BBC Radio Gloucestershire are intending to broadcast a story/debate about doctors using 0844 numbers tomorrow morning, Tuesday 11th September just after 7 am.   A doctor is apparently lined up to put his side of the case and the BBC will no doubt be seeking views from other people.   The link to Radio Gloucestershire is : ----

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/  

On the righthand side of the home page is a button to use to listen to the broadcast live over the web.   No doubt those living in the area will be able to tune in on their receivers.

Of course, there is never any guarantee that such a feature will actually be broadcast due to editorial considerations, but we believe there is a very good chance that this item will make it on to the airwaves.

Good listening.

loddon wrote on Sep 10^th, 2007 at 8:12pm:

BBC Radio Gloucestershire are intending to broadcast a story/debate about doctors using 0844 numbers tomorrow morning, Tuesday 11th September just after 7 am.   A doctor is apparently lined up to put his side of the case and the BBC will no doubt be seeking views from other people.   The link to Radio Gloucestershire is : ----     http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/       On the righthand side of the home page is a button to use to listen to the broadcast live over the web.   No doubt those living in the area will be able to tune in on their receivers.

For those in or near Gloucestershire, frequencies are:

95.0 Mhz FM - 95.8 Mhz FM - 104.7 Mhz FM - 1413 Khz AM

BBC Radio Gloucestershire's listener phone-in number is 01452 30 75 75

It looks like it'll be on Mark Cummings' programme and, if his e-mail address follows the standard BBC format, it'll be mark.cummings@bbc.co.uk


Quote:

06:00   Mark Cummings Bright and fun start to the day, with the best travel service in the county every 15 minutes. Have your say on 01452 307575 [standard rate].

A few extracts:

"Members of the public on standard BT contracts don't pay extra for calling DRs' 0844 numbers."

They appeared to have overlooked that, between 6am and 6pm on a weekday, a standard call costs 6p connection plus 3¼p per minute but calling these DRs' 0844 numbers costs 6p connection plus 5p per minute - that's 54% more per minute.

"You can get contracts which include 0844 numbers as inclusive minutes on a mobile phone contract."

Apart from that being unlikely, how many of those who have only a mobile have a contract  mobile?

"Doctors have to use these systems because, otherwise, they can't afford a £10,000 telephone system."

Who are they kidding?  WE already pay them £100,000 per year EACH for goodness sake!

The Doctor who attempted (but largely failed) to justify his use of an 0844 number said he welcomed feedback from the public and gave his e-mail address in order that they can send it.

It is mike@gloslmc.com

You can listen again to this mornings discussion about doctors and 0844 on BBC Radio Gloucester NOW.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/

Click on "Listen Again" then scroll down to "Mark Cummings at Breakfast".

The broadcast starts at 6 am, but you can pause and forward 5 mins or 15 mins.  The main discussion started after the 7am news and continued through to 9 am.   It was the No.1 story on their news at 8.30 and 9am!!!

Some extracts from the broadcast : ---

The early news bulletins reported that 13 doctors practices in Gloucestershire are now "earning money from higher rate phone charges".

Dr Phillip Fielding, 0844 4778962, is the Deputy Chairman of Glos. Local Medical Committee.   He was interviewed first.   He tried to defend the actions of doctors going 0844.

It was reported that the "Strategic Health Authority" advised that patients should not be exploited, 03 numbers should be considered.

David Hickson on the phone said he found the prospect terrifyoing and is the thin edge of the wedge.  It breaches the principle of the NHS being "free at the point of delivery".  

A lady said it now cost her £1 per minute on her PAYG mobile to call her doctor!!   (Is this a new point?   We've always said it costs up to 40p on a mobile -- but she says £1 per min on PAYG!!!

A Mr Alistair (Campbell) from Market Harborough came on the phone and said that the phone cost was minimal and that "0844 numbers could be included in peoples phone packages"!!!   He said "£1 per min would be an absolute scandal if that were the case."   (Well Alistair --- it IS the case)

Mike Cumming said "Is funding the NHS by your phone calls --- is this really acceptable?  Is it a stealth thing and the start of something bigger (i.e. more charges being introduced)"

Mike Forster, Lay Secretary of the Glos. Local Medical Committee, said it cost up to £10,000 and £400 per month for a doctors phone system.    He said, and this quote was repeated in later news bulletins, " doctors are not allowed to recover more than the cost of the system from these phone charges".

An elderly lady said she was unhappy about all this and had taken her phone bill into her doctor to show these calls were charged at a PREMIUM rate.   The doctors now keep you on hold and it costs more.   Her husband now goes into the practice to make an appointment instead of phoning!!

