Is it my imagination, or are more and more shopping channels advertising 0871 numbers instead of 0870? Likewise TV adverts such as Virgin Holidays to Busch Gardens etc.
If so is this their reaction to the proposals to reduce revenue share on 0870? And if so is this the reaction OFCOM were expecting (or not)? Or are the officers of OFCOM that naive?

In answer to your questions.

1. No.

2. Yes, they really are that naive (the toothless tiger was their former nickname, but I have officially renamed them 'the Charles Clarke lookalikes' or 'the inept iguanas' - take your pick).

terryhickmott wrote on May 3^rd, 2006 at 6:57pm:

Is it my imagination, or are more and more shopping channels advertising 0871 numbers instead of 0870? Likewise TV adverts such as Virgin Holidays to Busch Gardens etc.

I saw an advert by Virgin Hols advertising an 0871 and I'm sure it read in top right-hand corner something about the so-called 'national' rate!

I've been looking out for it again but haven't come across it as yet because I was going to make an official complaint to the ASA about it.  If it did read 'national rate' then I stand more chance of them investigating it otherwise they don't bother.

How can you have a 10ppm national rate?  Don't companies have any idea how much a 'national' rate actually costs?  LOL.

bbb_uk wrote on May 4^th, 2006 at 12:16pm:

terryhickmott wrote on May 3rd, 2006 at 6:57pm: Is it my imagination, or are more and more shopping channels advertising 0871 numbers instead of 0870? Likewise TV adverts such as Virgin Holidays to Busch Gardens etc. I saw an advert by Virgin Hols advertising an 0871 and I'm sure it read in top right-hand corner something about the so-called 'national' rate! I've been looking out for it again but haven't come across it as yet because I was going to make an official complaint to the ASA about it.  If it did read 'national rate' then I stand more chance of them investigating it otherwise they don't bother. How can you have a 10ppm national rate?  Don't companies have any idea how much a 'national' rate actually costs?  LOL.

Yes you did see right,it was for Busch Gardens and another one for Florida,I think, I have complained to ASA and they have replied with their standard thanks for the complaint letter we have passed it to our compliance team

Quote:

Is it my imagination, or are more and more shopping channels advertising 0871 numbers instead of 0870?

Yes, quite remarkable, isn't it? I have a subscription to a UK magazine and glancing through this week, noticed that nearly all the 087x numbers have suddenly become 0871.....

Don't I seem to recall that one of the often-(ab)used arguments for businesses not being able to change from a 0870 number was the "...costs of changing letterheads etc". Well, that doesn't seem to be stopping them now!

As I have suggested before, by the time the pitiful Ofcom response on 0870 becomes mandatory, it really will not matter - there won't be any 0870 numbers anyway! They will all be converted to 0871...at even more expensive rates.  >:(

Where does Ofcom get these numpties from?

mikeinnc wrote on May 4^th, 2006 at 5:15pm:

As I have suggested before, by the time the pitiful Ofcom response on 0870 becomes mandatory, it really will not matter - there won't be any 0870 numbers anyway! They will all be converted to 0871...at even more expensive rates.  >:( Where does Ofcom get these numpties from?

Then Ofcom will bring out a statement saying that "the 0870 issue is now fixed."  ::)

The whole industry is rigged against the consumer. The only consumer who is 'happy' with it is one who is oblivious to the real world charges, and the fact that they keep going up.

I'd seen quite a few 0871 numbers around, but not really noticed that it might be increasing, so will have to look more. Wonderful if it is ::)

At least with 0870 and the others I could console myself that unavoidable ones could be called from the inclusive minutes on my old free O2 contract, which I purposefully mostly saved it for. But 0871 costs 35p from there.

andy9 wrote on May 4^th, 2006 at 10:25pm:

I'd seen quite a few 0871 numbers around, but not really noticed that it might be increasing, so will have to look more. Wonderful if it is ::) At least with 0870 and the others I could console myself that unavoidable ones could be called from the inclusive minutes on my old free O2 contract, which I purposefully mostly saved it for. But 0871 costs 35p from there.

