There is probably a thread open for the DVLA so I leave the powers that be to move this post as appropriate. You may be interested to read this e-mail from the DVLA.

Thank you for your recent email concerning the Non Geographical telephone numbers used by DVLA.
It may be of assistance if I explain that as a national organisation, it was considered iniquitous that some of our customers should benefit from their geographic location to Swansea, while other callers paid more for making the same telephone enquiry simply because of their remoteness from Swansea. By using a non-geographic number, this ensures that the arrangements are fair and equitable to all.
We are considering the use of alternative numbers such as Local Rate (0845) and Freephone (0800) telephone numbers. However, DVLA would have to bear the full cost of Freephone numbers and the difference in costs that customers using Local Rate pay. We are conscious of our duty to ensure that we provide all our services as cost-effectively as possible. It may help put matters into perspective if I explain that DVLA expects to handle up to 17 million calls this year, or up to 68,000 calls a day. The majority of calls received are to seek general information or advice that is already provided in documents and forms published by the Agency. It would not be reasonable for the general public to be expected to cover the costs of those few who choose to telephone DVLA to seek advice that is already in the public domain.
An average call to the Agency lasts under four minutes. This generally equates to the cost of a first class stamp and is met by the person using the service rather than the public as a whole.
DVLA also derives a number of technical advantages that are not available when using geographic numbers. These numbers offer a flexible, cost-effective method of routing calls. The use of non-geographic numbers also allows us to move, increase or decrease the lines available at short notice. It is one of a range of facilities that enable us to provide improved customer service.
In accordance with the guidance provided by the Central Office of Information (COI), DVLA are satisfied that the use of 0870 numbers is currently the most cost effective way of answering public telephone enquiries. The COI guidance recommends that, when using 0870 numbers, an alternative method of contact should run in parallel. DVLA offers its customers a number of non-telephone options to access its services, e.g. web, e-mail and letter. In view of this, DVLA considers that it operates its telephone customer interface in accordance with current COI guidance. Confirmation of this has been received from COI.
While DVLA does receive a proportion of the cost of calls made to the Agency, I must explain that the rebate money received from our service providers helps fund the Agency as a whole, including the enquiry service, and cannot be regarded as profit.

Regards
Mr J H Punchard
www.direct.gov.uk/motoring

I note that they are still persisting to say that it is unfair on people outside Swansea to have to pay more for the call, so they use 0870 and then everybody pays more!!!  

;D

This is the same old garbage that was trotted out when I was dealing with this incompetent agency (see http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1121611363) some time ago. You have to remember that, in the British civil service, one key characteristic for promotion to positions of authority is the ability to demonstrate total cluelessness and clearly in this case, Mr Punchard, like those before him, has fulfilled this criterion. He is just spewing out the nonsense that is fed to him by the providers of the premium-rate numbers. He clearly lacks an understanding of the issues and really needs to be fired. This will not happen, and he'll probably become the CEO at some future date. I suggest you complain to your MP about these dithering idiots who demonstrate such abject failure in providing a service. Point out that is is cheaper for someone to call, for example, the Florida DMV than it is to call the cretins in Swansea.

So lets say they receive 3p per minute. Their data of 17,000,000 calls a year averaging 4 minutes each gives a figure of £2,040,000 if my maths are correct. Certainly not loose change. Bill

perhaps this is one to try, From UK Info


DRIVING & VEHICLE LICENSING AGENCY
OFFICE EQUIPMENT PURCHASERS ON BEHALF OF DVLA
DVLA A BLOCK
LONGVIEW ROAD

01792 788003

Or from BT.com

DVLA


International/General Enquiries
Tel: 01792 782341
Swansea SA6 7JL

BillH wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 9:52am:

So lets say they receive 3p per minute. Their data of 17,000,000 calls a year averaging 4 minutes each gives a figure of £2,040,000 if my maths are correct. Certainly not loose change. Bill

That roughly concurs with the kind of figures given to MPs for DVLA in response to Parliamentary Questions.

idb wrote on Mar 1^st, 2006 at 11:13pm:

You have to remember that, in the British civil service, one key characteristic for promotion to positions of authority is the ability to demonstrate total cluelessness and clearly in this case, Mr Punchard, like those before him, has fulfilled this criterion. He is just spewing out the nonsense that is fed to him by the providers of the premium-rate numbers. He clearly lacks an understanding of the issues and really needs to be fired. This will not happen, and he'll probably become the CEO at some future date.

