The BBC have recently started “adverts” for their “BBC HD channel”, and at the bottom of the  “advert” just below the 08700 10 10 10 number is the text; -
“Calls cost no more than 4p per minute from a BT landline. Other operators and mobile rates apply”

Now unless I am mistaken, BT charge up to 6p per minute plus a 6p set up charge, so as an example, a 3 minute call using BBC rates would cost 12p.
However using the true BT rates that same 3 minute call will cost 24p.

A clear case of Misleading Price Indications, which is a clear case of breaking the CRIMINAL Act that is the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (part III)  Misleading Price Indications.

Now which organisation might be interested for me,(and others), to complain to?
OfCoN and/or ASA.

derrick wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 9:46am:

Now which organisation might be interested for me,(and others), to complain to? OfCoN and/or ASA.

I think the most productive way of sorting this would be to e-mail the relevant BBC director. They are fully aware of the costs, so there's no need to provide much background information. In the first instance, I think we should assume this is a genuine error.

See the thread posted by NGMsGhost, BBC Board 03 Decision -21st April- Please Email where he's listed them.

I wouldn't send to them all. I think Tim Davie, Director of Marketing, Communications & Audiences, is the best person to contact.

Dave wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 6:59pm:

derrick wrote on May 28th, 2008 at 9:46am: Now which organisation might be interested for me,(and others), to complain to? OfCoN and/or ASA. In the first instance, I think we should assume this is a genuine error.

The BBC genuine error?

Genuine misinformation if you ask me, they have a track record for it!

Are you going soft on the BBC Dave?  ::)

I have sent an email to various people at the BBC, and up to now have received 4 out of office replies, however I have just received this one from Michael Stock; -

Dear Mr ******,

Thank you for your e-mail addressed to Tim Davie which has been passed to me for reply.  

I note your concerns about the trail promoting our High Definition service and reference to call charges.  Thank you for highlighting this error regarding the reference to the call charges. This has now been corrected and we apologise for any inconvenience caused. As you point out, the BT website gives the landline costs as Daytime 6ppm, Evening 1.5ppm, plus a 6p set up fee.

You may like to know that over the summer the BBC will be moving all our 0870 numbers to the new 0370 numbers which cost no more than to 01 and 02 geographic numbers and are included in call discount plans for calls from both landline and mobiles which will mean that our audience can call the BBC for the lowest cost.

Regards,

Michael Stock Head of Business & Partnerships
BBC Marketing, Communications & Audiences

I have just received this email from the Trustees; -


Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your email of 29 May to the BBC’s Trustees. I am acknowledging receipt on their behalf.

I have noted that your email was also sent to members of the BBC Executive Board. As I have explained previously, the role of the BBC Trust is distinct from that of the BBC Executive. The BBC’s Royal Charter is clear that operational matters such as this and ensuring the BBC’s legal compliance fall within the remit of the BBC Executive rather than the Trust (Charter, Sections 36c-d). It is therefore appropriate that the BBC’s management investigate the matter you have raised and respond to you.

I would like to assure you, however, that the points you have raised have been noted for the information of Trustees.


Yours sincerely

Victoria Finney

Correspondence Manager

BBC Trust Unit

Has anyone seen this advert since Derrick's complaint and has it been corrected?

I saw one of the BBC HD adverts (the one with Fiona Bruce talking) recently and it still had the "4p a minute" blurb at the bottom.

The BBC always quote "from a BT landline" when they give onscreen prices for calls and I think someone's just got a bit ahead of themselves with this one.

When their 0370 numbers are introduced later this year, wording like "calls are charged at a maximum of 4p/minute from a BT landline" will be correct (same as a standard 01 or 02 call).

Dave wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 4:17am:

Has anyone seen this advert since Derrick's complaint and has it been corrected?

I saw it last night and it has been corrected it now reads; -

“Calls cost no more than 6p per minute plus a 6p set up fee from a BT landline. Other operators and mobile rates apply”

Heinz wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 11:12am:

The BBC always quote "from a BT landline" when they give onscreen prices for calls and I think someone's just got a bit ahead of themselves with this one. When their 0370 numbers are introduced later this year, wording like "calls are charged at a maximum of 4p/minute from a BT landline" will be correct (same as a standard 01 or 02 call).

