While watching the BBC news today, I saw the item about the large number of people who had signed the 10 Downing Street website e-petition against road pricing and the interview with the originator of the petition.   This made me wonder whether it would be an idea for someone from this site, perhaps the moderator or someone else with a high level of knowledge, to start a petition against NGNs and requiring all users of NGNs to provide, be law, a geographical alternative number with equal prominence.   If the petition took off, not only would it help in terms of showing the large number of people who find the current situation unnacceptable but could lead to media interviews with the petition originator (hence it would have to be someone knowledgeable and happy to have the publicity) hence giving more publicity to the campaign leading to more signatures.   If one Google's on 10 Downing Street, there is a link to create a new petition.   I have to say I did sign a couple of the existing petitions while checking the site and the promised email link on which you have to click to validate your signing does not come back immediately but thought this might be worth a try.  What does everyone else think?



~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title

I've just checked for an existing e-petition now and found one here.

It was started by a Mark Harrison and even has a link to this website.

I'm unsure who this, I assume, forum member is.

Although I agree with the reason for the petition, I don't believe that anything will ever be done simply because the Government is very unlikely to insist that companies display their alternative number.  However, if it were Government-funded bodies like surgeries, DVLA, schools, etc then that is different to which the government does have an overall say on.

Thanks for that, I have just accessed & signed the existing petition hence that should now be 31 signatories!   The road pricing one has over 190,000 signatories hence my point.   While it may well be that the government will not listen, at least a large number signing the petition would send a message to users of NGNs that those opposed to their use are not just a handful of lunatics but a significant number of citizens.   I intend to encourage all those I know who are opposed to NGNs to sign and I think it would be good if members/users of this site did so as well.

Let's get everyone to sign anyway!

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 2:20pm:

I've just checked for an existing e-petition now and found one here. It was started by a Mark Harrison and even has a link to this website.

Thanks to Mr Harrison for starting this. If you are a regular member who wishes to remain anonymous on here, then perhaps you can re-register for the purposes of posting on this thread and discussing the E-Petition.

Mentioning it on here and MSE will obviously mean more people signing it. I checked a few months ago and it wasn't there. There is also no date of publication either.

I think that it's an excellent idea. We managed over 1000 public responses to one of Ofcom's consultations, so with about three months to go, there's potential to rally the troops.

Sorry to be an old cynic, but over a million people marched against the Iraq war,and what difference did it make?

The same thing about this petition , too many vested intrests would be out of pocket, so it will be ignored.

jimjim wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 6:41pm:

Sorry to be an old cynic, but over a million people marched against the Iraq war,and what difference did it make? The same thing about this petition , too many vested intrests would be out of pocket, so it will be ignored.

With the Iraq war, the public are likely to vote for a different party if they don't agree with it. With media publicity behind the Say no to 0870 campaign people will visit this website and use alternative numbers. This petition should get the media interested if we get enough signatures, even if the government do nothing. The media is key in making people aware.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

It might help the cause more if the petition details were made more accurate and clearer. At the present time it says this.Which gives the impression you can get FREE calls to Geo Numbers etc etc.

"Many organizations hide behind 0870 / 0845 numbers which are charged at up to 8p/min (earning revenue for the organization while the customer is kept on hold) - whereas most people could use the real geographic UK phone number to contact he organization much more economically, since a number of phone providers now charge 0p/minute for calls at any time of day - and just a small flat rate connection charge of around 5p for calls up to an hour."

Can this petition not be advertised with link for everyone to see when we log onto the site. After all it only takes a few minutes to sign the petition and I noted that when I logged in there were only 5 members but 45 guests. If we can get many of the guest to sign it that would be great.

It was suggested it would be a waste of time, but the time invested is minute - certainly a lot less than writing this or any other post!

Lets go for it.

Great Idea, GET A HUGE AD ON HOME PAGE!!! lol

I am really disappointed.... not many signatures is it???

Come on everyone, get your name and anyone else you know on this list...


Quote:

Current signatoriesMark Harrison, the Petition Creator, joined by: christopher hughes Andrew Cormie Howard Smith Tim Evans andy barton Russell Stagg Owen Blacker Mark Benjamin A Vaghela Philip Chillag Julian Holliday Alex Bailey Andrew Gilbert Judith Johnson James Sutherland Catalina Paul Brant Peter D Gardner David Anderson Gareth Lewis David Willingham sally north Hugh Hulme J M Briscoe Brian Varney C Woods Michael Gathergood nick irvine-fortescue Lorian Hartgroves Samantha O'Keeffe Barbara Chamberlain Keith Hammond Steven Abrams Peter Farres Ian Keith Scott Laurie Hudson Jake booth

acezing wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 7:22pm:

It might help the cause more if the petition details were made more accurate and clearer. At the present time it says this.Which gives the impression you can get FREE calls to Geo Numbers etc etc.

But you can get free calls to 01/02 numbers (in terms of the marginal additional cost of making that call) - that is the whole point.

Ok you have to pay a modest fixed monthly fee equal to as little as £4.33 per month over 18 months (www.euphony.co.uk) to get unlimited 01/02 and EU landline calls but the marginal cost of making each additional 01/02 call is nil.  That is where various people have been going wrong with the press by suggesting it is 3p per minute for an 01/02 call versus BT's new sneaky 7p per minute (with hidden new 3p connection charge).  But that is only true for BT Option 1 customers - but for customers of BT Option 3 or a cheaper package like Euphony the cost of each additional 01/02 call is 0p per minute versus £4.23 per hour to 0870 and £6.00 per hour to 0871 and £1.80 per hour to 0845 in the weekday daytime.

Coming back to the petition I imagine the road toll one got 180,000 signatures due to Jeremy Clarkson or some other major motoring journalist mentioning its existence in their newspaper column or on their website.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

The description on the site might not be perfect, but let's not waste this opportunity - It is good enough.

I notice since it has been highlighted that the signatures have gone up from 32 to 52, but if we are going to make a real impact we need all those who use this site just to look up numbers and who don't go into the discussion session to know about this. They out number us by a huge amount. At any one time it is often 10 - 1 and as we are regulars and they are not they are probably more varied so the ratio is probably even greater i.e. it is often many of the same members that are on at two different times, but probably completely different guests.


Can a BIG BIG message be put up that everyone sees as soon as they enter the site please. The sooner the greater the number of signatures on the petition.

52 signatories is nothing and can afford to be lost.

If the message is not right in the petition we need to make it right by creating our own petition with the right wording and then put a link to the petition on the Home Page of the site and in the number lookup section.

Amazingly, I found out about that petition not through this site, which I visit frequently, but directly through browsing the Government web site, in regards to another petition.  Why has this petition not been made a sticky topic on this board?   :-?

I feel for all www.saynoto0870.com's work in maintaining and updating an excellent database, that the campaigning side for this site (which I believe the site was set up - at least partially - to address) - requires more effort in getting the message out to people.  

This information really should be displayed when searching for an address - perhaps via a 5 second message asking the user to join the campaign by signing the petition.  The saynoto0870 search facility is used by many people a day, and could be conveyed to users who don't use, aren't aware of, or haven't got time to browse the forums, as a means and way of supporting the purpose for which the website was created.

Strongly agree. Have suggested it myself here. It is noticeable that it is quite easy to get into the top few petitions on the petition web site and make an impact.

Also I made the point that for everyone of us that posts to this site hundreds use it to look up numbers who will not see this thread so with a prominent message on coming into the site we should be able to get the petition into hundreds if not thousands.

Please do it.

Big plea to make a splash about this petition and lets get lots of signature. Since mentioned here 2 weeks ago it has gone from 31 to 105, but most people coming to this site won't see this thread, they just come for a number. Lets get a message up with a link to encourage them to sign.

It is currently 297th out of 2295! 1500 signature will get it on to the front page

We've got nothing to lose by doing this and I'm now the 115th name on the petition - every name counts... 8-)

gdh82 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 5:20pm:

I've got nothing to lose by doing this and I'm now the 115th name on the petition - every name counts... 8-)

Good to see you back, gdh82.  :)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Thanks Dave!  :)  I've been around just haven't posted for a while.

Do you know if Daniel would send an e-petition email all SayNoTo0870 registered members, encouraging them to email others etc etc  Let's give it some momentum...

gdh82 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 5:44pm:

Do you know if Daniel would send an e-petition email all SayNoTo0870 registered members, encouraging them to email others etc etc  Let's give it some momentum...

He might do. IIRC he sent out an email before to get people to respond to that consultation.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

gdh82 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 5:20pm:

We've got nothing to lose by doing this and I'm now the 115th name on the petition - every name counts... 8-)

Let's be honest though, with 60 million people in the UK, we've not a lot of hope of TB and Co. taking any notice of us!

P.S. I e-signed days ago.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Heinz wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 5:50pm:

Let's be honest though, with 60 million people in the UK, we've not a lot of hope of TB and Co. taking any notice of us!

That might be so Heinz, but if the petition numbers were to grow then at least it might draw media attention again to the 0870 rip-off ?  That's why I think, there's nothing to lose by giving it a go....apart from 25 seconds of our time completing the petition!  ;)


~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Agree (as you probably guessed!). Another 3 since last night and up 22 places on the list since I posted a couiple of days ago. Lets gets hundreds to sign and move it on to the first page.

Fantastic response!  Thank you to everyone who has responded and to the mods for putting it as a sticky.  Lots more names - not bad for a couple of days.  ;)

So I have a question now which is directed to anyone who is good at writing this kind of thing...   :-/

Could someone come up with a "generic email" that can be copied and pasted to all my mates / friends / family / work etc., that they can then forward on to all their mates etc.?

Preferably in short, sharp wording to explain what it's for, for those that don't know what it's about, and to persuade those that have heard of it to click the link and sign the petition

Please someone pass some inspiration this way...   :)

Thanks!

wacs wrote on Jan 28^th, 2007 at 8:15pm:

Could someone come up with a "generic email" that can be copied and pasted to all my mates / friends / family / work etc., that they can then forward on to all their mates etc.?

Good call!  In relation to previous Ofcom consultations, Daniel (one of the guys behind this website) has sent emails to all members of this forum that include the SayNO logo and look professional so if Daniel could do the business again, then that would be ideal for starting a viral campaign to encourage others to sign the petition ?

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

What happened to the idea of putting a link to the petition on the home page - this is already in lots of our posts so why not right at the top?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/

I think the biggest problem is the sheer number of people who still mistakenly believe that their calls to 0845/0870 numbers are either free within their "options" package - or that the cost is still the same as a local or national call.

Somehow the message has got to be got out there that it really does cost much more!

Does anyone have a journalist friend that can spread the word?

As I write this there are 20 times as many guests as members logged on to the site.

There are numerous posts here asking for the petition to be prominently advertised and other suggestions to get a high volume response.

Those reading these posts clearly are going to the petition as it is now upto 125 signatures and gone up another 20 places in the list in the last couple of days.

BUT most guests (who out number us 20-1 at this moment) probably don't see this as they are probably just looking up a number.

Please, please please put a prominent link to the petition as people log in.

Thank you.

Keith wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 2:34pm:

Please, please please put a prominent link to the petition as people log in. Thank you.

Completely support this too!

Hopefully this shouldn't be problem - ideally a link should be included BOTH on the home page and on the search for a number page.  I know Daniel has done something very similar when trying to highlight various Ofcom consultations in the past.  I sent a pm to Daniel regarding all of this on the 28 Jan - will let you know the reply.


Heinz wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 5:50pm:

P.S. I e-signed days ago.

PS Nice one Heinz!  :)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Great!  Thanks Daniel  :) An E-petition link is now on the home page!

But be even greater if this could be duplicated on the SEARCH TO FIND AN ALTERNATIVE NUMBER PAGE ?  ;)  Some people bypass the home page all together by bookmarking the search screen.

gdh82 wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 6:55pm:

Great! Thanks Daniel  :) An E-petition link is now on the home page! But be even greater if this could be duplicated on the SEARCH TO FIND AN ALTERNATIVE NUMBER PAGE ?  ;)

Seconded.  :)    I don't visit the home page ... I have the "search facility" bookmarked (and until recently didn't use the messageboards).

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Even better why not have it on the search screen AND the results screen (if you found this site useful why not take a moment to sign the e-petition?)

Thanks Daniel. It worked. 30 extra signature in a matter of hours and moved up 50 places on the list to 244.

Agree with other suggestions to maximsie exposure. Got to get up to 1500 signatures to get on front page of petitions.

I am concerned that this petition does not go far enough as it does not demand that Ofcom take immediate action to stop the misdescription of 0845 and 0870 numbers as local and national rate and to make such a claim punishable with a fine.  It also does not draw attention to the grotesque failure of Ofcom to fulfil its principal duty to protect the UK citizen consumer under Part 3(i) of the Communications Act 2003 and under the terms of the EU Misleading Advertising Directive.

Also it makes the call cost comparison against the Finarea 5p per call instead of most consumers paying as little as £1 per month for unlimited 01/02 calls at no further charge.

I think the petition should be calling much more for Ofcom to force compulsory call price announcements for such calls, to ban the terms lo-call and National Rate and to demand that call queuing over 1 minute is banned on all 084/7 numbers.  If calls extend beyond that time the call centre must provide an automated facility to call back the person who called.

Also disappointment at Ofcom's failure to make 0845 calls once called Lo-Call into normal calls priced at the 01/02 rate after 31st January 2008 needs to be expressed.