So well said idb and even as one who has one who has once worked himself in the huge and faceless depths of uk governmental organisations. ;)

The scary thing about somewhere like the DVLA is that I doubt even those at the top have a clue about the details of the scam they are perpetrating. :o

Following the receipt of the e-mail from the DVLA I e-mailed a copy to Ofcom asking 1) How can the DVLA continue to perpetrate the lie that a non geographic number benefits people outside Swansea 2) If they used an 0845 number they would not have to pay any differencial cost 3) A geographic number should be made available. Their reply is attached for interest-it answers no questions of course!!!!

Steve Unger has asked me to respond to your email concerning the DVLA’s response to your enquiry. I am project manager for Ofcom's work on Number Translation Services which includes 0845 and 0870 numbers.

Public sector use of 08 numbers is one of the subjects considered in a recent Ofcom consultation on the future of 08 numbers. The consultation is called Number Translation Services: A Way Forward and was published on 28 September 2005. A summary of the consultation and a link to the full consultation document are available on our website at:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/nts_pes/

Ofcom is currently reviewing responses to the consultation and hopes to issue a policy statement in the Spring.

As I am sure you will appreciate, Ofcom is not party to the commercial terms between the DVLA and its communications provider and is not therefore in a position to comment on the points you raise about the DVLAs costs or the DVLA’s wider views.

Ofcom's view (subject to consultation) is that the use of 08 numbers by public sector organisations is a matter for each organisation and that it would not be appropriate for Ofcom to dictate which numbers public sector organisations can use. However, we have made clear our view that public sector organisations should think carefully about using 084 and 087 numbers in place of Freephone or ordinary geographic numbers.

We also believe it is inappropriate for public sector organisations to use chargeable 08 numbers exclusively (i.e. without giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups.

We have also contributed to the Central Office of Information’s best practice guidance for government contact centres and are keen to see a greater awareness and compliance with the guidance.

Best regards

Clive Hillier
---
Clive Hillier
Competition Policy Manager
+44 20 7783 4674
clive.hillier@ofcom.org.uk

davis wrote on Mar 6^th, 2006 at 9:38pm:

We also believe it is inappropriate for public sector organisations to use chargeable 08 numbers exclusively (i.e. without giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups.

I was just about to write this off as the usual totally anodine piffle from a quite supremely ineffective regulator that seems congenitally unable to fulfil its primary statutory duty to consider the best interests of uk citizens and consumers,  but then I cam across the above little statement by Mr Hillier.

Well yes its a very good idea indeed that public sector organisations who deal with people on lower incomes (that is therefore every public sector organisation that there is since The Ritz and Harrods both seem to be firmly in the private sector camp) should give equal prominence to a geographic alternative but how exactly is this to be made to happen because it seems that the BBC for one, the Inland Revenue for another and the Passport Agency for yet another all have a convenient deaf ear to Ofcom's blandishments.  And it says "chargeable 08 numbers" so Ofcom clearly also imply that public sector organisations using 0845 and 084x must also supply geographic alternatives.

The only thing that concerns me about Mr Hillier's statement is the mention of people on low incomes but how can the BBC for instance selectively only offer an 0800 number or a geographic number to those of its license payers who are on lower incomes.  So this means a geographic alternative must in fact be offered to everybody.

But I expect if it doesn't happen Ofcom will just smile sweetly and say "well we still really believe in the tooth fairy and in father Christmas too" so we naturally expected that when we expressed a hope that geographic alternatives would be provided that everyone would do it to show that they were all jolly decent chaps.  And no we can't possibly imagine for a minute that half the telecoms companies concerned might actually behave like the two bit shyster 09 ripoff merchants that keep on being referred to us week in and week out by ICSTIS for final action.

Its time to get real Ofcom.  Either get tough or else throw in the towel and the keys to your sumpuous riverside palace and let somebody who has the guts to stand up for the rights of the UK consumers take over from you.

Hi NGM

The quote selected from Ofcom may turn out to be useful.

"We also believe it is inappropriate for public sector organisations to use chargeable 08 numbers exclusively (i.e. without giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups”.

I agree with your comment of the last line (from “when”) and the Ofcom statement has to be applicable to all government departments and organisations.

kk wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 8:46pm:

Hi NGM The quote selected from Ofcom may turn out to be useful. [size=14][b]I agree with your comment of the last line (from “when”) and the Ofcom statement has to be applicable to all government departments and organisations.

So it's OK to rip-off those who are not on "low incomes."  ::)

Dave wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 3:09pm:

So it's OK to rip-off those who are not on "low incomes."  ::)

The only social telephone tariffs I am aware of are BT Light User and BT In Contact Plus which in fact centre around low cost line rental with 01/02 calls in fact being much more expensive than on normal BT Together packages and even 0870 costing 7.91p versus 7.51p per minute.

