I had trouble with Vodafone recently.  I got my bill at the beginning of December, which showed a reverse charge text.  I disputed with Vodafone who said they cannot do anything about it, and I would have to take it up with the company concerned.  Vodafone then gave me their details, and I had to contact an 0870 number to complain!!  I protested strongly, however Vodafone said that it was the only way to take up the matter as they have no other number.

I called the company concerned, and it had an answerphone, so left a message to call me back.  Guess what, they didn't!!

I then called a week later, just before Christmas and complained.  I also stated that not only do I want to be refunded the cost of the £1.50 text, which he agreed would only be charged if I had sent a text in the first place, which is obvious from my vodafone bill that I didn't, but I also wanted to be re-imbursed for the phone call to the 0870 number.  The guy told me I was calling a "toll free" number, and then discovered I was chatting to a Canadian!!

He gave me the company e-mail address, and took mine, in order to update me, but haven't received anything yet.

Since the company concerned has been very unhelpful I have no hesitation about releasing their details on this site.

The are called Zime, and their text code is 87239.
Their number is 08701 262122.
Their e-mail is zimepl@zim.biz

Has anyone else here had any trouble with them?

Canadian company (sorry, corporation) over which ICSTIS has no control, but pesumably they do over Voda; so come on ICSTIS stop contributing to the reputation of RIP-OFF Britain (ROB).

ps - what a shame that www.zim.biz fails. Grrr >:(

But surely since they operate in the UK, ICSTIS do have powers to stop receiving revenue from the UK, and using UK numbers.  Of course if I was making a call to a Canadian short text, or a Canadian premium rate number then obviously things would be different, but they obviously had to arrange a premium rate number here in the UK, for such purposes, and arrangements with the mobile networks to charge.

This certainly proves in the other thread how vodafone like ripping people on PAYG off.  Had I been on PAYG and hardely ever made any calls, or checked balance, this would go unnoticed, but as it was on my itemised bill, I was able to take action.

With Vodafone passing the buck to me, and making it my dispute with Zim, they are washing their hands of the matter, and I am trying to get £1.50 plus the cost of 0870 calls (which admittedly I made with my O2 inclusive minutes) which is a trivial amount, and they rely on the many that give up or believe that £1.50 is too little to worry about to outweigh the few who do pursue the matter like myself.

Even now I am waiting for an e-mail from them, and will probably have to call up again.  I think maybe this is for ICSTIS

zim.biz is indeed unavailable. but looking at the register they are registered to Zim mobile in Canada, and have a contact phone number of +16137271397, which will probably be cheaper to call than 0870 (or I can use my just dial on my O2 inclusive minutes)

Sorry :-[, Shiggaddi, you are absolutely right. I was thinking (too late on a Sunday evening for coherent thought) that it was the Canadian-ness that foiled ICSTIS, rather than the usual British scamming.
What about Voda being the agent for the Canadian corp - and therfore liable to you? After all banks have to refund D/Ds when asked...

A very good point about Vodafone being liable.

I have a contract with vodafone to provide mobile phone services, and with A&L to provide banking services.

If A&L are asked by a company who I do not have any contact with whatsoever to set up a direct debit, and help themselves to my money then I'd complain to A&L and they would refund this money, and the company concerned would be under heavy investigation from trading standards, banking ombudsman, and any other regulatory bodies.  I would ask A&L to investigate why this money was taken, and for what service, and if it appears they set themselves up to deliberately con people they would be in serious trouble.

Yet Vodafone wash their hands of any liability despite having an arrangement with Zim to collect money on their their behalf as an agent.  However when one of the people who has been asked to pay queries this, instead of telling Zim that they won't collect the money, they collect it from me anyway, and still pay Zim the money because they asked for it, despite the complaint from me.  Since Vodafone see it as my problem, and something I should sort out with Zim, they don't take notice of the complaint and allow it to continue.

And of course people on PAYG who don't get any itemised billing and don't keep tabs on what credit is left won't even know they've been conned.

You might get good service from the other side of the pond with American/Canadian culture, but when these companies decide to operate overseas they certainly like to fit in with local customs such as Rip off Britain!!

Their website is http://www.zimepl.com

UK address here http://www.zimepl.com/contact/contact.html

A few complaints about them at www.grumbletext.co.uk search under Zim.

