom
  Riverside House
  2a Southwark Bridge Road
  London SE1 9HA  
  www.ofcom.org.uk



Things MIGHT be looking up!

Just received the following from the BBC:-


Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your e-mail concerning the BBC?s use of 0870 numbers.  I would like to apologise for the delay in replying.  We know our correspondents appreciate a quick response, and it is a matter of regret to us that you have had to wait on this occasion.

I was sorry to learn you feel the BBC is misleading its audience by using these telephone numbers for phone-ins, competitions and other purposes.  I understand you consider it wrong to describe these as ?standard rate numbers?.

If I may explain, the BBC gave considerable thought to the appropriate use of national rate numbers and decided that callers to the BBC should pay the same costs regardless of where they were calling from, and those costs, typically should be no more than the price of a stamp.  Calls to such numbers work better in terms of routing, meaning the caller is transferred to their chosen option quicker.

The rebate available for using 0870 numbers is waived by the BBC in return for better telephone services such as the best automation technology, meaning the caller is on the phone for the shortest amount of time.

The important operational and technical advantages in 0870 numbers compared with geographic numbers such as 0207, 0141 include the fact that 0870 calls (and the other 'intelligent numbers' as they are called) can be routed to different places, such as our different call centres, at different times.  Unexpected peaks in demand can also be coped with through 'call gapping', prioritising the different types of call and by pre-recorded messages.

In addition, the BBC partners such as Capita, and their sub-contractors, deliver services according to contractual agreements.  0870 and other special numbers enable sophisticated statistical reporting to assist both us and our contractors to manage the performance and effectiveness of the call centre.  These advantages would be lost with geographic numbers.

I can furthermore assure you the BBC has strict guidelines which govern the use of premium rate lines.  They are only used where necessary, for example to register mass audience reaction quickly and robustly, such as in voting.  Charity calls such as for ?Children in Need? are the only exception to this.

Nevertheless I appreciate you take a different view.  I will therefore ensure your comments on this matter are registered for the benefit of BBC management and for circulation throughout the BBC.  Feedback such as this enables us to monitor audience reaction and develop future policy and programming.

Thank you for taking the time to contact the BBC.

Regards

Alison Duncan
BBC Information

wrote on Nov 10^th, 2005 at 4:56pm:

Just received the following from the BBC:- ..... the BBC gave considerable thought to the appropriate use of national rate numbers and decided that callers to the BBC should pay the same costs regardless of where they were calling from .......

That old chestnut!  Do none of them ever check their own telephone bills?

In case they're reading:

It costs 3p/minute to call ANY 01 or 02 number from a BT residential line - distance MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

It costs 2½ times as much (7.51p/minute) to call an 0870 number from the same BT landline.

wrote on Nov 10^th, 2005 at 5:39pm:

That old chestnut!  Do none of them ever check their own telephone bills? In case they're reading: It costs 3p/minute to call ANY 01 or 02 number from a BT residential line - distance MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. It costs 2½ times as much (7.51p/minute) to call an 0870 number from the same BT landline.

I have already emailed back with that statement and a few more choice comments, also made the point that it is a 150% premium on an 01/02 number, I think it makes a better impact.

Dear Old Beeb,  they still prove my old schoolteacher's adage "You CAN fool most of the people ALL of the time - as long as you ACT innocent when questioned about it".

The BBC are quite unbelievable serial liars over 0870.

No matter that the COI say that it is inappropriate for  government centres to use 0870 and no matter that the ASA say that the term national rate must not be used BBC Disinformation in far flung Belfast remains unwilling to accept this and keeps quoting from a propaganda sheet drafted 3 or more years ago.

Goebels himself would have been proud of BBC Disinformation which is a propaganda machine of the very worst kind that employs lobotomised and robotic call centre agents who keep on churning out the same old lies to thousands of complainers on 0870, while those complaints are persisently ignored by the BBC's cynical and abusive New Labour management, who only hear those comments from the public that they actually want to hear.

The BBC is the only public sector organisation apart from the Inland Revenue that I have encountered that is deliberately and cynically abusive about 0870 and where all comments and complaints by the public are just rebutted with an out of date lie that the cynical and manipulative organisation cannot even be bothered to update to a more convincing one.

To get anywhere on this issue you need to say you are dissatisfied with the BBC's response and ask to have the matters looked at by thinking and sentient life-forms (which the propaganda boiler stokers at BBC Disinformation most certainly are not) in the organisation and specifically the Governors Complaints Commmitte which Mr Bruce Vander, who works at senior level in BBC Disinformtion in London, confirms can be asked to review BBC Disinformation propaganda line on this issue.


Quote:

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaints_process.shtml#what What can I do if I don't like the reply?Please reply initially to the person who responded to you and outline your concern. If your complaint is about a specific programme, and you believe it breached the BBC's editorial standards, you can ask the independent Editorial Complaints Unit (ECU) to investigate. The unit examines such complaints independently. We will help you contact the ECU but its address is BBC, Media Centre, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TQ. If you dispute the ECU’s ruling you may appeal to the Governors’ Programme Complaints Committee.

Ask to confirm with BBC DisInformation that you have reached deadlock in your complaint with them over 0870 costs and that either the Editorial Complaints Unit or the Governors Complaints Committee is the appropriate place to make the complaint.  In my case they seemed to recommend the Governors Complaints Committee since the 0870 policy comes from board level and is not the fault of individual programme makers, most of whom do not want to have to use these numbers.  You might particularly like to ask the Governors why the late night Radio 5 program uses an 0500 Freephone number and other phone ins don't and why Watchdog uses a geographic number and other programs don't.

Yes I agree

You could also hammer home that Radio 2 gives out 0500 288 288 and that the BBC1 TV prog, watchdog has now finally ditched its 0870 number for a 0208 one.

I wonder who made that decision (glad about it) and if it can be done here then why not throughout the whole of the BBC.

The way they announce the 0870 numbers are even more misleading, for example Radio 1 says 08700 1 10 100. 'o-eight seven hundred' does not sound as bad as 0870

The Governors Complaints Committee is the only way to get the 0870 issue out of the cynical Capita manipulated hands of BBC Information and to instead have the matter reviewed by other intelligent and free thinking life forms within the Beeb.

I suggest anyone given the brush off on 0870 by BBC Information insists on instead having their complaint reviewed in this quarter.

NGM

NGM, how exactly can anyone do that, since probably not everyone is aware of that?

dorf wrote on Nov 15^th, 2005 at 2:16pm:

NGM, how exactly can anyone do that, since probably not everyone is aware of that?

Dorf,

Naturally my anyone only included anyone who had complained to BBC Information who also belonged to this forum and was reading this post.

NGM

NGM,

We have crossed lines. I meant if anyone as you suggest "insists on instead having their complaint reviewed in this quarter." .... how can they do that. In other words how does anyone get their complaint reviewed by the Governors' Complaints Committee?