I have also followed the advice given earlier but only because I often have to.

Whilst at work, out and about, our mobile provider (mmO2 Airwave) prohibits 087/084 Calls, only 080/01/02/050 are permitted, obviously for cost and security, I have a note book full of alternatives for the 087/084 numbers, but all but 2 companies were more than willing to give me land based alternatives, the other 2 I no longer call and never use personally.

If more people said "No, I'm not calling you on your 0870 number", the quicker it would all change

[edit]by Dave:
This thread has been split from Turn the tables.[/edit]

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FLG wrote on Oct 28^th, 2006 at 1:02pm:

Whilst at work, out and about, our mobile provider (mmO2 Airwave) prohibits 087/084 Calls, only 080/01/02/050 are permitted, obviously for cost and security, I have a note book full of alternatives for the 087/084 numbers, but all but 2 companies were more than willing to give me land based alternatives, the other 2 I no longer call and never use personally.

If your provider is 02 Airwave you must be a Policeman or other emergency services worker as no one else can have an Airwave contract.

In view of the fact that O2 extensively uses 0870 and even 0871 numbers for its own call centres from landlines and in view of the fact that 02 does include 0870 numbers in inclusive calling plan allowances (for regular O2 customers rather than 02 Airwave customers) have you not tried to challenge with the powers that be in Airwave and/or the Police how 084/7 numbers can possibly be excluded from being able to be called when they include potentially essential emergency numbers like doctors surgeries and terrorist and other sudden emergency helplines.

Obviously the problem is the extra cost to the Police if 087 calls are allowed by their coppers but surely given all the other money that is tipped down the drain in policing in the UK on politically correct projects this is a very short sighted and dangerous policy that may cost someone's life sooner or later.  I agree that 084/7 numbers shouldn't exist to begin with but surely we can't expect every emergency services worker in the UK to use as much ingenuity as you obviously do to overcome this potentially life threatening and ridiculous situation.

Have you not thought of drawing your concerns over the dangers presented to emergency service workers by 084/7 numbers being excluded and yet many government contact centres using them to the attention of your member of parliament.

Perhaps you can ask your MP if he has signed the parliamentary early day motion condeming government 0870 numbers to be found at:-

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&SESSION=875

You can contact your MP via www.writetothem.com

Or thinking about it further how about a letter to The Times or Daily Telegraph or even The Guardian drawing public attention to the fact that emergency service workers may not be able to call critical numbers in an emergency due to numbers that the public has been conned into believing are local/national rate in fact being premium rate and the Police not having the budget to afford to let its workers call these covert premium rate numbers.

~ Post title edited by Dave

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FLG wrote on Oct 28^th, 2006 at 1:02pm:

If more people said "No, I'm not calling you on your 0870 number", the quicker it would all change

The problem is, a lot of the problems with 0870 is the person on the other end of the phone is a call centre wage-slave, who very likely doesn't know the geo number, and neither does anyone in their entire organisation structure.


NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 28^th, 2006 at 1:28pm:

Have you not considered that the most abusive large conglomerates may also own the NGN vending organisation from which you have acquired your 0870 number to hit back. Therefore they merely transfer a new cost in one part of their business empire to become a new profit stream in another of itsm multi faceted and faceless arms. ;)..........................................................................

Yes I have considered that.  But Deltaphone doesn't seem much like one of them.  It doesn't quite have the slick, sleazy look.  In all honesty, looks more like a reseller for someone else - most likely Opal, a sub of Carphone Whorehouse, going by the number allocation.  It could be worse, much worse!


NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 28^th, 2006 at 1:28pm:

Who are you by the way Overlord Kain.  You post extremely infrequently but with a lucidity that is always extremely memorable.  Unless of course it is your forum name and logo that does it. I think you and LaVilleGour hold the record for being the most memorable members with less than 20 posts in total in the forum.

Lucidity? Me?  Must be the name and logo, then.  :D

Oh, and I don't know what dictionary Ofcom are using for the terms "citizen" and "consumer".  I suspect The Islington Dictionary of New Labour English.  ;)

~ Post title edited by Dave

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The access to 087/084 number via Airwave is as a result of cost, we would not never use such numbers to contact persons / companies in an emergency, for instance, if you need to contact the local electricity company, you would never use the 'customer services' number, we have number for the specialist units.