I may consider starting my own petition and deploying a very effective marketing technique to get a very large number of signatures.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 10:23pm:

I may consider starting my own petition and deploying a very effective marketing technique to get a very large number of signatures.

That sounds like a great idea.  ;)  

What you're looking at is a very different - and no less valid - approach(es) to address the 0845/0870 issue.  A separate petition / campaign can only add to the growing voices of dissent and bring the 0870 issue to wider attention.  :)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

wacs wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 11:01pm:

What you're looking at is a very different - and no less valid - approach(es) to address the 0845/0870 issue.  A separate petition / campaign can only add to the growing voices of dissent here and bring the 0870 issue to wider attention.  :)

At the heart of the present 084/7 scam is the disgraceful and deceitful telecoms regulator Ofcom which has been given the powers of the Office of Fair Trading and the Comptetition Commission over broadcasting issues but failed to use them sensibly or responsibly.  This is because the regulator has been hijacked by various telco cronies like Stephen Carter (ex NTL and former CEO) who until recently worked there who have simply ignored the regulator's public interest duties on telecoms matters.  The most glaring and shameful examples of this are in terms of Patientline at 50p per minute to call patients in NHS hospitals and the NEG 0845 doctors surgery scheme scam.

It is the regulator who is responsible for the outrage of these numbers still being wrongly known as local/national rate and for the outage of them not being forced on to an 09 premium rate code where they belong so they should carry the can.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

I too would support another petition! :)

Whilst the current e-petition may not be that wide in scope, there is a danger of course of trying to include too many points in a petition and so put off people from signing it at all!

PS THANKS again to Daniel for adding an e-petition link on theSEARCH TO FIND AN ALTERNATIVE NUMBER PAGE  :) :)

PPS 277 sigs and counting...

gdh82 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 12:42pm:

PS THANKS again to Daniel for adding an e-petition link on theSEARCH TO FIND AN ALTERNATIVE NUMBER PAGE  :) :)

Absolutely.  Thanks Daniel!  :)

And for the writing being slightly larger, it leaps out at you, given the placement.  It seems to be getting a great response, at times looked like one person was signing up a minute, which is pretty amazing   :o

All that's needed now is the generic email to pull some more people in. (I know quite a few that probably use the site on and off); there's no reason why an email shouldn't bring more site visitors, and generally generate more interest and awareness (why not?)  ;)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

But I still think it should be Daniel's petition so he can control it and the wording in it.

On that basis I will not be signing the petition as it not this website's petition.

Keith wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 9:43pm:

Thanks Daniel. It worked. 30 extra signature in a matter of hours and moved up 50 places on the list to 244. Agree with other suggestions to maximise exposure. Got to get up to 1500 signatures to get on front page of petitions.

And here's the link (as viewed by size)... http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/list/open?sort=signers

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 3:20pm:

On that basis I will not be signing the petition as it not this website's petition.

In the absence of an alternative, wouldn't it be wise to go with what we've got ?  That's my approach - I can always sign up to a second peitition later !   ;) :)  We're all fighting the same battle!  >:(

PS 419 sigs and counting... Is there an easy way to find this petition's relative position compared to others ?

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

gdh82 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 5:44pm:

PS 419 sigs and counting... Is there an easy way to find this petition's relative position compared to others ?

Yes, it's here  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/list/open?sort=signers   :)   This petition is currently on the 3rd page.  

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Doh!  Think that post above was being typed as I was typing (that's my excuse!) ;)

Thanks mate! :)

Sad person that I am I have been monitoring the progress during the day (Boy am I bored with work!)

It has been averaging a very, very steady 30 signature an hour since 11 pm this morning. At 6pm it was on 429 and 129th in the list. Going up the list now is going to be much harder as the petitions above have many more signatures so the gaps get bigger between petitions.

I assume the numbers signing will drop away as we become reliant on the less regular visitors to this site to sign up.

Keith wrote on Jan 30^th, 2007 at 6:09pm:

It has been averaging a very, very steady 30 signature an hour since 11 pm this morning. At 6pm it was on 429 and 129th in the list.

It's now 506 and has been rising over the last hour or so when I've been checking it. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Now 906.  And on page 2!  :)

Its hit 1000.

Now 71st on the list and 3rd on the list of Information and Communication petitions

Long way to go before it overtakes the 1st petition on Road pricing which has over 600,000 signatures, but as that is growing by 5,000 - 10,000 signatures per day I'm rather suspicious that these are genuine signatures!!!!

Keith wrote on Feb 1^st, 2007 at 9:42am:

Long way to go before it overtakes the 1st petition on Road pricing which has over 600,000 signatures, but as that is growing by 5,000 - 10,000 signatures per day I'm rather suspicious that these are genuine signatures!!!!

I think you forget how many car clubs etc there are out there and that a lot of them are actively promoting the signing of this petition to their members.

Whereas this is the hidden ripoff that most of the public are still totally unaware of.  Also annoying though this telephone con is the consequences on the freedom of the individual of New Labour road pricing and conjoined spy in the cab proposals (which will also obviously potentially track your speed everywhere) are even more frightening and disturbing.  The only thing can you say is that at least those proposals are not hidden and are in the public domain and being discussed long before they may be implemented.

The single step that would vastly increase the number of signatures is for Martin Lewis to give the petition star billing in his weekly MSE emailing and/or to put a similar banner message to sign the petition on his website.

But I don't like this petition because it does not criticise Ofcom for their failure to act and demand that Ofcom takes action.  And I consider that Ofcom and their equally incompetent predecessor OFTEL are the primary guilty parties over this issue.

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

NGM Ghost: I agree with you re the petition. You may be surprised by this as I have been promoting the petition, but my view was that something was better than nothing.

You suggested your own petition and got support for it here. Why not. You know your stuff so it would be much better. You could even post a suggested draft petition here for comments first. Might be a good idea to leave until after 4 April when the current petition expires.

Asking Martin to put up on his site is a great idea if he will. Who can ask him? I assume some of you guys here have good contacts with him.

I have to say I'm dreading the government reply to the petition when it finishes. I bet they pass the buck to Ofcom.

Re the road toll petition:. It is clear that the petitions that are moving are due to web site links but 5000 - 10000 a day!!!!!! 627,000 of the adult car owning population with access to the web who can actually be bothered. The next highest petition has a mere 605,000 less signatures. Looks very dodgy.

Quote:

Re the road toll petition:. It is clear that the petitions that are moving are due to web site links but 5000 - 10000 a day!!!!!! 627,000 of the adult car owning population with access to the web who can actually be bothered. The next highest petition has a mere 605,000 less signatures. Looks very dodgy.

It's probably that someone marketed a very effective campaign.  Many individuals and businesses rely on cars as part of their work.  Many more people who don't even drive rely on those that do.  Not everyone in the UK has access to public transport.  Even more are probably more concerned by the 'privacy' angle of having their car journeys across the UK monitored.

Edited to add: Just noticed NGMs ghost has already covered most of these points!  ;)


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 1^st, 2007 at 10:39am:

The single step that would vastly increase the number of signatures is for Martin Lewis to give the petition star billing in his weekly MSE emailing and/or to put a similar banner message to sign the petition on his website.

And this I agree with   :)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Keith wrote on Feb 1^st, 2007 at 9:42am:

Its hit 1000.

1315 and counting...  :) 8-)

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Keith wrote on Feb 1^st, 2007 at 12:02pm:

I have to say I'm dreading the government reply to the petition when it finishes. I bet they pass the buck to Ofcom.

In regards to 0870, I don't think it really matters what their response is, because whatever emphasis is put on (any number of petitions relating to) how the 0870 issue should be resolved, all angles will be looked at; they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't.  My belief is in the principle of raising the profile of this issue, so that the Government knows it is not going to go away.  

~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated

Regarding Ofcom, and their alleged lack of accountability, (the details of which I am not familiar), I would find it helpful to see a separate sticky so that these issues can be discussed and explained for those who don't know.  

If a petition were drawn from this I would hope to see a question that addressed specific things that Ofcom have done and what the undersigned would like to see happen to resolve them.  E.g. "I, the undersigned petition that a public enquiry be made into the issue surrounding Ofcom's...[insert]", or something like that.

Now 1731, and on page 1   :)

We need to consider what we put in a new petition. The mess that will be 0870 being cheaper than 0844/0845/0871 is really worth noting. In addition, the lack of pricing information and the lack of action when companies lie about 0845 being "local rate" etc. It is also easily understood by the public. We don't want to write it in such a way that no-one understands and they find it 'boring'.

Dave wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2007 at 5:39pm:

We need to consider what we put in a new petition. The mess that will be 0870 being cheaper than 0844/0845/0871 is really worth noting. In addition, the lack of pricing information and the lack of action when companies lie about 0845 being "local rate" etc. It is also easily understood by the public. We don't want to write it in such a way that no-one understands and they find it 'boring'.

I still find it utterly staggering that neither Panorama or Dispatches have been prepared to run a program on the 084/7 industry when it is a ripoff costing consumers over a billion pounds a year.  They could also wrap it up with a general review of the total incompetence of Ofcom and why deregulation of BT call prices and line rental has seen line rental and minimum call cost charges rise across the industry instead of fall. :o >:( :'(

They could also review the quite scandalous cost of Ofcom and its obscenely overpaid and blatantly anti consumer directors who cost as much as the American FCC to run in total for a population only one fifth the size of the USA. >:(

I do think another petition is needed but don't think it should be done just yet.

Any new petiton should be for something more realistic in our goal as anything else would just be ignored just as the current petition will be ignored simply because unfortunately it isn't clear whether it's referring to government funded organisations or all companies.  The latter will NEVER happen in the forseeable future.

I believe that once the new 03x range is available and we have more of an idea of any costs involved in having a 03x number that we then consider another petition(s) further.

I believe specifically asking that all government funded departments/services (inc surgeries and schools) should move to the 03x range if they really need the facilities that is available via NGN numbers otherwise geographicals (using just a geographical would be cheaper to maintain/run if they didn't need the extra services offered by NGNs)

I also think having a petition that Ofcom should do more to ensure that the local/national lie is stopped and informing consumers that 084/087 carry a premium due to revenue share that takes place in most cases.  With regards to this, I believe this would be fair and honest if all consumers became aware that revenue share happens on 084/087 albeit smaller amounts compared to 09x.  In other words they are a lower form of premium rate.

If all consumers became aware that when they call an 084/087, that in most cases the end company/organisation, etc receives a share of the call costs then companies would think twice before using these types of numbers.  A perfect example is the BT lost luggage line which went from a revenue generating 0845 (which they admitted) to a freephone number.

As Dave has mentioned, we also have a problem about whether or not people who have gone through the trouble of signing this current petition despite the fact it wont get anywhere, will be bothered to sign again.  I do, however, agree that it may attract attention from the press.

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 4^th, 2007 at 7:15pm:

With regards to this, I believe this would be fair and honest if all consumers became aware that revenue share happens on 084/087 albeit smaller amounts compared to 09x.

But of course Sean Williams and his other well paid top Ofcom colleagues who are now pushing off elsewhere have seen to it that total confusion will reign because most 0870 numbers will become normal geographic rate in Feb 2008 but 0844 and 0845 will remain poorly regulated and price disclosure uncontrolled revenue share rate while 0871 is premium rate.  And that is a message that is almost possible to explain clearly no matter how good you are at advertising and marketing.

But then that was the whole idea wasn't it?  The whole idea was to leave a trojan horse that allowed the call centre industry to continue to rip off the great British public. ;) >:( :o

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 4^th, 2007 at 8:40pm:

But then that was the whole idea wasn't it?  The whole idea was to leave a trojan horse that allowed the call centre industry to continue to rip off the great British public. ;) >:( :o

Exactly!

The response to the petition will be somewhat predictable:

"Her Maj's government recognizes the public's concerns regarding 0870 numbering which is why Ofcom, the regulatory authority with a proven record of excellence and impartiality, launced a consultation during 2006 in which stakeholders were solicited for their views. We are pleased to say that, from 2008, call charges to 0870 numbers will, generally, be returned to the same costs incurred when calling a geographic number. We believe that this will address most of the concerns expressed by the petitioners."

Of course this does not address the shambolic mess that is the UK numbering system which encourages following scams:

0870 migration to 0871 and 0844;
0870 'get-out' charge clause;
Misleading descriptions of call charges (local, national, free);
Patientline;
Unsolicited reverse-billed SMS with little or no redress for the unfortunate victim (criminal offences which are sanctioned by ICSTIS);
Fat finger dialling (118866 deliberate scam);
No opt-in for PRS;
070 PNS revenue-generating scam;
DQ liberalization;
The use of premium and revenue-generation numbering by HMG and public bodies;
The use of numbering that precludes internationally-originated calls to essential HMG and public services by British citizens who reside or work overseas;
and possibly many more examples.

Ofcom and ICSTIS are morally bankrupt and techjnically inept organizations that are incapable of serving the general public. Their operating methods belong in a banana republic and not a first-world economic power. They are bisased in favor of the service providers and provide virtually no assistance to the genuine complaint from the public. Sadly, I do not see any change likley, even with a change in government - these scams are simply too engrained within the whole industry for any meaningful change to take place.

What a joke.

idb I feel almost as though I could have written your last post myself.  I think you have identified all the key issues involving these abuses.

Interesting item about an incendiary device at the office of Capita today which revealed the full extent of their massive call centre and outsourcing empire.