I got a reply back saying that cheque processing usually takes 2 weeks, and to allow longer to receive the money.

Having looked at my calls made from my O2 handset, I have found I made the call on the 21st December, so I sent them back an e-mail stating that I have waited 3 weeks so far, and also billed them for my time at £10 per hour, plus the cost of my 0870 calls.

Wonder what they will make of that!!

Got a rather insulting reply back today through the post.

"Thank you for using PC Modding Centre services.  We are sorry that you did not find this program useful.  As promised, eclosed is the refund that we discussed.

Feel free to contact us at any time

Sincerely,



Customer Service
zimepl@zim.biz"


Well, firstly the amount we discussed was more than £1.50, as we discussed the fact that 0870 numbers are premium rate, and I was paying 8p per minute to call them, however the cheque enclosed was only for £1.50, but if it wasn't for my O2 minutes, I'd have spent a further £1.20 chasing it up!!!

Also, I didn't use PC Modding Centre services, and of course I didn't find the program useful.  I was sent an unsolicited text message, and charged for it.

Does anyone know where I might stand legally in recovering the remainder of the money that I feel I should be entitled to?  They have refunded me for the text message, but not for the 0870 call.  Should I take this up with ICSTIS, or would they just say that they're only obliged to refund me for the text, and no other costs, and as they've done the minimum necessary, anything else I receive from them would only be a goodwill gesture, rather than something I'm entitled to.

If you feel strongly about your case, Shiggaddi, you can make a claim for your monies through the Small Claims Court.  All can be done on line by going to https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp.

Good luck.

Interesting this, I had the same problem with Zamano and O2 recently, only one reverse charged text at £1, but no-one would accept responsibility. 0871 number for Zamano, emails bounced back saying post box full, surprise surprise. O2 refused to entertain the fact that THEY had billed me without any authority. Eventually, after much emailing with O2 they agreed to refund the £1 but said there was no way of stopping it happening again. ICSTIS of course refused any help, it was between me and MY provider. It appears to be a legal ripoff, yes another example of Rip Off Britain.

Right, so perhaps we need ICSTIS, Ofcom, Otelo and the whole sorry bunch to accept that mobiles can (should, MUST) be opted out of such billing scams as the default.

I "don't do texting" (i.e. if I receive one, I ignore it and it stays in the 'IN' box without ever being viewed).

Am I correct in assuming that I am immune from such scams then?

Before I had a chance to compose another e-mail to zim, they e-mailed back to confirm that they would comply with my wishes, and also asked if I had the cheque for £1.50, to which I e-mailed back to confirm that I did.

They then said that the remaining £11.44 (£10 for using an hours of my time, and 18 mins to 0870 at 8p per minute) would also be paid.

They also apologised for the fact that I had waited 3 weeks for my first cheque and blamed the Christmas post for the delay (although my letter was dated 4 January, and was sent 1st class)

Anyway, as soon as the cheque arrives, I'll consider the matter closed.  Just wish more people would take a stand against companies like this, because their costs of settling my claim are about 10 times the amount they would have taken in profit had I just remained silent.

And Heinz, I'm not sure you are immune, because when I send a text and receive a delivery report, it confirms it reached the other persons phone (ie they have signal, and it's switched on), not that they have opened the text message.

Also, I don't even remember receiving this reverse charge text message, although I have received junk texts on my phones at various times, and just delete it, but they've never been reverse charged texts.

I did have a dispute with t-mobile last year who sent out a whole load of unsolicited texts from their t-zones wap site, costing around £30.  It took a while to dispute the matter, but it was only resolved when they realised the only way I could have requested these texts would have been to be logged into WAP at the time, and some of the texts were sent during the day, when WAP wasn't in the free minutes.  After they realised I wasn't on WAP on any occasion when a text was received, they re-imbursed me and after I told them that I have also had to write a letter to complain and waste alot of time, they agreed to give me a months free line rental as a gesture of goodwill worth £13.99.

So the story is, nobody is immune from reverse charge scamming, and it's even worse if you're on PAYG, as the average customer probably doesn't check their balance until they run out of credit, and won't know that some of the £10 they bought last time was used to fund an unsolicited reverse charge text.  I only found out, cos I have itemised billing on all my phones and they're all contract phones!!

The other day, I received the cheque that was promised, and it has now been put into my bank account.

The letter had a Canadian franked postmark on it.