I thought I would add to the discussion on DVLA.   I was checking my son's new MOT certificate and discovered that, since last year, they have now changed their MOT enquiry/contact oline from an 0845 to an 0870 number.   They are also describing it as "national rate", something which is supposed to be unacceptable in OFCOM's (Mr Hillier's) eyes according to a recent email I had from him.   Furthermore, the DVLA actually expect people to help them by using this 0870 number when reporting issues in connection with crime prevention!!   Dream on DVLA - why should it cost law-abiding members of the public money to help this totally incompetent organisation do the work that it is paid to do???  (Feel very angry about DVLA anyway as their records of car ownership can be anything up to a year out of date & this can cause enormous stress & upset to innocent people.)   I suppose it is no good complaining to anyone but this just made me SO angry.

This makes it very clear that ofcom want the government and coi to stop public bodies using chrageable 08 numbers:

9. What is Ofcom’s view on the use of NTS numbers by public and essential services?

Ofcom believes that public bodies should consider very carefully whether it is appropriate to use 08 numbers in place of Freephone or ordinary geographic numbers.

Ofcom does not consider that it has sufficient legal grounds to prevent public bodies from using NTS numbers. However, Ofcom recommends that public bodies should avoid using 0870 numbers for contact with members of the public.

Ofcom also believes it is inappropriate for public bodies to use any 08 number exclusively (i.e. without also providing a geographic alternative number) when dealing with people on low incomes or vulnerable groups.

Ofcom has provided advice to the Central Office of Information (which advises Government Departments on how to publicise their services) and will continue to provide this support. COI guidance now advises that 0870 numbers should not be used for consumer contact centres.

Ofcom would like to see a greater level of compliance with the COI’s published guidelines on the use of NTS numbers, given the level of public disquiet over this issue, and will support the Government in achieving this objective.

Ofcom is also consulting separately (in the Numbering Review) on a proposal to introduce a new number range (the 03 range) for service providers who would like to use a non-geographic number but which do not require a revenue share. Ofcom believes this new range on which revenue sharing would be banned, would if introduced be well suited to meeting the requirements of public bodies currently using 084 and 087 numbers.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/mofaq/telecoms/nts/

Thank you for this information.  I have today sent an email with a formal complaint to DVLA and also been in touch with COI (the person I spoke to has promised to pass it on to the appropriate person in the organisation) based on this.   Let's see what happens!   I know I was FURIOUS last year when the DVLA cancelled my son's driving test at the last minute and it cost US to telephone them a number of times on 0870 to deal with a problem THEY created!  (We couldn't do any of it on-line as they suggest because my son has a medical condition which prevents use of their online service - so hit the disabled even harder!)

Barbara wrote on Jun 14^th, 2006 at 2:32pm:

I suppose it is no good complaining to anyone but this just made me SO angry.

ASA rules ban the description of 0870 as National Rate in adverts and marketing materials. Also COI rules advising against use of 0870 numbers would apply to this government agency.

You could complain to your local Trading Standard department that this is misrepresentation of pricing under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

Also you could write to your MP asking him to write to the head of the DVLA asking why they are not following COI and ASA gudiance on these matters.

You could remind him of the current Parliamentary EDM (Early Day Motion) protesting against the use of these numbers by government departments:-

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&SESSION=875

I hope this helps.

A bunch of 21st century Shylocks, even our local crime line has moved to 0845. Have written to my MP. Will advise in due course.

aerobatique wrote on Jun 21^st, 2006 at 11:24am:

A bunch of 21st century Shylocks, even our local crime line has moved to 0845. Have written to my MP. Will advise in due course.

Ask your MP to write to the Parliamentary Ombudsman asking him to investigate where Ofcom is actually implementing the central mandate given to it under primary Parliamentary Legislation and especially section 3(i) of the Communications Act 2003, which stated the primary duty of Ofcom was to protect the best interests of uk citizen consumers.

Received the following from ASA a few weeks ago after complaining about a VOSA leaflet, but don't expect to much as I complained about the same thing about 3½ months ago, and got the same reply.


ASA
Advertising Standards Authority
Mid City Place 71 High Holborn London WC1V6QT Telephone 020 7492 2222 Fax 020 7242 3696 Textphone 020 7242 8159 E-mail enquiries@asa.org.uk Online www.asa.org.uk

Please Quote: A0

9 May 2006

Dear Mr

Your Complaint – VOSA

Thank you for sending copies of the VOSA leaflet you object to, on the basis that it describes an 0870 number as "national rate".
Because I agree with you that this is a problem under our Code, I have passed your letter to our Compliance team, which will follow it up.
As you know, the Compliance team will not respond to you or publish the result of its investigations, but please be assured that they will note your comments and deal with the problem.
The Advertising Standards Authority website, www.asa.orq.uk, contains information about the ASA and the work we do, including the results of our investigations into recent complaints about advertisements.

