The campaign to persuade people to write to Ofcom at the end of last year was surprisingly successful.

What about another campaign? - a SayNoTo0870 day.

This would simply involve asking people to make no calls to 0870/0871 numbers on one particular day chosen well in advance to allow for media coverage (and perhaps support from Money Saving Expert).

If people have to call one of these numbers, do it a day early or put it off for a day. If there was enough publicity about it, the effect on call centres might be sufficient for managers to notice the difference. A day with a call centre's staff sitting doing nothing might help to get the point across that these premium rate numbers are unacceptable for non-premium calls.

If people thought this was worth trying, I think it should be a day after the summer holidays. September might be a little too soon. October might be ok.

What do you think?

Good idea (well done :)) - and, of course, not using the sayno translation/delivery numbers that day either. :)

Brilliant idea but would need a lot of publicity, preferably TV & radio as well as I am sure I am not the only person to have abandoned newspapers when they went tabloid and we got broadband!  Lots of advance publicity then we can each try to get support among those we know and, of course, if people could also manage to do this in their work settings as well as for personal calls to organisations, it would be even better.   Do employers reaslise how much these calls cost their organisations whether through employees or as essential business calls?  Even organisations which use NGNs must face higher costs for calls to other NGNs and good organisations that use geo nos are penalised.

It is a long time since I've made a post but had to for this suggestion. It is a great idea with the potential of lots of publicity.

Without losing focus it needs to cover 0845 as well as I think most people think this is a cheap local call.

I guess SayNoTo0870/0845 Day.

I think it's a good idea as well.

October 4th, is on a Wednesday, so anyone who does need to contact these companies can do so on the Tuesday or Thursday.

Something similair happened a few years ago, with dump the pump, where people were encouraged not to fill their cars up on a particular day.  Don't know if it had much of an impact, but it certainly had the media attention.

Even if people don't take part on a massive scale, it will still cause media attention, and make people think about the cost of these numbers.  Companies that operate 0870 numbers rely on media silence and the majority of customers not aware of them costing more to continue the scamming.

More and more people are becoming aware of 0870 costs, and making their point to companies involved, either in using a geo number and deliberately getting the wrong department (as the only geo number listed is for a certain department) and having to get transferred, or taking their business elsewhere.

Therefore the media attention alone would harm the interests of 0870 operators and their telco providers.  Any more damage such as people going through with the boycott and making their calls on the day before, or day after and leaving lots of call centre staff idle on the day would be a bonus.

Also, don't forget that companies that use geographic numbers, or freephone numbers for customer service as well as sales should not be targetted, and as well as not being targetted they should get a mention in some sort of safe list as companies you can call.  This would be free advertising for them, and they may pick up some extra sales on that day.

Much as I'd love to help, how can I reduce the number of such calls I make - when I don't make any anyway?

Heinz wrote on Jul 6^th, 2006 at 2:48pm:

Much as I'd love to help, how can I reduce the number of such calls I make - when I don't make any anyway?

Very true.  There will be loads of people who may not make any calls that week anyway.  I do make some calls (usually using the geo numbers of course!!) whenever I need to make a change in service, or complain that something is wrong etc.

What it will do, is ensure that if making a call to a call centre is on someone's "to do list" for that week, that they avoid the Wednesday.

Shiggaddi wrote on Jul 6^th, 2006 at 3:11pm:

Heinz wrote on Jul 6th, 2006 at 2:48pm: Much as I'd love to help, how can I reduce the number of such calls I make - when I don't make any anyway? Very true.  There will be loads of people who may not make any calls that week anyway.  I do make some calls (usually using the geo numbers of course!!) whenever I need to make a change in service, or complain that something is wrong etc. What it will do, is ensure that if making a call to a call centre is on someone's "to do list" for that week, that they avoid the Wednesday.

Yes, the point is not to preach to the converted but to give journalists a hook to hang a story around.

The best campaigns are those where 'spontaneous publicity' is organised in advance ;D. Perhaps members could take responsibility for local media using an agreed press kit.

I'll take Central Scotland if you like...

