It is illegal under Section 6(1) of the Employment Agencies Act 1973 for any Employment Agency to use 0870 numbers, and BERR will prosecute anyone using them.
So how many do you know?
I have reported three so far.

See:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1973/cukpga_19730035_en_1#pb3-l1g9

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=4&BrowseLetter=E&NavFrom=1&parentActiveTextDocId=2305191&ActiveTextDocId=2305237&filesize=2208

Exactly. See berr.gov.uk as well

pcjint wrote on Jun 1^st, 2008 at 7:25pm:

Exactly. See berr.gov.uk as well

Please provide a link to the page(s) you refer to.

Would anyone agree that this law would apply to the jobcentre?

I don't mean to ask a stupid question, but is there any reason not to email BERR and ask them straight up whether this is against the law and what powers they have to stop it if it is, referring them to this thread, and asking for their advice?

Their main email address appears to be: enquiries@berr.gsi.gov.uk

I don't know anything about this and I'm all for pursuing it, but why not start with the easiest options first and escalate from there.  8-)

Yes, go to berr.gov.uk
Employment Matters - Employment Agencies - Employment Agency Standards
Then complain!
They have already confirmed to the Recruitment and Employment Confederation that this practice is illegal.

Thanks pcjint,

I take it this is the link you are referring to: http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/employment-agencies/index.html

I can't find anything here about 0870 specifically, at least not on that page, though they do say agencies can't charge a fee for job searching. Do you happen to have any independently verifiable documentary evidence for your claim that they have already deemed 0870 numbers illegal? It would be interesting to have so that we could quote it in correspondence with them.

Best Wishes,
longusername

Yes, I have an EMail from the Employment and Recruitment Confederation (rec.co.uk) confirming this, so they will readily give you a printable quote I am sure.

longusername wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2008 at 4:56pm:

I can't find anything here about 0870 specifically, at least not on that page, though they do say agencies can't charge a fee for job searching. Do you happen to have any independently verifiable documentary evidence for your claim that they have already deemed 0870 numbers illegal? It would be interesting to have so that we could quote it in correspondence with them.

What about the usual slime ball answer of the call centre industry that the revenue share is less than the cost of their staff time in handling the call and paying for switchboard equipment etc.

Of course that seems garbage when if you walk in the door of such an agency they cannot levy any fee on you for using their service or taking up staff time, even though you may not then take any job or even go to an interview.

Also are Job Centres an Employment Agency under the terms of these rules?  Or are we saying they can use 0845 numbers and not contravene the rules but not 0870?  If so why are 0870 deemed as banned numbers for this purpose but 0845 are not?

Hi NGM'sGhost,

Yours is a knock-down riposte. It's possible to augment it, even, because the unit cost of providing a walk-in service is surely higher than that of providing a telephone service, considering the cost of renting the floor space for the public. I really can't think what our adversaries would say in reply. It's worth bearing in mind for our correspondence.

I'm not quite sure, however, how it responds to the quoted text, but that's not important.

As for why the law should not also apply to 0845, I think it should, but if the legal fact is that it doesn't yet, then perhaps we should at least start with requesting to have the law enforced.

longusername wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 1:52pm:

As for why the law should not also apply to 0845, I think it should, but if the legal fact is that it doesn't yet, then perhaps we should at least start with requesting to have the law enforced.

The law says:-


Quote:

Employment Agencies Act 1973 (c.35)        Main body        Conduct of employment agencies and employment businesses                                     Version 1 of 1 (Prospective available) Version 1 of 1 (Prospective available) Click to view attributes for this level 6. Restriction on charging persons seeking employment, etc. — (1) Except in such cases or classes of case as the Secretary of State may prescribe, a person carrying on an employment agency or an employment business shall not demand or directly or indirectly receive from any person any fee for finding him employment or for seeking to find him employment. (2) Any person who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1 level 5 on the standard scale]. Annotations: Amendments (Textual) F1       Words substituted by virtue of (E.W.) Criminal Justice Act 1982 (c. 48, SIF 39:1), ss. 38, 46 and (S.) Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 (c. 21, SIF 39:1), ss. 289F, 289G

So in relation to the above:-

1. What is it about 0870 numbers that would make them subject to this law and 0845 not subject to it?  Surely they both involve a revenue share payment not involved in calling an 01, 02, 03 or regular 07 mobile number?