When one notes the close connection between Capita and the Labour party I feel sure this is precisely why Ofcom are under strict instructions to totally fudge action on NTS revenue share while being quite happy to crack down on junk food advertising to children, encrypted Sky porn channels that dare to show real hard core porn, and needless silent calls that actually cost the incompetent companies that make them extra money.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 10:56pm:

idb I feel almost as though I could have written your last post myself.  I think you have identified all the key issues involving these abuses. Interesting item about an incendiary device at the office of Capita today which revealed the full extent of their massive call centre and outsourcing empire. When one notes the close connection between Capita and the Labour party I feel sure this is precisely why Ofcom are under strict instructions to totally fudge action on NTS revenue share while being quite happy to crack down on junk food advertising to children, encrypted Sky porn channels that dare to show real hard core porn, and needless silent calls that actually cost the incompetent companies that make them extra money.

I am surprised that there has not been an investigative documentary into Capita and its businesses. I read today that it has recently been awarded a contract to provide services to Swindon council (http://www.sharecast.com/cgi-bin/sharecast/story.cgi?story_id=1057022).

I can confidently predict that the 01793 contact number on http://www.swindon.gov.uk/ will not be around for much longer.

It really beggers belief that, on the basis of a couple of complaints about porn, Ofcom takes such disproportionate action against a satellite channel, yet with over one thousand complaints in the form of consultation responses to NGN charging, it does virtually nothing.

The only way forward will be for either some deaths resulting directly from the inability to get through to some wretched NEG 0844 number, or a catastrophic incident in the UK with the subsequent inappropriate use of, say an 0871 number, to get some politician to take a long hard look at what is going on. I wish for neither of these, but this is what it is going to take.

The lunatics are firmly in charge at Riverside House and they are not going to give up without a fight.

It's also worth remembering that Matt Peacock, Communications Director for Ofcom (and still in his job) admitted to these numbers being premium rate at the end of 2004 and that something would be done in 2005. Perhaps it's worth including this in a new petition.

Dave wrote on Feb 5^th, 2007 at 11:40pm:

It's also worth remembering that Matt Peacock, Communications Director for Ofcom (and still in his job) admitted to these numbers being premium rate at the end of 2004 and that something would be done in 2005. Perhaps it's worth including this in a new petition.

And even more to the point its all recorded and can be played back to him too.

Peacock was clearly speaking off message at the time and probably hadn't yet become aware of the special protective measures for 084/7 calls being demanded by Capita, Sky and other important friends of New Labour. ;)

Interestingly I see that neither the site owner or definitely Dave and possibly bbb have signed this petition and nor have other site stalwarts like idb, Tanllan or dorf.

How did we come to give star billing to a petition with wording none of us are comfortable signing and that stupidly only mentions 0845 rather than 084x numbers, when 084x are soon going to be an even bigger problem, as they already are with the NEG doctors surgery scam of course.

The petition is at 2,500 or so, although I'm sure we could get it to 200,000 if we paid a spam emailing house to email every email address they have in the UK.  Much though I don't condone spam emailing on the whole at least this would be a topic that many recipients would actually want to hear about.

But the wording in the petition isn't right for me.  Any petition that I sign over 084/7 must also feature the incompetence and negligence of Ofcom in failing to correctly deal with the issues involved.

Are we going to go for a better worded and well advertised petition. I think we should. I think we should let thie current one run its course and them go for it again with the wording agreed here before it is posted and a campaign for signatures.  

Also just wondered whether you still thought the Road pricing petition wasn't fixed. It currently stands at just under 1 million and having just done a few samplings (7.30 pm) the signing rate is currently at an average of about 5000 per hour!!!!!!!

Keith wrote on Feb 9^th, 2007 at 7:35pm:

Are we going to go for a better worded and well advertised petition. I think we should. I think we should let thie current one run its course and them go for it again with the wording agreed here before it is posted and a campaign for signatures.

Well I have given the current one a plug in a thread on the www.adslguide.org.uk forum where some idiot tried to convince me 0870 was National Rate and on www.tivocommunity.com and their Tivo UK section saying if people don't like Tivo's 0870 number with Sky this is the way to complain.  As a result signatures on the 0870 petition shot up by around 100 in less than an hour.  Promotion elsewhere in forums sympathetic to the subject in question is very important.  I don't know if there is even a thread about the petition yet on the MSE site yet.  If there was I would have thought signatures would have hit more than 3,000.

I would favour a petition next time directly condeming the failure of Ofcom to act to protect the citizen consumer by not ensuring that these numbers could not be called local and national rate and condemning their failure to force mandatory free call price announcements (unless people choose to opt out) and their failure to educate uk consumers about the costs of calling different types of UK number.  I would also express concern about the massive costs of running Ofcom and the high salaries of its senior executives in relation to its total ineffectiveness in serving the interests of the UK citizen consumer who are its principal duty.

Embarassing Ofcom who are at the root cause of the continuation of this scam is the only way to get any action.


Quote:

Also just wondered whether you still thought the Road pricing petition wasn't fixed. It currently stands at just under 1 million and having just done a few samplings (7.30 pm) the signing rate is currently at an average of about 5000 per hour!!!!!!!

If they have a team of people constantly posting in every UK car and transport related forum in numerous threads mentioning the petition and where to sign it and if bodies like the national federation of road hauliers etc are encouraging all their truckers to sign in their newsletter and/or any trucker newsletters etc and this is a major talking point in the trucker and company rep fraternities then it is just about credible they could get this number of signatures although it ought to slow down soon.  Suppose if every trucker stop has a sign up saying to sign this petition - then that would get an awful lot of signatures as this proposal threatens all of these people's livelihoods.

The anti 084/7 petition now has 3946 signatures and has risen to position 26 in the list so half way up the front page of petitions.  Its recently overtaken a raft of petitions that were all within a few votes of each other but now has about 600 signatured to go before it hits the next one.

Mind you its put on about 500 signature since this morning when I watched the anti road toll petition cross the 1 million mark.  It now has around 1.1 million signatures.  It seems that at least some of the real people directly signing the anti road toll petition in person on the site are looking at the other petitions on the front page and seeing the anti 084/7 one and finding that they agree with it are signing it.  Loads of the other petitions the anti 084/7 one has overtaken have hardly been making any progress at all today, although some of them represent very narrow interest groups compared to the widespread appeal of opposition to 084/7

I'm suspicious as to whether the road toll petition signatures are genuine because the people signing are in general signing so few of the other petitions on the front page.  Personally I would have expected that if they got that far they would look at the other petitions on the first page and sign any they agree with.  Clearly there are several tens of thousands of real people who have signed the anti road toll petition (myself included) but the fact that it increases at 100 a minute or more slightly beggars belief.

Perhaps some newspapers have provided a simple front end to sign though without those signing not getting to see or be aware of the other petiitions on the 10 Downing Street petitions site?

Anyhow coming back to this petition if it carries on at this rate it may well end up in the top 5 soon.

5 minutes later and its increased by 9 signatures to 3955.  I wonder if links have been posted on some other campaigning sites somewhere?

Something has certainly changed as (sadly) I have been monitoring the petition and typically it was running at 25 - 40 signatures an hour during the working day and the rate dropping significantly in the evenings and the weekends. However the trend has changed this Saturday with postings matching if not exceeding previous weekday day time postings.

The petition has obviously passed many many petitions, but one petition has passed it, the one on CBT. However the Red Arrows petition was catching up very very fast, but is now dropping back with the renewed impetus to the 08** petition.

Looking good. Wonder if OFCOM know about it?

Keith wrote on Feb 10^th, 2007 at 11:03pm:

Looking good. Wonder if OFCOM know about it?

You can be sure Ofcom will notice it if it gets into the top 10 and journalists start commenting on it. Anyhow its especially likely to get noticed at the moment if it gets that high due to all the people looking at the anti road tolls petition.

I believe Ofcom Communication Director, Matt Peacock, still keeps an eye on the site to see what we are up to although he decided to refuse to talk to me any more after I suggested he only stayed on at Ofcom as he couldn't get a job anywhere else with such a high paid salary.  He suggested this was an "ad hominem" (that is "attacking the man" for those of you who do not speak Latin) remark, something that goes on all the time in the world of Politics but is apparently unacceptable towards Ofcom's extremely well paid but far from very effective civil servants.  Or perhaps he has finally realised that as his colleagues completely betrayed the promises he made to us on Radio 4 over two years ago that there is no point in him trying to play Mr Nice Guy with us any more.

P.S. Surely all that has changed on the rate of weekend signup is the number of weekend newspapers and radio and tv programs all mentioning the road tolls petition so bringing people to the website and then stumbling on the 084/7 petition.

I am puzzled by this thread.  Surely the problem that this site feels so strongly about has been FULLY addressed by Ofcom and it just will not exist by this time next year.  OK, a year, but the problem is so serious that industry must be given time to work out what to do about cut revenues etc.  No silly partitioning the government is going to bring the solution forward more quickly than that!

Yogi2

Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 1:54am:

I am puzzled by this thread.  Surely the problem that this site feels so strongly about has been FULLY addressed by Ofcom and it just will not exist by this time next year.  OK, a year, but the problem is so serious that industry must be given time to work out what to do about cut revenues etc.  No silly partitioning the government is going to bring the solution forward more quickly than that! Yogi2

Dear Yogi or should I call you Mr 084/7 Call Centre Director,

As I'm sure you are perfectly well aware Ofcom is not addressing the matter of revenue share on 084 or 0871 numbers in Feb 2008 and is also alllowing a get out for 0870 numbers as long as they have an announcement the call price is not the normal geographic rate.  And although this does not allow revenue share directly to the end user to continue on 0871 any more I am sure Ofcom would not have allowed its existence if mobile phone companies and the like were not telling it in secret that they were still intending to rip people off over 0870 numbers.

But anyhow we fully expect the main 0870 exploiters to move either en bloque to 0871 at 10p per minute at all times if the new ICSTIS regulations are weak and hide the fact it is premium rate sufficiently or to 0844 at 5p per times if ICSTIS regulations look too tough.

From the tone of your enquiry I do not believe it is genuine anyway since you clearly are informed enough to know about the Ofcom proposals and thus you also know that the minor change by Ofcom next year will not stop the generality of the 084/7 call centre ripoff.

Still it seems that in this case you may not be smarter than the average bear after all though. ;) ::) ;D

Yes, Yogi2, we SHOULD 'partition' the government - into as many pieces as possible!!!

NGM,  why do these people still keep putting their heads above the wall??  Too easy for you - but I suppose some easy 'target practice' helps the day along!

firestop wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:25am:

NGM,  why do these people still keep putting their heads above the wall??  Too easy for you - but I suppose some easy 'target practice' helps the day along!

I think they are still seething about just how much money they are going to lose and probably believe we are as stupid and gullible as the rest of the population that they so readily manage to ripoff with their call centre industry. ;)

Hence they just want to test out that theory with silly statements such as "but I thought Ofcom was dealing with the whole issue from 1st Feb 2008". ::)

NGNsGhost,

Exactly what are you expecting from a regularity body in a world where genuine suppliers are offering genuine services through revenue sharing?  This site appears to campaign specifically about 'behind your back' revenue sharing on 0870 and from February 2008 this will explicitely be stopped.  Campaign won, they listened, how about a celebration rather than a moan?  Yes the public are going to be cofused what '08' means, traceable to the obvious fact that the whole concept upon which '08' was based no longer exists.  (It was a very useful and simplifying concept at the time.) The perception of '08' has now got to change from 'same as geographic' to 'you are paying for the service you are getting, but without the stigma and over the topness of 09'.  Campaigns are surely well under way for this change in perception.  '08' will also be regulated as such.  The correct place to simply telephone companies that need NTS will be '03' but surely it is correct to allow companies to keep 0870 WITHOUT revenue sharing when they consider continuity is of overiding importance.  This will just be a historic anomily resulting from intertia.  As for companies that because of odd circumstances can allow a connection but at unexpected rates PROVIDED they warn you free of charge each call that this is the case, are you campaigning to illegalise this and simply stop them from providing the connection at all?

(NB I have no vested interest ot inside knowledge of any of this at all, it is simply my view as a telephone subcriber.)

Yogi2

Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

NGNsGhost, Exactly what are you expecting from a regularity body in a world where genuine suppliers are offering genuine services through revenue sharing?  This site appears to campaign specifically about 'behind your back' revenue sharing on 0870 and from February 2008 this will explicitely be stopped.

No its a campaign against all hidden behind your back 084/7 call centre numbers including 0870 but also including 0844 5p per minute numbers like Patientline and all the current 0870 numbers that will undoubtedly mainly relocate to 0844, 0845 and 0871 as of 1st Feb 2008 to continue the same scam.  And the reason 0871 is to be allowed to continue on this number range and not forced to move to 09 is precisely because Jo Average will think it is the same charge as 0870 and so be taken in.  And although 0871 is going to nominally be under ICSTIS control a new weak as water regime will be developed without the normal ICSTIS brand and without call queuing being banned.   Most of the extortion happens through 10 to 20 minute long queues that are frequent on these numbers,

But you know all this and just hope that we dumb saps will go away and stop attacking your beautiful money extorting machine.

