SAYNOTO0870.COM
https://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi
Main Forum >> Geographical Numbers Chat >> How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
https://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1393671431

Message started by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 10:57am

Title: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 10:57am
I can't be the first to ask this question, but I've looked and can't see. Is there a golden idiot-rule here? Many don't realsie, not all 07XXX are charged out at premium mobile rates, but at the still higher 07XXX NGN rates.

A 07405 number i dailled today cost me £3.20 for 14 minutes. It took me ten minutes to work out via my provider the tariff for 07405.
Now it used to be easy, 070XX was a follow-me number (at 50p a minute) and everythign else a mobile. This is not true today. The telcos bury the information with confusing charge bands, is there an idiot-rule or if not a database of premium-premium NGN 07XXX numbers?


Maybe in the form of a XLS or comma/tab delim file to do a quick, "Is it a mobile or not a mobile" looksee?

I can find plenty of places listing NGN numbers, but these include 0300s 0800s et al. None listing the extra-extra premium numbers as distinct form std. 07XXX

Is there a web site lsiting these? I know ofcom would have us believe they are simplifying it, biut in the meantime, how do you tell?

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 1st, 2014 at 1:41pm
I got the following information from Ofcom:-

070x  Personal number
076x  RadioPaging number

075x  Mobile
077x  Mobile
078x  Mobile
079x  Mobile

Not sure what 074x numbers are.

However, things also get complicated by the fact that each OCP (Originating Communications Provider) can charge what they like for these calls and even exclude certain number from a range and charge differently for that.

For example, if an unusual amount of traffic (ie calls) goes to a specific number 077x then the OCP may determine that this number is not used for calling a personal mobile and in fact maybe a dial-through provider and as such may then exclude that as being a mobile number and charge differently for it.

I use Magenta Systems CodeLook for looking up number ranges and which network the number was originally** allocated to.

I don't know how accurate this information is.  Maybe other members may have a better accurate lookup.


** Due to number portability it's not easy to know which network a number is allocated to now so any information about an operator is considered to be the originating operator (ie the operator that originally requested the number range from Ofcom)

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 1st, 2014 at 2:01pm
Actually looking at that Ofcom page,  this Excel (.xls) sheet produced by Ofcom states which network the range originally belonged to.

This could be used to double check that Magenta Systems CodeLookup information is correct.

I see now that 07405 belongs to LycaMobile and is charged, according to BT, as FW7 WiFi Services.

I googled FW7 WiFi Service and found page from TalkTalk forum where it states

Quote:
These numbers are indeed routed differently. If you call them your call is actually dialling into a server which is linked with other worldwide servers owned by the network you are calling. Thus Lycamobile and truphone can offer cheap rates in selected countries they are based in. So in uk with its server on o2. You actually physically roam on them. a landline call is sent through their servers and actually looks like is routed via some sort of voip so will explain why it shows unavailable on my caller display also why talktalk rates it as a wi fi number that the call routes to a server rather than mobile company


Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 1st, 2014 at 3:35pm

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 1:41pm:
I use Magenta Systems CodeLook for looking up number ranges and which network the number was originally** allocated to.

I don't know how accurate this information is.  Maybe other members may have a better accurate lookup.


** Due to number portability it's not easy to know which network a number is allocated to now so any information about an operator is considered to be the originating operator (ie the operator that originally requested the number range from Ofcom)

The Ofcom link you provided is the source data.

Number portability is irrelevant in cases of charging except where the call is being made from the donor operator or recipient operator (the former is the operator whose number block it is and the latter is the one where the call is terminated).

This is because calls are passed to the operator whose number block it is on, except in the two circumstances outlined. The industry decided not to have a central database of ported numbers (i.e. those that don't terminate on their native network) and so it is down to each operator to keep a database of numbers that have been ported in and a database of those ported out.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 1st, 2014 at 4:57pm
The National Telephone Number Plan defines 071 to 075 inclusive and 077 to 079 inclusive as being for the purpose of "Mobile Services".

Said term is defined thus:

Quote:
‘Mobile Service’ means a service consisting in the conveyance of Signals, by means of an Electronic Communications Network, where every Signal that is conveyed thereby has been, or is to be, conveyed through the agency of Wireless Telegraphy to or from Apparatus designed or adapted to be capable of being used while in motion.

Most mobile numbers are allocated to "3", EE (Orange and T-Mobile), O2 and Vodafone. However, some are allocated to "other" providers, which evidently are Mobile Services.