But they still "conveniently forget" to include the set up fee in most,if not all, their price indications!

As in before they changed the price indication it stated, "Calls cost no more than 4p per minute from a BT landline"

It now states, "Calls cost no more than 6p per minute plus a 6p set up fee from a BT landline"

So it can be done, they just don't want to inform people of the correct premium charge!

Further to  my post above, #3,  I sent an email reply to Mr Stock as follows; -

Dear Mr Stock,

Thank you for your reply and the correction to the "advert"

However I would like to ask you about your comment; - "BBC will be moving all our 0870 numbers to the new 0370 numbers"  

What about the slow migration that the BBC is doing re 0871 and 0844 numbers that are gradually creeping into advertised numbers to contact the BBC on, are they going to be moved to 03 numbers? because they cost more than 0870 at evenings and weekends, and more than 01/02/03 at ALL times. no telco allows them in paid for phone packages.

Regards



I have received the following reply; -

Dear Mr ******,

Thank you for your follow up email about 0871 and 0844.

There are a couple of uses of 0871 by independent production companies and we will be reviewing this in the light of what PhonePayPlus say when they take over the regulation of these numbers. On 0844, to my knowledge the uses are limited to the BBC Shop and TVLicencing. There are no plans to migrate additional numbers ot 0871 or 0844.

regards




Haven't PhonePayPlus started regulating 0871 yet?

derrick wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 4:09pm:

Haven't PhonePayPlus started regulating 0871 yet?

No. There is a consultation on this (which ends on the same day as the 0870 one):

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/087prs/

Dave wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 4:13pm:

No. There is a consultation on this (which ends on the same day as the 0870 one): http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/087prs/

Ouch I see these consultations both end on Monday 16th June.  I thought it would be much later than that.  They normally run consultations for 10 weeks.  Indeed they are supposed to unless they can find a good reason to make them shorter.

I haven't seen any front banner ad on this website publicising the consultation or counting down the days to closure or any email from Daniel encouraging us to respond.

I know we all feel all consulted out with Ofcom and ICSTIS and that they never ever listen to what we say but it is still important to send something to show the public are discontented and that Ofcom are ignoring them.

Can Daniel get something out by email to all forum members by Thursday pointing out the closing date for responding is next Monday?  Also can a banner to an article with links and counting down be added today or tomorrow?

derrick wrote on May 29^th, 2008 at 5:04pm:

I have sent an email to various people at the BBC, and up to now have received 4 out of office replies, however I have just received this one from Michael Stock; - Dear Mr ******, Thank you for your e-mail addressed to Tim Davie which has been passed to me for reply.   I note your concerns about the trail promoting our High Definition service and reference to call charges.  Thank you for highlighting this error regarding the reference to the call charges. This has now been corrected and we apologise for any inconvenience caused. As you point out, the BT website gives the landline costs as Daytime 6ppm, Evening 1.5ppm, plus a 6p set up fee. You may like to know that over the summer the BBC will be moving all our 0870 numbers to the new 0370 numbers which cost no more than to 01 and 02 geographic numbers and are included in call discount plans for calls from both landline and mobiles which will mean that our audience can call the BBC for the lowest cost. Regards, Michael Stock Head of Business & Partnerships BBC Marketing, Communications & Audiences

Michael Stock is the guy who wrote the paper considered and passed by the BBC Board recommending the changes so he is obviously best placed to reply on this subject.

derrick wrote on May 29^th, 2008 at 12:12pm:

The BBC genuine error? Genuine misinformation if you ask me, they have a track record for it! Are you going soft on the BBC Dave?  ::)

I totally agree with you Derrick.

Capita, who run the BBC Information call centre, have put out some of the most despicable lies ever seen over the last few years to justify the use of 084/7 and they continued with all the rubbish about it making fair because everyone now pays the same price wherever they are in the UK, even years after BT Standard and Local Calls were scrapped in 2004.