Mike Forster came on again and said he would welcome and appreciate comments from the public and his email address is  mike@gloslmc.com  (01452 310706).

Heinz wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 8:18am:

A few extracts: "Members of the public on standard BT contracts don't pay extra for calling DRs' 0844 numbers." They appeared to have overlooked that, between 6am and 6pm on a weekday, a standard call costs 6p connection plus 3¼p per minute but calling these DRs' 0844 numbers costs 6p connection plus 5p per minute - that's 54% more per minute. "You can get contracts which include 0844 numbers as inclusive minutes on a mobile phone contract." Apart from that being unlikely, how many of those who have only a mobile have a contract  mobile? "Doctors have to use these systems because, otherwise, they can't afford a £10,000 telephone system." Who are they kidding?  They're on £100,000 per year EACH for goodness sake! The Doctor who attempted (but largely failed) to justify his use of an 0844 number said he welcomed feedback from the public and gave his e-mail address in order that they can send it. It is mike@gloslmc.com

He is misleading about tariffs - the same price off-peak for 0844, whereas ordinary landlines are cheap for an hour

Or, some people have inclusive  packages for ordinary numbers, which don't include these

About from mobile contracts - no longer available, and people on O2 who do have them included will find themselves charged 20 pence a minute from later this month

PBX costs - there are cheaper phone systems; perhaps this bloke should do some actual research, instead of buying off the first propagandists to walk through the door - maybe like £400 per PBX and between £60 and £200 per phone, and set-up costs, so a couple of thousand should be plenty for many places. Any enterprise of a similar size also has to fund its phone system; why are doctors entitled to act like this as parasites on their patients?

I have written to Mike Forster of Gloucester Local Medical Committee :---

To :---
Mike Forster,

I listened to your contribution to the discussion on BBC Radio Glos this morning and am taking up your invitation to feedback to you.

The most important point is that doctors should not breach the fundamental principle that the "NHS is free at the point of delivery".    You say that doctors are getting 1.2p per minute from these 0844 calls --- this amounts to charging patients a fee.  It is wrong.   You heard people say it is unfair.  Others have said it is unethical and unprincipled.    Inappropriate for the medical profession.

Be in no doubt, the public are mostly furious about this.  It is bound to be very damaging to the overall doctor/patient relationship.   It brings into question the morals and ethics of all doctors and this is causing great resentment against doctors.   It is a problem which will not go away until something is done to correct the unfairness.   For example, those doctors with 0844 already should be compelled to make their geographic number available so that, at least, patients can have a choice.   Those who couldn't care less or who think the cost is insignificant can continue to call 0844 --- but those to whom it matters should be able to call a geo number if they wish.

27 MPs signed an Early Day Motion (1989) in July 2007 "condemning" doctors use of 0844.   Other MPs like Martin Horwood are also concerned and raising questions about this.  There is a Petition on the Prime Ministers website against doctors using 0844 which has gained 7000 votes in just the last month.  More than 40 doctors have already signed this Petition so they at least are against.   This is a very important matter and should not be dismissed lightly.

There is a problem now, that patients in 13 of your practices are being compelled to pay extra to contact their doctors whilst those at the remaining 70 practices are paying no premium.     We know that some doctors do see this as a matter of principle and will never go to 0844 or 0845 so there is now an inconsistency of treatment between patients.   This is an unfairness which needs to be removed as quickly as possible.

You probably heard the elderly lady on todays programme say she was "unhappy about all this and had taken her phone bill into her doctor to show these calls were charged at a PREMIUM rate.   The doctors now keep you on hold and it costs more.   Her doctor calls used to be free within her package of inclusive geographic calls.   Her husband now goes into the practice to make an appointment instead of phoning".   Isn't this an absolutely deplorable situation??

I urge you and your Local Medical Committee to consider this whole subject as a matter of priority and make sure that steps are taken to rectify a totally unsatifactory situation.   I believe it will ultimately be to the benefit of all the doctors as well as their patients.

Yours most sincerely,

I am listening to the broadcast now, and having listened up to 8am there is an overwhelming emphasis on the "local rate" rubbish. Telephone pricing is a matter of fact and not one of opinion or perception.

What tariff is this person on to be charged £1/min from a mobile? Whilst I am not saying that this is incorrect, I would like to check the facts. It is the facts we must discuss and not react on what we think is the case.