Yours sincerely,^

Marie Almond Complaints Handler

We shall use the information you have given us, together with other information from or about you, to deal with your complaint. We may contact you to assess the quality of our services or to give you information about our activities, which might interest you. If you do not want to be contacted for that purpose, please let our Data Protection Officer know at the above address or by e-mail at data.protection(5)asa.org.uk. For further information about our Data Protection Policy please refer to our website www.asa.orq.uk .

Chairman Lord Borrie QC • Director General Christopher Graham
ASA council (Non-broadcast) Jean Coussins • Christine Famish ■ Sunil Gadhia ■ Mike Ironside • Colin Philpott • David McNair • Susan Murray ■
Dan O'Donoghue • Martyn Percy • Diana Whitworth ■ Donald Trelford • Neil Watts
The Advertising Standards Authority Limited, registered in England No 733214, Mid City Place, 71 High Holborn, London WC1V 6QT.

It isn' t really the fault of the ASA who are trying their very best under the impossible circumstances they have been placed in by Ofcom who have totally failed to stop BT and other companies showing National Rate and Lo-Call on every phone bill published.  It is from that central lie that all these secondary lies permeate.

Ofcom have huge "backstop powers" under the Communications Act 2003 but they actively neglected to make use of them to deal properly with this issue.

And of course this has nothing at all to do with certain major call centre operating companies who just happen to have made some very large permanent loans to New Labour? ::) ;)

Had my dear old car MOT'd yesterday and received (the first I've seen) a new-type MOT certificate (which isn't really - it's just an official-looking notice to tell you that 'on the computer' there's a record of whether the car in question is MOT'd or not).

I was also supplied with an explanatory 'Vehicle & Operator Services Agency' (another quango) leaflet (a VOSA/MOT Comp/1226/Nov 05 SBSEVL) which told me that all calls to their 'MOT Enquiry Unit' on 0870 60 60 440 would be charged at the national rate.

As I pay 3p connection and 0p per minute to national 01/02 numbers using 1899, it's reassuring to know that'll be what I'll be charged if I call them.   :-/

Heinz wrote on Jun 21^st, 2006 at 8:14pm:

As I pay 3p connection and 0p per minute to national 01/02 numbers using 1899, it's reassuring to know that'll be what I'll be charged if I call them.

Heinz,

You seem to have neglected to make use of the rolling eyes sarcasm emoticon when writing the above statement? :-? :-/

wrote on Jun 21^st, 2006 at 7:53pm:

It isn' t really the fault of the ASA who are trying their very best under the impossible circumstances they have been placed in by Ofcom who have totally failed to stop BT and other companies showing National Rate and Lo-Call on every phone bill published.  It is from that central lie that all these secondary lies permeate.

I complained to Trading Standards months ago about a company describing its 0845 numbers as being the "Price of a local call" on its website. I provided links to the pages on the ASA website, the guy at my local TS completely agreed that it was misleading. Just checed the company's website again....and it's still there.

What's the point in complaining? I think we can safely say that there is enough work chasing companies lying to customers about the rates of their numbers to keep TS busy.

Have just received the usual ridiculous reply from the DVLA regarding my complaint & would love to post their email & my (angry) reply but am not sure how to do it.   However, they deny they have ever used 0845 for their enquiry line (pointed out that the no they give has changed from 0845 on old style MOTs to 0870 on new style, even for reporting abuse of MOT system & that that was my point).   They say they believe they do comply with COI guidelines by offering internet & letter access (pointed out this was discriminatory as older & poorer people were less likely to have internet access).   They say most people are seeking info already available & basically why shouldn't they pay 0870 charges (pointed out that this not always the case, my enquiries were specific and, in more than one case, necessary to correct THEIR errors).   They claim to have had "verbal confirmation" that their attitude complies with COI guideline - I have asked for the name of the person at the COI who is so unaware of their own rules & threatened an FOI request if this is not forthcoming.   Anyone else like to join this campaign?  The email was from C Evans in their Customer Enquiries.

Hi Barbara,

I thought you would appreciate this email which I sent to the DVLA's senior management and their main IT contractor (IBM) after their website was down all day last Wednesday when I wanted to order a tax disc online.  Basically they only send out the notice that lets you renew online 14 days before it is due and then even if their website is up it takes them 5 working days to print out the tax disc and get it in an envelope.  Yet issuing tax discs online must save them at least a quid or two a time compared to paying the Post Office to do it.