People like you don't even have a conscience about patients having to paying a 450% surcharge over normal Payphone 01/02 prices to call their doctors on 0844 numbers due to NEG Patientline.  Read the site and its content and you will soon know the problem of if you are £ signs in your eyes 084/7 call centre man you will pretend these previously normal phone calls are now "value added" in some inexplicable way.  The only value added of course is in fact the ramped up cost of the phone call. ;) ::) >:( >:( >:(

Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

Exactly what are you expecting from a regularity body in a world where genuine suppliers are offering genuine services through revenue sharing?

If genuine suppliers are offering genuine services via these numbers then why is it most teleco's, businesses and government departments, etc claim these numbers are either local or national rate?


Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

This site appears to campaign specifically about 'behind your back' revenue sharing on 0870

As mentioned by NGMGhost, it's not just 0870.  It's all the hidden revenue on 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 numbers we campaign against.

Many companies, etc are using these numbers not for the call features available but mostly because they can earn money from people calling them (ie their customers) without their knowledge.

Do you really think if the truth is told about these numbers like "they don't cost local/national rate", "they can cost upto 40p a minute from some mobile networks" and "the company you are ringing in most cases is receiving money from the call including whilst they keep you waiting", that these numbers would be as common as they are now?

I believe the answer is no.

A perfect recent example is BA.  Now BA normally use 0870 for everything but due to a press-releases about 0870 making companies money, they decided to use an 0845 for the lost luggage claims number.  Then shortly after a newspaper article stating that BA actually made money from people calling about their lost luggage even on an 0845, BA then used a freephone so as not to attract unwanted attention like they were profiting from those who had to ring their lost luggage line despite the fact that BA lost it in the first place.

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 12:25pm:

A perfect recent example is BA.  Now BA normally use 0870 for everything but due to a press-releases about 0870 making companies money, they decided to use an 0845 for the lost luggage claims number.  Then shortly after a newspaper article stating that BA actually made money from people calling about their lost luggage even on an 0845, BA then used a freephone so as not to attract unwanted attention like they were profiting from those who had to ring their lost luggage line despite the fact that BA lost it in the first place.

But now Willie Walsh has brought in an even more pernicious hidden  BA charge, that he knows will trip up many passengers without them realising in advance and before it is too late, on taking a second suitcase on a flight that is out all proportion to the actual cost of conveying that second bag.

These days businessmen don't seem to want to charge a fair price for a fair service but want to have a low headline price to sucker the punters in before then hitting them with numerous hidden unscrupulous charges they weren't expecting.

Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

Campaigns are surely well under way for this change in perception.  '08' will also be regulated as such.  The correct place to simply telephone companies that need NTS will be '03' but surely it is correct to allow companies to keep 0870 WITHOUT revenue sharing when they consider continuity is of overiding importance.  This will just be a historic anomily resulting from intertia.

What should have happened is that all revenue sharers were forced to move off 08 to 09 or possibly as a compromise to 06 for lower cost revenue sharers with a slightly less stringent regime on queues (but say no more than 5 minutes maximum and only 2 minutes as a maximum average queue).  Instead people who want to do the right thing have to move to the 03 range if they have an 0845 number and this is quite wrong as these are mainly charities, the Police, local government, Inland Revenue etc.  0845 should also have become geographic rate on 1st Feb 2008 if not sooner.  The excuse about the very fast declining dial up industry is totally bogus.  They would have had no trouble migrating customers to 0844 or wherever else just as 0870 users will have no trouble relocating to 0844 or 0871.  If changing numbers is such a pain they why are 0845 voice number users in the public and charitable sectors who don't want to charge extra being forced to do just this.


Quote:

As for companies that because of odd circumstances can allow a connection but at unexpected rates PROVIDED they warn you free of charge each call that this is the case, are you campaigning to illegalise this and simply stop them from providing the connection at all?

Please specifiy the "Odd Circumstances".  I can only think of a cynical circumstance of mobile phone companies wanting to charge their callers extra for calls that impose no additional costs on them.  When I went to a  meeting at Ofcom for consumers on the NTS proposals I couldn't get Sean Williams to give a straight answer on this topic.  It is a obviously some cosy and seedy deal with the telecoms industry to allow the 0870 ripoff to continue in some form.

Yes I do want these 0870 numbers to be illegalised for any additional charge.  If you want an additional charge then move to 0871 or 0844 and declare it properly.


Quote:

(NB I have no vested interest ot inside knowledge of any of this at all, it is simply my view as a telephone subcriber.)

I simply don't believe you.  Why would an ordinary customer who didn't mind how much he paid for calls go to such much trouble to read up on the consultation proposals? ;) ::)

An 084/7 call centre MD perhaps on his day off trying to wear two hats and to pretend he is an ordinary phone consumer for the purposes of this conversation.  But obviously not due to bringing all the NTS proposal knowledge and business vested interest with him/her.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 12:50pm:

What should have happened is that all revenue sharers were forced to move off 08 to 09 or possibly as a compromise to 06 for lower cost revenue sharers

As an even better compromise which probably would have been more effective is that Ofcom ensured us public were aware of the actual costs of these numbers (and the fact they can vary substantially in some cases), stop the misleading local/national rate lie, and admit that revenue sharing albeit smaller still exists.  I like to believe that if the public was aware of this honest approach then most companies would be shamed into changing to a lower cost range numbers and even going back to geographical (or the new 03x).


Quote:

The excuse about the very fast declining dial up industry is totally bogus.  They would have had no trouble migrating customers to 0844

I agree.  A lot of big/main dial-up providers have already migrated to 0844.  Wanadoo/Orange is the latest that I'm aware of.  They (Wanadoo/Orange) displayed a message on screen when you dialled-in using their 0845 and gave you the option of downloading their new dialler software or manually changing dial-up settings to their new (obviously more expensive) 0844 number.

This proves despite what Ofcom said (and what ISPs told Ofcom), that its entirely possible.  It seems to be that when companies want to change/migrate numbers then that is fine but when forced to (or the threat of) change, then they go back moaning to Ofcom that the costs would be too great and couldn't be done.  There is absolutely no difference, that I can see, in cost if a company changes numbers of their own free-will or forced to do so and given time to change.  This is why Ofcom allowed a massive 19months nearly before the changes happened to 0870.


Yogi2 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

(NB I have no vested interest ot inside knowledge of any of this at all, it is simply my view as a telephone subcriber.) NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 11th, 2007 at 12:50pm: I simply don't believe you.  Why would an ordinary customer who didn't mind how much he paid for calls go to such much trouble to read up on the consultation proposals? ;) ::)

I agree with NGMsGhost here for reasons mentioned already and the fact that you mention NTS.  No normal/average person is aware of what NTS is.  To them, 08x are known as 'local' or 'national' rate.  If really lucky some maybe aware of them being non-geographical rate but definitely not NTS.

Most of all, all normal/average persons that have become aware of the expense behind these numbers and/or the fact that they earn the company/gov dept money, have used this site to look for alternatives and ask for alternative to 08x numbers and generally comment on them being unknowningly ripped-off.

Has anyone else had problems trying to sign the petition recently?   I signed some weeks ago & my husband tried to sign this one (& to anti road pricing one) yesterday.   He completed the process & received the message that emails had been sent but these have not arrived nearly 24 hours on nor is there any explanation for this (when I have signed these petitions it sometimes took a while but not more than minutes).   He & I do share an email address but surely this shouldn't cause a problem as many people are the same and that would effectively disenfranchise 50% of them!   He has tried again a few minutes ago & the site now says it is too busy to take signatures & to try again later - do I smell a rat?    How many people will bother to try again?   Is this a way for the govt to stifle views they don't like?

No problems here with signing several petitions.

Your email provider may be blocking the confirmation email as spam for some reason or they may only allow the same email address once but if so you would think they would say so when you tried to sign the petition.

You really ought to get your own email address Barbara.  Sharing an email address with your hubby is just not good practice.

The petitions website seems to be down at the moment, but I recall reading in the FAQs that although you can sign up two people at the same address, you cannot sign more than one name per email address.  They explain why they came to that decision somewhere in the FAQ   :)

Did find answer in FAQ, have set up separate email address for my husband (he was using mine since he had been "made redundant" after 26 years with Local Authority by trendy youngish New Labour Chief Exec under weak LibDem council - sorry about political point but thought NGM's Ghost might appreciate it!)   There was no problem with my ISP/email provider as I had had no problems at all.   It still took ages to sign after I had set up his address so they need to look at that.   Re their reason for refusing to accept signatures from those sharing email addresses, it is really rather pointless as anyone can set up additional addresses in the names of people they know or vote for other people if they know their addresses & passwords.

Numbers roaring ahead now (5.5K) due I guess to the publicity of the Road Toll poll during the last few days as several other petitions have been also given a big boost (particularly the populist topics). Now 24th in list. Although we have been overtaken by 3 we are still going up strongly.

Site was on its knees for much of yesterday I guess due to volume and it is still partly broken as it is giving an old figure of 4708 which isn't changing on the first screen for the 0870 petition.

Also note there are more guests on this site now, which I assume is a knock on consequence.

There was also a boost after NGM Ghost publicised this earlier elsewhere.

The anti 084/7 petition is gaining numbers rapidly but now staying around 25th in the list after initially zooming up a lot of places. So as it reaches the top 25 there are other petitions in the top 25 that seem to appeal just as much to potential signatories is how it rather looks.

The anti 084/7 petition also isn't making progress nearly as fast as "scrap speed cameras" from Paul Smith of www.safespeed.org.uk and spiritually supported by most www.abd.org.uk members such as myself.  This only had 100 signatures when I signed it a couple of days ago, just after it started, but now has over 6,000 and is already well ahead of the anti 084/7 petition.  I would anticipate scrap speed cameras reaching the top 5 before very long.

NGM Ghost: The 3 that have past the 0870 petition are: Speed cameras (as you pointed out), funding for Red Arrows and the CBT petition. Nothing else is coming up from behind at present, but having said that when they do they can come up fast!

Interestingly the 0870 petition is now catching the CBT petition again. The Red Arrows petition was collectiing signatures at almost the same rate as the 0870 petition (the difference grew and dropped) for days then there was a big boost.

My interpretation on this is that the extra interest in the Road Pricing petitition caused a huge interest in other petitions in particular the Speed Camera petition. However it will cause little interest in a specialised topic like CBT.

Hence Speed Cameras rocket past 0870, but 0870 now catches up CBT.

The red Arrows are popular and well known so they will pick up signatures.

Unless a whole new batch of popular petitions come on the scene (which they might do) there are still a few petitions ahead that the 0870 petition will pass, BUT the numbers of extra votes needed now to move up a place makes it much slower progress.

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 11:59am:

My interpretation on this is that the extra interest in the Road Pricing petitition caused a huge interest in other petitions in particular the Speed Camera petition. However it will cause little interest in a specialised topic like CBT.

The Speed Camera petition is also being promoted by www.safespeed.org.uk to their members and is a much populist message than 084/7 as rather than people simply having to pay few quid a month extra for phone calls they may lose their whole driving license and thus their livelihoods.

My sister got two fixed penalty tickets from speed cams on just one day last year and yet she is not a fast driver.  Ironically the fast drivers like me are fare more eagle eyed about looking out for and slowing down for speed cams because otherwise we know we might not have a driving license at all before long. :o

I've reported the fact that the signatures are not updating on the 0870 petition. It is odd because I have checked some others and they work. It is just stuck on 4708, whereas it is already 1000 more than that.

However in the list it is rolling on. between 12 and 12.30 it had added 130 signatures (typically 15 - 20 in 30 minutes a few days ago), out polling the Speed Cameras at 91. Red Arrows added 156 however. To be honest I think that is a blip as the Speed Cameras is going much faster over a greater length of time.

Currently it is down. Tried once and got a message saying it couldn't handle the numbers. Tried again and it crashed.

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 2:28pm:

I've reported the fact that the signatures are not updating on the 0870 petition. It is odd because I have checked some others and they work. It is just stuck on 4708, whereas it is already 1000 more than that.

It's OK from here. I noticed that the total number was going up and down. Perhaps it's a cached (stored) version of the page, rather than the 'live' page. It's currently 5864.

To get round this press Shift+F5 or Shift+Refresh.  ;)

Thanks but I can't change it no matter how many times I refresh or if I go in or out or reboot my m/c - it always reads 4708 ! I can refresh the list of petitions fine.

By the way now on 6124. 22 onlist and will move up another 3 places very soon.

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:05pm:

Thanks but I can't change it no matter how many times I refresh or if I go in or out or reboot my m/c - it always reads 4708 ! I can refresh the list of petitions fine.

So if you press Shift+F5 or hold shift and press Refresh it doesn't work?  :-/

Nope

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:09pm:

Nope

What browser are you using?

Explorer V6. Not having a problem on anything else including refreshing the petition list. It is only the page where you sign the petition that I get the old details

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:19pm:

Explorer V6. Not having a problem on anything else including refreshing the petition list. It is only the page where you sign the petition that I get the old details

Not getting the problem with out of date data on the 10 Downing Street petitions site here.

That is very worrying as it sounds like it is me.

Why would all the internet pages I go into refresh ok except this one. other pages on the site refresh ok, it is just this page. That doesn't make any sense to me - hence I assumed it was a problem with the site.

Had an idea to force a refresh by selecting all signatures. It updated it ok. However if I go back in I'm back on the old screen. Agggghhhhhh

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:30pm:

That is very worrying as it sounds like it is me. Why would all the internet pages I go into refresh ok except this one. other pages on the site refresh ok, it is just this page. That doesn't make any sense to me - hence I assumed it was a problem with the site.