Also the letter again said "Thankyou for using PC Modding services, we're sorry you didn't find our program useful"

It has now costed them between 10-20 times the amount that they made in profit from the text (taking account of the fact that not all £1.50 goes to them, and the cost of admin, and posting of 2 cheques)

This means they need at least 20 people who don't complain about these texts for them to make a profit, so if more people took a stand to companies such as zim, then maybe they wouldn't send out so many unsolicited texts.

Vodafone and Zim have already agreed that the only way I could have received the text, is to send a text in the first place to agree that I would receive a reverse charge text.  I never sent any such text, so how I could have been sent such a text in the first place, can only be down to incompetence, or scamming, but either way, they haven't dared sending any more!!

Shiggaddi wrote on Jan 9^th, 2006 at 12:12am:

A very good point about Vodafone being liable.

It certainly is a good point. I have had the same problem with Orange, and Orange equally try to wash their hands of the problem. Legally, the mobile network is liable, as you have a contract with the mobile network, not with the scammer. Next time this happens to me and Orange refuses to refund the scammed charge, I shall issue Orange with a summons via www.moneyclaim.gov.uk and I'm sure they'll pay up very quickly, plus the £30 court fee. If enough people did this, the mobile networks would scale down reverse-charge SMS very quickly.

Good for you getting the refund, despite promises from O2 after much emailing and calling, no refund has ever appeared for me and now they deny the emails they sent me. They say that the person dealing has left the company and that is an end to the matter. Standard email in fact, as the same spelling mistakes appeared again. I am afraid it is another 0870 type scam, not many people are going to take it via the small claims, not for say £10.

I suspect that a lot of people will have had 84010 unsolicited text messages on the 31st March this year. Looking on Grumbletext there appears to have been a deluge of them. They come from Dialogue Communications Limited according to O2, they gave me an 0871 number of course. Of course O2 didnt want to know, they even claimed it would only cost the same as a 01/02 number to dial 0871 fomr the mobile ! Dialogue in turn washed their hands completely of the problem, extremely rudely I might add, saying they were only a service provider !!!! , then tell you to ring B4UTELE.com, again an 0871 number, only charged at 1p per minute, yes they both claimed this.

I would be very interested to hear from other members if they had the same scam pulled on them, by the way I have sent in the geographical numbers for both, Dialogue is 0114 281 5275, B4UTELE is 0121 643 7969.  I got the Dialogue number from ICSTIS after much complaining and refusing to hang up. Of course, as usual everyone blames everyone else.

I won't hold my breath for a refund.

:'(

I maintain a pre-pay (PAYG) cellular phone with Orange, mainly for use when I visit my home country to avoid high roaming charges. To keep the service active, I usually send myself an SMS message every five or six months. On Sunday it was time to do this. As soon as I switched on the handset, a spam SMS was visible from 84010 which consequently reduced my balance to almost zero. Complaining to Orange was a waste of time, however I had to suspend my service to prevent any more of this garbage. I explained that I could not actually originate a short-code, even if I wanted to, as the US network would intercept it as an invalid code, however Orange could not accept this technical issue. It suggested I call ICSTIS which I duly did on Monday morning. A waste of time - it was suggested I contact the company, Dialogue, which as we know, uses 0871 and 0870 numbers. I sent off a web email but, as expected no response. A further call to ICSTIS on Tuesday, same result. This time, suggested I contact B4U, andother 0871 user. Again, a web mail request met with nil response. A call to Ofcom proved useless as it is not concerned about these scams. My next thought was to report this as fraud and theft to West Midlands police. I submitted a complaint, also mentioning the problem with their use of 0845 numbers which meant I could not call them. Today I receive the following response which effectively states that I have to pursue this with the FBI:

<<
Thank you for contacting West Midlands Police.

I read with interest your email and would like to progress your enquiry as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, International protocol dictates that we cannot communicate directly with you.

The correct procedure will be for you to report the matter to your local law enforcement department. They in turn should then pass it through the appropriate channels to the FBI who will consider the most appropriate course of action.

I am sorry that this might not be what you anticipated. There are stringent guidelines and we can only operate within the procedures agreed.

Regards

Economic Crime Unit,
Viceroy House.
>>

So, I am 1.50 GBP out of pocket, stolen by a scammer yet I have seemingly no recourse.