O2 maintains a list of what it calls 07 non-mobile and call forwarding services. Whilst 07405 doesn't feature, quite a few others do.

The 3 Price Guide gives a list of what it calls "Non Standard 07 numbers": 074060 / 074061 / 074062 / 074067 / 0740671 - 9 / 074176 / 074181 / 0741821 - 9 / 074185 / 074411 / 074413 / 074414 / 074515 / 075200 / 075201 / 075203 / 075204 / 075205 / 075206 / 075207 / 075208 / 075209 / 075370 / 075371 / 075373 / 075375 / 075376 / 075377 / 075378 / 075379 / 075580 / 075581 / 075582 / 075590 / 075591 / 075592 / 075593 / 075594 / 075595 / 075596 / 075597 / 075598 / 075599 / 075710 / 075718 / 075890 / 075891 / 075892 / 075893 / 075898 / 075899 / 077000 / 077001 / 077442 / 077443 / 077444 / 077445 / 077446 / 077447 / 077448 / 077449 / 0775520 / 0775522 / 0775530 / 0775532-5 / 0775539 / 0775540-6 / 0775548-9 / 0775550 / 0775555 / 078220 / 078221 / 078223 / 078224 / 078225 / 078226 / 078227 / 078229 / 078644 / 78722 / 078727 / 078730 / 078744 / 078745 / 078920 / 078922 / 078925 / 078931 / 078933 / 078938 / 078939 / 079111 / 079112 / 079117 / 079118 / 079245 / 079246 / 079780 / 079781 / 079782 / 079783 / 079784 / 079785 / 079786 / 079788 / 079789

Out of interest, are these two the same?

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bigjohn on Mar 1st, 2014 at 5:35pm
Normally when you see a complaint about being charged to call a 07404/5 number its a T-Mob customer.T-Mob  had a long run in with Lyca and others over expensive termination charges and use to charge for calls to these and other numbering ranges. This was resolved contracts taken out after 1/2/2012 include them in inclusive minutes and contracts taken out before dont  see:

http://help.ee.co.uk/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1016&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&segment=Consumer&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=538789&CUSTOM_BRAND=EE

Other networks use to and still do include Lyca Numbers in inclusive minutes.

A lot of these type of numbers tend to be used for call forwarding to get cheaper intl calls. All networks tend to exclude numbers used for this purpose.

T-Mobile still bar such  numbers used for call forwarding purposes as do Orange see http://studio.orange.co.uk/service_plans/paymonthly/075890m.html

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:07pm
It would have been a lot easier if Ofcom would have specifically said certain number ranges are actual personal mobile numbers and certain other range is this WiFi service (as defined by BT).

It seems that 074x numbers could be either.  I do hope it's just 074 and not other common mobile ranges like 075x, 078x, 079x  ;)

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bigjohn on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:14pm

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:07pm:
It would have been a lot easier if Ofcom would have specifically said certain number ranges are actual personal mobile numbers and certain other range is this WiFi service (as defined by BT).

It seems that 074x numbers could be either.  I do hope it's just 074 and not other common mobile ranges like 075x, 078x, 079x  ;)


When did Ofcom make things easier. :)

Some 075/078/079 numbers are already blocked when used for cheap call purposes.

EG See www.bollywoodtelecom.com whose  07822 151376 and 07924 897599 numbers are charged by 3.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:34pm
It's horrible. There is no idiot rule here.
I've just put those two lists together and whilst there is duplication they are not the same. I will try to post the list as one.

But I've tried. I'm a bit geeky. This board won't accept my HTML. I will post a standard tab file thus...