What rate was the lady who had "premium rate" shown on her bill charged? Was this 5p/min "premium rate", whereas another telco might provide a 5p/min not identified as "premium rate". Perhaps this just highlights how people don't seem to grasp that charges are defined mathematically and not by some 'brand' name.

So far, I have yet to hear anything about call queueing. If the higher charges are really "negligible", in Mark Cummings' words, then what about when you wait in a queue?

For those who are on chargeable packages can make a geographical call for 5p for any length with 18185. This is a free market and competition in the telephone calling market and 0844 numbers drive a coach and horses straight through this process.

Guess what!!!

BBC Radio Bristol are running an item on doctors and their telephone numbers tomorrow, Wed starting just after the 7am news and again after the 8am news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/local_radio/       Ckick on Listen Live.

They told me it is being run as their main local story tomorrow.

Good listening.

The BBC Radio Bristol studio phone-in number is 0117 973 2211.   Also 0117 9238877 may get you through.

Broadcast on 95.5, 94.9 FM and 1548 AM & DAB Radio.

And what is useless conniving Ofcom doing to educate the public that 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 numbers are not local and national rate or included in inclusive call packages but that the new 03 numbers they have launched are.  Is Ofcom going to take full page national newspaper ads about the joys of 03 numbers and why the NHS, DVLA, Inland Revenue, Police and all the other government scammers should be moving across to them.

Surely after Ofcom took full page newspaper ads about why de-regulating control of BT prices was such a good thing last summer we should now be expecting Ofcom to also give equivalent publicity to this new number range? ;) ::) >:( :'(

As to Alistair Campbell I take it he didn't say he is NEG's PR director.  What a disgrace. :o >:( >:( >:( [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

loddon wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 9:00pm:

Guess what!!! BBC Radio Bristol are running an item on doctors and their telephone numbers tomorrow, Wed starting just after the 7am news and again after the 8am news. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/local_radio/       Ckick on Listen Live. They told me it is being run as their main local story tomorrow. Good listening.

My dedication to the cause does not stretch to 7am.  Perhaps I might make an exception for a phone in on the subject on BBC Radio4

Good luck with it to the rest of you early risers.

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 9:08pm:

[ My dedication to the cause does not stretch to 7am.  Perhaps I might make an exception for a phone in on the subject on BBC Radio4 Good luck with it to the rest of you early risers.

If you can't make it for the 8am slot you can always click on "Listen Again" and "Breakfast" during lunch or afternoon tea!

loddon wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 9:27pm:

If you can't make it for the 8am slot you can always click on "Listen Again" and "Breakfast" during lunch or afternoon tea!

Yes I realise that but I'm sure i will already know all the arguments in the debate with depressing familiarity.  The only point of listening therefore is to phone in live and get on air and add to debate.  I can't do that with Listen Again.

Has anyone been mentioning the 10 Downing Street Petition if they phone in and get on the program?

Its now in position 23 by size on the 10 Downing Street website with 7532 signatures.  Still needs national newspaper coverage to get in to the top 5 though.

BBC Radio Bristol must have an awful lot more listeners than BBC Radio Gloucester.

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 9:33pm:

loddon wrote on Sep 11th, 2007 at 9:27pm: If you can't make it for the 8am slot you can always click on "Listen Again" and "Breakfast" during lunch or afternoon tea! Yes I realise that but I'm sure i will already know all the arguments in the debate with depressing familiarity.  The only point of listening therefore is to phone in live and get on air and add to debate.  I can't do that with Listen Again. Has anyone been mentioning the 10 Downing Street Petition if they phone in and get on the program? Its now in position 23 by size on the 10 Downing Street website with 7532 signatures.  Still needs national newspaper coverage to get in to the top 5 though. BBC Radio Bristol must have an awful lot more listeners than BBC Radio Gloucester.

As always, NGM, you make some very good points.   The interesting thing about this mornings broadcast was that we had two doctors representatives trying to defend their decisions and struggling against some fairly simple questions.   They knew they had a hard to defend position.   The local MP, Martin Horwood, very strongly made the point about 0844 breaching the principle of NHS being free at the point of delivery and so did the host to the show.   We are unlikely to win the whole argument in one go.   This is an ongoing campaign.  The point is that we are making some doctors, at least, feel very uncomfortable about this and medical organisations are now talking about it.   In these circumstances I think many doctors will think very carefully about choosing 0844 and revenue sharing.   Hopefully most will soon be put off the whole idea.   This is the first stage.   Remember, Radio Glos made doctors and 0844 their No.1 story on the 9am news ahead of the McCanns story!!!   They must have had a lot of people phoning in.   This is why Bristol are doing it tomorrow, they want a nice bit of controversy as well.