Below is the email to Mr Nic Walters who works in some kind of link role between the DVLA and their highly incompetent website IT contractor - IBM.

Clive Bennett is the DVLA's CEO.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 21 June 2006 22:34
To: Nic Walters
Cc: clive.bennett@dvla.gsi.gov.uk; graham.pritchard@dvla.gsi.gov.uk;
richard.ley@dvla.gsi.gov.uk; simon.humberstone@uk.ibm.com
Subject: Online Tax Disc Relicensing System Down All Day Today - June
21st

Dear Mr Walters,

Finally I get an "Invitation" from the DVLA to renew my tax disc online (even though I managed to renew it online in January without receiving an "Invitation" to do so) only to find that your whole tax disc website licensing area has now gone completely down the tubes and had some pathetic apology and advice displayed to call the DVLA's appalling ripoff 0870 number (which breaches COI guidelines and Best Practice advice and also guidances from Ofcom and the ASA) for most of today when I tried to access it.  Although it now gives the appearance of being back online the site then crashes after the first stage when you have put in the Invitation number from the tax disc renewal form.

Is this the usual multi billon pound software contract agreed by the government with some incompetent and lethargic large software development company that knows it can get away with murder with a government agency where business profitability is not at stake?

What incentive is there for the public to renew their tax discs online when it is no cheaper, the site does not work reliably and/or at all and the 5 business days taken to despatch the disc (but then finally first class) are a sad joke given that customers can only apply to renew the disc no more than two weeks before it expires.

Also the nearest Post Office shown on the renewal form in Dorking High Street was incorrect as my nearest tax disc licensing post office is actually at Carters Garage in The Street in Capel.  Or doesn't the DVLA like to assist the small number of sub post offices who have tax disc licensing status?

Yours in extreme dismay.

Regards,

And below is my latest email to their CEO, Clive Bennett, after finding their whole wesite totally offline tonight whilst www.easyjet.com was of course still operating as normal........................

You will note that I refer to Mr Bennett as "King of Govt Agency 0870 Ripoffs".

I think I may have rather let rip after no longer being hidebound by the need to keep up the respectale mantle of an elected representative of the populace. ;)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 27 June 2006 01:05
To: clive.bennett@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
Cc: Nic Walters; graham.pritchard@dvla.gsi.gov.uk;
richard.ley@dvla.gsi.gov.uk; simon.humberstone@uk.ibm.com
Subject: Time For The King of Govt Agency 0870 Ripoffs to Resign?

Dear Mr Bennett,

I tried to visit the DVLA website tonight to try to renew my tax disc online but once again the entire website was down even though all other websites on the internet I needed to access were working fine.

Please can you explain to me why it is that your highway robbery system (a rather appropriate analogy for your agency) of 0870 telephone numbers operates without problem 7 days a week but your free of charge website is down for most of the time.

I think the total downtime of the Easyjet flight booking website in the last 10 years is well under 24 hours but your website goes down for days at a time either completely or in respect of the tax disc ordering functionality.

You cynically continue to let your agency's staff send out endless responses to complaints about the use of 0870 numbers that falsely claim that their use does is not contrary to government policy and does not discriminate against the financially disadvantaged in a way that suggests you are in fact a wholly unfit and inappropriate person to run a government agency.

By your continued disregard for the public best interest over 0870 numbers and your incompetence in failing to fire IBM for breach of contract in failing to competently maintain your website you seem to me to show that you are wholly unfit to run the DVLA and I would demand your resignation forthwith in the hope that you might leave for Sky or some other commercial outfit where brazenly ripping off the public would not be considered to be highly inappropriate behaviour.

Yours in dismay.

Well done NGM!  I have extracted Mr Beenett's email address from your post & will now forward to him my original email & reply from his staff & see if we get any reaction at all.   (I have not yet taken this to my MP as I have had to call on his assistance for other, non-telephone related matters a few times recently so I don't want to overdo my calls on him as he is extremely hard working and dedicated, as well as being  deputy speaker.

Barbara wrote on Jun 27^th, 2006 at 10:25am:

Well done NGM!  I have extracted Mr Beenett's email address from your post & will now forward to him my original email & reply from his staff & see if we get any reaction at all.   (I have not yet taken this to my MP as I have had to call on his assistance for other, non-telephone related matters a few times recently so I don't want to overdo my calls on him as he is extremely hard working and dedicated, as well as being  deputy speaker.

Unfortunately I know my MP (Sir Paul Beresford) personally due both to him being a former Parliamentary colleague of my father and during my councillor career.  This makes it more difficult to take up with him what I know he is fairly ikely to see as a trivial matter from previous assessments of his personality type.

