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Message started by derrick on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 10:50am

Title: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by derrick on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 10:50am
I recently asked the BBC what they where going to do when the revenue sharing stopped on 0870 numbers, here are my questions and their reply;-

As the BBC is a prolific abuser of the 0870 telephone numbers, I wish to know, under the Freedom of Information Act 2005:-

1)  What they intend to do when revenue sharing ends on these numbers in February 2008, i.e. are you going to continue to use these numbers so that the licence fee payers will then only be paying a normal call charge.

2)  Are you going to revert to the geographical 01/02 numbers.

3)   Or are you going to use an 03 number that COI & CAP state that Government bodies should use


2 November 2007


Dear ******

Freedom of information request – RFI2007****

Thank you for your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“the FOI Act”) dated
29 October 2007.  You requested the following information:

“1)    What they intend to do when revenue sharing ends on these numbers in  
 February 2008, i.e. are you going to continue to use these numbers so that the
 licence fee payers will then only be paying a normal call charge.  
2) Are you going to revert to the geographical 01/02 numbers.
3)  Or are you going to use an 03 number that COI & CAP state Government bodies
should use.”

I can confirm, in accordance with section 1(1)(a) of the FOI Act, that the BBC does not
currently hold this information.  The BBC is still in the process of assessing the options
available to it with respect to Ofcom’s changes to 0870 telephone numbers, which come into
effect in February 2008.

I can also confirm that when the BBC has assessed the options available to it that any
changes will be made publicly available.

Appeal Rights
If you are not satisfied with this response you have the right to an internal review by a BBC
senior manager or legal adviser. Please contact us at the address above, explaining what
you would like us to review and including your reference number. If you are not satisfied with the internal review, you can appeal to the Information Commissioner. The contact details are:  
Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9
5AF, telephone 01625 545 700 or see http://www.ico.gov.uk/


Yours sincerely

Andrea Chard
Advisor, Information Policy & Compliance




Surely they should know by now what they are going to do?

Any suggestions for points to raise re an internal review?


Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by derrick on Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:25pm
Internal review response;-


Freedom of Information Internal Review Decision
 


Internal Reviewer           Simon Pickard, Information and Compliance Manager

  Reference     IR200700**** (RFI20070*****)


Date:   23 November 2007


Original Request:  ‘As the BBC is a prolific abuser of the 0870 telephone numbers, I wish to know under the Freedom of Information Act 2005:-  

1. What they intend to do when revenue sharing ends on these numbers in February 2008, i.e. are you going to continue to use these numbers so that the licence fee payers will then only be paying a normal call charge.

2. Are you going to revert to the geographical 01/02 numbers

3. Or are you going to use an 03 number that COI & CAP state that Government bodies should use.’


Issues on review:    The requester is not satisfied that the BBC responded stating that it was still in the process of assessing the options available with respect to Ofcoms changes to 0870 telephone numbers, and therefore did not currently hold the information that the requester sought.



Findings

This internal review was conducted to ascertain whether the BBC was correct in stating that the information requested was not held (at the date of the initial request) and to ensure that adequate measures were taken to reach this conclusion.

Having looked at the internal correspondence surrounding this request it is clear that at the time of the original request the BBC had not finalised its decisions regarding the use of ‘premium rate’ telephone numbers. At the time of the original request, the BBC was still in negotiations with both Siemens and Cable & Wireless, both of which provide the telephone technology used by the BBC. Individuals from the BBC’s Marketing, Communication & Audiences Division and Siemens were involved in providing information for the response to the original request.

The BBC’s response dated 2 November 2007 stated ‘that when the BBC has assessed the options available to it that any changes will be made publicly available’. It is my view that it would have been helpful to the requester if the original response could have given some indication as to when a decision regarding any changes might be made (if possible) and also where such information would be made publicly available.

The BBC is not a ‘Government body’ governed by the Central Office of Information (COI).

As a final point, it is worth noting that at the date of this internal review, the BBC has still yet to finalise its decisions regarding the use of 03 telephone numbers. I understand that a paper with recommendations is to be presented to the BBC in December for approval.

Conclusion

I uphold the original findings that the BBC did not hold the information requested at the date
of the original request.




So as "The BBC is not a ‘Government body’ governed by the Central Office of Information (COI)." it looks like they will take no notice of the COI !


Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by derrick on Mar 21st, 2008 at 10:43am
Received the following from th ICO,( I originally contacted this waste of space in September 2006 about this),

17 March 2008

Case Reference Number FS50******

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your most recent email.

Unfortunately I am unable to provide you with a definitive date as to when the formal decision will be reached. Similarly, at present, I am not in a position to provide you with an indication as to my recommendations to the Commissioner. I would however appreciate your comments on some of the assertions (outlined below) made by the BBC.

The BBC has a general telecommunications technology contract with Siemens who order non-geographic numbers from their preferred communications supplier for BBC services - Cable & Wireless (C&W).There are two ways that the BBC receives 0870 numbers from C&W those supported with a call plan and those that are not.

0870 numbers with call plans attached have functionalities such as:

•      Time of the day routing - which provides a mechanism for callers to be
diverted to different routing numbers dependent on the time of the day and the
day of the week.

•      Queue Managers - which can be applied to any call centre where in-bound
peaks in call traffic exceed the resources available to answer calls. Calls are
automatically answered by the queue manager system and held in the
network.

•      Call Forwarding - provides for call diversion to another number when lines
are busy or if there is no answer.


• IVR (Interactive Voice Responses) - provides for calls to be answered by an auto attendant service (currently C&W sub-contract their IVR services to Telecom Express).

The majority of the BBC's 0870 numbers with call plans are used by Capita to provide services to the BBC. While some calls may be forwarded to BBC geographic telephone numbers at a later stage, all the initial calls are routed through geographic telephone numbers owned and managed by Capita. Capita needing to have their own set of geographic numbers as a technical requirement for providing telecommunication services such as premium rate lines. As such the geographic telephone numbers are held by Capita not the BBC; nor are they held on the BBC's behalf by Capita.

If you wish me to consider your views on the BBC's assertions above (or indeed any views you have not previously expressed) please deliver them to me within twenty working days from the date of this letter.

■ Your sincerely

  Richard Lawanson

Senior Complaints Officer



Any comments to assist in  a response  will be appreciated, as the last paragraph appears to give some scope for further questions/points

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Barbara on Mar 21st, 2008 at 2:36pm
Only slightly off message but I as listening to Radio 2 this morning at about 8.15 when the presenter was telling listeners about free tickets to a recording.  He gave the 0870 number for the ticket office with the cost of up to 8ppm from a BT landline then added"well so they're not really free [tickets] then, are they?" before giving the web addess and suggesting that might be a better way of requesting tickets!!!  The message must be getting through somewhere!

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jamesbond on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 8:49pm
Hi there!

Steve Wright was on BBC Radio 2 this afternoon and he mentioned that the number for Love Songs show on Sunday has changed to:

03700 100 200

James Bond

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jgxenite on Jul 3rd, 2008 at 1:01am
Just checked the Radio 1 contact us page - yet another 03700 number! http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/help/contactus/

:)

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Heinz on Jul 3rd, 2008 at 9:42am
The BBC TravelLine changed from 08700 100 200 to 03700 100 200 yesterday so that number must have more than one use.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by loddon on Jul 4th, 2008 at 7:26am
Watching BBC TV this morning they showed a contact number on the screen.   It was ........

08707 .........

So some 0870 numbers have NOT been changed to 03...

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jgxenite on Jul 4th, 2008 at 8:01am
Breakfast, NewsWatch and Points of View (of the top of my head) did not use the standard "08700 100" format. I presume that, for the time being, they are still using the 0870x numbers that they had before.

I haven't listened / watched any BBC channels recently to see whether they are advertising their new 0370 numbers, but the website seems to have more or less completely changed over to them.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by loddon on Jul 4th, 2008 at 9:03am
We have been in touch with BBC TV Breakfast and they have assured us that this 0870 number will be converted to 03 in a later batch.

It appears that the BBC are quietly converting batches of 0870 numbers over to 03 and do not intend to make any public announcement about their moves until they are completed.   Being reasonable people, as we are, we can understand that this sort of move will take some organisation and therefore some time, and are inclined to patiently await the outcome and to support and encourage the BBC in taking this action.