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:43pm
070      Premium NGN Number
07405      Premium NGN Number
074060      Premium NGN Number
074061      Premium NGN Number
074062      Premium NGN Number
074063      Premium NGN Number
074064      Premium NGN Number
074065      Premium NGN Number
074066      Premium NGN Number
074067      Premium NGN Number
0740671      Premium NGN Number
0740672      Premium NGN Number
0740673      Premium NGN Number
0740674      Premium NGN Number
0740675      Premium NGN Number
0740676      Premium NGN Number
0740677      Premium NGN Number
0740678      Premium NGN Number
0740679      Premium NGN Number
074068      Premium NGN Number
074069      Premium NGN Number
074171      Premium NGN Number
074172      Premium NGN Number
074176      Premium NGN Number
074177      Premium NGN Number
074179      Premium NGN Number
074181      Premium NGN Number
074181      Premium NGN Number
074182      Premium NGN Number
0741821      Premium NGN Number
0741822      Premium NGN Number
0741823      Premium NGN Number
0741824      Premium NGN Number
0741825      Premium NGN Number
0741826      Premium NGN Number
0741827      Premium NGN Number
0741828      Premium NGN Number
0741829      Premium NGN Number
074185      Premium NGN Number
074186      Premium NGN Number
074188      Premium NGN Number
074390      Premium NGN Number
074391      Premium NGN Number
074409      Premium NGN Number
074410      Premium NGN Number
074411      Premium NGN Number
074412      Premium NGN Number
074413      Premium NGN Number
074414      Premium NGN Number
074415      Premium NGN Number
074417      Premium NGN Number
074418      Premium NGN Number
074419      Premium NGN Number
074515      Premium NGN Number
074516      Premium NGN Number
074517      Premium NGN Number
074572      Premium NGN Number
074574      Premium NGN Number
074577      Premium NGN Number
074578      Premium NGN Number
074579      Premium NGN Number
074580      Premium NGN Number
074581      Premium NGN Number
074582      Premium NGN Number
074583      Premium NGN Number
074584      Premium NGN Number
074588      Premium NGN Number
074653      Premium NGN Number
074655      Premium NGN Number
075200      Premium NGN Number
075201      Premium NGN Number
075203      Premium NGN Number
075204      Premium NGN Number
075205      Premium NGN Number
075206      Premium NGN Number
075207      Premium NGN Number
075208      Premium NGN Number
075209      Premium NGN Number
075370      Premium NGN Number
075371      Premium NGN Number
075373      Premium NGN Number
075375      Premium NGN Number
075376      Premium NGN Number
075377      Premium NGN Number
075378      Premium NGN Number
075379      Premium NGN Number
075580      Premium NGN Number
075581      Premium NGN Number
075582      Premium NGN Number
075590      Premium NGN Number
075591      Premium NGN Number
075592      Premium NGN Number
075593      Premium NGN Number
075594      Premium NGN Number
075595      Premium NGN Number
075596      Premium NGN Number
075597      Premium NGN Number
075598      Premium NGN Number
075599      Premium NGN Number
075710      Premium NGN Number
075718      Premium NGN Number
075890      Premium NGN Number
075891      Premium NGN Number
075892      Premium NGN Number
075893      Premium NGN Number
075898      Premium NGN Number
075899      Premium NGN Number
077000      Premium NGN Number
077001      Premium NGN Number
077442      Premium NGN Number
077443      Premium NGN Number
077444      Premium NGN Number
077445      Premium NGN Number
077446      Premium NGN Number
077447      Premium NGN Number
077448      Premium NGN Number
077449      Premium NGN Number
077530      Premium NGN Number
077552      Premium NGN Number
0775520      Premium NGN Number
0775522      Premium NGN Number
077553      Premium NGN Number
0775530      Premium NGN Number
0775532      Premium NGN Number
0775533      Premium NGN Number
0775534      Premium NGN Number
0775535      Premium NGN Number
0775539      Premium NGN Number
077554      Premium NGN Number
0775540      Premium NGN Number
0775541      Premium NGN Number
0775542      Premium NGN Number
0775543      Premium NGN Number
0775544      Premium NGN Number
0775545      Premium NGN Number
0775546      Premium NGN Number
0775548      Premium NGN Number
0775549      Premium NGN Number
077555      Premium NGN Number
0775550      Premium NGN Number
0775555      Premium NGN Number
078220      Premium NGN Number
078221      Premium NGN Number
078222      Premium NGN Number
078223      Premium NGN Number
078224      Premium NGN Number
078225      Premium NGN Number
078226      Premium NGN Number
078227      Premium NGN Number
078229      Premium NGN Number
078644      Premium NGN Number
078722      Premium NGN Number
078727      Premium NGN Number
078730      Premium NGN Number
078744      Premium NGN Number
078745      Premium NGN Number
078920      Premium NGN Number
078922      Premium NGN Number
078925      Premium NGN Number
078930      Premium NGN Number
078931      Premium NGN Number
078933      Premium NGN Number
078938      Premium NGN Number
078939      Premium NGN Number
079110      Premium NGN Number
079111      Premium NGN Number
079112      Premium NGN Number
079117      Premium NGN Number
079118      Premium NGN Number
079245      Premium NGN Number
079246      Premium NGN Number
079780      Premium NGN Number
079781      Premium NGN Number
079782      Premium NGN Number
079783      Premium NGN Number
079784      Premium NGN Number
079785      Premium NGN Number
079786      Premium NGN Number
079787      Premium NGN Number
079788      Premium NGN Number
079789      Premium NGN Number

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:47pm
The above is an amalgam of info. Premium-premium raters Of course your network may include some of these as std mobiles with associated std premium mobile rates. ie not premium-premium. But be suspicious of the above.

