There are ususally numerous requests for the geographic equivalents of 0845 numbers.

Without studying Dave's posting "Geographical (01/02) vs 0845/0870 price comparison" under Important Topics it is probably not widely appreciated that for BT Together Option 1 subscribers (likely to be still the majority) daytime calls to 0845 numbers are now actually cheaper than calling geographic numbers.

From 1 August 2007 for BT Together Option 1 subscribers an 0845 daytime call will cost 2p/min.  This compares with the cost of calling a geographic number of 3¼p/min. The 6p call setup fee applies to both.

0845 numbers are widely used by government agencies who can generally only be called during the day.

Of course, the above doesn't apply to BT Options 2 and 3, evening/weekend calls, other providers including mobile networks, but I think the point is still worth making.

As you have stated it does not apply to people who only have mobiles or have to use a payphone, (11p per minute from a payphone and up to 20p per minute from a mobile).

Nor does it apply to access 01/02 during the day via the likes of 1889,18866, 18185 etc, as they charge per minute to call 0845 but 01/02 is 5/6p per call, therefore to call banks, government departments etc will mostly cost people more to use 0845 than 01/02, and as most of those calls go into queues it is still going to be the more  expensive route to have to call 0845.

derrick wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 11:01am:

... up to 20p per minute from a mobile ...

I think it is likely to be more than that - just looking at O2's special numbers (http://www.o2.co.uk/specialnumbers) shows that people on PAYG will pay up to 25p per minute.

lompos wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 10:39am:

. . . From 1 August 2007 for BT Together Option 1 subscribers an 0845 daytime call will cost 2p/min.  This compares with the cost of calling a geographic number of 3¼p/min. The 6p call setup fee applies to both.

  I spotted this, and it looks like other providers have leapt at this. However, there is a huge sting in the tail, as there is no longer a "weekend" daytime rate, and those calling 0870 Saturday morning to avoid 7ppp and expecting 1.5ppp will find that daytime Sat & Sun is now the same 7ppp. It is necessary to call after 6pm to get weekend rates every evening, renamed to evening rate. The same applies to 0845, 2ppp all day, 7 days a week, but 1ppp every evening.

  This does indeed create the situation where 0845 is a good deal cheaper on the standard pay as you call landline tarriffs. Sadly, most companies seem to be using 0844 as "Lo-Call", and this can cause confusion in the businesses favour, as many think 0844 is just another tranche of 0845 Lo-Call numbers, just as we were lead to believe 0871 to be another tranche of "National Rate" numbers.

With out being accused of being finniky but it is 6ppp and not 7ppp

I think that the previous posters have misunderstood the point I was trying to make which was that we should avoid misleading people into thinking that 0845 numbers are always dearer than geographic numbers.

The opposite is true for BT Together Option 1 subscribers (probably numbered in millions) who make weekday daytime calls to organisations which use 0845 numbers, typically:

Banks
Job Centres (there are 68 Jobcentres listed in the database with equivalent geographic numbers)
HMRC
etc, etc.

Perhaps every time a request is made for the geographic equivalent of an 0845 number this should be pointed out as a matter of routine.

lompos wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 8:51pm:

I think that the previous posters have misunderstood the point I was trying to make which was that we should avoid misleading people   into thinking that 0845 numbers are always dearer than geographic numbers.

I disagree with you for three reasons:

1. You can say that "geographicals are cheaper" without misleading, as you put it.
2. Geo chargeable call prices have gone up to compensate for reductions in the price of inclusive packages.
3. It costs telcos more to connect 0845 calls than 01/02 ones, which means that 0845 can't fall in price anywhere near as much as 01/02 has. Thus, we should not be supporting this by calling 0845 numbers.

The ultimate test, apart from philosophical considerations, is what represents best value for the consumer.

Take an example. Yesterday somebody asked for the geographic number for income support in Blackburn, which is in fact the benefit delivery office in Burnley and has an 0845 number.

