I notice that a couple of posts that NGMsGhost posted yesterday has been taken down by the owners/moderators. This is a great shame as they (the posts) elequontly summed up what several of us have been banging on about for some time. I wonder why it was felt that NGMsGhost was not allowed to express his thoughts here. I think answers should be made here on this section and not in a private message, so that all those who were fortunate to have read his posts can understand why they were taken down.

I always have understood that this forum was to help folk to find alternative numbers to the expensive 08 numbers that are listed. I for my part have tried to help find these numbers and have had a great amount of satisfaction in helping others to achieve this.

I have also enjoyed the friendly banter that has existed and also for the constructive advice that has been given.

What I have objected to and indeed I withdrew from the site for a few weeks earlier in the year, is the nonsensical, patronising, humiliating and ridiculous statements that have been put out by a certain member who contradicts for the sake of contradicting. I  and others are not too sure what his causes are and one must wonder what his motives are for coming on to this site, when everybody here is opposed to the 08 rip offs and he seems to condone it in certain instances.

I have said before elsewhere, that we all owe Dave an huge debt of gratitude for all the work and advice he puts in to the site and especially for maintaining the database.

It would be a great shame if one individual was to jeopardise all that hard work that he has given over the years.

I hope NGMsGhost's posts are going to be restored, however I fear that will not happen and fully expect this post to be taken down as well.

How do we contact you via the "Contact Us" on the homepage, if it comes back with the following, rather than "message sent", or similar.


Quote:

There were problems with your submission. This form was used from an unauthorized server! () This may be through no fault of your own and is probably not immediately correctable. Please come back and try again later.

What about a dedicated forum for additions/changes/deletions from the database?  I mention this as the second unverified number for Concept-it is a private house!!

Peter2010 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 12:36pm:

How do we contact you via the "Contact Us" on the homepage, if it comes back with the following, rather than "message sent", or similar. Quote: There were problems with your submission. This form was used from an unauthorized server! () This may be through no fault of your own and is probably not immediately correctable. Please come back and try again later. What about a dedicated forum for additions/changes/deletions from the database?  I mention this as the second unverified number for Concept-it is a private house!!

Hello and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

Sorry for the problem you're experiencing with the contact page, I will make site admin aware of this issue.

In the mean time, can you drop me an e-mail to dave {at} saynoto0870.com with the number in question and I will remove it immediately. Thanks.  :)

I have a suggestion... change the site name to SAY NO TO 08. The reason I say this is: A) there are several other 08 numbers, therefore it would reflect the issue of non-geographic telephone numbers more accurately than the present name; and B) Most landline companies now include calls to 0870 in their packages, therefore the general public might look at the name of this site and think "So what? 0870 numbers aren't that much of a problem any more, are they?"

I know SAY NO TO 08 doesn't rhyme as the present name does, but it is more accurate and somewhat snappier.

Trenod wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 6:05pm:

I have a suggestion... change the site name to SAY NO TO 08. The reason I say this is: A) there are several other 08 numbers, therefore it would reflect the issue of non-geographic telephone numbers more accurately than the present name; and B) Most landline companies now include calls to 0870 in their packages, therefore the general public might look at the name of this site and think "So what? 0870 numbers aren't that much of a problem any more, are they?"

I agree that the focus of the campaign has now moved away from 0870 numbers towards 0844 and 0845 numbers especially. Largely as a result of this campaign, the process that facilitated revenue sharing on 0870 numbers was removed last year, although sadly many call providers have failed to pass on the savings.

I suggest that the name of the campaign be broadened so as to encompass many other telecommunications unconsumer-friendly practices, and as such I registered "fairtelecoms" as my Twitter name.

Dave wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 7:11pm:

Trenod wrote on Sep 23rd, 2010 at 6:05pm: I have a suggestion... change the site name to SAY NO TO 08. The reason I say this is: A) there are several other 08 numbers, therefore it would reflect the issue of non-geographic telephone numbers more accurately than the present name; and B) Most landline companies now include calls to 0870 in their packages, therefore the general public might look at the name of this site and think "So what? 0870 numbers aren't that much of a problem any more, are they?" I agree that the focus of the campaign has now moved away from 0870 numbers towards 0844 and 0845 numbers especially. Largely as a result of this campaign, the process that facilitated revenue sharing on 0870 numbers was removed last year, although sadly many call providers have failed to pass on the savings. I suggest that the name of the campaign be broadened so as to encompass many other telecommunications unconsumer-friendly practices, and as such I registered "fairtelecoms" as my Twitter name.