With continued publicity and agitation by concerned MPs, and we probably have a surprisingly large number now  (don't want to say numbers just yet: you never know who might be reading this), the whole question is going to be escalated.  

Why not set your alarm and throw your weight into this, just for one day, you might even enjoy it.   I think you could really stir things up.    It is only time before the Nationals pick this up again.   I hope you will be able to rise early next week when it is on Breakfast TV.

I mention the Petition whenever I can and I am sure it will start getting into the press soon.

I have received this response from Mike Forster of Gloucester Local Medical Committee : ---

Thank you for your feedback.  I knew that some feelings ran deep, and your extracts confirm it.  Doctors only wish to give their patients the best possible service while also running their medical businesses efficiently and effectively. In doing so each practice has to make its own decisions.  Some will go one way and some another.  Since many organisations (including the police and library) increasingly use 0844 or even 0845 numbers you can understand why some GPs have followed suit.  Indeed, 2 years ago when the NHS was forbidden to use 09 and 087 numbers, practices were encouraged to go to 0844 numbers.  

We are where we are, and must go on from there.  If, in the fullness of time, a political decision is made banning the use of such numbers then that is another matter.  

In the meantime it is good for people's opinions to be aired.  To provide balance to those you mention, you should be aware that independent patient surveys have shown that 69% of patients said they found it frustrating trying to get hold of their GP on a standard local number; this number dropped to only 18% when an 0844 number was introduced.  

I assure you, however, that this matter is on the committee agenda for this Thursday's monthly meeting.  

Specifically:

·         I will mention your point about alternative geographical numbers.

·         I will raise the matter of the old lady who has left her phone bill with the practice. Neither you nor I know the full circumstances so I am keeping an open mind.  I know that some people speak very loosely about Premium Rate numbers which, as I am sure you know, are only 09 numbers. GPs do not use these.

·         I have raised the question in general terms with the national GP Committee and am awaiting their response.

Once again, thank you for your interest.

Best wishes

Mike
M J D FORSTER
Glos LMC Lay Secretary

I have written back to Mike Forster as follows : ---

To Mike Forster,

I must thank you for your response to my email, I really appeciate it.

I had not intended to write again but you say a few things which I think require further comment or clarification.   Some of my points may also be useful for your meeting on Thursday.

You say "Since many organisations (including the police and library) increasingly use 0844 or even 0845 numbers you can understand why some GPs have followed suit".   I have to say two wrongs do not make a right.   Just because the Police are ripping off the public it is no justification for the doctors to follow suit.   I can tell you that the Police have come under extensive criticism, from public, MPs and Lords, over this and they have been compelled to make geographic phone numbers available as alternatives to their rip-off numbers.   Unfortunately these are not well publicised, but thet are available from most forces.   TV police initially held out but were compelled to reveal their numbers under the Freedom of Information Act.   I hope all doctors do not have to endure FOIA requests in the future.   If they really need to use 0844, providing a geographic alternative for patients who ask, at least, would go some way to remove the criticism that doctors are just money grubbing.

You mentioned that 09 and 0870 were forbidden two years ago.   This was because they are higher cost revenue sharing numbers.   0844/5 are also a higher cost revenue sharing numbers.   If 0870 is wrong in principle then so is 0844.    I think you are incorrect about 0844/5 numbers being encouraged.   Both the DoH and OFCOM have advised that they are to be avoided.   Perhaps they should have given a stronger directive, but DoH wrote to all PCTs last year to say, in effect do not use those numbers.   PCTs and doctors going 0844/5 are contravening those instructions.

I have heard of the "independent survey" that you mention.   I believe this is constantly pushed forward by NEG.   It should be treated with a fair amount of scepticism.   Why not carry out your own survey of peoples opinions of doctors using 0844.   On this mornings broadcast, a small sample admitedly, I think only one person was unconcerned about 0844, a reasonably healthy young person probably, while a dozen or more were critical to a greater or lesser degree.   If you were to look at all the comments from the public after articles in the Times, Daily Mail and other papers you begin to see the strength and depth of feeling against.   By the way, Alistair from Market Harboro, this morning, is, I am told, PR Director for NEG: a fact he did not disclose and he gave an astonishingly incorrect misleading suggestion "that 0844 numbers can be included in your phone package".   He must know this to be untrue, as he works within the industry.