How are we to know if the requestor is using BT Together Option 1, 2, 3, a non-BT service provider, a mobile or a payphone? He/she may not be familiar with the complexities of call charging systems. Shouldn't it be pointed out that were he/she on BT Together Option 1 he/she would be better off using the 0845 number? If, after research, we just tell the requestor the equivalent geographic number without a qualifying note, and he/she is on Option 1, we would effectively be misleading him/her into thinking that 01/02 is cheaper.



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lompos wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 9:47pm:

The ultimate test, apart from philosophical considerations, is what represents best value for the consumer.

I am looking at it from the point of view that 0845 numbers cannot be lower than what BT charges for them. So there isn't as much room for telcos to vary their charges for them as is the case with 01/02.

I accept what you're saying about those on BT Together Option 1 during the daytime, Monday to Friday who pay less for 0845 than 01/02. But using that as a justification now is similar to those organisations that used to say they were charging "local rate" (0845) simply because it was that on older BT tariffs which were also the same tariffs that distinguished between local/national. The reality in that case was that the market was tending towards so-called "discounted" packages.

Quote:

I accept what you're saying about those on BT Together Option 1 during the daytime, Monday to Friday who pay less for 0845 than 01/02. But using that as a justification......

Assuming that we set out to inform people of the most economical way to make phone calls my point was that we are effectively misleading them if we don't put a qualifying note about 0845 on BT Together Option 1 being cheaper Monday-Friday daytime than calling the underlying geographic number. It is not "justification" in any sense, it is merely factual information.

It is not as though this was a marginal issue. A massive number of people are still on BT Together Option1 perhaps through inertia (it would be interesting to find out how many) and the volume of Mo-Fri daytime calls to organisations with 0845 numbers must be huge since they encompass banks, buiding societies, job centres, tax offices, utilities, insurance companies, stores, the postal service, etc. etc.

Taking a 7 day period I would venture the guess that there are more BT Together Option 1 calls to 0845 numbers Mo-Fri daytime than calls to these numbers through any other telco charging system at all times.

lompos wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 9:47pm:

The ultimate test, apart from philosophical considerations, is what represents best value for the consumer. Take an example. Yesterday somebody asked for the geographic number for income support in Blackburn, which is in fact the benefit delivery office in Burnley and has an 0845 number. How are we to know if the requestor is using BT Together Option 1, 2, 3, a non-BT service provider, a mobile or a payphone? He/she may not be familiar with the complexities of call charging systems. Shouldn't it be pointed out that were he/she on BT Together Option 1 he/she would be better off using the 0845 number? If, after research, we just tell the requestor the equivalent geographic number without a qualifying note, and he/she is on Option 1, we would effectively be misleading him/her into thinking that 01/02 is cheaper. .

01/02 will still be cheaper on option 1,(and option 2 during the day), if using one of the prefix numbers;- 1889,18866 18185,etc as they only cost 5/6p per call, not per minute, so it would not matter how long you sat in the usual queue, e.g. 10 minutes on a call using 0845 = 20p,(plus the 6p conn charge), = 26p,  10 minutes on a call to 01/02 using a prefix = 5p in total, every extra minute using 0845 increase the phone bill by 2p, every extra minute using a prefix to dial 01/02 does not increase the initial 5p at all! And obviously we all know the 0845 will cost more using a mobile or a payphone, and in most,(if not all), cases all other telcos

So you could still mislead the requester if you do not give them ALL the info.


I have edited this post to include the 6p conn charge for the 0845 number.

lompos wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 8:49am:

It is not as though this was a marginal issue. A massive number of people are still on BT Together Option1 perhaps through inertia (it would be interesting to find out how many) and the volume of Mo-Fri daytime calls to organisations with 0845 numbers must be huge since they encompass banks, buiding societies, job centres, tax offices, utilities, insurance companies, stores, the postal service, etc. etc.

There were many on BT Standard when it was taken away in July 2004. This was the mainstream tariff where 0845 was local rate.

Just because BT Standard existed prior to July 2004 was no justification for the 0845="local rate" tag because competition was pulling the direction of breaking down that link. BT Standard charges (for 01/02) were high compared to those of BT Together and BT's competitors at the time. The same could be said of BT Together Option 1 now.