Therein lies the problem..

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bigjohn on Mar 1st, 2014 at 7:00pm
Look here http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1301138312 and your see their was a discussion about them yonks ago.

Are you on T-Mobile by any chance.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 1st, 2014 at 7:12pm
Oh jeezz, it has been covered then.

Fool.

My providers. Virgin, T Mobile & 3 Variously.

If I look on the list on that other thread, my own 07742 number originally with 02 is also a super-premium rate to some callers. Now I can assure you it has no porting or suchlike and never did. There is no winning here?

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 1st, 2014 at 11:42pm

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:07pm:
It would have been a lot easier if Ofcom would have specifically said certain number ranges are actual personal mobile numbers and certain other range is this WiFi service (as defined by BT).

What is the difference between these numbers on which this distinction could have been made?

It is only in recent years that, from landlines, mobile rates to the five main networks have fallen into line. This is entirely voluntary. What is behind other numbers not doing so? Is it down to higher termination charges or is it down to call retailers (OCPs) just imposing retail premiums? Or is there another reason?



bbb_uk wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:07pm:
It seems that 074x numbers could be either.  I do hope it's just 074 and not other common mobile ranges like 075x, 078x, 079x  ;)

The only possible significance is that 074xxx numbers are generally newer-allocated prefixes. Maybe there are more of these "other" operators springing up in more recent years.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 4:34am
This posting is left empty intentially.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 4:35am
The list of "Premium NGN Number" prefixes simply indicates where it that prefix has been found to be charged at a premium by at least one originating operator. It would perhaps be helpful to know which are consistently higher and with which providers and which aren't.

It would also be useful to know what the termination charges are like. The BT Wholesale Carrier Price List gives rates BT pays for termination:

Prefix Communications provider Termination rate(s)
07405 Lycamobile UK Limited[1] 01/12-06/12: 3.015 | 07/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13 onwards: 0.848
074060 Cheers International Sales Limited 02/10-03/14: 10 | 04/14 onwards: 0.844
074061 Cheers International Sales Limited 02/10-03/14: 10 | 04/14 onwards: 0.844
074062 Cheers International Sales Limited 02/10-03/14: 10 | 04/14 onwards: 0.844
074063 Vortex Telecom Ltd[1] 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13 onwards: 0.848
074064 Titanium Limited[2] 05/10-05/12: 10 | 05/12-01/14: 1.5 | 02/14 onwards: 0.848
074065 Telecom2 Ltd 07/10 onwards: 10
074066 24 Seven Communications Ltd 12/11-11/12: 3.015 | 12/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13 onwards: 0.848
074067 TG Support Limited 01/12-05/12: 3.015 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13 onwards: 0.848
074068 08Direct Limited[3] 01/12-05/12: 3.015 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13 onwards: 0.848
074069 CardBoardFish unknown
074171 CardBoardFish unknown
074172 UPA Telecom Ltd[3] 01/12-05/12: 3.015 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13 onwards: 0.848
074176 Proton Telecom Limited[1] 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13 onwards: 0.848
074177 Rexcom Tech Limited[1] 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13 onwards: 0.848
074179 Interact Solutions Limited[3] 01/12-05/12: 3.015 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 03/13 onwards: 0.848
074181 Bellingham Telecommunications Limited[3] 02/11 onwards: 10
074182 TG Support Limited 01/12-05/12: 3.015 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13 onwards: 0.848
074185 Telecom North America Mobile Inc[3] 06/11-03/13: 2.984
074186 Ace Call Limited[3] 08/13 onwards: 0.848
074188 Eclipse Tel Limited[1] 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/12: 1.5 | 04/13: 0.848
074390 TalkTalk Communications Limited 05/11-05/12: 2.984 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13: 0.848
074391 TalkTalk Communications Limited unknown
074409 Cloud9 Communications Limited 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13: 0.848
074410 Sound Advertising Ltd unknown
074411 Andrews & Arnold Ltd[4] 07/11-05/12: 2.66 | 05/12: 1.5
074412 JSC Ingenium (UK) Limited unknown
074413 Stour Marine Limited[1] 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13: 0.848
074414 Ofcom says not allocated 06/11-09/11: 10
074415 Synectiv Ltd unknown
074417 Synectiv Ltd unknown
074418 Core Telecom Limited 06/11-04/13: 2.984 | 05/13: 0.848