He is unfortunatly much more interested in any forms of allegation of child molestation or paedophilia which he pursues night and day with an almost unhealthy level of obsession.

Have just received a reply to my email to Clive Bennett- apparently he receives too many emails to deal himself so this response was from the Operations Manager.   Following my complaint about the use of 0870 nos (see earlier post for details) he is contacting the COI again for claification!   Will keep the site updated on this.   Wonder if NGM has had a response to his email yet?

Barbara wrote on Jul 10^th, 2006 at 4:16pm:

Wonder if NGM has had a response to his email yet?

Mr Bennett's secretary acknowledged my email and promised a reply but so far no reply has been been received.

The primary thrust of my email was to complain about the DVLA online tax disc website being "temporarily offline for maintenance" for a week or more with an 0870 number being recommended as the alternative method of renewal while it was unavailable.

Although I have so far received no reply the offending 0870 phone number has been removed from the web page that is displayed on the many occasions when their online tax disc renewal page goes offline.  The suggestion now is purely that you visit a Post Office as an alternative.  However they cannot even get that right suggesting my nearest tax disc licensing Post Office is 7 miles away in Dorking when it is in fact only 1 mile away in Capel!  It appears that the DVLA wishes to try to put all sub post offices that still have tax disc licensing status out of business as soon as it can.

wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 1:19am:

It appears that the DVLA wishes to try to put all sub post offices that still have tax disc licensing status out of business as soon as it can.

Which makes me wonder why you didn't go there in the first place NGM!

Support your local Post Office (yes, I live in a village too).

Heinz wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 10:30am:

Which makes me wonder why you didn't go there in the first place NGM! Support your local Post Office (yes, I live in a village too).

The online website saves you having to fish out your MOT and insurance certificate and also lets you pay by credit card instead of just Switch (which was all they allowed me to use down at the sub post office).  And I tend by nature to be an early adopter of new technology.

In any case the local Sub Post Office is no longer run by the locals having been sold to some "non-locals" (without wishing to tread any further into politically incorrect territory about those who now comprise most of England's small shopkeepers) by the family that had run it for about 90 years five years ago.

wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 12:53pm:

The online website saves you having to fish out your MOT and insurance certificate and also lets you pay by credit card instead of just Switch (which was all they allowed me to use down at the sub post office).

Presumably DVLA's income from 0870 allows it to subsidise the credit card companies, rather than the more meagre fees that debit cards are allowed to charge?
Sorry, off topic, but relevant in hidden subsidy. After all some credit card companies offer cashback - from money that you have paid, or money extorted from shopkeepers (even incomers in Capel). Perhaps we shall see a card offering 0870 style payments. Heaven forbid. Ofcom/APACS certainly will not.

Tanllan wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 1:23pm:

wrote on Jul 11th, 2006 at 12:53pm: The online website saves you having to fish out your MOT and insurance certificate and also lets you pay by credit card instead of just Switch (which was all they allowed me to use down at the sub post office). Presumably DVLA's income from 0870 allows it to subsidise the credit card companies, rather than the more meagre fees that debit cards are allowed to charge? Sorry, off topic, but relevant in hidden subsidy. After all some credit card companies offer cashback - from money that you have paid, or money extorted from shopkeepers (even incomers in Capel). Perhaps we shall see a card offering 0870 style payments. Heaven forbid. Ofcom/APACS certainly will not.

Credit card payments attract a £2.50 levy.  " (please note there is a £2.50 charge per transaction for using a credit card)"  from  HERE

derrick wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 2:45pm:

Credit card payments attract a £2.50 levy.  " (please note there is a £2.50 charge per transaction for using a credit card)"  from  HERE

I managed to renew my tax disc for 6 months using the DVLA website at Christmas when I was separated from my MOT and insurance but to be honest couldn't remember if I used Switch or a Credit Card.  Now that you mention the £2.50 fee I do recall using Switch to avoid paying this.

There is no excuse for this credit card levy on direct website sales given that DVLA obviously pays a quid or two to the Post Office for each disc issues which it saves if customers renew direct online.  So they obviously could afford to support credit card and still be better off than if the disc was issued through the Post Office.

MBNA's Conran card pays 1% cashback on everything you buy.  Amex Platinum gives you 0.5% cashback up to £7,000 per annum or something and then 2% thereafter.  And GE's new card gives you 3% cashback on all fuel and supermarket purchases.  The GE deal is so good it seems unlikely to last but the Conran Visa card has been paying 1% cashback consistently for several years.  See www.moneysavingexpert.com for more information on all this stuff.

wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 3:03pm:

derrick wrote on Jul 11th, 2006 at 2:45pm: Credit card payments attract a £2.50 levy.  " (please note there is a £2.50 charge per transaction for using a credit card)"  from  HERE There is no excuse for this credit card levy on direct website sales given that DVLA obviously pays a quid or two to the Post Office for each disc issues which it saves if customers renew direct online.  So they obviously could afford to support credit card and still be better off than if the disc was issued through the Post Office.