The big problem is that the BBC uses too many commercial third party suppliers and doesn't set proper rules on things like phone numbers and what is acceptable in its contracts with them.  I am disturbed to hear the BBC now still thinks it will still have some numbers that will not begin 03 including the licence fee information line.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 5:45pm:

I haven't seen any front banner ad on this website publicising the consultation or counting down the days to closure or any email from Daniel encouraging us to respond. I know we all feel all consulted out with Ofcom and ICSTIS and that they never ever listen to what we say but it is still important to send something to show the public are discontented and that Ofcom are ignoring them. Can Daniel get something out by email to all forum members by Thursday pointing out the closing date for responding is next Monday?  Also can a banner to an article with links and counting down be added today or tomorrow?

In the past when this has been done it has linked to some pages on the site giving advice on how to respond. Discussion on these consultations has been small, as you can see from the length of this thread.

A agree with encouraging people to respond as we have done in the past.

Amongst others I complained to about this was OfCon, I have just received a response, typical useless OfCoN; -

Dear Mr ******

BBC HD trailer

Thank you for contacting Ofcom.

We've noted your concerns about promotions for the BBC's HD services, which directed callers to ring 08700 10 10 10. We understand you felt the reference to calls to that number costing no more than 4 pence per minute from a BT landline was misleading as this would not be the case.

Our understanding is that, while calls to 08700 numbers can be in excess of this cost as you illustrated, companies can negotiate particular rates for individual lines with these prefixes, and on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line.

Ofcom can investigate complaints about incorrect billing or misleading references to call charges, but given the above, and that we've received no pattern of complaints to indicate consumers have been billed other than as detailed in these promotions, there don't appear to be regulatory grounds to intervene, and we recommend contacting the BBC directly with any feedback on this matter if you have not done so already:

PO Box 1922, Glasgow, G2 3WT
Tel: 08700 100 222   www.bbc.co.uk/complaints


Yours sincerely,

Alistair Hall




Notice the complaints line to the BBC is 0870


And notice OfCon have assumed that "on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line. "


What an arrogant lump of s*** OfCoN are!


I have replied back forwarding the email from Mr Stock and informing them that they were wrong,(so is OfCoN) and that it has been put right, but not by OfCon but through me.

derrick wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 1:45pm:

on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line.

Offering such an obviously un-substantiated (indeed, false) comment is a disgrace. It demands an apology from Ofcom and an assurance that action has been taken to ensure that no such error is made in future.

Ofcom comes out with quite enough bs, but this is wholly unacceptable.

If it had said "it is possible that the BBC will have negotiated ..." and referred you to your telco and the BBC before coming back to Ofcom if unable to resolve your dispute, after also going through the relevant arbitrator, that would have been a proper response.

Ofcom does not regulate users of telephone services, such as the BBC. It did not need to make any comment at all, unless the complaint had been about the charge actually incurred for calling this number, when the BBC could have been deemed to be an agent of the OCP mis-stating its charges.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 1:22am:

derrick wrote on Jun 18th, 2008 at 1:45pm: on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line. Offering such an obviously un-substantiated (indeed, false) comment is a disgrace. It demands an apology from Ofcom and an assurance that action has been taken to ensure that no such error is made in future. Ofcom comes out with quite enough bs, but this is wholly unacceptable. If it had said "it is possible that the BBC will have negotiated ..." and referred you to your telco and the BBC before coming back to Ofcom if unable to resolve your dispute, after also going through the relevant arbitrator, that would have been a proper response. Ofcom does not regulate users of telephone services, such as the BBC. It did not need to make any comment at all, unless the complaint had been about the charge actually incurred for calling this number, when the BBC could have been deemed to be an agent of the OCP mis-stating its charges.

I did reply to Mr Hall yesterday by e-mail and this morning via his voicemail, to which I received the following e-mail; -

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your e-mail and voicemail.

I understand you are unhappy with our previous response in light of information you have received from the BBC which demonstrates they made an error in the call price quoted in their promotions.  Our previous response was on the understanding that the BBC may have negotiated a specific rate for people to call their 0870 number, as is sometimes the case, and at that stage we judged it would be more appropriate for you to contact the BBC directly for more background on any such arrangements.

Obviously this would not preclude us taking up an investigation in the event of evidence that the promotion was misleading, and in light of the information you have since received from the BBC to this effect, I have opened a new case for your complaint, ref: 1-********, which I have escalated for further review and response in due course.