I agree with the suggestion to amend the name to something more in line with Fair Telecoms, it makes more sense.

:)

We can then continue the compaign to educate companies/Govt departments on the fairer way forward, unlike the "lies" provided by the likes of NEG.

:)

I think 'Fair Telecoms' is even more misleading than 'Say No to 0870'. It doesn't mention the non-geographic number issue at all!

I'm with Dave on the "change in the focus" of the use of 087x and 084x - the idea used to be good (for companies who wanted to hide their geographical location, or those with multiple offices as destinations for the calls, dependent upon location.  However, with calls to all 08's and 05's being excluded from mobile call-plans, I feel the days of the non-geo number are numbered.

Anyway, back to the question in hand; what do we rename the site to?  Everybody knows us as Saynoto0870 - why change that?  My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to register www.saynoto08xx.com and saynoto05xx.com, then put redirects on both sites to this one.  At the end of the day it all comes down to the old addage "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

Peter2010 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2010 at 1:07am:

At the end of the day it all comes down to the old addage "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

For what it is worth, I agree with that

Trenod wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:33pm:

I think 'Fair Telecoms' is even more misleading than 'Say No to 0870'. It doesn't mention the non-geographic number issue at all!

We have already had one name which has been outgrown for two reasons:
1. The removal of support for revenue sharing (i.e. removal of subsidy or premiums passed covertly to number users), largely as a result of this campaign.
2. Organisations moving to other covert premium numbers, most notably 0845 and 0844, but also 0871.

The practice of covert premium numbers is patently unfair to consumers, as are other practices which fall outside the non-geographic phone number sphere. For example, the way in which reverse-charged premium rate SMS text messages permit organisations to steal from victims via their mobile phones and the continued toleration of silent calls.

A campaign for fair telecoms would be calling for the end to these types of rip-offs. Thus, I propose the new name be "Fair Telecoms" or "Campaign for Fair Telecoms".



Peter2010 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2010 at 1:07am:

I'm with Dave on the "change in the focus" of the use of 087x and 084x - the idea used to be good (for companies who wanted to hide their geographical location, or those with multiple offices as destinations for the calls, dependent upon location.  However, with calls to all 08's and 05's being excluded from mobile call-plans, I feel the days of the non-geo number are numbered. Anyway, back to the question in hand; what do we rename the site to?  Everybody knows us as Saynoto0870 - why change that?  My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to register www.saynoto08xx.com and saynoto05xx.com, then put redirects on both sites to this one.  At the end of the day it all comes down to the old addage "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

I totally disagree and could never be part of a campaign to say no to all 05xx and 08xx numbers. There are two distinct issues with two distinct causes for high costs for ringing these numbers:

Issue	Reason for higher call charges	Cause
Number ranges such as 0844 and 0845 (and previously 0870) that pass subsidy to receivers (users), via their telephone provider.	Payment of the subsidy to number users.	The choice of users to take subsidy from callers.
Other 05xx and 08xx non-geographic numbers that do not pass subsidy to the receiver.	Some originating providers choose to retail at a higher rate to normal numbers.	Originating providers setting the higher call rates - they retain the premiums.

I believe that the campaign objective for the latter-class should be focused on getting the providers in question to reduce their charges rather than getting them abolished.

We have already suceeded in getting 03 numbers introduced, for which the rules on call charging apply to all providers. There is the possibility that similar rules could be introduced for other number ranges and I believe this to be a realistic campaign objective.

Sometimes a name change can cause a lot of damage to the brand itself, even after a lot of advertising and promotional work is done on it's behalf

Everybody who is interested in the cause seems to know the name SAYNOTO0870.COM and I just wonder if a name change (even though the name might be out of date now) would be harmful to the site.

Having said all that, I could well be completely wrong and a name like Dave suggested may bring in more new members. A bit of a gamble in knowing what to do for the best.