Regarding the elderly lady and her phone bill, I can say from personal experience that 0844 on my bill has been charged at" premium rate g6" -- this is apparently a phone industry term.   0870 for example is "premium rate g7".   It is the phone industry themselves who call these "premium" rate.   Lets not get hung up on semantics.   Ofcom define Premium rate as 09 numbers at 20p per min upwards.   0844/5 are priced at a "premium" to normal  geo numbers.   So the lady is right, by the dictionary definition, 0844 is charged at a premium to normal numbers.   Her evidence also gives the lie to phone queues being  reduced.   They are not, and now they are also expensive --- so her husband walks to the surgery to make appointments!!!   How bad is this?   I also know people who do the same.   People DO NOT LIKE 0844.

One thing which you said this morning --- doctors are "not allowed to recover more than the cost of the system from this revenue sharing scheme".    How exactly does that work?    And if they are only getting £400 per month, how much are NEG making out of this.   I have seen estimates that they are raking in up to £50000 per annum per surgery.   If this is anything like true then doctors are unwittingly assisting in a scandalous exploitation of patients, particularly pensioners and the chronically sick.

You said that a system costs about £10000 capital cost.   This of course could be funded as a normal cap ex. and depreciated through the Revenues rules, so actual cost to surgeries would be minimal and this would be massively more economical from the patients point of view.   You may be interested in a comment sent to me by someone who heard the broadcast this am -- "PBX costs - there are cheaper phone systems; perhaps this bloke should do some actual research, instead of buying off the first propagandists to walk through the door - maybe like £400 per PBX and between £60 and £200 per phone, and set-up costs, so a couple of thousand should be plenty for many places. Any enterprise of a similar size also has to fund its phone system; why are doctors entitled to act like this, as parasites on their patients?"

I would be very interested to see what questions you have raised wth the National GP Committee and to see their response.

Thank you once again for your message.

loddon wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 10:12pm:

With continued publicity and agitation by concerned MPs, and we probably have a surprisingly large number now  (don't want to say numbers just yet: [url]you never know who might be reading this[/url]), the whole question is going to be escalated.

Well I trust that Ms Simons from NEG is still reading this even if she has now been forbidden from posting here now on the basis that it only stirs us up in to yet more activity.  I also imagine the Prince Of Phone Number Darkness himself, Alistair Campbell, may well be reading this.

What I hope is that NEG will realise that the 0844 game is now well and truly up and come up with an 03 based version of their service where doctors will pay extra for the extra value they are obtaining in providing a better service to their customers.  Also if they the doctors are paying for the NTS features I am sure that they will not want there to be any unnecessary dead time when they are paying for callers to queue but are not speaking to them. ;)

I also hope that Ofcom will come up with rules making it illegal to make claims that 0844 numbers are local rate in any circumstances (not just adverts controlled by the ASA) and to make this punishable with large fines for any operators of an NTS service like NEG found to be responsible for such claims being made.  I also hope Ofcom will mandate announcements stating the amount per minute going to the NTS operator and the called party for any 0844 number dialled.


Quote:

Why not set your alarm and throw your weight into this, just for one day, you might even enjoy it.

As things stand I may still be up when the Radio Bristol program starts after being woken up at 3.40am by my noisy neighbour in the flat above. >:( >:( >:(

By the way I notice this has been started as a separate thread which seems unfortunate.

It ought to have been a continuation of the 0844 NEG thread in order to ensure maximum participation on the show.

The item regarding doctors surgeries was on the local news on the hour and there was then a short 5 minute item quoting various local residents and then an item featuring comments on air from David Hickson described as being "a one man national campaign against these numbers".:o :o :o  [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

So David first you are something of a sceptic as to whether it is wrong to charge for calling doctors when the NHS charges for prescriptions or dental treatment but now you have become a national one man campaign against these numbers.  I wonder what happened to the rest of us involved in the multi man campaign against the numbers.  Are you perhaps getting confused with your previous one campaign against Silent Calls? ::) :-/

Is this your usual modus operandi so that you obtain all the credit for such campaigning and do you have special contacs with the BBC that let you get straight on the program.  When I tried calling I had a job getting past the switchboard and then Jules the producer seemed distinctly frosty and disinterested in adding my comments for their 8am slot on the item

NGM, I don't think David is putting himself forward as a one man campaign, rather the opposite.   Unfortunately BBC Radio decided to present him as such, thats reporters for you.   In fact David and I deliberately talk about "we", the campaign, to imply to the media that there are a multitude of us campaigning, as you know. ;)

I had hoped that you would speak on the live prog and I don't know why they haven't grabbed you.   Perhaps you could try again, under a different persona? ;)

I have spoken to the reporter/news reader to point out the fallacy in A. Campbells arguments.   And she fully agreed with me.   I have drawn their attention to the 27 MPs EDM and to the Petition, maybe they will be mentioned later in the prog.