The DVLA, I assume, have a special deal with the post offices and it probably doesn't cost them no where near as much as it does to process an application as it does when paying via a credit card which does attract a fee for the DVLA.  It really depends on who processes the credit card transactions - the DVLA or an outside company.

I know that Tesco stores use Tesco finance (or something similar) to process their credit cards transactions for them and that Tesco Finance take a 2.5% (or there about) for each transaction but obviously this 'extra' charge is not passed on to us customers and is taken out of their (Tesco's) profit instead.

Do you not have a debit card NGM as technically according to the DVLA website these don't attract the £2.50 charge?

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 11^th, 2006 at 4:00pm:

Do you not have a debit card NGM as technically according to the DVLA website these don't attract the £2.50 charge?

Yes I have a debit card but MBNA's Conran Visa card pays me 1% cashback on all my transactions so paying by debit card means that my tax disc costs me £1.50 more than if I could pay by MBNA Conran Visa if DVLA did not charge an extra £2.50 fee for credit cards.

All credit cards charge merchants at least a couple of percent or so as otherwise cards like the Conran card would not be able to pay me 1% cashback.  Banks also charge them for debit card transactions but not as much and more like a flat fee per transaction rather than a percentage.  Of course the Post Office was one of the last retailers to start accepting either debit or credit cards.  However I can send something via the Post Office on Special Delivery with a credit card so its odd that I can't use a credit card to buy a tax disc?  After all almost 100% of the tax disc fee is profit for the government's coffers so they could easily afford to give up a small part of.  And as I said if I pay them directly online they save the fee that they pay to Post Office Counters.

I have at last received a reply to my complaint regarding their use of 0870 numbers to report problems with MOTs etc in which Ian Broom, their customer services manager, admits that the earlier reply I received was inaccurate in a number of ways, including when I was told that the COI had told DVLA verbally that it was complying with their guidelines!! I would like to post this email but my technology skills don't allow and it is quite long, too long for me to re-type in full.   If someone who does know how to do this will supply me with an email or if the site has one, I will forward on this email for them to post because it does seem to indicate some progress.   Thanks to anyone who can help.

Quote:

From: "csm.dvla" <csm.dvla@gtnet.gov.uk> To: barbara Subject: RE: Complaint Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:11:15 Dear I am writing further to my e-mail of 21 July 2006.  I am now in a position to address the issues you have raised and I hope you will accept my apologies for the delay in replying. I am sorry that you were dissatisfied with Mr Evans’ reply of 26 June.  I should clarify that Mr Evans was correct when explaining that DVLA have never used 0845 numbers for the enquiry service. The 0845 number that was quoted on a MOT certificate is appropriate to the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) and not DVLA.  It is regrettable that this was not made clear and I apologise for the inconvenience caused. While I appreciate that not everyone has access to the Internet, I cannot agree with your assertion that our system is discriminatory to some people.  As explained by Mr Evans, in addition to the web and e-mail, customers may access our services by fax or letter.  The choice remains with the customer and, while I sympathise with your circumstances, I can only apologise if you felt that you could not use these alternatives. In terms of telephone access, although most numbers are 0870, the main switchboard number 01792 782341 is available. While VOSA have provided a 0845 number for MOT related enquiries, DVLA have introduced a 0800 Freephone number for members of the public to report unlicensed vehicles.  This reflects the different circumstances that apply when we rely on the public to help us in our fight against Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) evasion.     Mr Evans’ reply of 26 June was inaccurate in suggesting that the Central Office of Information (COI) had confirmed our compliance with their guidance.  For this, I apologise.   The Agency has taken this opportunity to contact COI for further clarification. General advice from COI is that 0870 numbers are not recommended.  However, this advice is not prescriptive.  If 0870 numbers are being used, COI strongly recommend that other alternatives, i.e. a standard geographical number is offered in parallel and the web or postal mechanisms should be made available to give the customer a choice.  In view of these factors, DVLA considers that its telephone customer interface is in accordance with the COI guidelines. Finally, Mr Evans referred to the OFCOM consultation exercise on the use of 0870 numbers.  I can confirm that OFCOM have made a further announcement on the use of these numbers and the Agency will cease using these numbers by the set deadline.   I trust that I have explained the position satisfactorily. Yours sincerely Sent unsigned via e-mail Ian Broom Customer Services Manager