Dave wrote on Sep 24^th, 2010 at 11:38am:

The practice of covert premium numbers is patently unfair to consumers, as are other practices which fall outside the non-geographic phone number sphere. For example, the way in which reverse-charged premium rate SMS text messages permit organisations to steal from victims via their mobile phones and the continued toleration of silent calls.

If you're proposing that the website cover a wider remit than the issue of non-geographic numbers, then I suppose 'Fair Telecoms' would be a fair title. But you didn't say so originally.

There are plenty of unfair matters in telecoms. For example, BT and its copycat rivals moving its off-peak calling time back an hour (having been 6pm since time immemorial) penalises workers, BT making a profit on non-direct debit payments (including one-off bank transfers) and paper billing penalises the elderly, whole-minute billing and connection charges penalise everyone who isn't on a calling plan, etc... These could all be covered in the relaunched site - as long as the NGN issue isn't marginalised.

Trenod wrote on Sep 24^th, 2010 at 5:51pm:

There are plenty of unfair matters in telecoms. For example, BT and its copycat rivals moving its off-peak calling time back an hour (having been 6pm since time immemorial) penalises workers, BT making a profit on non-direct debit payments (including one-off bank transfers) and paper billing penalises the elderly, whole-minute billing and connection charges penalise everyone who isn't on a calling plan, etc... These could all be covered in the relaunched site - as long as the NGN issue isn't marginalised.

I do not believe that the site should be an 'anti-one-particular-provider'. "Unfair" practices frequently involve many providers, including whole minute billing and the replacement of sole minimum charges with call set-up fees (and whole minute billings) which have been introduced in order to quietly inflate call charges.

Dave wrote on Sep 25^th, 2010 at 5:24pm:

I do not believe that the site should be an 'anti-one-particular-provider'. "Unfair" practices frequently involve many providers, including whole minute billing and the replacement of sole minimum charges with call set-up fees (and whole minute billings) which have been introduced in order to quietly inflate call charges.

I know, Dave, I only quoted BT because they're still effectively the market leader in telecoms: in other words, when *they* introduce 'stealth' charges, the other providers usually follow suit. It allows the others to hike their prices while still claiming to be (only just) cheaper than BT!

The proposed "Campaign for Fair Telecoms" (C4 FT ?) is a worthwhile and legitimate cause.

SayNoTo0870 is a website which offers alternative numbers for those who wish to avoid calling expensive numbers. It has an associated open bulletin board where related issues are discussed. It has no particular campaigning agenda, other than that which is implicit in the purpose of the database of alternatives and the name.

I believe that if an organised Campaign for Fair Telecoms were to be established it must firstly determine and declare a specific prioritised campaigning agenda and its position on specific relevant issues. It must then seek to promote its agenda, with the agreement of supporters and sponsors.

Such a campaign would also need to resolve its relationship with independent campaigners such as myself and commercial operations (e.g. websites supported by advertising) such as SayNoTo0870. Public recognition for a properly constituted formal campaigning organisation would demand either wide public membership, sponsorship from recognisable bodies, or both. A suitable means of covering expenses incurred would also need to be found. Sponsors and members may demand some role in determining policy. Those making donations would undoubtedly demand accountability.

Much could be achieved by bluff and deception. A small group, or a single individual, could easily use the name of an organisation without having any proper representative status. The propriety and sustainability of such an approach would have to be considered carefully.

I have long declared my recognition of the possible need for such a campaign group and my readiness to support those who wish to take on the task of establishing something of this sort.

SayNoTo0870.com is a privately owned website sustained by advertising, voluntary effort and donations from the owner. It offers the potential for many independent spin-off operations, such as the smartphone apps and other websites which use its data. There is no reason why it could not also spawn an independent campaign group, perhaps led by contributors to its discussion forum. All of these independent enterprises share the benefit of common public recognition. A "Campaign for Fair Telecoms" could seek to gain from that, or not, as it may choose.

For myself, I see no potential for such a campaign being able to buy-out SayNoTo0870.com, nor choosing to have a website that is financed by advertising, potentially (and most likely) by those whom it seeks to attack. A close relationship with SayNoTo0870.com, including a reciprocal cross promotion arrangement, is probably the most that could be expected.

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If any part of this contribution is though unsuitable for publication in the forum, I am content for the offending elements to be redacted. If necessary, I will be happy to re-draft sections to omit any comment deemed unsuitable for publication.