The whole telephone regulation in the UK is a merry-go-round of mediocrity, lethargy, dithering and complicity in fraud. I'm in two minds as to whether to pursue this with the feds or to filter it through my MP back home. What an absolute joke. ICSTIS wouldn't recognize their ar5e from their elbow and couldn't see a fraud if presented with a three-pound note. The call center staff seem to have an aggregate of half-a-brain. The word 'independent' needs to be dropped from their title - they are as bad, if not worse, than the fraudsters committing these criminal offences.

Does anyone with appropriate knowledge know whether the assertion by West Mids police is in fact correct and that they cannot entertain a crime report from a resident of another country? Sounds a bit bonkers to me.

Incidentally West Mids conveniently overlooked my complaint about their use of 0845.

I don't know about West mids response but if it is of any help I'm sure I read on the MSE forum a while ago that something similar happend to this forum member and at first the network said it was outside their control (I think it was either o2 or orange) but eventually after arguing with them over it and they subseqently checked his txt history and confirmed that he hadn't requested to be contacted and refunded him.

bbb_uk wrote on Apr 8^th, 2006 at 12:11pm:

... at first the network said it was outside their control (I think it was either o2 or orange) but eventually after arguing with them over it and they subseqently checked his txt history and confirmed that he hadn't requested to be contacted and refunded him.

I know it has been mentioned that as it is your provider that bills you, then the contract is between you and them and not the telco provider of the scamming company. Thus, it is surely your provider's responsibility to be able to proove that you did indeed sign up for such a service.

I find it appalling there is no system in place for the mobile networks to reject such messages if the subscriber doesn't wish to recieve them. Sending such messages out gives scammers carte blanche to dip into people's account, quite often unnoticed.

Dave wrote on Apr 8^th, 2006 at 8:33pm:

I know it has been mentioned that as it is your provider that bills you, then the contract is between you and them and not the telco provider of the scamming company. Thus, it is surely your provider's responsibility to be able to proove that you did indeed sign up for such a service. I find it appalling there is no system in place for the mobile networks to reject such messages if the subscriber doesn't wish to recieve them. Sending such messages out gives scammers carte blanche to dip into people's account, quite often unnoticed.

I've now lodged a written complaint with the Orange Executive Office (assuming its email address is valid). This in many ways is an even more serious scam than 087X - there will be many cellphone users, particularly pre-pay customers, who have no idea that they have fallen victim to a fraud given the absence of billing records from the cellular provider. ICSTIS has been wholly useless in providing any level of consumer protection. One would think that, given Dialogue Communications (the SP for 84010) has already been fined (see below) 17,500 pounds for similar scamming last year that this would be sufficient for the regulator to do something. Instead it sits on its backside with its corporate head buried deep within. ICSTIS cannot seek refunds!!! What a joke. ICSTIS is complicit in this fraud. Like Ofcom, it serves no useful purpose and nneds to be replaced with an independent regulator with some technical understanding of the issues and an ability to take action against these scumbags.


From ICSTIS web site - adjudications:

28 September 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) O2
Orange
T-Mobile
Vodafone and Virgin
Service type Unsolicited text service - subscription service
Cost £1.50 per message
Number of complaints 3
Source of complaint Public
Complaint from Nationwide
Fine £5,000
Sanction Formal reprimand

29 December 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) All mobile networks
Service type Reverse-billed competition
Cost £1.50 per message received
Number of complaints 2
Source of complaint Public
Complaint from Nationwide
Fine £7,500
Sanction Formal reprimand

29 December 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) All mobile networks
Service type Various reverse-billed SMS
Cost Various tariffs
Number of complaints 1
Source of complaint Monitoring
Fine £5,000
Sanction Suspended 6-month bar on access
Formal reprimand

See:
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=352
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=384
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=392

Thanks for the feedback, this is building up an interesting case, not directly 08xx related.

A postscript to this is in speaking to ICSTIS this morning, I gave them the geo number for Dialogue and they claimed that the 0871 number was National Rate, the lady I spoke to had no idea of the charging rate for 0871.

I do not honestly hold out much hope of OFCOM sorting out this 08xx mess, it seems they are just making a complicated situation worse. They should simply go back 15 years and accept they didnt police the numbering properly, let the telecoms companies keep all the huge amounts they have made over that period and now put it back to how it should have been.

Oh I wish . . .