Heinz wrote on Jul 6^th, 2006 at 2:48pm:

Much as I'd love to help, how can I reduce the number of such calls I make - when I don't make any anyway?

As Tanllan pointed out (I hadn't thought of this) you shouldn't make calls with any of the alternative numbers either. In fact, if possible, access to the alternative numbers list could be closed for the day and replaced with a notice saying "It's SayNoTo0870 Day - Don't call companies that use 0870 numbers."

It's not a bad idea.  We definitely need MSE support though and the newspapers that have been known to support us (even if its slightly) in our campaign.

As some companies are starting to move to 0871 or 0844, it may be worth mentioning the whole ngn range and obviously pointing out that calls to these numbers earn the company called revenue in most cases (it's obviously less rare on 0845 numbers but is definitely true for 0844, 087x numbers).

Have read all the above and agree with everything EXCEPT closing the alternatives list for the day as sometimes it is unavoidable to have to call a particular number on that day eg re urgent transport problems & if the alternatives list is unavailable then people perhaps in real, urgent need will be forced to use the NGNs.  How about, for that day, when people click for an alternative number having a message asking them to postpone their call, if aat all possible, until the next day & explaining why.   After all, people using the alternatives list are on our side & to remove access would antagonise them.    Also, could there be a brief leaflet which we could print off and give to friends & colleagues?   This would also encourage discussion and a broader awareness.

Yes, of course, you're absolutely right. How about an intervening page instead? So rather than going directly to the lists you'd get a page saying "please don't phone today unless you really have to". Maybe that's what you're suggesting, now I re-read your message.

AJR wrote on Jul 5^th, 2006 at 10:11pm:

What about another campaign? - a SayNoTo0870 day - Wednesday 4 October  2006

Great idea, AJR - gets my support too.  :)  As well as contacting local/national media I'd suggest starting some kind of viral email campaign too - a short and simple email with the SAYNOTO0870 logo and links back to this site for futher information.  I'd also suggest that this email is not sent any earlier than 4 weeks before the chosen date so that its not simply read and then forgotten.

Template letters/email regarding a SayNoTo0870 day would vital so look forward to that.  

Perhaps the site could start highlighting this campaign NOW ::) on the home page and search for a number page to help raise awareness and to begin building momentum...

PS I fear this thread could get missed in the 'site related' area of the forum - I know its been raised before but maybe there should be a separate 'sayno action/consultation' area created or failing that perhaps re-name 'geographical chat' as 'saynoto0870 chat & action' ?  After all, geographical chat is a bit bland, don't you think!  :-?

gdh82 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2006 at 10:44am:

PS I fear this thread could get missed in the 'site related' area of the forum - I know its been raised before but maybe there should be a separate 'sayno action/consultation' area created or failing that perhaps re-name 'geographical chat' as 'saynoto0870 chat & action' ?  After all, geographical chat is a bit bland, don't you think!  :-?

As there have been no contributions on this subject for a few days, perhaps this thread is being missed due its location?

Will the moderators start a new area? Is this idea a flyer? How can I help?

~ Quote box tidied up by Dave

How about a section called Publicity Campaigns or something like that?

AJR,

I hope you don't mind but I've created a poll to make it easier to get an overall consensus of what forum members think!

I will create a new thread in Geographical Requests and Geographical Chat and link to this thread in a hope to attract more forum members.

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2006 at 9:07am:

I hope you don't mind but I've created a poll to make it easier to get an overall consensus of what forum members think!

Good idea! Why didn't I think of that?

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 12^th, 2006 at 9:07am:

I will create a new thread in Geographical Requests and Geographical Chat and link to this thread in a hope to attract more forum members.

Thanks for this, bbb_uk - it will certainly help bring more attention to this thread.  :)

I think the naming of forums remains unresolved though.  Don't want to sound like a stuck record but IMO 'Geographical Numbers Chat' is not only terribly vague, its also a misnomer - this forum mainly discusses non-geographical numbers of course!  :-/

Although it isn't perfect, I think 'SayNoTo0870 Chat & Action' (or something else along these lines) is a better description of what actually takes place in the chat forum.