continued…

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 4:39am
…continued

Prefix Communications provider Termination rate(s)
074419 Voxbone SA 10/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13: 0.848
074515 Premium O Limited unknown
074516 UK Broadband Limited unknown
074517 UK Broadband Limited unknown
074572 Marathon Telecom Limited unknown
074574 Voicetec Systems Ltd unknown
074577 Spacetel UK Ltd unknown
074578 CardBoardFish unknown
074579 CardBoardFish unknown
074580 SSE Energy Supply Limited unknown
074581 SSE Energy Supply Limited unknown
074582 Premium Routing GmbH unknown
074583 Virgin Mobile Telecoms Limited unknown
074584 Airwave Solutions Ltd[1] 09/13 onwards: 0.848
074588 Limitless Mobile Ltd unknown
074653 Compatel Ltd unknown
074655 Netfuse Telecom Ltd unknown
075200 Ofcom says not allocated 01/12-03/12: 3.015 | 04/12-05/12: 2.053 | 05/12-03/13: 1.5 | 04/13: 0.848
075201 BT OnePhone Limited unknown
075203 Subhan Universal Limited[5] 12/11 onwards: 2.984
075204 Core Communication Services Ltd 11/07 onwards: day=9.08 / eve=8.204 / wkend=2.51
075205 Esendex Limited unknown
075206 Tismi BV 08/11-05/12: 2.984 | 05/12-04/13: 1.5 | 05/13: 0.848
075207 (aq) Limited trading as aql[4] 06/11-05/12: 2.66 | 05/12: 1.5


I stopped due to the time it was taking to compile!

In the following instances the Communications Provider to which the prefix is allocated differs from the inter-connecting Network Operator given in the BT Wholesale Carrier Price List:
[1] Vodafone (CW) Limited
[2] UK Number Store Limited
[3] Core Telecom Limited
[4] Telephony Services Limited
[5] Ayat Solutions Limited

Coloured number prefixes indicate the following:

green — termination rate is already ~0.84ppm
amber — termination rate is higher than 0.84ppm, but is listed as dropping to ~0.84ppm by 04/14
red — termination rate is higher than 0.84ppm and is currently not listed as dropping any further
black — unknown, or apparently no longer allocated


Those which are "unknown" do not appear in the BT Wholesale Carrier Price List Section B1: Telephony Part 1.02.1. I wonder if either they are covered in a different Part, or more likely that they are not set-up to receive voice calls.

It should be emphasised here that these are the rates BT pays for termination. We have no idea how much other operators pay, although BT may be used as a transit operator for those OCPs which don't have a direct connection to some TCPs.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 4:51am
I don't think that the fact that quite a few of these have dropped to around 3ppm, followed by 1.5ppm and then 0.84ppm is a coincidence. There was a consultation a few years back on reductions to mobile termination rates and it is maybe worth looking back at it. It looks to me as if the outcome of that has been the reigning in of the operators' charges for termination, as I think the above suggests.

One question: are all of these numbers intended for private users? What made me wonder about this is the presence of "SSE Energy Supply Limited" prefixes. Might these be use for SIMs that are used for data purposes in smart meters? There are other applications where mobile data is required (no voice calls) such as road signs.

In such cases an originating communications provider could perhaps list the prefix as not being covered by a bundle simply because it isn't (but voice calls are never made to it either).

It would be helpful if someone in the know could indicate as to whether this is a possible explanation for the existance of some of these prefixes or not.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by 03700000000 on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 8:54am
The short answer to my question is, it's yet another Ofcom mess.... "Stick you finger in the air and whistle."

One of my providers [Virgin] does not even list the cost of calls to these extra premiium 07XXX prefix numbers. At least in the 30-40 mins readign all their tariff cards I couldn't find it.