No surprise then to see  O2 are now using 0871 contact  numbers themselves   :-?  see:
http://www.o2.co.uk/personal/choosetariff/0,,111,00.html

lordpopperdom wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 12:15am:

No surprise then to see  O2 are now using 0871 contact  numbers themselves   :-?

I'm not condoning that number, but it's neither new or relevant to the point, as it is for enquiries from potential new customers, who are unlikely to be charged 35p/min to call from an O2 phone. O2 contract customers can call them for free

Yes i take your point. But nevertheless its another example of how these numbers are being used to replace 0870.

So, have WE shot ourselves in the foot and been 'done-over' by Ofcom?
I ask because our campaign against 0870 has been circumvented by Ofcom allowing migration to the 'even-more-expensive' 0871 - which is an even worse state of affairs than the one we started complaining about, originally.
Or am I completely wrong?

firestop wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 6:33am:

So, have WE shot ourselves in the foot and been 'done-over' by Ofcom?

I agree that Ofcom will be 'fixing' the 0870 'problem,' but by companies moving to 0871 they will be charging 10p/min at all times. I assume that they will choose the highest pricing point. Even if they don't, at something like 5p/min, it's still more expensice than normal geographical rates, soI'm sure that the 'Say No' campaign will continue.

But it will now take 'forever' for Ofcom to start (and finish!!) yet another look at the 'new' problem with 0871.  They couldn't then ask all businesses to change their numbers, yet again, without a few years grace.
They will consider their job has been done - and in theory we WOULD have been better off with the 0870.  Ofcom are not as daft as we may think - have they led us into this blind alley, purposefully?
Sadly, I think we have been well and truly 'done-over' on this.

firestop wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 4:07pm:

But it will now take 'forever' for Ofcom to start (and finish!!) yet another look at the 'new' problem with 0871.  They couldn't then ask all businesses to change their numbers, yet again, without a few years grace. They will consider their job has been done - and in theory we WOULD have been better off with the 0870.  Ofcom are not as daft as we may think - have they led us into this blind alley, purposefully? Sadly, I think we have been well and truly 'done-over' on this.

The main reason companies have gotton away with 0870, is because the majority of callers, and even a few companies themselves were unaware of the rip off.

With more and more people getting free calls for geographic numbers, and the introduction of the new 03 range, this issue is getting more and more public attention, and people are complaining to companies about 0870 numbers.

With 0871, this might push a few more people who previously didn't bother too much about cost, to look at their phone bill, and think something isn't quite right, especially those who waited until the evening or weekend to call 0870.

Hopefully companies using 0871 will be exposed as rip off merchants, and customers will associate their 0871 number as non customer friendly before deciding to do business with them, in the same way as freephone encourages callers.  Unfortunately most businesses use 0870, and 0871 numbers for customer services, rather than sales.  People calling them need to talk to someone about the service (or in some cases lack of!!) they receive, and it's no skin off their nose if a customer didn't bother to call.

However a customer does have a choice to take their business elsewhere.

On a similar note, pay as you go ISP services are being migrated from 0845 to 0844. This is the case for Freeserve users who will be moved to 0844. This means that Ofcom's justification for leaving 0845 as is needs reconsidering.

Dave wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 6:26pm:

This means that Ofcom's justification for leaving 0845 as is needs reconsidering.

I can't see why it needs reconsidering Dave?  Its obvious the real reason that 0845 was actually not migrated to geographic rates by the overpaid loafers at Ofcom was so as not to embarass the many government agencies like the Inland Revenue who had entered into long term commercial arrangements to have one with some ripoff telco or other.

The apparent movement from 0870 to 0871 is very depressing but had been predicted by others on this forum.  It only goes to show how Ofcom's piecemeal approach to the 0870 problem is completely ineffective, and furthermore shows how Ofcom's proposed UK Telephone Numbering Plan (with the introduction of the '03' range BUT leaving 084x/087x numbers intact) will similarly achieve very little indeed.  
I guess these points can be made in our responses to the Telephone Numbering Plan Consultation which closes later this month.

PS Although a side issue, I've got a suggestion ready for the future "re-branding" of this site: SAYGONETO0871 !   Sorry about that!!!