Heinz wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2006 at 4:11pm:

In terms of telephone access, although most numbers are 0870, the main switchboard number 01792 782341 is available. While VOSA have provided a 0845 number for MOT related enquiries, DVLA have introduced a 0800 Freephone number for members of the public to report unlicensed vehicles.  This reflects the different circumstances that apply when we rely on the public to help us in our fight against Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) evasion.     If 0870 numbers are being used, COI strongly recommend that other alternatives, i.e. a standard geographical number is offered in parallel and the web or postal mechanisms should be made available to give the customer a choice.  In view of these factors, DVLA considers that its telephone customer interface is in accordance with the COI guidelines. Finally, Mr Evans referred to the OFCOM consultation exercise on the use of 0870 numbers.  I can confirm that OFCOM have made a further announcement on the use of these numbers and the Agency will cease using these numbers by the set deadline.

Strange then that there is no mention at all of the geographic number that they allege they are happy for people to use at:-

www.dvla.gov.uk/contact/dvla_custenq.htm ;)  ::)

So how would people get the GN unless they visited the www.saynoto0870.com or wrote to the DVLA's CEO to complain about only the 0870 being published? :-?

some interesting information though on their website about key staff:- See  www.dvla.gov.uk/media/org.htm and www.dvla.gov.uk/media/biog.htm

As to the agency ceasing to use the 0870 numbers by the so called Ofcom "deadline" (i.e. 31st Jan 2008) for 0870 numbers surely there is no deadline unless the DVLA objects to losing their revenue share on that date?  Can we therefore assume that after 1st Feb 2008 they will start using either a 5p per minute 0844 number or a 10p per minute 0871 number. :o :'(

Clearly as they already have an 0870 number unlike an 0845 government department operator they wouldn't have to get an 03 geographic number in order to start charging geographic call prices would they? ::) :-/

Heinz wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2006 at 4:11pm:

Quote: From: "csm.dvla" <csm.dvla@gtnet.gov.uk> To: barbara Subject: RE: Complaint Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:11:15 Dear .... Finally, Mr Evans referred to the OFCOM consultation exercise on the use of 0870 numbers.  I can confirm that OFCOM have made a further announcement on the use of these numbers and the Agency will cease using these numbers by the set deadline.   I trust that I have explained the position satisfactorily. Yours sincerely Sent unsigned via e-mail Ian Broom Customer Services Manager

Hi Barbara,

I agree with NGM about what type of number they plan on getting now!

Can I therefore ask that if you reply back to this Ian, can you ask what type of numbers (ie geographical, the new 03x range, or 084x/087x) they plan on using?

I'm a bit worried that they may opt for 084x so they can still gain money (don't remind them of this though).  Maybe mention that the new 03x range, when available, is recommended by ofcom to be used by public services such as themselves so us public don't have to pay unfair/unduly higher costs.

bbb_uk wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2006 at 8:40pm:

Hi Barbara, Can I ask that if you reply back to this Ian, can you ask what numbers (ie geographical, the new 03x range, or 084x/087x) they plan on using as they state?  I'm a bit worried that they may opt for 084x so they can still gain money (don't remind them of this though).  Maybe mention that the new 03x range, when available, is recommended by ofcom so us public don't have to pay higher costs.

I wouldn't waste my time writing to any customer services person as in my experience they are programmed to always say No.  I see most customer service personnel as being more or less the modern equivalent of concentration camp guards repeatedly muttering to themselves "I was only following orders"  Although perhaps "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys" is a slightly less politically incorrect analaogy for my views on the whole customer services person species.

Personally I would write to the DVLA senior brass for whom I posted the email addresses earlier in this thread before my subscription to the thread was so mysteriously deleted by the forum software in the intervening period.  :o

Which reminds me that my last email to the DVLA's CEO is still outstanding and I must chase his secretary (who acknowledged my email and told me the matter was being investigated and a reply would be sent) to ask what has happened. :-/

Interesting that, NGM, as I took the CEO's email address from your post (didn't know it had somehow disappeared) and, following an acknowledgement from the CEO's office and the first email reply I received (the one that said the COI had verbally approved their system!!!), I received the one posted above so it seems that you end up with customer services whoever you contact initially (possibly because the top people seem to know even less about anything than the staff!!)   Thanks to Heinz for helping with that.   I will try to get round to responding and asking them if they will be moving to an 03 number.   Also, I wonder where I can find the 0800  number for unlicensed cars - I think he omitted to mention it!

Barbara

Type in DVLA in the alternative number listings lookup on this website and you will find that the 0800 number is show there.

NGM