My daughter is at university in Birmingham and has been allocated accomodation in halls operated by a private company called "unite". The fire regulations are causing me some concern; in the event of a fire the fire alarm will trigger.  The students have to determine themselves if it is a serious fire and dial an 0845 number within 4 minuites to stop the fire brigade attending.  If the fire brigade attend and the fire alarm has been triggered by, say burnt toast, they will be fined £100 for a false call out.  This pre-supposes that 1) the students have a mobile phone 2) it is fully charged and has credit on the phone (there are no phones at all within the rooms).  This appears to me to be about the worst possible use of a non-geographic number as it directly relates to the safety of the students.  I have contacted the company who state that 0845 is the only option, although I understand that all calls terminate in the companies central control unit in Bristol (unite operate halls at all the major universities).  Any advice that anybody can give or if anyone has other details that I can use to try to get "unite" to release a geographic number would be appreciated.  

The number you refer to is 0845 111 0021. This number has been previously discussed on this thread. There did used to be an alternative number (0117 302 7499) but it was "withdrawn".

I believe that properties normally have a call point somewhere in reception which I believe you could use for free to notify the control room of a false alarm. If someone is in reception, you should be able to notify them and they can call the control room for you (so you don't have to waste your money calling them yourselves).

redant wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:37pm:

My daughter is at university in Birmingham and has been allocated accomodation in halls operated by a private company called "unite". The fire regulations are causing me some concern; in the event of a fire the fire alarm will trigger.  The students have to determine themselves if it is a serious fire and dial an 0845 number within 4 minuites to stop the fire brigade attending.  If the fire brigade attend and the fire alarm has been triggered by, say burnt toast, they will be fined £100 for a false call out.  This pre-supposes that 1) the students have a mobile phone 2) it is fully charged and has credit on the phone (there are no phones at all within the rooms).  This appears to me to be about the worst possible use of a non-geographic number as it directly relates to the safety of the students.  I have contacted the company who state that 0845 is the only option, although I understand that all calls terminate in the companies central control unit in Bristol (unite operate halls at all the major universities).  Any advice that anybody can give or if anyone has other details that I can use to try to get "unite" to release a geographic number would be appreciated.

So what happens if there is no one in the halls and there is a false alarm, do the students still get fined? I would suggest you look into the legality of this clause.

Search the database for unite group to bring up the entries for this company.

There are few concerns about this post. Normally if you discover or suspect a fire, you will have to raise the fire alarm, I think this is a normal policy. Students are trained to investgate fire? Is it fair to fine students even if it is not their fault? Is there any phone available to use by the students to contact 'unite'? As sherbert suggested you need to seek legal advice.

gudman wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 1:22pm:

There are few concerns about this post. Normally if you discover or suspect a fire, you will have to raise the fire alarm, I think this is a normal policy. Students are trained to investgate fire? Is it fair to fine students even if it is not their fault? Is there any phone available to use by the students to contact 'unite'? As sherbert suggested you need to seek legal advice.

I agree that legal advice should be sought.

Under health and safety, when the fire alarm sounds, everyone should evacuate to the assembly point. What redante has said suggests that Unite is encouraging a potentially dangerous situation of people staying in the building.

For example, what happens if the alarm is falsely activated by someone burning toast, but simultaneously a real fire starts somewhere else? The control room will be notified whereabouts the alarm has been activated and would therefore know that there has been two activations. The person causing the false alarm would therefore stay in the building (and may tell others nearby that it's a false alarm) until they can get through to the control room who will inform them that there are two simultaneous activations.

As I say, I think this a potentially dangerous situation which needs looking into.

Many thanks for link and comments by Gudman.  No there are no phones provided by Unite so students have to rely on their mobiles.  My thoughts are the same about how to determine how serious the fire is.  Faced with a potential £100 fine would you concider a minor fire to be within your capabilities to deal with it?  I have referred the matter to Birmingham City Council who referred the matter to the Fire Service; they are currently reviewing fire procedures as they do not appear to be as agreed when the building opened (new accommodation opened September this year).  I will post if I have any further information.

Have just read your post Dave regarding possibility of two alarms. This does have very serious implications and will take up directly with unite, person I am dealing with is Joanne Butler-Henderson who is assisstant to the directors so should be able to refer quickly.  Am due to talk again to the Fire Service and will make this point to them.  I do feel this is potentially dangerous and should be clarified.