Incidentally, this item was No1 on their 7am news!!! Ahead of the McCann story!!!   Can't get better than that.

Notice, not one , of 15 doctors practices , nor the local PCT are prepared to come on the prog and explain themselves.   Are they worried or what??     Perhaps they were listening to Radio Glos yesterday!

I have just been informed by BBC Radio Bristol that a mistaken reference to a "one-man campaigner" broadcast shortly after 7:00 was an error resulting from research into previous unrelated campaigning activities by this individual. A formal withdrawal, explanation and apology would draw unnecessary and unwarranted attention to the role of one of very many concerned citizens. I have been assured that the mistake will not be repeated and every effort will be made to create the opposite impression.

I was asked by a forum member to withdraw my previous comments complaining about David being represented on David Bristol as a one man campaign against the 0844 doctors numbers.

I don't think I can do that now as other comments from other members have followed but all I can say is that I now understand this to be the result of reporter error on the program not due to any attempt to mislead them by David.

I would therefore like to thank David for his efforts in getting the issue on air and apologise if I may wrongly have suggested that he may have tried to mislead BBC Radio Bristol when it is in fact the program's error.

loddon wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 11:55pm:

I have written back to Mike Forster as follows : --- To Mike Forster, ... I think you are incorrect about 0844/5 numbers being encouraged. ...

Mr Forster is not mistaken.


Quote:

Department of Health, 24th February 2005. GP practices currently using national rate telephone lines will be expected to change these to 'lo-call' numbers, under an arrangement between the Department of Health and the principal supplier.  The department will make funding of around £500 per practice available for them to switch from national rate to lo-call numbers.  The department will be working with PCTs to identify which practices will be entitled to the additional funding.

Dave wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 8:50pm:

What tariff is this person on to be charged £1/min from a mobile? Whilst I am not saying that this is incorrect, I would like to check the facts. It is the facts we must discuss and not react on what we think is the case.

t-mobile website quotes all their pay-as-you-go tariffs have a charge of up to £2.50/min for (non-freephone) 08* numbers.  Freephone numbers are up to 40p/min.  I can quite see an 0844 being £1/min based on that maximum!

See : http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobile-phones/price-plans/pay-as-you-go/
and click on "quick guide to costs" near the bottom for the actual table.

Unfortumately, I can't find a list of specific rates for specific numbers.  They say to call customer services (at up to 25p/min!) on "150" if you want specifics.  On a t-mobile phone I presume!!  Not that I have one, or am I ever likely to, with those rates!

What is the maximum an 08* is charged from a BT landline??

Quote:

Department of Health, 24th February 2005. GP practices currently using national rate telephone lines will be expected to change these to 'lo-call' numbers, under an arrangement between the Department of Health and the principal supplier.  The department will make funding of around £500 per practice available for them to switch from national rate to lo-call numbers.  The department will be working with PCTs to identify which practices will be entitled to the additional funding.

Thank you for finding this quote.   I accept that this took place.

It would appear, as some others have suspected, at that time the DoH were advised erroneously that 0844 numbers were charged at normal rate and were not revenue sharing and would remove the problem of 0870.   This advice was accepted by the DoH and they were mislead in exactly the same way as doctors and others are constantly being mislead since 2005 about the true cost (to callers) and the nature of 0844 numbers.    The fact is, however, that 0844 ARE revenue sharing and can be seen to be significantly more costly than normal geographic numbers and only reduce the 0870 problem but do not eliminate it.    We may speculate where the erroneous advice came from but it would be interesting to know.   Do you know?

And bear in mind that the DoH (and Ofcom) are now positively discouraging the use of 0844/5 numbers.

loddon wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 6:27pm:

We may speculate where the erroneous advice came from but it would be interesting to know.   Do you know?

No. But your speculation no doubt coincides with mine - the "principal supplier".  ;)

If anyone living in the South West could check on the local regional BBC TV evening news programme they may find that the BBC are running an item about doctors using 0844 numbers!    If you do see it could you let us know here what is said on the prog.

BBC Radio Bristol today reported doctors are earning revenue from their patients phone calls by using 0844.   This was the No1 item at 7am, ahead of the McCann story and was discussed, together with other topics throughout the morning.   You can "Listen Again" on the BBC Radio Bristol website : ---

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/local_radio/           Click "Listen Again" and "Breakfast".