But it does prove the point - "do as I say, not as I do" in other words, it's okay for the public to spend 8pp/m plus, but not the govenment! Even though most govenment departments now use 087 number for the public to contact them

~ Post title edited by Dave

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FLG wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 10:09am:

But it does prove the point - "do as I say, not as I do" in other words, it's okay for the public to spend 8pp/m plus, but not the govenment! Even though most govenment departments now use 087 number for the public to contact them

I think we should try to get more media publicity for the fact that the emergency services' own dedicated mobile phone systems classifies 084/7 as being premium rate and bars it.  Is it 084 as well as 087 that is barred?

And what about the fact that many Police forces like Surrey Police use an 0845 number as the only publicly advertised method of non emergency contact!

I still think that ultimately the bar on calling 084/7 numbers could cost somebody their life as I can think of quite a few cases where an 084 or 087 number is the only known way to contact a particular organisation or person and no known alternatives are readily listed or available.  How would you contact the NEG subscribed doctor's surgeries for instance?

This still sounds like incredible penny pinching given that the Police are  complicit in the whole 084 scam and given how much money is generally wasted on most other aspects of Policing in the UK.

~ Post title edited by Dave

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FLG wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 10:09am:

The access to 087/084 number via Airwave is as a result of cost, we would not never use such numbers to contact persons / companies in an emergency, for instance, if you need to contact the local electricity company, you would never use the 'customer services' number, we have number for the specialist units. But it does prove the point - "do as I say, not as I do" in other words, it's okay for the public to spend 8pp/m plus, but not the govenment! Even though most govenment departments now use 087 number for the public to contact them

and

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 10:38am:

I think we should try to get more media publicity for the fact that the emergency services' own dedicated mobile phone systems classifies 084/7 as being premium rate and bars it.  Is it 084 as well as 087 that is barred?

I agree.

FLG, is there any publically available information that we can refer to that states that 084x/087x can't/shouldn't be dialled.  I realise parts of Airwave are probably confidential due to its use, etc but ideally we need a website or pubically available document that states this so that we can refer to it when contacting the government, etc.

NGMGhost - In one of Ofcon's many consultations they admitted that 084/087 were premium rate, do you know which Consultaton that was and/or if it is mentioned on their website?

Thanks.

~ Post title edited by Dave

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NGMsGhost wrote on Oct 28^th, 2006 at 1:28pm:

If your provider is 02 Airwave you must be a Policeman or other emergency services worker as no one else can have an Airwave contract.

This is not strictly the case, Local Authority Car Parking Attendants are using it. See

www.airwaveservice.co.uk

~ Post title edited by Dave

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NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 10:38am:

I think we should try to get more media publicity for the fact that the emergency services' own dedicated mobile phone systems classifies 084/7 as being premium rate and bars it.  Is it 084 as well as 087 that is barred?

The public document on that subject is (typically) vague:


Quote:

Calls to Premium Rate service numbers, international numbers, ‘Find Me Anywhere‘ numbers, international operator assistance and international Directory Enquiries numbers are all barred as default by O2 Airwave.

http://www.airwaveservice.co.uk/assets/documents/O2_Telephony_Update.pdf

~ Post title edited by Dave

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acezing wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 11:43am:

This is not strictly the case, Local Authority Car Parking Attendants are using it. See www.airwaveservice.co.uk

I thought the point of the O2 Airwave network was (a) so that the emergency services have access to a network that will not become clogged with calls from the public in the event of a local riot, pop concert or sporting event or nationally due to nuclear war, poisoning of the water supply by Al Quaeda etc and (b) so that the base stations all have better backup protection against prolonged power cuts and avoid locations where they might be knocked out by flooding.

Just what exactly is an emergency mission critical service about the work of car parking attendants and don't most car park tickets quote an 0870 number for their customers to call for payments etc. ;) ::)

~ Post title edited by Dave

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Heinz wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 12:03pm:

Calls to Premium Rate service numbers, international numbers, ‘Find Me Anywhere‘ numbers, international operator assistance and international Directory Enquiries numbers are all barred as default by O2 Airwave. http://www.airwaveservice.co.uk/assets/documents/O2_Telephony_Update.pdf

Surely this is not vague at all as it clearly suggests 084/7 are classed by O2 Airwave as Premium Rate if they cannot be dialled using the phones.  Find me Anywhere numbers have always traditionally been classified as 070 Personal Numbers so that only leaves Premium Rate Services to cover 084 and 087.

~ Post title edited by Dave

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NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 12:30pm:

Surely this is not vague at all as it clearly suggests 084/7 are classed by O2 Airwave as Premium Rate if they cannot be dialled using the phones. ...