I expressed concern at this thread being here because the Site Related Forum is described as "Suggestions and comments regarding the functionality of the website. Along with feature requests" which obviously is quite different to organising a campaign.

Heinz wrote on Jul 6^th, 2006 at 2:48pm:

Much as I'd love to help, how can I reduce the number of such calls I make - when I don't make any anyway?

Heinz I just can't believe you never make such calls.

I bitterly dislike making them but they cannot be avoided on occasion with some products I am a customer of - for instance both Sky and Tivo (which has its call centre run by Sky) and for which all 0870 alternatives are presently withdrawn and which do not take customer instructions by email.  Much though I hate the numbers I cannot distort my life so much as to not buy products I otherwise want to have and which are only available from a monopoly 0870 supplier.  I do the best I can by always using the alternative number where there is one and using www.18185.co.uk at 4p per minute when there is no other alternative.

As to the SayNoTo0870 Day its a great idea but it requires getting journalists on side in advance at nearly all the national newspapers and on radio and tv and to get them to run the story prominently.  And the message must be not to call any company that promotes 084 or 087 numbers on that day, even if there is a geographic alternative listed on this website.  If there was a huge decline in calls to Sky and the Inland Revenue they would notice although really a week long boycott would do them much more damage.

However I fear that even now getting the co-operation of enough national newspaper journalists would be very difficult and it could be a damp squib.  I think we need a Panorama program yet on this subject before such an approach is likely to work out, much though I in principal support it.  To get a mass boycott of 0870 numbers to work would also require a large number of people to understand the scam and want to act against it and unfortunately at the moment the majority of the general public still find the scale and significance of the scam too cunning for them as mere simple mortals to understand or want to understand.  Of course they shouldn't have had to as the regulator should have dealt with the issue before it ever became a serious problem........................

wrote on Jul 19^th, 2006 at 9:36am:

I would suggest testing the willingness of major newspapers and tv channels to run with promoting the existence of such an anti 0870 campaign day and the chances of their properly explaining the issue to the public before progressing the idea any further. If they aren't willing to play ball with us then it will be a damp squib.

farci wrote on Jul 19^th, 2006 at 2:28pm:

It's precisely because I know the difficulties I am calling for a more positive attitude from the senior members of this board to the creation of eg: a press kit, spokesmen's contact numbers, a section of the website with press releases. For instance - do we have a list of parliamentary supporters? Could we organise an e-mail campaign? Can we call on the organisers of other protests to advise us? I am not asking you Big Men do do everything but simply to take the intiative and not simply bemoan the status quo. If anyone else is willing to volunteer some participation with strong central direction let's hear from you!

NGM clearly has a very valid point but I also agree with Farci.  I've no experience of any such campaigns but I'd be willing to contribute.  As Farci, says, such a campaign would definately need the support of the senior members of the forum.

~ Quote box tidied up by Dave

Barbara wrote on Jul 6^th, 2006 at 9:20am:

Do employers reaslise how much these calls cost their organisations whether through employees or as essential business calls?  Even organisations which use NGNs must face higher costs for calls to other NGNs and good organisations that use geo nos are penalised.

It's hard to believe the degree of stupidity that exists within UK organizations, commercial or otherwise. My last employer, when I lived in the UK, used an 0870 number for its 'staff information line' which was primarily used for dissemination of corporate information. This organization, a government agency with a staff of around 10,000, actively encouraged employees to call from their office phones. Whilst the agency may have been making a couple of pence per minute from NTS revenue, it would pay in the order of 8p per minute for each and every call (virtually all would be made during weekday daytime). Despite the agency having a sophisticated telephone switch that could easily accommodate a 'voice mailbox' or similar on one of its internal extensions (as it does with its 'inclement weather information line'!), thus reducing the cost to effectively zero, it preferred to have the ludicrous 0870 solution, presumably suggested by some idiotic consultancy company in partnership with a 0870 reseller. Completely bonkers, but consistent with the UK civil service (including Ofcom) being clueless about telephony matters.