But are you visiting those other web pages as often. ;)

Have you tried clearing your temporary internet cache and checking the settings for it to see if this solves the problem.

Sadly yes I am.

How do I d that please and can there be any unpleasant consequences?

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:39pm:

Sadly yes I am. How do I d that please and can there be any unpleasant consequences?

Select the Tools menu then Internet Options and then under Browsing History the "Delete" button to empty the cache and the "Settings" button to change how often the browser checks for a newer version of a stored page.

There shouldn't be any adverse consequences from deleting the cache, especially on a broadband connection where new versions of the stored deleted pages would download very quickly when you use them.

Thank you.

Didn't work. Deleted history but still get same old page up when I go into that site.

On settings I'm set up for Automatic for 'newer versions of stored page' and temp interet folder is 135MB. |Should this be bigger?

I do make very heavy use of the internet.

ASnd not looking forward to reentering my sites in the address bar.

Keith, do you know if you are connected via a proxy server?

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 5:11pm:

ASnd not looking forward to reentering my sites in the address bar.

That would only be deleted if you clicked the button to delete history.  The delete temporary internet files button does not delete the remembered URLs of websites previously typed in your browser.

May be this issue is being caused by your ISP having some form of cache on popular web pages that they are requested and only updating that Cache periodically?

Dave wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 5:23pm:

Keith, do you know if you are connected via a proxy server?

There is something odd going on with the site as if you click the View menu and Reload on IE7 the number of signatures alternates repeatedly between two different numbers 70 or so votes apart.  It doesn't just go up when you hit Reload, it goes up and down between those two fixed numbers.

It wasn't doing that on Sunday when I watched the road tolls petition going over the 1 million mark.  It only went up each time I hit Reload.

I suspect there are now two different servers supporting the site and they are only periodically updating new signatures between one another.  This is no doubt as a result of the amount of traffic being received.

The anti 084/7 petition now has 6.380 votes and is at position 19 in the list, the highest it has reached so far.

I can think of a couple of busy web forums where if it is mentioned repeatedly it will pick up a lot more votes.

One is www.digitalspy.co.uk and the other is www.pistonheads.com

NGM - Thank you. Yes I deleted the wrong thing. I have now done it correctly and it is working fine.

When I asked if there were any unpleasant consequences you clearly didn't take into account you were dealing with an idiot.

Keith wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 5:38pm:

NGM - Thank you. Yes I deleted the wrong thing. I have now done it correctly and it is working fine.

As long as you didn't delete your favourites too. :o :'(

It shouldn't have been remembering the old page with the settings you had though.  I think there is probably more than one computer centre supporting that website address now and that seems to be causing confusion to web browsers.

I get 6380 now every time, which is what you quoted sometime ago. So I'm starting to think it isn't me.

Now in Position 17 with 7045 signatures.

It looks like somebody has posted this up on a couple of major websites that are attracting in a lot of signatures as that's up 700 or over 10% in about 3 or 4 hours

I though this was mildly amusing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6354735.stm

<<
A government minister has labelled the controversial online petitions on Downing Street's website as an own-goal thought up by a "prat". So how does the man behind the site defend it? And does the petition reliably reflect national mood? [...]

An unnamed minister has reportedly said the petitions website was dreamt up by a "prat" and was proving a public relations disaster. Tom Steinberg, who did not come up with the idea but did put it together, denies the minister was talking about him.

When Downing Street needed to make its e-democracy dream a reality, it approached MySociety, Steinberg's non-aligned organisation which builds websites to empower people in the civic and community aspects of their lives.

For example, its HearFromYourMP site pressures MPs to tell constituents who sign up what they are doing. [...]
>>

Just come across this petition to the PM: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/


Quote:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to compel all companies and other organisations of any kind to publicise non-geographic telephone numbers (e.g. 01/02) in addition to any geographical numbers which they may already be publicising (e.g. 0845/0870).

The deadline is 31 January 2008 and there is currently 55 signatures. Note that the petition has mistaken geographical numbers for non-geographical numbers and vice versa.

Dave wrote on Feb 14^th, 2007 at 5:32pm:

Just come across this petition to the PM: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/

Clearly deserves to be allowed to die a death as its sentiments are the same as the other petition but it is more poorly worded.

By the way why didn't I get an update email in relation to your last post Dave?

I see the main anti 0870 petition has now reached Position 13 on the list with 9013 signatures, having surprisingly gone back ahead of Scrap Speed Cameras by over 800 signatures.

Either its naturally popular with those against the road tolls (quite likely) or this anti 0870 Petition is being plugged on a few web forums or in a few chain emails.

What a shame we didn't get a petition going against these numbers that slammed the failure of Ofcom to come up with a sensible and logical solution that the public would readily understand.

Unfortunately once the road toll signature petition closes no other petitions are going to get anywhere near this number of signatures.

Anyhow it seems clear there is widespread opposition to these numbers given the level of support being picked up.

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 14^th, 2007 at 10:54pm:

By the way why didn't I get an update email in relation to your last post Dave?

I have no idea. Nowt to do with me!


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 14^th, 2007 at 11:01pm:

Anyhow it seems clear there is widespread opposition to these numbers given the level of support being picked up.

I notice that you've signed it now.

Dave wrote on Feb 14^th, 2007 at 11:15pm:

I notice that you've signed it now.

Yes I signed it some days ago and several thousand signatures before you finally did Dave. ;)

I have also been responsible for several hundred of the signature via links to the petition I have posted in hot threads on other web forums that I thought might be sympathetic to the cause.

When I realised it had unstoppable momentum I thought it was better than nothing at all.  If Daniel hadn't stuck the link on this website though we could have started our own petition with Daniel's name on it slating Ofcom's ineptitude and incomptence in serving the best interests of the UK citizen consumer over this matter.

I see that Daniel predictably has still not signed it though. :o ::)

Who does he work for in the daytime that makes him so secretive about his surname.  MI5 perhaps. :-/

Topped the 10,000 signature mark and about to enter the top 10 petitions.

Keith wrote on Feb 16^th, 2007 at 11:19am:

Topped the 10,000 signature mark and about to enter the top 10 petitions.

No 11 now and staying ahead of Scrap Speed Camera surprisingly enough.  I suppose the number of users of this website to find alternate numbers to 084/7 who have been prepared to sign the petition may have been the main factor.

However I can just see Ofcom saying they have dealt with the 0870 issue from next year and are brining in 03 numbers if the media approach them.

The petition ought to have slammed Ofcom for failing to force proper disclosure of the actual cost of these calls and their tacitly permitting continued misdescription as local and national rate by organisations ranging from the Post Office through to BT and Sky, their failure to also force 0845 numbers to become geographically priced on 1st Feb 2008 and their failure to make 0871 and 0844 numbers move to the 09 prefrix code.  Also Ofcom's blatant failure to fulfil its primary duty to protect the best interests of the UK citizen consumer on this issue.

Surprising the make St David's Day a public holiday one is in the Top 10 but then there are over 1 million welsh people in the UK. ;)

Also its surprising about the Reduce the Classified period for Census data from 100 to 70 years one doing so well.  Must be a very organised campaign behind that one.

Now in the Top 10 at Position 10 with 10,642 signatures having just overtaken the Make St Davids Day A National Holiday (or words to that effect) petition.

Now in postion 9 with 12,016 signatures.

Something on the home page of this site today about recent publicity on BBC News 24 and another BBC channel making it much busier than usual.  Has this led to all the extra signatures on the petition?

I've now registered on this forum.  Great to see the petition going so well - and I hope it also provides publicity back to this forum so that people can find alternative numbers.

Hi,

You don't have to pay any monthly fee on top of your line rental to get the 0p/minute rate to 01/02 numbers.  You might want to have a look at http://www.call18185.co.uk  - I'm using it and there is no monthly charge - they just bill you by direct debit for the calls you make - i.e. just the initial 5p connection charge per call, if you're on a BT line.

mh wrote on Feb 18^th, 2007 at 5:44pm:

You don't have to pay any monthly fee on top of your line rental to get the 0p/minute rate to 01/02 numbers.  You might want to have a look at http://www.call18185.co.uk  - I'm using it and there is no monthly charge - they just bill you by direct debit for the calls you make - i.e. just the initial 5p connection charge per call, if you're on a BT line.

Welcome to the SayNo forums mh.

You're preaching to the converted there (have a look at the Cheap Call Providers forum - you may find some other tips).

Now in Position 8 with 13,628.  Can't be long before someone in the media picks up on its rapid ascendancy.

I only wish the petition had slated Ofcom for failing to prevent 084/7 numbers for still being widely described as local/national rate in material not covered by ASA guidelines and for failing to change 0845 over to being included in inclusive call packages.  They should also be slated for not having forced 0871 and 0844 numbers to move to the 09 prefix or at the very least to a low cost premium rate category with somewhat less strict controls (but still severely limiting call queuing to no more than 3 minutes) on 04 or 06.

Good to see the petition in the top 10 but a shame it doesn't slate the main villain of the piece Ofcom for its sorry and disgraceful failure to take adequate action on the matter on behalf of the UK Citizen Consumer as required of it by Section 3(i) of the Communications Act 2003.

Now at 13,754.  Another 126 signatures in just the last 4 hours.  Some way to go though to overtake "recognise that music and dance should not be restricted by burdensome licensing conditions" with 15,425 signatures in Position 8.

Save the Royal Surrey Hospital in Guildford on 18,101 is doing remarkably well but I can only imagine that both local Lib Dem and Conservative politicians may be doorknocking and/or local newspapers have publised the URL for a petition benefiting such a geographically limited area to be doing so well.  Of course I suppose there is probably also mention of the petition in newsletters aimed at doctors, nurses and other healthworkers in the NHS.

"Now at 13,754.  Another 126 signatures in just the last 4 hours.  Some way to go though to overtake "recognise that music and dance should not be restricted by burdensome licensing conditions" with 15,425 signatures in Position 8. "

Well it's gone past 15 000 today - from 6 000 a week ago.
Should be getting some recognition soon??
Let's keep at it.

Although now 7th (helped by the road pricing petition moving off the list) the rate of signatures has decreased recently. It is now less than the Music and Dance petition above it so has stopped catching it up. Also the petition on photography in public places is coming up fast from behind.

Any ideas how we can give it a further boost? Where can it be advertised more?

Keith wrote on Feb 21^st, 2007 at 1:45pm:

Although now 7th (helped by the road pricing petition moving off the list) the rate of signatures has decreased recently. It is now less than the Music and Dance petition above it so has stopped catching it up. Also the petition on photography in public places is coming up fast from behind. Any ideas how we can give it a further boost? Where can it be advertised more?

I think the point is that although pretty remarkably less than one in one hundred of the people who bothered to sign the anti road tolls petition bothered to sign any other petition on the 10 Downing Street website (which I do find very hard indeed to believe if all the signatures are genuine and most people signing dirctly visited the Downing Street petitions website) at least those signing the road toll petition were people who hated being ripped off by a  further hidden government stealth tax.  Therefore those 1 in 100 anti road tolls signatories who did bother to look round the other petitions on the site were people particularly likely to object to being ripped off over 084/7 stealth premium rate call charges.

Now that many people visiting the site just want to save the Red Arrows, save the Royal Surrey County Hospital (in both cases meaning spending more money by the government) or have less burdensome regulations for music and dance then not as many of them are going to be those who object to hidden ripoff charges.  Also the total number of people visiting the site and signing any petition is now going to be way, way down.

Clearly getting Radio 4 You & Yours or other consumer radio and tv programs to cover the success of this petition would be likely to add a whole load more signatures to it.

Following the report of BBC Breakfast on Saturday, we have broken the record for number of visitors to the forums. Currently there are 93 guests online, so someone must be looking.

Perhaps Daniel can send an email to every registered member. We are approaching 10,000 registered members on the forums. It would be good if Martin Lewis can mention this in one of his emails as well.

Now we have 144 guests.

Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

Heard on the news last night that despite over 1million signing the petition (now removed as pointed out earlier) concerning the congestion charge being rolled out to other areas, the government is going to go ahead as planned anyhow.

That means the 08x petition doesn't stand a chance (which I suspected anyhow).  Had the petition been carefully worded to at least specifically mention that government funded depts (surgeries, schools, etc) shouldn't use 08x then we would have stood more of a chance that it would be seriously looked at.

This petition expires in April so trying to think ahead what happens now?  If we create another petition that specifically mentions government funded depts shouldn't use these numbers and that Ofcom should do more for consumers like better informing us that these numbers are just a lower stealth premium rate, how many of the current 16,401 that have signed will sign another one again?

Personally, I think we should have held off until this one ended and carefully thought of a better worded petition so that consumers only signed one and that the government would more likely take notice off because it's reasonable to expect government funded departments to stop using these numbers to earn revenue (or "rebate" as they like to call it).  I can imagine a lot of those that signed wont be happy and will wonder why they have to sign another one!

No disrespect to the creater of the petition because in a perfect world that's what we would all like but realistically there is no way on this earth that the government would take any notice and force all companies/organisations using these numbers to use geographical or publish a geographical number.

Recent posts had become more about the congestion charge and other stealth taxes moreso than the e-petition for which I'm to blame  ;D.  Therefore, I've moved these off-topic replies to here.

I'm old enough to remember when 0845 numbers first came into play. At this time, it was cheaper to call a local number than it was to call a national number, so 0845 enabled companies to offer a "local" means of contacting them, wherever they were located in the country.