Perhaps it is the customer, ie the police, that has stipulated that 084/087 number should be barred. Why would a telecommunications provider bar any type of number and not allow connection to them?

I presume that the emergency services are such a big customer of O2 Airwave that they will be able to get it to tailor the services to suit. If you or I request a bar on 084/087 numbers, well we don't matter because we're only a tiny tiny part of the customer base.

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More and more Police Forces are changing to the 0845 numbers and it is these numbers that are then published to other Police Forces in the event that they need to contact them. The result is that Police spending on phone calls in all Police Forces is out of control.

The only winner in all this is BT.

The losers are you and I, the taxpayers.  :(

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Quote:

The result is that Police spending on phone calls in all Police Forces is out of control. The only winner in all this is BT. The losers are you and I, the taxpayers.

I agree, and have long suggested that the cost of business in the UK is higher than it needs to be because of this scam. It has often been quoted that it costs 1.5 BILLION pounds extra for the 08x NGN calls in the UK. It is a never ending spiral downwards. Companies, and Government Departments have far higher phone bills than they would otherwise have; so they think they need to use NGN to offset their outgoing costs......

And as you say, Peter, the losers are the great British public who have far higher phone bills than would otherwise be the case - and the ultimate winner is BT and its cronies.

What many of these idiots can't see is how this is hurting the economy; hurting the public and reinforcing the (often heard) comment that the UK is increasingly being seen as a Rip-Off place to do business.

But then why should I worry? Every business and Government Department in the US has 1-800 numbers which are free from landlines AND mobiles, and - apart from the specific and very tightly controlled 1-900 numbers, there is NO revenue share. Oh, and which economy appears to be doing rather well......?  ::)

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4PetesSake wrote on Nov 4^th, 2006 at 3:43pm:

More and more Police Forces are changing to the 0845 numbers and it is these numbers that are then published to other Police Forces in the event that they need to contact them. The result is that Police spending on phone calls in all Police Forces is out of control. The only winner in all this is BT. The losers are you and I, the taxpayers.  :(

I'm out of touch on the subject now but I suspect that PNN (the Police National Network) covers such inter-force communications and standard telephone numbers are not used at all any more.

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Every year a National Police Almanac is published with details of contact Tel No's and addresses of all Police Stations. They are then distributed to all Police Forces and can be found lying around in almost all Police Stations.

These almanacs contain the 0845 or 0870 number for forces that use them and do not provide the alternative Geo no's. Therefore officers contacting other officers in other Forces are likely to use the numbers from the almanac or ones found on the Internet, unless they know about this website and search for the Geo number. There are not many who are going to do this, even if they kmow about this site, what incentive is there for them to do this, if their own Force is one of the 0845/0870 bandits.

P.S. (Different subject) On this forum, how do you know if someone sends you a Private Message?

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4PetesSake wrote on Nov 4^th, 2006 at 5:47pm:

These almanacs contain the 0845 or 0870 number for forces that use them and do not provide the alternative Geo no's. Therefore officers contacting other officers in other Forces are likely to use the numbers from the almanac or ones found on the Internet, unless they know about this website and search for the Geo number. There are not many who are going to do this, even if they kmow about this site, what incentive is there for them to do this, if their own Force is one of the 0845/0870 bandits.

But you overlook digit translation.  Even in the mid-1980's we were programming individual ISDXs to ensure calls were sent by the cheapest route.  I'm sure such things are part of SOP for PNN management.

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I am not aware of digit translation and what this does, I am guessing that it is a system that translates the 0845 No. into a geo no, that is quite clever. The Police have SOP's for almost everything else so I guess there may well be a SOP in place for this as well.

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4PetesSake wrote on Nov 4^th, 2006 at 5:47pm:

P.S. (Different subject) On this forum, how do you know if someone sends you a Private Message?

Under the SAYNOTO0870.COM title at the top it will say if you have any. You can click where it says how many messages you have.

Also, go to Profile -> Modify -> PM Preferences and set "Notify by email" to Yes if you want the forum to send you an email when you get a PM.

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Dave wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 3:16pm:

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 3rd, 2006 at 12:30pm: Surely this is not vague at all as it clearly suggests 084/7 are classed by O2 Airwave as Premium Rate if they cannot be dialled using the phones. ... Perhaps it is the customer, ie the police, that has stipulated that 084/087 number should be barred. Why would a telecommunications provider bar any type of number and not allow connection to them? I presume that the emergency services are such a big customer of O2 Airwave that they will be able to get it to tailor the services to suit. If you or I request a bar on 084/087 numbers, well we don't matter because we're only a tiny tiny part of the customer base.