I also had to laugh about this report on the BBC web site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5201748.stm

"Stolen phones cost FCO £600,000"

which includes

"Two satellite phones stolen in Iraq cost the Foreign Office almost £600,000 in bills, a spending watchdog says. It took about 18 months before the phones were cut off, despite a junior staff member in the Foreign Office telephony unit querying the huge bills.

The National Audit Office said neither senior staff nor the Iraq Policy Unit bothered to look into it and continued to pay the itemised monthly bills. "

Read it and weep.

Unbelievable.

yes :) lets do it and show what we can do  but 1 thing we must not used this site on that day as for non members thay must also some how be stopped also for using this site as they might not be as enthusiastis  as us as to not use the site on that day as most 0870 ect numbers lead to the geographical alternative as we all no

Does this proposed date not almost coincide with the introduction of BT's new sneaky minimum call charges and per minute pricing?

If so, this could be a valuable hook for our Day "further example of rip-off telcos", " is this why we fought war?"

You get the idea...

Now - about organisation of the event led by senior members of the forum? (I refer my Hon Friends to remarks I made earlier (ad nauseam))

Re dad2711's post a few days ago, I did say previously that, although use of geo alternatives and NGNs should be avoided on that day, emergencies can occur (eg re trains or other public services) when people may need to use the site and get alternative numbers.   It would not be fair to punish supporters/users of the site by denying them access to the geo alternatives on protest day, indeed this could upset/annoy them to a degree that we lose their support or even prompt them to set up alternative sites which would split and reduce the effectiveness of the campaign.   As I said previously, for a few days prior to 4th October and on the day, put a notice on the site requesting people only to contact organisations primarily using NGNs in an emergency but don't deny people help.

I don't think this day will be at all effective unless we obtain the prior agreement of various major national radio and tv journalists to support it though.

wrote on Aug 7^th, 2006 at 11:12am:

I don't think this day will be at all effective unless we obtain the prior agreement of various major national radio and tv journalists to support it though.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Quote from farci on 19. Jul 2006 at 14:28:

It's precisely because I know the difficulties I am calling for a more positive attitude from the senior members of this board to the creation of eg: a press kit, spokesmen's contact numbers, a section of the website with press releases. For instance - do we have a list of parliamentary supporters? Could we organise an e-mail campaign? Can we call on the organisers of other protests to advise us?

I am not asking you Big Men do do everything but simply to take the intiative and not simply bemoan the status quo.

If anyone else is willing to volunteer some participation with strong central direction let's hear from you!

I am not a Big Man but just a passionate enthusiast of the cause.  Unfortunately I also know by now that this is seen by the media as a dispute by people who don't like paying a few pennies on their phone bils (plus many media outfits also use the numbers themselves) so it doesn't inspire the same level of strong public interest or consistent feeling as child abuse or the murder of a policeman.

The Big Man of this forum is Daniel who controls the content of all the editorial areas of the site.  So far he has been totally silent on this matter and without his support I doubt it is going anwhere.  In fact Daniel really hasn't helped at all lately, even by providing a facility to search for numbers automatically in the Unverified list (if none is found in the Verified one) whilst still pointing out that they have not been checked so cannot be guaranteed to work.

The proposed date is actually far too soon.  I would suggest some time in Jan or Feb when people aren't busy with Christmas but are all broke and counting the pennies.  Also October is too soon to get anything arranged.

Tks NGM, next Spring (at the earliest) sounds excellent. Perhaps to tie in with the date (in June?) when we start earning for ourselves, rather than in tax.

Tanllan wrote on Aug 7^th, 2006 at 11:00pm:

Tks NGM, next Spring (at the earliest) sounds excellent. Perhaps to tie in with the date (in June?) when we start earning for ourselves, rather than in tax.

Which date do you refer to Tanllan on which we start earning for ourselves? :-? :-/

As the tax year starts on 5th April then if one looks at things on an annualised basis then many people are working for the Inland Revenue until the start of August before they get a penny of their earnings for their own use.

Of course we all know that in reality it doesn't work like that and they annualise it and take a roughly equal cut out of your wages each month.