I would seriously suggest that you contact Birmingham City Council Health & Safety Department. The more I read and think about this,I think there is something very wrong here. If it is, then the council should bring an injunction against Unite Group to take this clause out of the students leases, contracts or what ever.

And apart from the issues mentioned so far, even without any toast nearby a faulty sensor can set off an alarm. It's contractually unfair and surely unenforceable for students to be fined by the company for potential malfunction of its own equipment.

What's more, the students don't know where all of these sensors are, for example if some are in locked parts of the premises such as plant rooms or control panel cabinets; they aren't trained to intervene there, and health and safety rules would prevent them doing so.

And if the alarms are faulty, is the company or its insurers liable to the residents for damage caused by false actuation of a sprinkler system, if there is one? If there's one legal grey area here, I wouldn't be surprised if there are several

I think before people get too carried away here, I think what UNITE is trying to say is that if you yourself had accidentally set the fire alarm off, then it is your responsibility to contact the control room and inform them that it is an accident. I think what has happened here is that people have misinterpreted what UNITE has said as assuming that students should be investigating fire alarms within the building that they didn't set off - I'm more than sure UNITE would never suggest that.

As I said earlier, I believe that there is an emergency call point in the reception of the building that students can use to inform the control room of a false alarm. Also, if there are members of staff on duty at the time, they would also be able to contact the control room and inform them of the false alarm.

I've tried emailing UNITE myself to request either an alternative or consideration of using an 03 number which would be cheaper for students to call. I never got any reply, so the next course of action would be calling their switchboard directly and speaking to someone knowledgeable of the situation.

The rule creates an inappropriate incentive that should cause some concern.

If an alarm sounds, it may be true or false; any student would have to contribute to an uncancelled false alarm. So there's an incentive for any student to cancel the alarm even if it's a true one. After all, there's no disincentive for cancelling a true alarm.

Indeed, the students should make their own rule to eliminate the possibility of being charged. Anyone should cancel the alarm immediately on it sounding (using a pay-as-you-go mobile perhaps). Then, in due course, it will be apparent if the alarm was true. Someone can then dial 999.

Perhaps one should try to establish whether the threat of a fine is actually meant to be applied with common sense against clearly irresponsible behaviour, e.g. setting off alarms deliberately as a prank and then claiming it was an accidental false alarm.

(Or perhaps students are different these days!)


03 is now a little more widely used than was the case when this issue was raised in the other thread. As mobile use is widespread amongst students and the negative effects of revenue sharing numbers are seen most strongly with mobile tariffs, one might look to the student community for a strong body of campaigners for users of non-geographic numbers that they are required to call to switch to 03.

(Or perhaps students are different these days!)

I've just tried the alternative, 0117 3027499, and it was answered by someone as "Control Room". So it appears to be working again.

Many thanks Dave-will pass this information on.  I am still waiting for a reply to my e-mail from Unite re why they dont use 03 number as students have to advise the control room using their own mobile phones, and the interpretation of the fire regulations which do appear to be flawed.  Will post reply when received.

I contacted UNITE several months ago to ask the same thing (regarding the possible use of an 03 number), but never received a response, so don't hold your breath on that front...

redant wrote on Oct 12^th, 2008 at 9:51am:

Many thanks Dave-will pass this information on.  I am still waiting for a reply to my e-mail from Unite re why they dont use 03 number as students have to advise the control room using their own mobile phones, and the interpretation of the fire regulations which do appear to be flawed.  Will post reply when received.

I advise that the 0845 is kept for backup, just in case the 0117 is not working. It may be needed in an emergency, so best to store both in the mobile phone.

I append a copy of email from unite as promised.      
                                         UNITE Group Plc
                                         Optimum House
                                         Clippers Quay
                                         Salford Quays
                                         Salford
                                         Manchester
                                                 M50 3XP

               15th October 2008                        


Dear Mr XXXXXX

In response to your query about the use of an 0845 number to call the UNITE Control Room, I would like to clarify the situation a little more.  In the Welcome Pack the customers receive on arrival it states that people should call the Control Room for emergency assistance and case of the Fire Alarm being activated in error. The control room number is 0845 1110021 and is for emergency and out of hours use.  There is also a call button located in Reception of the UNITE properties that customers can use to call the Control Room directly.