Times have changed since then and we now have the option of a number of telecoms providers who allow us to call ANY UK number using inclusive or free minutes. It's sad that 0845 and 0870 are now being used by companies to make money - exactly the opposite purpose for which they were originally designed!

I believe we should be asking for an abolition of these numbers altogether, on the grounds that they are no longer a useful resource for UK customers.

readingsteve wrote on Feb 26^th, 2007 at 12:12pm:

I believe we should be asking for an abolition of these numbers altogether, on the grounds that they are no longer a useful resource for UK customers.

You will find that rather a lot of regular members of this site have already done this at some length in their responses to the three previous OFTEL and Ofcom consultations on this issue.

Ofcom's solution is to only deal with 0870s being returned to geographic rate after 1st Feb 2008 (about 10 years later than should have happened) with a get out if a company makes an announcement saying the call price is higher than normal 01/02 rate.   And 0845 mainly used by charities and government and the Police for voice calls are to go on being charged at higher premium rates (especially from mobiles and BT Payphones) on the totally spurious grounds that to cut their call prices would hurt the business of a very fast dieing dial up internet industry. ::) >:(

Whilst any protest against the fundamentally unfair NGDs has my support, the point seems to be being missed. Surely the point is that in these days of PDA's, mobile phones, and even home phones having significant number memories, not to mention the fact that, for the most part, our species can still read and write numbers, the argumant for a 'single, memorable number becomes invalid. The only reason I can perceive for using a NGD is to generate additional income for the provider and user. This is a cheap shot in itself, and bad enough when the companies using them make it clear what the call charges are. However, the real nastiness comes about when they are used as a means of funding 'free' helplines or other neccessary or unavoidable resources. I would encourage EVERYONE to spread the word join this petition. Whilst the road pricing one seems to have done little good, this, I think, is a different issue and one where enough pressure can be brought to bear on the rule makers to get something done.

I totally agree with Scatman.  
We need to publicise this petition as much as possible.   I would suggest writing to all the newspapers and Radio and TV to try to get them to report the existence of this petition.

The Anti Road Pricing petition was initially started by emailing all the members of Car Clubs, Classic Car Clubs for example.  All members were urged to pass on the email to their friends.  Thats how they got the large number of signatures going and then when the media noticed the momentum really got going.   Can anyone think of a relevant large group of people who could be emailed about our 0870 petition?

loddon wrote on Feb 27^th, 2007 at 10:50am:

The Anti Road Pricing petition was initially started by emailing all the members of Car Clubs, Classic Car Clubs for example.  All members were urged to pass on the email to their friends.  Thats how they got the large number of signatures going and then when the media noticed the momentum really got going.   Can anyone think of a relevant large group of people who could be emailed about our 0870 petition?

The entire 1 million strong user base of www.moneysavingexpert.com who get Martin Lewis's weekly email would be a good starting point I reckon. ;)

"The entire 1 million strong user base of www.moneysavingexpert.com who get Martin Lewis's weekly email would be a good starting point I reckon."

I would strongly agree, NGM,  but isn't Martin Lewis now a (well) paid member of the 'media establishment', and, as such, doubt that he would wish to involve himself in anything that might smack of 'political' posturing.

firestop wrote on Feb 27^th, 2007 at 2:50pm:

"The entire 1 million strong user base of www.moneysavingexpert.com who get Martin Lewis's weekly email would be a good starting point I reckon." I would strongly agree, NGM,  but isn't Martin Lewis now a (well) paid member of the 'media establishment', and, as such, doubt that he would wish to involve himself in anything that might smack of 'political' posturing.

He still seems keen on recommending any consumer activity likely to help save them money though and ending the great 084/7 ripoff surely would help do so.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I have written to Martin Lewis asking if he will publicise this Petition on his website, endorse the Petition and promote it to his membership by email if possible.   I also referred to the debate on this Forum.   Let's see how he responds.

My money says he won't!!

Had you bet the last time people were making similar predictions, I think you'd have lost your money.

The man has mentioned 0870 issues on several occasions, and this site is supported by him, so perhaps this presumptive criticism is undeserved, especially as there was some variance of opinion even amongst people here on the effectiveness of a petition, whether in general or the specific wording of that one.

careful firestop.  While it makes a change to see someone other than me being the recipient of one of andy9's rather acerbic posts if you are tempted to respond to his comments you may well live to regret it as I have done..................................

Hey guys, I know this is an open forum, but we're supposed to be on the same side! Let the fella try. If he fails no harm done, but if he succeeds we all move forward eh! :)

I will await my regular 'Moneysaver' email from Martin with baited breath to see if the petition is mentioned/recommended.  I'm still sceptical though.

However, I see a 'Martin Lewis' has signed the petition today....could it be??? ;)

Currently there are 19,990 signatures now.

MSE Martin has now mentioned this in his weekly email tips sent out today - see here, and I quote:-

Quote:

Saynoto0870. New petition, add your voice This site's been campaigning against the opaque 0870 number charges for years. If you too want to see them done away with, I'm happy to support a petition for parliament that's been started. Of course to find out how to avoid the hideous expense of 0870 numbers you can read the full Saynoto0870 article.

Can I just say thanks Martin.

hear hear.

Not yet had that Moneysaver email, but I am now wearing sackcloth & ashes.
Apologies to Martin, and even to andy9 if I upset him with my scepticism.
I must have suffered too many disappointments as a small child!!

I have written to Martrin Lewis to express our appreciation for promoting the Petition on his website and in his Newsletter email to all his members.  His endorsement is a big help.

I suggest that what we can do now is to each email at least 10 friends urging them to sign the Petition and each pass on the message to 10 more friends.  

Also, can some people write or speak to the Press and TV/Radio.   I have written to the Mail and Express and have had no response.  Maybe others can do it better than me.   Or shear weight of numbers may cause them to take notice.

Lets keep this activity going!!

I have just e-mailed the editors of all the major national newspapers with a request to publicise the existance of the petition. Perhaps we could try our local newspapers and MPs?

I wonder if it is possible to extend the deadline of the Petition by ,say, another 2 or 3 months?   Extra time may allow us to increase the number of signatures.

Does anyone know if Mark Harrison, the originator of the Petition, is registered with this site or how he may be contacted?

Thank you Scatman -- just what is needed.  

It will be interesting to see if any Editors acknowledge or even reply to your email.

loddon wrote on Feb 28^th, 2007 at 11:24am:

Does anyone know if Mark Harrison, the originator of the Petition, is registered with this site or how he may be contacted?

I think I may possibly know a relative of Mark Harrison but I haven't yet put the question to them.  The person I know (not Mark Harrison but another Harrison) is very anti 0870 and knew all about this site quite independently when we happened to discuss the topic quite a while ago.  I will now ask the question and let you know.

Martin Lewis has now mentioned the anti 0870 petition in his latest weekly Money Saving Expert email that I have just received.  However it is only over half way through the email so it won't really grab the attention of the lazy email reader who only reads his top few money saving items.


Quote:

Saynoto0870. New petition, add your voice  This site's been campaigning against the opaque 0870 number charges for years. If you too want to see them done away with, I'm happy to support a petition for parliament that's been started. Of course to find out how to avoid the hideous expense of 0870 numbers you can read the full Saynoto0870 article.

However the petition has added 200 signatures in just the last 20 minutes and now stands at 22,716 in 6th place with very few to go to overtake "recognise that music and dance should not be restricted by over burdensome licensing conditions" and having already re-overtaken "Save the Royal Surrey County Hospital in Guildford".  Even "repeal the Hunting Act 2004" with 33,850 is not far away.....

There are supposed to be 1 million recipients of Martin's email so let's see what happens...................................................

I take your point, NGM, about the position within Martin Lewis' Newsletter.  However, I am grateful that he is showing it, considering some earlier opinions, and I did ask him this morning to keep showing it on the website and within his Newsletter until April 4th.  There is nothing to stop you or anyone else writing to him with your suggestions or opinions.

I now think we should try to get the idea of a chain letter going --  each person sending the message to 10 people and asking them to send it on to 10 other people.  The email should of course contain a direct link to the Petition.

Well since my post at around 6.30am this morning, the petition has an extra 3,607 signatures.  So in just over 13hours it has gained over 3.5 thousand signatures just at the time it had started to decline new signatures.  It currently stands at 23,597 signatures.

I have sent the following message to everyone on my personal email list.


"We, the British Public, are being ripped off by many Corporations, large and small, overcharging us on phone calls to them.

They are using high charge call numbers 0870, 0871, 0845 and 0844, calling them wrongly national or local rate.  The truth is they are much higher than current normal rates but more importantly they are excluded from all call packages.  Packages such as BT Together, Talk Talk, OneTel and most Mobile phones inclusive calls.  On a mobile these numbers can cost you 20-30p per minute instead of being free within your call package.

You might think this is small beer but if you are kept waiting for only 10 minutes, listening to irritating music and spurious messages, a call can cost you 1, 2 or 3pounds.  Multiply that by the number of times you phone a call centre for your broken washing machine, the Bank, Building Society, Insurance Company and countless other organisations and information or breakdown lines and you could be paying hundreds of pounds a year.  Even Government Departments and Agencies are are perpetrating this scam -- DVLA,  NHS Direct, Revenue & Customs, BBC, Police, Jobcentres, the Pension Service, even Doctors using 0844!!

This is a major scam on the British Public.

You can do something about it NOW by signing the Petition against 0870 numbers on the Prime Ministers website:-

                 http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/  

Cut and paste this URL into your browser to go straight to the Petition.  Read the Petition and the section giving "More details from the petition creator".    Then sign the petition -- follow the directions given on the website.   Simple.

This Petition deserves the support of all .  Please forward this message to at least 10 of your friends and contacts.  Many thanks.  

If you are fed up with being ripped off by these 0870, 0871, 0845, 0844 numbers you can very often find a normal geographic number by using the following excellent website:-

                http://www.saynoto0870.com/

Good Luck"

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 28^th, 2007 at 8:01pm:

Well since my post at around 6.30am this morning, the petition has an extra 3,607 signatures.  So in just over 13hours it has gained over 3.5 thousand signatures just at the time it had started to decline new signatures.  It currently stands at 23,597 signatures.

Currently it is at 24,806, so the mention on Martin's email has definately worked.

Thanks loddon for the suggested email. I think it will be a good idea if we can get an email together so Daniel can send it to all members of the forums.

Dave wrote on Mar 1^st, 2007 at 10:10am:

Currently it is at 24,806, so the mention on Martin's email has definately worked. Thanks loddon for the suggested email. I think it will be a good idea if we can get an email together so Daniel can send it to all members of the forums.

The anti 084/7 petition now stands at 25,036 signatures and is in sixth place overall, however I fear it will be overtaken soon by the petition to Posthumously Award Bob Paisley A Knighthood which is growing very fast in size.  And you can imagine what will happen if it gets mentioned in The Sun or the Daily Mirror's football section.......................................................................................

The anti 084/7 petition now stands at 25,036 signatures and is in sixth place overall, however I fear it will be overtaken soon by the petition to Posthumously Award Bob Paisley A Knighthood which is growing very fast in size ....

So what is to be done about it?

Have you emailed all your friends urging them to sign and to pass the message on to at least 10 of their friends.   A resulting chain letter is probably the best way we can succeed at this.

loddon wrote on Mar 1^st, 2007 at 2:32pm:

Have you emailed all your friends urging them to sign and to pass the message on to at least 10 of their friends.   A resulting chain letter is probably the best way we can succeed at this.

I personally hate chain letters so I won't be doing that.  I would only email people who I know are already sympathetic to the cause.

More effective would be to persuade someone like Jeremy Clarkson to give it a mention on Top Gear as even though its not a motoring subject per se loads of car manufacturer customer service lines are on 084/7 numbers so a story about a frustrated customer being kept on hold could easily be worked in along with  a mention of www.saynoto0870.com and the EPetition.

Good idea.  Will you be contacting Jeremy today then?

I am glad the petition is growing & like the suggestions to make more people aware of it.   I have today been forwarded an email by my son regarding making St George's Day a public holiday (not a Downing St petition, I'm note sure where it came originated); I have suggested a trade that I will vote for that if he supports the anti 087s/084s petition & passes the info to his friends/colleagues.   Amazingly, the St George's Day issue has over over 700,000 registered votes so their tactics, whatever they are, are working.   Still, if we all do our bit, as has been said, we might make an impact and at least ours is a serious issue to which the govt will have to respond, even if as pathetically as usual.

I think this site is great and use it a lot.  For a long time I have held the view that it should be compulsory for companies to display the geographic alternatives to their 0870 and 0845 numbers.  However, I do have one little niggling doubt.  

Those of us with inclusive landline phone packages might find that if the law is changed our phone providers may well cease to offer these packages because so many of the calls the public needs to make during the day are to 0870 and 0845 numbers.  We all know that it is frequently these numbers which keep us hanging on for ever and a day so it would very quickly become uneconomic for the phone providers.  I know this might sound very selfish but I do worry that, after all the hard work, if the law is changed the public may still lose out.  I feel we are in a 'catch 22' situation.

I still tell all my friends and acquaintances about this wonderful site, though.

i noticed another petition here: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/

Linda wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2007 at 11:50am:

Those of us with inclusive landline phone packages might find that if the law is changed our phone providers may well cease to offer these packages because so many of the calls the public needs to make during the day are to 0870 and 0845 numbers.