Of course the biggest earner of all from this website seems to be so busy spending the proceeds that he no longer has time to even participate in any discussion in the forum. ;) ::)

(quote from barbara  Re dad2711's post a few days ago, I did say previously that, although use of geo alternatives and NGNs should be avoided on that day, emergencies can occur eg re trains or other public services un quote.) Surely the whole point of this day is to deprive call centres of the phone calls, surely for this to work one has to avoid anyone making unneccesary phone calls otherwise we might as well not even bother trying to do this for one day. Perhaps we can all be slightly inconvenienced for 24 hours.  Please note I am not suggesting in any shape or form in an emergency  that this site could not be used ! do what ever is necessary in that case  

dad2711 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006 at 1:32pm:

quote from barbara ( Re dad2711's post a few days ago, I did say previously that, although use of geo alternatives and NGNs should be avoided on that day, emergencies can occur (eg re trains or other public services)  Surely the whole point of this day is to deprive call centres of the phone calls, surely for this to work one has to avoid anyone making uneccesary phone calls otherwise we might as well not even bother trying to do this for one day. Perhaps we can all be slightly inconvenienced for 24 hours.  Please note I am not suggesting in any shape or form in an emergency do what ever is necessary including using this site on the said day  :)

The point of the day should actually be to publicise the cost of making 084/7 phone bills on a quarterly and annual basis compared to 01/02 calls being available on fixed price plans for a tenth of the cost (the 3p versus 7.51p per minute does not demonstrate the real nature of the problem, especially not for 0845 numbers).  Realistically not enough people are going to be aware of  our Day to understand it or significantly impact the call centres at one hit.  The impact on the call centres is longer term if more and more people gradually become aware of www.saynoto0870.com and start calling the alternatives.  Also to raise awareness with government ministers and Ofcom about the continuing level of public unhappiness.

To be honest things are only going to change if Mr Stephen Carter's replacement at Ofcom is not someone from a major telco and is a public service oriented type who has a will to actually bring this scam to an end.  People could do worse than start writing to Mr David Cameron and getting him and his team to commit to it being one of the blatant New Labour stealth taxes in the public sector (of which Patientline is the most extreme phone variant) that an incoming Conservative government would make illegal.

Aye hello again, been a while ;)

I think its a fabulous idea. But im just wondering, most of us on the site dont call the 08* numbers anyway. So does this mean we could jus not bother with any call center for that day anyway?

Grand idea anyway.. And there I was thinking it was a get together for a drinking sesh!  :-/

ok i say again do not use this site on that day so the call centers do not get any calls via geographical or the non standard numbers  point made ,job done, i rest my case :)

good idea  !!! count on me

Wonderful idea to have a whole day to focus activity and raise awareness. How about linking it to the recently increased awareness of junk mail? We could advocate a sort of decluttering at a national level - in other words, eliminating the junk from all our communicative channels (telecoms included) and improving the nation's efficiency.

great idea , include 0845, we need lots of letters / emails to BT and OfCom , don't you think?  

I've been a bit slow to notice the connection but I wonder if anyone has spotted the same thing as I have?

Can it be a coincidence that there was a surge of publicity for the website beginning on Oct 4?

bbb_uk points out these reports - one on the 4th, three on the 5th and another without a date:

"The newspaper articles about the use of these numbers are available in the following links:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5405620.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2389087,00.html
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=4086 60&in_page_id=1770[/url]
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005300000-2006460369,,00.html
and a BBC news video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi?redirect=st.stm&news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=5410232  "

And here are a few more I found on Google News, all around Oct 4.
http://www.metro.co.uk/home/article.html?in_article_id=20626&in_page_id=1&ct=5&ct=5
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=---consumers-swarm-to-website-that-fights--rip-off--0870-lines&method=full&objectid=17881228&siteid=50082-name_page.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460311,00.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369673-details/Your+number's+up,+webmaster+tells+the+0870+rip-off+firms/article.do

I'd suggest that what happened was the following. Most stories in the media are driven by the newsroom diary. A few are hot news that erupt on the day but most are planned well in advance and put in the diary. Some months ago a few newspapers spotted the suggestion of a SayNoto0870 Day and jotted it down in the diary. Later, the news-editor reviews the diary in advance and assigns staff to each item. But when it came to Oct 4th, this forum hadn't got around to doing anything about it.