:'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(

I've been away from this site for a while and had honestly forgotten the difference between 0870 and 0871.  If I don't know the difference, how is the average member of the public to know the difference? It seems to me that most people will just notice vaguely that 0870 numbers are now 0871, assume that there is some sophisticated reason they don't understand, and then carry on regardless. If 0870 had been changed to 0900 people would have felt differently. This is the power of the ordinality of the number.

It is difficult to think of a number that could be more easily confused with 0870.  :'(

Maybe it's time to wake up. We do not live in a democracy. We do not enjoy a free market. Our government does not represent us. We live in an oligarchy and the oligopolists run the show. What passes for democratic government is just a mediating institution between oligarchs and public that casts a web of charm over the public to create the illusion that it is being governed by its own representatives. In the end, the switch from 0870 to 0871 was simply a trick to preserve that illusion.

I don't agree with everything Karl Marx said, but I do think the following aphorism applies just as much to our times as to his.

"The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie". (Marx, K, 'Communist Manifesto')

bbb_uk wrote on May 4^th, 2006 at 12:16pm:

terryhickmott wrote on May 3rd, 2006 at 6:57pm: Is it my imagination, or are more and more shopping channels advertising 0871 numbers instead of 0870? Likewise TV adverts such as Virgin Holidays to Busch Gardens etc. I saw an advert by Virgin Hols advertising an 0871 and I'm sure it read in top right-hand corner something about the so-called 'national' rate! I've been looking out for it again but haven't come across it as yet because I was going to make an official complaint to the ASA about it.  If it did read 'national rate' then I stand more chance of them investigating it otherwise they don't bother.

 
bbb_uk  Did you ever make your complaint to ASA re the above? I did and have finally got a reply that ASA are sending a draft to the ASA Council as an upheld complaint, there are 2 complainants and I was wondering if the other one was you.

Part of the reponse is "they where unaware of the change to national and local rates" and that the add was an old one?? (it was for this summer!). ASA ask if there is any more relevant info  to dislclose and I was wondering if I sent the draft to you as a PM because they have asked for it to be treated as confidential until the Councils decision and you could have a look without posting on the forum, unless you  are the second complainant and have the draft copy yourself.

derrick wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 11:38am:

Part of the reponse is "they where unaware of the change to national and local rates" and that the add was an old one??

Since when was an 0871 number ever charged at something once misledingly called the BT National Rate?  That only applied to 0870 numbers.

It really is pathetic that so much time has to be wasted by the ASA and others pursuing these one by one because useless Ofcom cannot say if anyone does it in future they will get fined £10,000 on day one and £5,000 for each and every subsequent repeat of the advertisment.

If you don't buy your car tax disc or overstay on a parking meter you get fined, no excuses.  So why is it that large companies with teams of staff to check these things only get a polite rap over the knuckles and nothing else happens to them? ::)

Of course we all know that even without the misleading claims it is National Rate that the average person calling these numbers will still think that it is.  Not only must they not say it is not National Rate - they must also say that it is 10p per minute at all times.

wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 12:00pm:

derrick wrote on Jul 2nd, 2006 at 11:38am: Part of the reponse is "they where unaware of the change to national and local rates" and that the add was an old one?? Since when was an 0871 number ever charged at something once misledingly called the BT National Rate?  That only applied to 0870 numbers. It really is pathetic that so much time has to be wasted by the ASA and others pursuing these one by one because useless Ofcom cannot say if anyone does it in future they will get fined £10,000 on day one and £5,000 for each and every subsequent repeat of the advertisment. If you don't buy your car tax disc or overstay on a parking meter you get fined, no excuses.  So why is it that large companies with teams of staff to check these things only get a polite rap over the knuckles and nothing else happens to them? ::) Of course we all know that even without the misleading claims it is National Rate that the average person calling these numbers will still think that it is.  Not only must they not say it is not National Rate - they must also say that it is 10p per minute at all times.

Yes NGM I did put that in my original complaint and that is why I am going to send in another pointing this out and hope they will amend the draft they are sending to the ASA Council. I have 7 days to do this.

derrick wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 12:07pm:

Yes NGM I did put that in my original complaint and that is why I am going to send in another pointing this out and hope they will amend the draft they are sending to the ASA Council. I have 7 days to do this.