Sadly, we will still have to be critical and "damn the BBC with feint praise" (as NGMsGhost said) due to their "total illogicality" of continuing to use 0845 and 0871 numbers.    What we want to know is when are the BBC going to replace their 0845 and 0871 numbers with 03????

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by AJR on Jul 5th, 2008 at 1:29pm
"Any Answers" seems to have switched to an 0370 number. The website still lists 0870 but I'm pretty sure I heard the radio announcer say 0370.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by sherbert on Jul 5th, 2008 at 3:00pm
You will see here  http://www.bbc.co.uk/southerncounties/content/articles/2006/03/31/lr_get_in_touch_feature.shtml  that BBC Southern Counties Radio are still using an 0845 number but at the bottom of the page their switch boards have geographical numbers.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by irrelevant on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 11:45pm
I was listening to Feedback on R4 the other day.  They gave their new number:  03 333 444 544 "calls cost up to 8p per minute".  WHAT??!

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jrawle on Nov 4th, 2008 at 12:31pm

irrelevant wrote on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 11:45pm:
I was listening to Feedback on R4 the other day.  They gave their new number:  03 333 444 544 "calls cost up to 8p per minute".  WHAT??!


Of course, they can actually cost a lot more than that, from my mobile for example.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by sherbert on Nov 4th, 2008 at 12:43pm
Surely that would be covered in your free call package on your mobile

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jgxenite on Nov 4th, 2008 at 12:46pm
If you have inclusive geographic calls, then 03 should be covered by this. If they aren't, you need to complain to your mobile phone provider.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Dave on Nov 4th, 2008 at 1:11pm

irrelevant wrote on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 11:45pm:
I was listening to Feedback on R4 the other day.  They gave their new number:  03 333 444 544 "calls cost up to 8p per minute".  WHAT??!

Perhaps someone would like to draw the error to the attention of the programme's producers.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by jrawle on Nov 4th, 2008 at 3:17pm

sherbert wrote on Nov 4th, 2008 at 12:43pm:
Surely that would be covered in your free call package on your mobile

No because, believe it or not, some of us don't fork out for a mobile contract and use PAYG. Seeing as it's effectively compulsory to have a landline, why would I also pay for a mobile conract when I can use my inclusive calls on my landline? For anyone on Virgin PAYG, it costs 15p/min for the first five minutes, then 5p/min afterwards to call the BBC's number (although of course it's nuts to use a PAYG mobile to make anything other than emergency calls).

None of this changes the fact that the BBC is wrong. They should simply say the number costs the same as an 01/02 number.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by sherbert on Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:02pm
Point taken, as I have a contract with my mobile, I was not thinking of Pay as you go.

I use my contract mobile during the day and the land line after six, so that way I do not pay for any 01,02 or 03 calls.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Dave on Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:25pm

sherbert wrote on Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:02pm:
I use my contract mobile during the day and the land line after six, so that way I do not pay for any 01,02 or 03 calls.

Of course you do. They come from inclusive minutes which are part of the package paid for by the monthly fee (often referred to as "line rental"). The payment also subsidises the handset and any other services such as inclusive texts.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by sherbert on Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:52pm
Fair enough Dave, I take your point.  :-[ Mind you you could say  that you are paying for the 'free' calls on the landline via the line rental. Nothing in this world is free. If it was the economy would be even in a worse state!!

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Dave on Nov 4th, 2008 at 5:32pm

sherbert wrote on Nov 4th, 2008 at 4:52pm:
… Mind you you could say  that you are paying for the 'free' calls on the landline via the line rental. Nothing in this world is free. If it was the economy would be even in a worse state!!

Whilst it is true because all calls which are "inclusive" whether we are talking from landline or mobile have to be paid for by the telephone company retailing the calls, there are key differences.

Inclusive calls from landlines are "unlimited", although they may be limited to within a particular time period. Any "fair usage" policy is that high that in general terms, there is no finite limit on the number of minutes.

Mobile tariffs on the other hand have a limit on the number of minutes/texts and the price usually reflects this directly. What's more, outside of any minutes, the charges are usually broadly in line with that of pay as you go tariffs.