There were many comments and discussions with the public and interviews with A. Campbbell, from a system supplier, and Liam Fox MP.   They reported that 15 practices in the area have gone to 0844 but not one doctor or practice manager was prepared to join the prog to discuss the matter.   The local PCT also declined to contribute.

Mr Campbell was asked why doctors are choosing this system and his main reason given was that callers could be put in a queue rather than get the engaged tone.

A lady said that her phone bills are now far more than they were and she objects to the extra cost.   She regards this move by doctors as outrageous.

Liam Fox was extremely concerned about doctors using 0844.   He said it was wrong in principle , raised important issues and was unacceptable.   He said it is a "stealth tax" and a charge on patients that should not be made.   Doctors are funded out of taxation and should not be supplemented by other revenue earning schemes.   It is becoming increasingly difficult for patients to get access to their doctor and referred to the recent massive pay rise gained by doctors.   He will be writing to the local PCT asking what money is being made by doctors out of this.   He said honesty and clarity are needed.

loddon wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 6:27pm:

It would appear, as some others have suspected, at that time the DoH were advised erroneously that 0844 numbers were charged at normal rate and were not revenue sharing and would remove the problem of 0870.   This advice was accepted by the DoH and they were misled in exactly the same way as doctors and others are constantly being misled since 2005 about the true cost (to callers) and the nature of 0844 numbers.    The fact is, however, that 0844 ARE revenue sharing and can be seen to be significantly more costly than normal geographic numbers and only reduce the 0870 problem but do not eliminate it.

5p/minute is 54% per minute more than the 3¼p/minute that a peak rate UK 01/02 call from a BT Together Option 1 landline costs.

And that's ignoring manipulated call queuing ........

irrelevant wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 6:04pm:

What is the maximum an 08* is charged from a BT landline??

Different 0844 numbers are charged at different rates from BT landlines. The maximum BT 'pricing point' for 0844 is 5p/min at all times. AFAIK, Virgin Media and Talk Talk charges are the same as BT for 0844 and 0871. 0871 is like 0844 in that there loads of different rate numbers within the prefix and they can go up to 10p/min at all times.

There was also a report on BBC Points West this evening.

Watch online here.

Homepage for Points West is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pointswest/

BBC TV in the South West ran a story this evening within their Regional programme "Points West".

The story is titled "Doctors' surgeries under fire".   You can see this 5 min clip here : ---

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pointswest/      and click on the title under TOP STORIES --- Watch Now on the right hand side of the screen.   Liam Fox MP again makes an appearance.

Happy viewing.

I think the one point that is so often missed is that for the greater majority of subscribers, a call to 01 or 02 (or 03!) is included in their calling plan and there is no incremental cost. To keep saying that it is 5p compared to 3p per minute, whilst true, really misses the point, and may even sound like 'sour grapes'. After all, '...it's only 2p.....' as I'm sure NEG would be saying.

Well, it's not! For most people, it's probably 5p per MINUTE vs NOTHING

How can that point be reinforced? After all, 0p per minute is a LOT better than 5p a minute! Ten times zero is still....zero!  ;)

Heinz wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 8:17pm:

loddon wrote on Sep 12th, 2007 at 6:27pm: It would appear, as some others have suspected, at that time the DoH were advised erroneously that 0844 numbers were charged at normal rate and were not revenue sharing and would remove the problem of 0870.   This advice was accepted by the DoH and they were misled in exactly the same way as doctors and others are constantly being misled since 2005 about the true cost (to callers) and the nature of 0844 numbers.    The fact is, however, that 0844 ARE revenue sharing and can be seen to be significantly more costly than normal geographic numbers and only reduce the 0870 problem but do not eliminate it. 5p/minute is 54% per minute more than the 3¼p/minute that a peak rate UK 01/02 call from a BT Together Option 1 landline costs. And that's ignoring manipulated call queuing ........

And if you have to use a pay phone,( the cost of which I obtained from somewhere on this forum ), 01/02  2p per minute, 0844 14p per minute, a 600% premium.

Some one will correct me if I got the prices wrong  ::)

Here is the definitive price guide for charges from BT public payphones.

0844 = 43 seconds per 10p, plus 20p connection charge, minumum total charge of 40p.

So a 3 minute call will cost you 70p (actually gives you 3m35s).

Local and national calls you get 600 seconds per 10p (10 mins) plus 20p connection, minumum 40p,.

So a 3 min call will cost you 40p. (actually gives you 20mins)

Oh, and 0871 numbers get you 12 seconds per 10p.  That 3 min call is £1.70.