(Actually, when the contributor formerly known as Non-Geographical Man suggested setting a date early next year I went back to my first post that set the title of this thread and tried to edit it to change the date to sometime next year. But I didn't succeed so the heading stayed as Oct 4 even though the discussion had moved on to a date in 2007.)

Then on Oct 4, various reporters assigned to the story check what's happening and find the answer is "nothing". So they can either take the day off, or they can try and stay in the news-editor's good books by writing the story anyway. So several stories popped up on Oct 4 or 5.

I wonder how much more coverage there might have been if there had actually been any advance publicity with a press release and someone willing to act as spokesman.

AJR wrote on Oct 12^th, 2006 at 5:19pm:

I've been a bit slow to notice the connection but I wonder if anyone has spotted the same thing as I have? Can it be a coincidence that there was a surge of publicity for the website beginning on Oct 4? bbb_uk points out these reports - one on the 4th, three on the 5th and another without a date..

I never at first noticed the connection it was only when Dave pointed it out in another thread somewhere (can't remember where).

It could be a coincidence but it seems like an big coincidence if you ask me.

According to the poll, only 40 odd members said they think the SayNo day would be a good idea so due to this I didn't think it was going anywhere.

I also agree that maybe one or two newspapers got it first and I think that each newspaper has "spys" and they inform their competitors of any stories that may be headlines or become headlines, or they get a copy of each newspaper before its released to us jo public.

As I said in this thread, this publicity is good for us but does have its drawbacks like these companies are now aware of this site and if they are underhanded (like Sky) will actually remove any numbers we find or change so it's not diallable.  All this must cost the companies money but obviously nothing compared to the potential loss of revenue to their 084x/087x numbers.

bbb_uk wrote on Oct 12^th, 2006 at 7:28pm:

It could be a coincidence but it seems like an big coincidence if you ask me. According to the poll, only 40 odd members said they think the SayNo day would be a good idea so due to this I didn't think it was going anywhere. I also agree that maybe one or two newspapers got it first and I think that each newspaper has "spys" and they inform their competitors of any stories that may be headlines or become headlines, or they get a copy of each newspaper before its released to us jo public.

I have a simpler explanation which is that Daniel produced a press release referrring to the works of this site and his day job and sent it out, especially as the coverage in the various national newspapers is basically very similar.

Of course if this isn't the case perhaps Daniel can tell us how he thinks the story may have got to several of the newspapers at the same time? ;) ::)

The ghost of NGM lives on.......................................................

And i was one off the forty that said lets do it  but it looks like it will not happen shame :(

dad2711 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2006 at 10:10pm:

And i was one off the forty that said lets do it  but it looks like it will not happen shame :(

we're not actually sure if the next best thing has happened with all the publicity that has happened recently
[smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

well lets hope with all the puplicity that has happen that it has a positive outcome to only help and push forward the idea that more and more people do not like and will not phone non geographical numbers  because i only dial geographical numbers and there is many out in the uk like me   :)

dad2711 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2006 at 5:52pm:

well lets hope with all the puplicity that has happen that it has a positive outcome to only help and push forward the idea that more and more people do not like and will not phone non geographical numbers  because i only dial geographical numbers and there is many out in the uk like me   :)

The publicity I hope will have helped inform other consumers who are totally unaware that these numbers are in fact stealth premium rate numbers.

For it to be effective and force companies to reconsider their use then this I would have thought could only be done by writing/emailing companies concerned.  I've explained a bit more about this in this thread.

Like the draft letter  bbb_uk it could help i think :)

dad2711 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2006 at 7:27pm:

Like the draft letter  bbb_uk it could help i think :)

Thanks.

As I said though, unless people are willing to write/email to these companies and they get enough letters/emails then these companies may rethink about their contact number, otherwise they wont know how much we hate these numbers.