Hello Linda, and welcome to the forum.

In reality I cannot see that such a law will be passed. The main thing is that it will bring the issue to journalists' attention who will report on it. In the next few weeks, the industry regulator, Ofcom, will start allocating numbers beginning 03 to telephone companies. These numbers will provide the advantages of 0845/0870 numbers such as call routing and statistics but will cost the price of a geographical call. So on an inclusive package, it will be included.

The difference at the receiver's end is that it will, in all probability, charge the receiver for calls. This will be a reversal to the current state of affairs where the receiver is often paid, or at least does not have to pay for the call routing etc.

And come 1 February 2008, the plan is that 0870 will be reduced to this '03' rate. 0844, 0845 and 0871 will be left as is, meaning that they will be more expensive than 0870 and that those companies that opted for the cheapest number, 0845, (which was once local rate for many) are now charging more than those on 0870 who opted to charge more than them in the first place!!!

Dave,

Such naive optimisim in your last post.

Have you read Ofcom's latest NTS Focus Group minutes posted by idb last night? ;)

This petition http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/ seems to have the terms geographic and non-geographic the wrong way round.  Surely it is the 0870 and 0845 numbers which are non-geographic.

Linda wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2007 at 12:45pm:

This petition http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/ seems to have the terms geographic and non-geographic the wrong way round.  Surely it is the 0870 and 0845 numbers which are non-geographic.

Yes it is the wrong way round.  Perhaps that is why it only has 102 signatures.

NGMsGhost wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2007 at 12:43pm:

Dave, Such naive optimisim in your last post. Have you read Ofcom's latest NTS Focus Group minutes posted by idb last night? ;)

Yes, I know; one telco has asked if they can extend the 'deadline' anf Ofcom has said it will consider.

Dave wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2007 at 12:58pm:

Yes, I know; one telco has asked if they can extend the 'deadline' anf Ofcom has said it will consider.

But as we know the feedback of one important and powerful Telco is often enough to change Ofcom's mind ,whereas the written feedback of 1,000 citzen consumers can be cheerfully ignored it would appear. ;) ::) >:( :'(

First the good news -- voting for the Petition is now up to 28718.

Second, the not so good news -- we have been overtaken by the Vote for Bob Paisley's knighthood.   Nothing against this, he was I am sure an admirable football manager and a gentleman.  He probably deserves it.

It just seems surprising that 0870 etc is of so little concern to our fellow citizens.  It seems the vast majority don't mind being ripped off!!!

A message to our Moderators.   What is happening with the suggested email chain letter?

While chain e-mails have the mathmatical potential to reach very large numbers of people, I personally find them deeply annoying and therefore would not inflict them upon people I know. There is, I think, a general suspicion that any e-mail that asks you to utilise your contact list is somehow gaining access to that contact list, or at least using it to spread something unpleasant. Besides which doesn't such a tactic imply that it is a minority issue? The non-geographic number rip off affects every consumer in the country to some degree and is definitely not a minority issue. perhaps our job is, however,  to bring this to the attention of the wider public. So I was thinkin', could someone who knows the actual details of the charges, the proposed ofcom action etc. draft a letter for us all to send to as many newspapers as we can find e-mail and postal addresses for. Perhaps a sackful of hard copy letters timed to arrive the same day will make some of the financial editors take som notice?

loddon wrote on Mar 5^th, 2007 at 4:34pm:

What is happening with the suggested email chain letter?

Only suggested by you if you will recall and not actually endorsed as a tactic by any other regular forum members.

I think you are wrong NGN -- I didn't suggest it.   I placed a copy of what I had already sent to my contacts, for information, to the Forum.   Dave, Global Moderator, then said :-
 
"Thanks loddon for the suggested email. I think it will be a good idea if we can get an email together so Daniel can send it to all members of the forums."

I don't know who Daniel is, being new around here, and I was wondering what had happened with Dave's suggestion.

So what is happening?

The petition is about to hit 30,000 which is great, but the rate has dropped to about 40 per hour.

Any ideas as to how we can attract more signatures?

Also how are we going to exploit this. It is one of the most popular petition (past and present) and also the top communications petition. It would be very sad if it was just given the brush off, which is what I fear. Eg changes happening soon which will cover the concerns of the petitioners - Oh no they won't!!!

An MP (of the female variety!) brought up the 'Posthumous K for Bob Paisley' at PMQ's today - no wonder they passed our 0870 petition.
Anyone know any MP that would bring it up for us?
Unfortunately my MP (only Tory in Scotland?) even refuses to sign the 'Patientline EDM', though I've brought it up in our local paper and challenged him to give reasons why he wont.

I would like to contact my Mp and local papers about this issue. Could someone please post the details about the charges applicable to the various 08** numbers. Apart from the 'excluded from inclusive packages' thing, I only know that companies often take a slice of the call costs. I would like to be more specific if I can, as I think it would improve the credibility of my letter.

Why don't we raise this with all MPs, and find out how many consider this an issue which they would deem worthy of some of their precious time?   The petition is directed to the Prime Minister.  If enough MPs are supporting the Petition then there just may be a chance of something being done.  

But what is to be done?   What action can we realistically ask our MPs and the PM to take?   Legislation would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut and, I would think, would have little chance in competition with all the other issues waiting for legislation.    What is the appropriate democratic course of action to be applied here?  

Could OFCOM somehow be directed to implement a ruling that Geo numbers must be made available?  I think we should try and identify/agree an objective here which we can then put to our MPs which might stand a chance of being taken seriously.   What do others think?  

I am of the opinion that the most powerful weapon consumers have is non-use. For instance how quickly would electronic equipment, cds, label jeans etc. come down if people just stopped buying them? I know we can't just abstain from using NGNs unilaterally so the trick is to make as many people aware and angry about them as possible. This means publicity. So by writing to nespapers, MPs, TV stations and so on spreads the word and hopefully more people will locate and post alternative geographical numbers, more people will use the site, and the profitability of the NGNs will decline. The petition may not, ultimately be any use in itself, but will be a significant measure of the resistance to the NGNs. But this requires the petition to be impressively supported which brings us back to publicity. I would urge everyone to write, e-mail and generally spread the word anyway they can

I agree with everything Scatman says.

If the population at large became aware the problem would be resolved by the publicity and the impact from the public will cause the abandonment of these numbers.

Remember most of the public still think 0845 = local rate!

The signature rate is really slowing down now so we need more publicity. HOW?

It was on track to hit 50,000, but I'm not sure now, but it could easily do so if more people were aware.

However hitting that number in itself is of no use. As Scatman says it is a means to and end. This has to be picked up by the papers and broadcasters.

Even at the 30K level this is one of the most popular petitions and bearing in mind there was no formal organisation (we just found it there) this is very impressive.

I agree publicity is the key.   I believe this links to the thread about ITV & Premium rate competition lines etc but SOMETHING made people aware of that and then someone with influence became angry about it, OFCOM was kicked etc.   I found it staggering that there was all that fuss about the trivia of Big Brother, that people actually bother not just to watch that nonsense but to complain about it, then OFCOM was jolted into seeming to do something - what a waste of their time!   Does anyone have any contact with the media & could point out that it is all very well worrying about the cost of competition lines etc where to call or not is purely a matter of choice while the scandal of the use of covert premium rate numbers by companies and organisations where the caller has no choice is ignored?  I still believe the petition is important even if it ultimately doesn't achieve its objective because, and particularly if we can get publicity, perpetrators of NGNs will no longer be able to claim that people don't object.

I want to write to my local papers and MPs to (favourably) publicise this site and the petition. According to site rules, information on this site is copywrite protected and permission must be sought to use any of the content. I have sought permission by email, but so far have not received it. I am aware of the notice that all emails might not receive a reply. I am hoping that mine will, especially as I have the dubious pleasure of knowing three MPs personally .
Perhaps the copyright  aspect is also putting off other people from taking a similar action to what I propose.

The signatures have now dropped to a trickle (about 15 per hour) as most people who would have been aware have already signed.

How can we boost it. Will Martin Lewis re advertise it if we ask? Who has good contacts with him?

Any other ideas?

I asked Martin Lewis last week to continue to promote the Petition on his website and in his Newsletter until 4th April.  I will send a reminder again if you wish.

As to how to get the numbers up, I feel it could well be done by sending a chain letter as suggested by Dave a week ago.   I know some people on here don't like chain letters but I would suggest that the wording is key to not causing offense and getting support.   I wrote a personal letter to everyone on my own contact list and asked them to sign the Petition and to pass the message on to at least 10 people.  I know that some reacted positively to it and I am grateful to them.  

The example was set for us by the Road Pricing Petition.   I received a chain letter about that one and I had not known about that Petition previously.   They obviously sent it to Car Club Members and the like and it was effective -- 1.8 million votes!   After they got to half a million the media began to notice and report on it and then .....

I feel that contacting MPs, laudable though it is, will not in itself get us much publicity.    MPs might however be influential in pressurising OFCOM, ICSTIS etc. ... if we we identify what action we want them to take and set a clear and achievable objective.

I have written to Martin Lewis again.  I am away now for the weekend.

Keith wrote on Mar 9^th, 2007 at 10:41am:

The signatures have now dropped to a trickle (about 15 per hour) as most people who would have been aware have already signed. How can we boost it. Will Martin Lewis re advertise it if we ask? Who has good contacts with him? Any other ideas?

The May 2006 'sticky' thread on the Home Phones forum on MSE, which links to the MSE SayNoto0870 article and the June 2004 thread on the same subject, still gets regular posts (the latest - urging readers to sign the e-petition - was yesterday morning).

There is a popular saying that any publicity is good publicity, so anything we can do to bring this issiue to the public is a good thing. However, I don't think writing, or e-mailing for that matter, is much use in itself as people who are already annoyed about NGNs, and people who visit the site are quite likeley to have signed the petition already. What we need is to bring this to the attention of people who are using these numbers and are unaware of the rip-off, or who are aware and don't know there is an active protest movement. These are the the people outside this forum. These are the 'big numbers' we are missing out on. This means advising them in some detail about the extent and breadth of the rip off. I therefore repeat my request that someone on the forum provides some details about the exact costs of the various 08 combinations. Alternatively, if someone can point me at a website or other up-to-date research source, I will do the legwork myself. My aim is to produce a concise '08 for dummies' type peice that can be cut and pasted on to letters, e-mails and even leaflets ( I am considering a leaflet drop in my local paper) How many contributors are there to this forum? perhaps if we all donated just one pound, we could afford a newspaper ad? Now that would be a publicity blast!

scatman wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 10:14am:

… I therefore repeat my request that someone on the forum provides some details about the exact costs of the various 08 combinations. Alternatively, if someone can point me at a website or other up-to-date research source, I will do the legwork myself. My aim is to produce a concise '08 for dummies' type peice that can be cut and pasted on to letters, e-mails and even leaflets ( I am considering a leaflet drop in my local paper) …

What information on costs are you after?  :-/

Are you talking about statistics of the amount we all pay extra?

Well for instance I know that 0870 is [usually?] a premium rate but I don't know what and how much is generally raked off by the line user. I know that 0845 used to be a local rate but don't know if it still is. I am not trying to be smart and am more than willing to hunt down the info myself, I just didn't want to if somebody else in he forum already had. I just want to be able to state the case with facts rather than just anger. Thanks

scatman wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 8:14pm:

Well for instance I know that 0870 is [usually?] a premium rate but I don't know what and how much is generally raked off by the line user. I know that 0845 used to be a local rate but don't know if it still is. I am not trying to be smart and am more than willing to hunt down the info myself, I just didn't want to if somebody else in he forum already had. I just want to be able to state the case with facts rather than just anger. Thanks

Here's what us users are charged - the BT Specialised Numbers Price List (March 2007).

So at the risk of a repost, has anybody seen this?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/

Basically, what the saynoto0870 campbagn was, in essence, trying to achieve - but hell, can't hurt to sign this as well!

christopher wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:15am:

So at the risk of a repost, has anybody seen this? http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/cheapercalls/ Basically, what the saynoto0870 campbagn was, in essence, trying to achieve - but hell, can't hurt to sign this as well!

Welcome Christopher.

Unfortunately, Rahul Thakrar has transposed 'geographical' and 'non-geographical' in his petition wording - which makes it a nonsense really.

scatman wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 8:14pm:

Well for instance I know that 0870 is [usually?] a premium rate but I don't know what and how much is generally raked off by the line user. I know that 0845 used to be a local rate but don't know if it still is. ...

Have you looked at my Geographical (01/02) Vs 0845/0870 price comparison?

How much does the receiving party get? Have a look at some 0870 providers' websites. There are loads.

Thanks for that Dave, your price comparison has confirmed what I have found through my own, admittedly brief, look through the BT price list which is that it is almost impossible to explain in less than a thousand words how much people are losing out. I therefore abandon my plan to write '0870 for dummies' However, it has clarified for me that the real damage of these NGNs is that they are excluded from the ever increasing inclusive plans. It matters not one jot if my BT plan offers me daytime calls at 3p per minute if everybody I have to make long phone calls to is 08 something. Perhaps this is a more worthy focus for our protest (and perhaps I have just caught up with the rest of you!) I need to re-group :-/

scatman wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:09pm:

Thanks for that Dave, your price comparison has confirmed what I have found through my own, admittedly brief, look through the BT price list which is that it is almost impossible to explain in less than a thousand words how much people are losing out. I therefore abandon my plan to write '0870 for dummies' […]

Have you looked at my other threads stickied at the top of the Chat section? Specifically those on Useful Information & Say no to 0870! Hot Topics.