Yours sincerely

:: Alistair Hall



Now I cannot see what they can do now that the "advert" has been corrected, but lets see what he comes up with.

I also asked in my e-mail yesterday and again this morning in my response to his e-mail, seeing as he chose not to answer the question; -  
P.S when are you going to stop telcos and others still,(nearly 4 years after the terms were made redundant,)  calling 0845/0870 numbers "local and national" respectively?

~ Edited by Dave: Reference number removed

Just received this from him in reply to my question about 0845/0870 local/national terms; -

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your further e-mail. The comments you highlighted in red in this and previous will be fielded when we respond to the review of your complaint.

Yours sincerely

derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 1:00pm:

The comments you highlighted in red in this and previous will be fielded when we respond to the review of your complaint.

Is Ofcom seriously suggesting that it will investigate and respond to specific complaints about mis-description of the rates for calling 084x and 087x numbers?

If so, would Ofcom be happy for Derrick to publish Mr Hall's email address and the case number, so that members of this forum could present every example that they come across?


I caution all to recognise that Ofcom has no specific statutory powers of regulation over those who use phrases like "local" and "national" rate, unless they are Telco's or acting as their agents - I stand to be corrected on this point if anyone has read the Communications Act 2003 more closely.

If however Mr Hall is prepared to put in work on this, perhaps bluffing the offenders that Ofcom has more powers than it does (a not unfamiliar tactic), then he should perhaps be thanked and congratulated.




derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:55pm:

Our previous response was on the understanding that the BBC may have negotiated a specific rate

That may indeed be true, but if so, he was in error when he used the phrase: will have negotiated. The later comment could be taken as an admission of the error, as it uses the same phrase with the significant word changed, although there is no apology.

I have finally received a response and it is typical OfCoN trash; -

BBC HD trailer

Thank you for your email of 19 June 2008, which has been passed to me, as Case Leader, Commercial and Consumer Protection, in the Standards Team.

I have now read all the correspondence to date and note that the BBC has admitted it broadcast erroneous cost information with regard to the 0870 number it promoted.

In his letter dated 16 June 2008, my colleague, Alistair Hall, stated that Ofcom can investigate complaints concerning misleading references to call charges in programmes. While this is generally the case, Ofcom's statutory powers concerning the regulation of the BBC's broadcast output does not extend to the accuracy of such material, which falls within the remit of the BBC Trust
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/).

The memorandum of understanding between Ofcom and the BBC Trust can be found at:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/accoun/mou/mou.pdf  

With regard to your more general query concerning call charge information with regard to 08 numbers, Ofcom has worked with the Committee of Advertising Practice to develop guidelines for advertisers, which recommends that terms such as 'national' and 'local' should not be used. Ofcom has also contributed to similar guidance produced by the Central Office of Information for public sector organisations. We are currently in the process of implementing proposals to repair the linkage between charges for 0870 calls and national calls to geographic numbers and later this year will consider whether to adopt similar measures for 0845.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Yours sincerely

David Burkin
Content and Standards

derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:55pm:

I also asked in my e-mail yesterday and again this morning in my response to his e-mail, seeing as he chose not to answer the question; -   P.S when are you going to stop telcos and others still,(nearly 4 years after the terms were made redundant,)  calling 0845/0870 numbers "local and national" respectively?

I've not been on the board for a bit, so not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this recent ASA decision is a very useful and clear decision to point anybody at when contacting them about the "local rate" labels, at least on marketing materials.   Indeed, it's encouraged me to report a whole series of leaflets from one particular supermarket to them, all of which have "calls charged at local rates" on the bottom, referring to this decision.

irrelevant wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 11:17pm:

I've not been on the board for a bit, so not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this recent ASA decision is a very useful and clear decision to point anybody at when contacting them about the "local rate" labels, at least on marketing materials. …

Thanks for that irrelevant, it's very useful. They even say:


Quote:

We therefore considered that describing calls to 0845 numbers as local rate was not only inaccurate and meaningless to the majority of viewers, it could also mislead those who still considered 'local' as synonymous with calling a geographic number.