So the monthly fee the mobile providers like to call "line rental" does not actually reduce the cost of calls indefinately but for only a limited amount. It is therefore clear to see that the benefit received for paying this "line rental" is for the inclusive minutes and texts, handset and anything else.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by sherbert on Nov 4th, 2008 at 5:55pm
Thanks for that Dave...appreciate it. :)

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by catj on Jun 6th, 2009 at 10:05pm

Quote:
They gave their new number:  03 333 444 544 "calls cost up to 8p per minute".  WHAT??!


If you haven't got a "calls package" on your landline, then indeed these 03 calls *will* cost you up to 8ppm just as if you had dialled an 01 or 02 landline number at the same time of day.

It is 0800 and 0808 numbers that are completely free from a landline.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Dave on Jun 7th, 2009 at 12:41am

catj wrote on Jun 6th, 2009 at 10:05pm:
If you haven't got a "calls package" on your landline, then indeed these 03 calls *will* cost you up to 8ppm just as if you had dialled an 01 or 02 landline number at the same time of day.

I am not aware of any landline telephone tariff which charges 03 calls at 8 pence per minute. I think the "up to 8p per minute" message was left from when it was an 0870 number.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Heinz on Aug 10th, 2009 at 9:39am

Dave wrote on Jun 7th, 2009 at 12:41am:
I am not aware of any landline telephone tariff which charges 03 calls at 8 pence per minute. I think the "up to 8p per minute" message was left from when it was an 0870 number.

I wonder what their explanation of the caption at then end of each Newswatch programme is then?  If you could ever get them to reply that is.

Each time, it ends with the usual graphic of their new 0370 number - above a caption stating, "3p per minute from a landline".

Even for those using BT but without a calls package covering the time of their call, 3p per minute hasn't been the cost for some time now (IIRC, it's currently 4¼p and going up to 5¼p in October).

Head, wall, banging.  Commence.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by Heinz on Jan 22nd, 2012 at 10:25am

jamesbond wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 8:49pm:
Hi there!

Steve Wright was on BBC Radio 2 this afternoon and he mentioned that the number for Love Songs show on Sunday has changed to:

03700 100 200

James Bond

Unfortunately, in the BBC's typically muddled way, Steve Wright keeps announcing (and the website also states):


Quote:
Call 03700 100 200 to leave a message.

Standard geographic charges apply and calls may be included in your telecom provider’s call package. Calls from mobiles may be higher."

I've started emailing lovesongs@bbc.co.uk but don't hold out much hope as it's now more than 3½ years since the change.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by bazzerfewi on Jan 22nd, 2012 at 9:12pm

Heinz wrote on Jan 22nd, 2012 at 10:25am:

jamesbond wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 8:49pm:
Hi there!

Steve Wright was on BBC Radio 2 this afternoon and he mentioned that the number for Love Songs show on Sunday has changed to:

03700 100 200

James Bond

Unfortunately, in the BBC's typically muddled way, Steve Wright keeps announcing (and the website also states):


Quote:
Call 03700 100 200 to leave a message.

Standard geographic charges apply and calls may be included in your telecom provider’s call package. Calls from mobiles may be higher."

Ive started emailing lovesongs@bbc.co.uk but don't hold out much hope as it's now more than 3½ years since the change.



Maybe the thing to do is for members to ring the show and point out his error. If they receive enough calls they may anounce the correct number :)

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by SilentCallsVictim on Jan 22nd, 2012 at 10:04pm
It may take time, but the BBC can get things right.

The following (rather scruffy) animation shows the captions from Question Time, in sequence, for the following broadcast dates:

- 22 July 2010
- 16 September 2010
- 19 January 2012 - this latest change occurred for the broadcast on 6 Oct 2011!



This is discussed in my blog.

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by bazzerfewi on Jan 23rd, 2012 at 9:25pm
Nice One!

We are getting there slowly but surely :)

You are a credit to the site

Title: Re: BBC re 0870 number change
Post by SilentCallsVictim on Jan 23rd, 2012 at 11:34pm

bazzerfewi wrote on Jan 23rd, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Nice One!

We are getting there slowly but surely :)

You are a credit to the site

The real credit is due to whoever it was who got to the producers between the broadcasts of 29 September and 6 October. We all do our bit, this could have been just one email which hit them at the right moment.

It might be lovely if we knew what techniques always worked and which always failed, so we could also know who were the good guys and who the bad - but I do not think that life is like that!

We are only getting there because we are essentially right.

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