Maybe o2 Airwave just break even on running the system and to top up their profits they charge a lot more for calls to 084x/087x numbers knowing that it is very difficult to avoid ringing such numbers.

The police generally use shortcodes when calling other police forces so I guess these shortcodes just dial the existing geographical numbers that have been setup years ago.  For those police forces that have gone to NTS numbers, don't they still continue to use their existing underlying geographical number anyhow.  If this is the case, then one police force calling another would still do so on the existing old geographical number.

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Police Officers and Police Staff only use short codes for dialling other Stations within their own Force area. There are no short codes for dialling other Forces. They just use whatever they can find in the Almanac or on the Internet. The other way is for Officers and Staff to ask the Force Control Room but they just give out whatever number they find in the Almanac. BT must be laughing all the way to the bank.

My local Force has recently gone over to an 0845 number which they have spent loads of money publicising, however the old Goe one still works fine however there has been talk of it being phased out.

Dave, thanks for telling me where to look to see if I have any PM's - So obvious, I don't know how I missed it.

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NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2006 at 12:24pm:

I thought the point of the O2 Airwave network was (a) so that the emergency services have access to a network that will not become clogged with calls from the public in the event of a local riot, pop concert or sporting event or nationally due to nuclear war, poisoning of the water supply by Al Quaeda etc and (b) so that the base stations all have better backup protection against prolonged power cuts and avoid locations where they might be knocked out by flooding.

O2 Airwave is a TETRA (Terrestrial Trunked Radio) network. This allows for two way radio communication which GSM does not. This page provides an insight in to TETRA and contains a list of organisations who can apply for service from O2 Airwave.

See this story. O2's GSM network can prioritise emergency service calls and presumably the other 3 GSM networks can do so aswell.

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4PetesSake wrote on Nov 4^th, 2006 at 5:47pm:

P.S. (Different subject) On this forum, how do you know if someone sends you a Private Message?

There is an option you can set in Profile to send you an email when a new PM arrives and/or for a Pop Up box to appear telling you there is a new PM when you visit the forum.

Unfortunately neither of these options are turned by default so unless you enable them you will indeed be unaware when somebody sends you a new PM.  I recommend you enable these notifcation features.

In my view both PM options should be turned on by default when a member joins the forum and only turned off if people genuinely don't want the PM facility.  Sadly this is not the case at the present time. :(

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Thanks, I have got them turned on now.

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It looks like I started a right one here! I have done some research and it appears we now have access to these numbers, although like all calls from Airwave they are subject to monitoring, however our force doesn't want them used on a full time basis, we are to use the geo alternatives (we have a very large file in most control rooms)

Another thing to note is the fact that O2 Airwave is a DIFFERENT network from O2 GSM, it used different transmitters (TeTRA)  normally in protected locations, and the network does have other functionality built in, for instance should it fail, a group of people in a local area and change settings on radios and still talk to each other, however it has some very worring faults as well.

But it is interesting to note that most forces now use 0845 numbers for public contact, however they all have geo contact numbers too, but you have to dig deep to find them.

Would TeTRA have made any difference on 7/7? No i don't think so, we was using TeTRA then, and it does NOT work underground yet, and it took o2 quite along time to get systems inplace at Russell Sq. for it to work underground.

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Sounds very interesting, that the police are trying to discourage use of 0870 and 0845, when it comes to making calls to that number, but they are very happy to provide this number for the public to use.

Maybe if they stood their ground, and decided to release a press statement that they won't use these numbers for public contact because they're a rip off, they might see a reduction on their phone bill, because other people have followed suit.

By encouraging their officers to use other means of contact means they know there's something wrong with the numbers, so why do they still continue.

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FLG wrote on Nov 11^th, 2006 at 2:24pm:

Another thing to note is the fact that O2 Airwave is a DIFFERENT network from O2 GSM, it used different transmitters (TeTRA)  normally in protected locations, and the network does have other functionality built in, for instance should it fail, a group of people in a local area and change settings on radios and still talk to each other, however it has some very worring faults as well.

The Sitefinder website does list TETRA transmitters (well it listed one not far from ours) but I agree for security reasons there are possibly some hidden.

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Shiggaddi wrote on Nov 11^th, 2006 at 5:22pm:

By encouraging their officers to use other means of contact means they know there's something wrong with the numbers, so why do they still continue.