Dave wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 8:39pm:

0871 is like 0844 in that there loads of different rate numbers within the prefix and they can go up to 10p/min at all times.

Yep, I found the list: here.  How is ANYONE supposed to know the price of a call when the charge band is defined by anyhtng up to EIGHT digits!  (and, e.g, all 0844 094 is defined as one price, except 0844 0945 and 0844 0959 which are two different prices... )

pw4 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 5:20pm:

pw4 wrote on Sep 12th, 2007 at 5:20pm: To Mike Forster, ... I think you are incorrect about 0844/5 numbers being encouraged. ... Mr Forster is not mistaken. Quote: Department of Health, 24th February 2005. GP practices currently using national rate telephone lines will be expected to change these to 'lo-call' numbers, under an arrangement between the Department of Health and the principal supplier.  The department will make funding of around £500 per practice available for them to switch from national rate to lo-call numbers.  The department will be working with PCTs to identify which practices will be entitled to the additional funding.

pw4, as I mentioned before and as your quote from 24/02/05 says, GP practices then using 0870 were required to change their number to something else which was acceptable, but other doctors were not "encouraged" to go to 0844.   What was actually said at the time was : ---
"Health Minister John Hutton announced a ban on the use of national and premium rate telephone numbers (‘087’ and ‘09’) by the NHS in February 2005.  At the time, the Department announced that it would consider the use of ‘084’ numbers in the light of a review of telephone numbering being carried out by Ofcom. "

This was in no way encouraging all or any doctors to abandon their geographic numbers and move to 0844 so I think my point to Mike Forster was valid.

The NHS is now saying  "Ministers wrote to Primary Care Trusts in December 2006 asking them to take action to ensure that patients phoning GP practices do not pay more than theywould if they called an area code number."

This means they should either use 01/02 numbers or the new 03 numbers.

~ Edited by Dave: Quote box tidied up

Hi loddon,

You said in your last post:

“....The NHS is now saying "Ministers wrote to Primary Care Trusts in December 2006 asking them to take action to ensure that patients phoning GP practices do not pay more than they would if they called an area code number."
This means they should either use 01/02 numbers or the new 03 numbers. ....”

Do you have a reference to what NHS is now saying, together with a copy of the December 06 letter?   This information may be useful to quote to errant doctors.

kk

kk wrote on Sep 14^th, 2007 at 12:49pm:

Do you have a reference to what NHS is now saying, together with a copy of the December 06 letter?

The letter from Lord Warner can be downloaded here.

Dave wrote on Sep 14^th, 2007 at 1:36pm:

The letter from Lord Warner can be downloaded

One may see that this letter makes no reference whatsoever to the permissibility of revenue sharing. Revenue sharing has always been precluded by the specified terms of the mandatory elements of the GMS contract, which are imposed as a statutory requirement on PCTs.

The letter does nothing to change that position, one way or the other. This is obviously a serious omission, which must now be corrected by clarification from the Department of Health - Are NHS services "free at the point of use" or not?

David

loddon wrote on Sep 14^th, 2007 at 9:55am:

pw4, as I mentioned before and as your quote from 24/02/05 says, GP practices then using 0870 were required to change their number to something else which was acceptable, but other doctors were not "encouraged" to go to 0844.

Yes, I take your point - practices were not explicitly encouraged by the DH to adopt 0844 in place of geo numbers, but I would suggest they were led to believe that 0844 was acceptable because those using premium and 'national' rate numbers were required to change to 0844 (and funding made available for the purpose), and because the DH in the same announcment described them as "'lo-call' rate numbers" and numbers "that offer patients a guaranteed low rate call, such as '0845' or '0844'".  

loddon wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 6:39pm:

If anyone living in the South West could check on the local regional BBC TV evening news programme they may find that the BBC are running an item about doctors using 0844 numbers!    If you do see it could you let us know here what is said on the prog.

Anyone who has Sky would be able to watch the South West BBC1 channel regardless of where they are located in the UK.

Sadly due to unknown powers on this website again desubscribing me from this thread I was unaware of the program until now when it is too late. :(

NGM,

I have sent a link to this as a broadcast clip to your email address.   Hope it works.

You may be interested in reading the thread I have just started about the money spent by 10 Downing Street in making a video posted on the YouTube website to respond to the Make Jeremy Clarkson PM petition compared to their responses to our various anti 084/7 petitions.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1219172169

You may be interested in reading the thread I have just started about the money spent by 10 Downing Street in making a video posted on the YouTube website to respond to the Make Jeremy Clarkson PM petition compared to their responses to our various anti 084/7 petitions.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1219172169