This is a number that UNITE have had for several years and when it was originally set up 0845 was charged as a local rate number. Today BT charge one flat rate for UK geographical numbers and as a general rule 0845 numbers are very slightly more expensive to call.  Furthermore, some mobile phone operators do not include them on their inclusive minute tariff, which means that the cost is around 20 pence per minute. The commercial benefit of an 0845 number is to pay for the line rental rather than to make a profit.

I hope this clarifies the background of the choice of an 0845 number for this purpose.

Yours Sincerely


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Regional Business Director
The UNITE Group

jgxenite your prediction re the 03 number is proved to be correct.   By the way the instructions above are NOT what I heard.

redant wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

Quote: The commercial benefit of an 0845 number is to pay for the line rental rather than to make a profit.

Students of economics may find this statement interesting.

My understanding is that profit is income minus expenditure. The charge for renting the line would represent additional expenditure if it were on a geographic or 03 number. Profit would thereby be reduced, if my understanding of mathematics is correct.

Doubtless most, if not all, of the income obtained by this company is used to meet costs that it incurs, including the cost of capital that is represented by dividends paid to shareholders out of profit.

Perhaps someone would like to explain the relevance of the quoted statement. What on earth has "profit" got to do with the point at issue, which is the cost incurred by callers.

redant wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

This is a number that UNITE have had for several years and when it was originally set up 0845 was charged as a local rate number. Today BT charge one flat rate for UK geographical numbers and as a general rule 0845 numbers are very slightly more expensive to call.  Furthermore, some mobile phone operators do not include them on their inclusive minute tariff, which means that the cost is around 20 pence per minute. The commercial benefit of an 0845 number is to pay for the line rental rather than to make a profit.

0845 numbers are very slightly more expensive to call? Of course, at certain times of day, it's now cheaper to call 0845 on a BT line. However, that's totally irrelevant as BT phones aren't available to students in this accommodation. I doubt they'd be allowed to install a landline even if they wanted to! If I remember correctly, there are no in-room phones at all, so students rely on using a mobile. So the entire statement about the cost is meaningless.

As for "commercial benefit", how about at £1000s they take from the students each year in the form of rent? Surely these should pay for all those little home comforts such as a fire alarm system, rather than paying for them through stealth charges?

jrawle wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 11:04pm:

redant wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:24pm: This is a number that UNITE have had for several years and when it was originally set up 0845 was charged as a local rate number. Today BT charge one flat rate for UK geographical numbers and as a general rule 0845 numbers are very slightly more expensive to call.  Furthermore, some mobile phone operators do not include them on their inclusive minute tariff, which means that the cost is around 20 pence per minute. The commercial benefit of an 0845 number is to pay for the line rental rather than to make a profit. 0845 numbers are very slightly more expensive to call? Of course, at certain times of day, it's now cheaper to call 0845 on a BT line. However, that's totally irrelevant as BT phones aren't available to students in this accommodation. I doubt they'd be allowed to install a landline even if they wanted to! If I remember correctly, there are no in-room phones at all, so students rely on using a mobile. So the entire statement about the cost is meaningless. As for "commercial benefit", how about at £1000s they take from the students each year in the form of rent? Surely these should pay for all those little home comforts such as a fire alarm system, rather than paying for them through stealth charges?

I was going to say what jrawle has said; what's the point in mentioning charges from a BT line? How many students have been allowed to install a BT line?

We should also consider that the costs made by the telephone provider of this 0845 number charges upto five times the cost had it been a 01/02/03 number. So it's not surprising that providers other than BT have pushed up the price of 0845 calls above that of a "local" call.

Quote:

Furthermore, some mobile phone operators do not include them on their inclusive minute tariff...

Some?! What planet do these people live on? How about all, each, and every phone operator!

Martin.

Dave wrote on Oct 11^th, 2008 at 8:21pm:

I've just tried the alternative, 0117 3027499, and it was answered by someone as "Control Room". So it appears to be working again.

But will it still be working when someone burns some toast at 2am.................. ::)

On a more serious note there must surely be an official complaint process with the university authorities (who will have given the contract to Unite on the university property management in the first place) that can be followed.

If I was a student I would involve the local student union and local press on this and then try to reach some sort of deadlock with the university and find out if there is a ombudsman who can investigate such an issue.  Any ombudsman worth their salt ought to find against this kind of use of an 03 phone number.