Maybe because they really don't care how much it costs the public to ring them so long as they've got their stats (or whatever other reason they use these numbers for) as in most cases its nothing much to do with advanced network features like call routing, etc.

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bbb_uk wrote on Nov 12^th, 2006 at 10:12am:

Maybe because they really don't care how much it costs the public to ring them so long as they've got their stats (or whatever other reason they use these numbers for) as in most cases its nothing much to do with advanced network features like call routing, etc.

They should care because the extra charge makes people more inclined to call 999/112 instead which their 999/112 operators really don't want to happen.

Also with 101 now ditched and no prospect of Ofcom returning 0845 to geographic priced calls in the near future the whole issue of the inappropriate use of 0845 numbers by the Police again comes to the fore.

The most appropriate people to take this up with are the County Councillors on the Police Authority for each force as they ultimately have the power to force change on the Police, especially if the social exclusion issue due to premium charges for 0845 from PayPhones and PAYG mobiles can be pointed out.[/quote]

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bbb_uk wrote on Nov 12^th, 2006 at 10:12am:

Sitefinder[/url] website does list TETRA transmitters (well it listed one not far from ours) but I agree for security reasons there are possibly some hidden.

The locations of these transmitters are not secret as many of them have had to obtain planning permission like other mobile phone masts in planning applications submitted under the name of O2 Airwave.  A lookup on any district or borough/council planning website will reveal lots of entries in the name of this firm.

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NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 12^th, 2006 at 11:48pm:

Also with 101 now ditched and no prospect of Ofcom returning 0845 to geographic priced calls in the near future the whole issue of the inappropriate use of 0845 numbers by the Police again comes to the fore. The most appropriate people to take this up with are the County Councillors on the Police Authority for each force as they ultimately have the power to force change on the Police, especially if the social exclusion issue due to premium charges for 0845 from PayPhones and PAYG mobiles can be pointed out.

So, in my case, that'll be Essex County Council then.

That used to be 01245 492211 and, now, it's NOT!

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Heinz wrote on Nov 13^th, 2006 at 4:15pm:

So, in my case, that'll be Essex County Council then. That used to be 01245 something-or-other and, now, it's NOT!

But Mole Valley District Council will always be sticking to 01306 numbers due to the foresight of one of the now ex councillors in getting a resolution unanimously passed by all his councillor colleagues banning the senior executive staff from signing up for 084/7 numbers on the promise of free switchboards, free call redirection etc, etc. ;)

Just as well given that the new Yuppie CEO it has recently appointed is just the kind of guy to sign up for 084/7 if he had been offered a free Voip switchboard etc on the back of it.

The Police Authority is separate from the County Council or the Police but a set number of County Councillors get a place on it as of right.  They don't all get a place on it.

I see Essex Police Authority has just been recruiting Independent Members for its Police Authority although the closing date was on Oct 27th even though the web page concerned maintains there is still time left to apply (but sadly now only if you have access to a Tardis).

www.essex.police.uk/authority/news.php?articleId=2641

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NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 13^th, 2006 at 4:27pm:

I see Essex Police Authority has just been recruiting Independent Members for its Police Authority although the closing date was on Oct 27th even though the web page concerned maintains there is still time left to apply (but sadly now only if you have access to a Tardis). www.essex.police.uk/authority/news.php?articleId=2641

Can't say that I'm too impressed with the final sentence on that page either - they can't even get the year right!


And how about the utter cheek of Sussex Police.  The following is a warning from them about yet another scam involving, allegedly, international premium rate numbers.  

And the number they ask worried recipients to call?  A disguised premium rate number!


Quote:

Police warn of debt collection scam [ Date published: 31/10/2006 ] Brighton & Hove police have issued a warning about a bogus debt collection scam. Many people have contacted police to say they have received a threatening letter from a company called Astradelph International Debt Collection based in the Czech Republic. The letter tells the recipient that they owe money, usually between £250 and £650, and that if the money is not paid, legal action will be taken. PC Karen Langrish said: "We have recently received many calls from worried local residents saying that they have received a threatening letter in the post from this company. At the bottom of the letter there are various telephone numbers listed which are all international codes. They look like premium numbers which cost a fortune to dial. These numbers go straight to an answering machine where a dialling tone kicks in, tricking the caller into thinking they have not yet been connected when, in fact, they have. The letter also gives account details so that payments can be made directly to the organisers Astradelph. "We believe this is a scam operating to obtain large amounts of money either from people ringing the premium lines or sending money to the account. "Anyone who receives such a letter should contact us on 0845 60 70 999."

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