Hello everybody peeps! (that shows my age!) I have just sent this letter to ofcom, and will be sending similar including an encouragement to sign the petition to my MP, and as many newspapers as I can think of. I still think weight of numbers is our greatest weapon, so any one who wishes to use this text for thier own letters and e-mails etc is welcome to do so. I would urge all contributors to invest the relatively small amount of time and money in flooding all these people with such communications as it is only by mass protest that we stand a chance, I think. Good luck.
"Ofcom
Riverside House
2a Southwark Bridge Road
London
SE1 9HA
Dear Sirs

It has just come to my attention, the extent to which the commercial use of 0845, 0870 and 0871 is disadvantageous to the customer and the way in which the costs are hidden from us.

According to the March 07 BT specialised number price list, 0845 is charged at the ‘local’ rate of 3.95 pence per minute (daytime) and 0870 at the ‘national’ rate of 7.91 pence per minute (daytime) while 0871 numbers are charged at anything between 5 and 10 pence per minute. This in itself is not unfair (apart from the suspicion raised by the contorted way in which these prices are listed)

Nor is it unfair that the telecoms industry is constantly trying to encourage us to use inclusive packages. This is to their advantage because it fixes the income from a customer regardless of the actual calls they make and therefore makes their accounting more efficient and economic.

What makes the process unfair is the fact that 08 combinations are excluded from inclusive schemes. So for instance, a weekday call to my bank’s helpline on a geographic national number would cost 3 pence per minute on my BT option one, on a 0870 number the cost would be 7.91 pence per minute. On a 0871 number, it would probably (67% of the 0871 numbers listed in the above BT price list) be 8, 9 or 10 pence per minute. This differential becomes astonishing when you compare a geographic weekend rate of 1.5 pence per minute to the ‘anytime’ rate carried by 0871. This is, of course, compounded by the inevitable queuing system that guarantees a minimum call time even if you get through straight away.

Furthermore, for the line holders to be benefiting from the cost of the call to a number that they are compelling you to use by not issuing geographic numbers may quite fairly be compared to building a shop so far off a bus route that you have to drive, and then charging you for parking. That is, giving you no option but to spend additional money over and above the cost of the goods or service in order to continue using it.  

It is quite unsupportable that this practice be allowed to continue as no benefit to the consumer exists and a significant, quantifiable detriment to the customer can be demonstrated. Since you exist to ensure that consumer interests are served, I would urge you to take immediate action in order to either make it illegal for commercial enterprise to use these numbers without offering a geographical alternative, or for telecoms providers not to include them in inclusive packages."

scatman wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 10:04am:

According to the March 07 BT specialised number price list, 0845 is charged at the ‘local’ rate of 3.95 pence per minute (daytime) and 0870 at the ‘national’ rate of 7.91 pence per minute (daytime) while 0871 numbers are charged at anything between 5 and 10 pence per minute. ...

The rates you quote are so-called 'non-discounted' ones and apply on those on Light User Scheme and other minority packages. You say you are on "BT option one" so I take that to mean you are on BT Together Option 1, like many others. You need to look further down the document to page 31 for BT Together rates.

On that package 0870 daytime=7p/min evening=3.5p/min weekend=1.5p/min and 0845 daytime=3p/min, evening=1p/min and weekend=0.5p/min. All attract a 3p "call set up fee".

Clear as mud.  ::)

MSE Martin has mentioned the petition again in his weekly email this week - see here.

At time of writing this post, the petition has 35,584 signatures.  The 5th highest petition (The Hunting Act) has 36,227 which means we need another 644 to become 5th place.

Remember the deadline is 4th April.

It's good to see the number of signatures climing nicely again. It is now in 5th place. With just short of 2 weeks left to go, is it worth sending out the email we mentioned to all registered users of this site?

Dave,
I have always thought that email is probably the best way to get the numbers up ( as demonstrated by the anti Road Pricing lobby who got to 1.8 million votes by using email).    So, yes, please get one out.  The problem now though is that little time is left for our Petition.   I did ask some time ago if it would be possible to ask the Petition sponsor to extend the deadline towards the end of this year, but had no response.

Incidentally, the current largest Petition, to scrap  Inheritance Tax, has over 120,000 votes and look what happened in the Budget!  Increase to £350,000 from £285,000 over the next 2 years.  Was Gordon influenced by the Petition?

Yes go for it!

How are we going to use this petition? How do we get the media to notice it? How do we get Ofcom to acknowledge it?

It looks like the petition creeping nearer to the top has prompted some press action - see THIS .

There is a separate petition relating to GP use of NGNs at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/NGN-use-by-GPs/

<<
General Medical Practioners are being persuaded, by telephone equipment suppliers and service providers, to change from the use of local 01 and 02 geographic numbers to a non-geographic 0844 number to book an appointment and 0870 numbers for calls from overseas countries. The patient has to remember a 11 or 12 digit number as againt a 5 or 6 digit local call number. These numbers are also revenue sharing numbers and generate an income for the doctors surgery and/or the telephone service provider and encourage the queing of calls to generate extra revenue. It is not possible to make a 0870 call from most overseas counties and therefore you or a hospital will not beable to contact your doctor for information. After hours doctor services are also using the 0870 number for incoming calls This practice penalises the poor, elderly and other persons who do not have access to a home phone and must rely on a public phone box and is additional un-neccessary burden and cost on illness.
>>

So far, twenty signatures.

idb wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 12:14am:

There is a separate petition relating to GP use of NGNs at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/NGN-use-by-GPs/

Deadline for this is 15 February 2008.

A search of the PM's petitions website for '0870' reveals others:


Quote:

Stop govenment offices like the DVLA using 0870 premium rate numbers to raise money We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Stop govenment offices like the DVLA using 0870 premium rate numbers to raise money. The DVLA main enquiry telephone number is a 0870 number and so we are being charged to hang on while they tell us all about their services and leave us hanging on for a real person to answer. Yet more stealth tax! Deadline 21 March 2008

Quote:

Ban the use of 0870 phone numbers We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Ban the use of 0870 phone numbers. I want companies banned from using rip-off 0870 phone numbers, especially the companies that keep you on hold for several minutes & even hours listening to music & never getting thru to an operator at the cost of up to 10 pence per minute Deadline: 15 February 2008

Now the petition is closed and we have done so well what next? Surely something needs to go to OFCOM, the press, MPs..... to highlight the success

Keith wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 4:48pm:

Now the petition is closed and we have done so well what next? Surely something needs to go to OFCOM, the press, MPs..... to highlight the success

I've mentioned this before and the fact is that due to the way in which the petition was written (ie force all companies/gov departments to release their underlying geographical number, etC) then there is no chance that anything would actually be done or taken seriously (IMHO).

I personally would have liked to have waited for the petition to close whilst it still unknown/unheard of and did a proper one which was more likely to achieve something.

However, many forum members wanted this petition to be signed which whilst it may have grabbed the attention of some newspaper articles, nothing serious would have been taken by the government.

The problem is now it's too late I believe because very few are likely to go through all the trouble of signing another e-petition having signed this one.

I have nothing against the owner who created the e-petition as it's what we would all like however the fact remains that NOTHING would ever have been done or taken seriously.

I understood that the PM's office or the PM himself send an email reply to all people who signed a petition.  This gives a response to the petition.  I haven't seen anything on the 0870 petition yet.  Has anyone else?
Should we send a reminder to No. 10???

I never received a response from No 10 on the road pricing petition which I signed, suspect it is this government's way of dealing with those who disagree - ignore them!!!   I did receive a response to another earlier petition opposing ID cards but that was the only one and I went through a stage (when "our" one was first publicised) of signing quite a few.   I would be very interested to know what is happening.

Barbara wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 7:39pm:

I never received a response from No 10 on the road pricing petition which I signed..

I received a response back in February.

Did the PM actually say we would get a reply concerning the 08 e-petition?

I also  received a reply from the PM just after the Road Pricing Petition closed ---- but I have nothing on 'our' anti 0870 Petition.  I really want to see what the PM has to say about this, so I have sent a request for a response to No 10 --- now waiting with baited breath.

The PM has responded to a Petition which has been running for just 24 hours and is not due to close until 12 June 2007 --- see the Petition asking for "the Prime Minister to name and sack the person responsible for declaring that members of the armed services can sell their stories to the media".  3359 votes.  And this has already been reported in the media!!!  He has also respondedto the Petitions about photography in public places and funding the Red Arrows and they are still running.

Obviously the PM will respond to a Petition if it is sufficiently contentious or political as soon as he wishes.  It gives some indication of how significant he thinks the anti 0870 Petition is -- no response yet.   Can I suggest that a few more people write to him asking for a response -- we don't want it to be just ignored do we??

I have now looked at the full list of closed Petitions and guess what, they all have a Govt response except for ours and a few others.  Even petitions with a mere 100 or so votes!!!!!    Ours has nearly 43000 votes while the next largest with no response has 7944 votes!

Why is ours being ignored?  Obviously a difficult one for the PM/Govt to answer with all the issues which have been aired in this Forum.  This to my mind makes it all the more important that we press for a response.

loddon wrote on Apr 13^th, 2007 at 8:09pm:

I have now looked at the full list of closed Petitions and guess what, they all have a Govt response except for ours and a few others.  Even petitions with a mere 100 or so votes!!!!!    Ours has nearly 43000 votes while the next largest with no response has 7944 votes!

The list of closed petitions can be found here. They are sorted in orders of most signatures to least and show whether the Government has given a response. The Saynoto0870 petition is in third place.

Could the message on our home page be changed to support the Petition against 0844 numbers at Medical Surgeries. ( now that the main Petition has closed -- although we are still waiting for a Government response).  

This anti 0844 Petition only has 66 signatures so far and needs more publicity.

loddon wrote on Apr 16^th, 2007 at 10:22pm:

Could the message on our home page be changed to support the Petition against 0844 numbers at Medical Surgeries. ( now that the main Petition has closed -- although we are still waiting for a Government response).   This anti 0844 Petition only has 66 signatures so far and needs more publicity.

You mean http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/NGN-use-by-GPs/

Yes Heinz,  taht is the Petition I am referring to.

The Government Response to our Petition has now been published:-


Quote:

Thank you for the epetition about the use of non-geographic telephone numbers. The first few digits of a UK telephone number are already intended to give a broad indication to the caller of the type of service and/or cost of the call. In general those numbers beginning 0870/0871 are the most expensive, 0844/45 in the middle range and 0800 Freephone free of charge. There are various reasons why a company may choose to use an 08 number. It is for a company's own commercial judgement to decide what type of telephone number to use. The independent Office of Communications (Ofcom) which is responsible for numbering policy, cannot dictate to companies what type of numbers they must use. Neither can they demand that they link their non-geographic numbers to a local number. But Ofcom knows that consumers have concerns that 084 and 087 numbers are increasingly being used by businesses as a higher priced alternative to ordinary geographic telephone numbers. Ofcom undertook a major review of its policy on these numbers and last April published a statement setting out a package of consumer-friendly measures. These include introducing a new range of 03 non-geographic numbers which will cost no more than geographic rates and restoring the link between the 0870 prefix and the actual rates charged by telecoms companies for national rate calls. These new measures are being introduced over time so, for instance, the introduction of 03 numbers has already started and the alignment of 0870 costs with national rates will come into effect in January 2008. These measures should result in considerably lower prices for consumers. The website address for the Ofcom document is: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement Ofcom is also extending the regulation of Premium Rate Numbers to 0871 numbers because of concerns that companies are increasingly using them and charging the caller much higher rates for services such as weather forecasts and sports' information. Consultation will take place this year but the main aim will be to ensure customers know how much it will cost them to call 0871 numbers. You might also be re-assured to know that the Government advised two years ago all its departments and agencies against their own use of 0870 numbers. By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers.

~ Edited by Dave: Government response put in quote box

An utter disgrace and clearly written for them by one of the cynical and highly overpaid chief penpushers at Ofcom given the utter garbage and stock Ofcom line contained in the response.

Note that Tony Blair has not chosen to put his signature to this one like he did with the 10 Downing Street Response to the Save the Red Arrows petition.

You may be interested in reading the thread I have just started about the money spent by 10 Downing Street in making a video posted on the YouTube website to respond to the Make Jeremy Clarkson PM petition compared to their responses to our various anti 084/7 petitions.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1219172169

loddon wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 5:57pm:

The Government Response to our Petition has now been published:- Quote: Thank you for the epetition about the use of non-geographic telephone numbers.... ...By no means all Departments did use 0870 numbers, but where they did, they should now have been replaced with either geographical, 0845 (local rate) or 0800 numbers. ~ Edited by Dave: Government response put in quote box

ye gods - 0845 is NOT local rate.
Helloo - is there anybody awake in Riverside House?
Is there anybody left who understands numbering?

Tanllan wrote on Aug 19^th, 2008 at 8:30pm:

Is there anybody left who understands numbering?

It appears that you are perhaps the only person left in the UK with the relevant telecoms experience, principles and sense of public duty required in order to successfully shake up Ofcom Tanllan.

Have you put in your application yet to become David Currie's successor as Ofcom Chairman as I understand they are currently in the process of advertising the vacancy.

See www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a103907/currie-to-quit-as-ofcom-chairman.html