My complaint against Sky Travel Shop on Sky Three claiming that their 0870 umbers were Charged at the National Call Rate is still ongoing several months after I first made the complaint.  Various pathetic excuses about difficulties in getting hold of a tape of the offending item etc, etc continue to be used by the ASA.

I will escalate to their ASA's CEO is this matter is not resolved very soon.

wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 12:17pm:

My complaint against Sky Travel Shop on Sky Three claiming that their 0870 umbers were Charged at the National Call Rate is still ongoing several months after I first made the complaint.  Various pathetic excuses about difficulties in getting hold of a tape of the offending item etc, etc continue to be used by the ASA.

I put in a similar complaint about a company saying that 0845 was the "price of a local call" on it website some months ago. I complained to my local trading standards quoting links to those pages on the ASA website. The description is still there.  ::)

What's the point when we could keep these people busy with numerous instances of companies lying about what their telephone numbers are and they can't even sort just one complaint?  :'(

derrick wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 11:38am:

bbb_uk  Did you ever make your complaint to ASA re the above? I did and have finally got a reply that ASA are sending a draft to the ASA Council as an upheld complaint, there are 2 complainants and I was wondering if the other one was you. Part of the reponse is "they where unaware of the change to national and local rates" and that the add was an old one?? (it was for this summer!). ASA ask if there is any more relevant info  to dislclose..

Yep, I'm the other complainant.

I'm relatively happy with the draft especially as they agreed they would include pricing information next time (probably wont though).  I feel it is useless pointing out that 0871 never was considered national rate even in the older days.  I was thinking of asking that they under the circumstances reconsider their (ASA) stance that only non-broadcast adverts have to mention the cost involved of calling these numbers whereas currently the broadcast adverts are under no such guideline.  I understand that for radio adverts it can harder due to time constraints to mention the cost but I personally can't see why the ASA non-broadcast guidelines on these numbers don't apply to TV adverts, at the very least anyhow.  I'm going to ask Ian (ASA person dealing with our complaint) if it could be passed on to the ASA Council or whomever else.  I plan on mentioning that Ofcom admit there is a lot of confusion over these prices and that Ofcom would like to see more price transparency for these calls which is what the non-broadcast ASA guidelines cover but TV adverts which get more exposure/coverage than non-broadcast adverts are currently exempt.  As I mentioned earlier, radio adverts could still be exempt for the time being.

I'm only recommending radio adverts are exempt because i'm a little more likely to get somewhere especially as Ofcom have already pretty-much told me the main reason for ASA adverts being exempt is due to radio airtime constraints.  This way it could be considered a compromise for the time being.

I'm going to do this via email as I have no intention (unless really needed) to do this via snail mail!

You may want to consider something similar but not too similar though!

Dave wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 2:32pm:

wrote on Jul 2nd, 2006 at 12:17pm: My complaint against Sky Travel Shop on Sky Three claiming that their 0870 umbers were Charged at the National Call Rate is still ongoing several months after I first made the complaint.  Various pathetic excuses about difficulties in getting hold of a tape of the offending item etc, etc continue to be used by the ASA. I put in a similar complaint about a company saying that 0845 was the "price of a local call" on it website some months ago. I complained to my local trading standards quoting links to those pages on the ASA website. The description is still there.  ::) What's the point when we could keep these people busy with numerous instances of companies lying about what their telephone numbers are and they can't even sort just one complaint?  :'(

Was it by any chance Virgin Mobile see : https://www.virginmobile.com/mobile/contactus/ContactUs?processType=processStandard

"" Give us a call...
If you'd like to become a customer or if you need help choosing a phone or accessory: 0845 6000 070.

If you're a customer already:


789 from your Virgin Mobile phone. Calls to 789 from your Virgin Mobile phone are absolutely free and if you'd like to speak to one of our team, it'll cost you just 10p per call.
Or 0845 6000 789 from a fixed line phone. Calls are charged at local rate. We're here 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

If you’d like to contact us while you’re abroad: +44 7953 967 967.""

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2006 at 3:37pm:

I'm going to do this via email as I have no intention (unless really needed) to do this via snail mail! You may want to consider something similar but not too similar though!

Yes I will do something,it has to be within 7 days of the date of the letter