2. What is to stop the Secretary of State exempting all Job Centre Pluses from these regulations?

I have to go now. I'll get back to you later on this. --LUN

Thanks for your patience NGMs Ghost,

It now looks to me as that, just as you suggest, the law does indeed apply to revenue sharing 0845 numbers (and therefore jobcentre plus) as well as 0870 numbers, but that it remains unclear whether BERR intends to enforce the law for 0845 numbers, though it will do so for 0870.

It's possible that jobcentre plus will deny receiving any revenue share with regard to 0845 numbers. It may be that they have some kind of deal with the telecoms providers as we have seen with other government agencies where the revenue share is hidden in the form of the provision of some other service by the telecoms provider. We'll have to cross that bridge when and if we come to it.

I am not sure what is the best way to proceed, but would suggest first contacting BERR to ask them to confirm that they do indeed take action on 0870 numbers, and whether they would consider taking action on 0845 numbers, and posting the reply here. If that is unsuccessful, we could then write to our MPs to see whether they will help and perhaps even to the Secretary of State himself. At some point we should probably try to get journalists interested in what looks like a case of a branch of the executive breaking the law. (Nick Cohen comes to mind).

Maybe the best thing is to start by putting in an FOI request to JobCentre Plus to ask whether they are gaining a revenue share of the 0845 numbers. Have there been any previous FOI requests regarding JobCentre Plus?

Would it be a bad idea to at the same time email BERR for clarification of their position?

In the meantime we should certainly go ahead and report any 0870 numbers being used by commercial job agencies that we know of. It might help if we were to post the names of those we have reported already so we don't double our efforts?

Best, LUN

longusername,

Try looking through the 20 or so pages of the Parliamentary Update thread.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1130983483

There might be something there regarding JobCentrePlus and revenue share income in a a reply to a Parliamentary question.

I think they will have claimed they take no revenue share though but underlyingly we know the company providing the telecoms contract will do it cheaper if they can use an 0845 than if not.  Hard to prove though.

Jobcentre brings up 22 results in a forum search.

This one looks interesting:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1163061909/48#48

You need to trace the Jobcentreplus response to a previous Ofcom consultations about 084/7 numbers.

OK found it.

See http://www1.bsc.org.uk/consult/condocs/numberingreview/responses/JobCentrePlus.pdf

longusername wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 12:18pm:

Maybe the best thing is to start by putting in an FOI request to JobCentre Plus to ask whether they are gaining a revenue share of the 0845 numbers. Have there been any previous FOI requests regarding JobCentre Plus?

The DWP "gave up" revenue in December 2007 and part of this was offset against other costs, parliamentary questions have revealed. I presume this includes 0845 numbers for Job Centres. As we know, the call cost remains the same.

Dave wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 1:50pm:

The DWP "gave up" revenue in December 2007 and part of this was offset against other costs, parliamentary questions have revealed. I presume this includes 0845 numbers for Job Centres. As we know, the call cost remains the same.

But self evidently the offset against other costs (eg against cost of outgoing phone calls with the same telecoms provider offering the incoming 0845 phone number) is still in fact a revenue share derived from the 0845 call income stream that is simply more disguised.  I am sure the DWP would lose on this if the matter ever went to court.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

But self evidently the offset against other costs (eg against cost of outgoing phone calls with the same telecoms provider offering the incoming 0845 phone number) is still in fact a revenue share derived from the 0845 call income stream that is simply more disguised.  I am sure the DWP would lose on this if the matter ever went to court.

Indeed.

And even the fact that the numbers remain in place means that customers are still charged. Whether the receipient chooses to receive it or not is up to them.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 1:10pm:

I think they will have claimed they take no revenue share though but underlyingly we know the company providing the telecoms contract will do it cheaper if they can use an 0845 than if not.  Hard to prove though.

Thanks NGMG,

I think that even if they do deny revenue sharing, the point made by Keith at the following link is correct.

http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1130983483/12#12

Surely as so long as 0845 services are capable of generating revenue, then effectively the jobcentre is making fee, and making a fee illegal under the 1973 act.

Either the government is failing in its public duty to reach the optimal arrangement with the 0845 supplier, or it is receiving services in kind.

I would have thought that either way the telecoms provider is operating on behalf of the government and, no matter whether the revenue goes to the provider or the government, the caller is being charged a fee.

What do you think we should do next?

Best, LUN

longusername wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 2:14pm:

What do you think we should do next?

Write to the DWP and copy in MPs who have shown an interest in non-geographical numbers by asking questions in Parliament. That way, they may decide to take up the matter.

Before that, we need to establish from BERR whether it considers that 0845 use is against the law, and whether it considers 0870 use to so as well.