It seems you dial, wait for the bill, and cough-up.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 10:09am

Dave wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 11:42pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 6:07pm:
It would have been a lot easier if Ofcom would have specifically said certain number ranges are actual personal mobile numbers and certain other range is this WiFi service (as defined by BT).
What is the difference between these numbers on which this distinction could have been made?
Some OCPs have found the distinction between these type of numbers but looking at your list, calls to 07405 have the same termination rate as an actual mobile so at least in this situation, it's mostly OCP's imposing higher retail rates especially for the larger OCP's.  Yes, the smaller OCPs may have to pay other third parties to carry the call but surely then if this is true these smaller OCPs also have to pay the same amount to carry call to actual "non-premium" mobile numbers surely?


Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 10:41am

Dave wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 4:51am:
One question: are all of these numbers intended for private users? What made me wonder about this is the presence of "SSE Energy Supply Limited" prefixes. Might these be use for SIMs that are used for data purposes in smart meters? There are other applications where mobile data is required (no voice calls) such as road signs.

In such cases an originating communications provider could perhaps list the prefix as not being covered by a bundle simply because it isn't (but voice calls are never made to it either).
I think you're right.  It looks like the 074580 range could well be used for smart meters but BT wouldn't anyhow would they if it's just used for data?

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bigjohn on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 11:02am
SSE Energy Supply are their phone wing
See: http://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/compare.htm?xid=67410&idx=ra&operator=9367

Possibly were going to start their own MVNO.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:13pm

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 10:09am:
Some OCPs have found the distinction between these type of numbers but looking at your list, calls to 07405 have the same termination rate as an actual mobile so at least in this situation, it's mostly OCP's imposing higher retail rates especially for the larger OCP's.  Yes, the smaller OCPs may have to pay other third parties to carry the call but surely then if this is true these smaller OCPs also have to pay the same amount to carry call to actual "non-premium" mobile numbers surely?

We have no idea on what basis 07405 was placed on the list of "Premium NGN Numbers" — a term which implies that the premium is part and parcel of the number. All other Lycamobile prefixes do not appear on that list.

I would suggest that the higher retail call prices that still prevail are a remnant of when the termination charges were higher than to the other "main" operators. While OCPs "could" reduce prices as termination rates have fallen they are profit-making companies, so if there is no pressure on them to do so then they won't. This, I believe, is what's happened.

If the reduction in termination charges is as a result of the initiative by the Regulator then maybe the next step, perhaps at some point in the future, is for it to introduce a requirement for all Mobile Service numbers to be charged inline with one another from all OCPs.

I note that, for example, while BT charges all fm bands the same, fw prefixes still attract a myriad of charges (07405 is fw7).

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:54pm

Dave wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:13pm:
If the reduction in termination charges is as a result of the initiative by the Regulator then maybe the next step, perhaps at some point in the future, is for it to introduce a requirement for all Mobile Service numbers to be charged inline with one another from all OCPs.
That is an idea and would provide consistency for all "mobile" numbers.

The problem, I can imagine will be, that OCPs will moan.  I remember when Ofcom thought about 03x numbers and linking them to geographical numbers (price wise) and OCPs moaned about Ofcom setting prices.  Ofcom managed to get away with that by stating they were just insisting 03x numbers get treated same price as geographical.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 7:10pm

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:54pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:13pm:
If the reduction in termination charges is as a result of the initiative by the Regulator then maybe the next step, perhaps at some point in the future, is for it to introduce a requirement for all Mobile Service numbers to be charged inline with one another from all OCPs.
That is an idea and would provide consistency for all "mobile" numbers.

The problem, I can imagine will be, that OCPs will moan.  I remember when Ofcom thought about 03x numbers and linking them to geographical numbers (price wise) and OCPs moaned about Ofcom setting prices.  Ofcom managed to get away with that by stating they were just insisting 03x numbers get treated same price as geographical.

The retail cost of calling different landline operators is the same, something which is entirely voluntary. The same goes for the most popularly-called mobile operators.

Ofcom has already laid the foundations in that termination rates have been brought into line. The OCPs could well have a case if this hadn't happened and I could not support a requirement for uniform retail prices when termination charges are all over the place.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian G on Mar 3rd, 2014 at 8:27am
The new Ofcom numberplan that comes into effect in June 2015 has in the allocations table an extra column headed 'tariff principles'. So far only the 030, 033, 034, 037, 080, 084, 087, 090, 091, 098, 116 and 118 entries are filled in. It's possible that new tariff rules covering calls to 07 numbers will eventually be introduced. Ofcom have already indicated they intend to review 070 and 076 numbers.

The many current pricing exceptions for various mobile and other 07 numbers make these as much a minefield as the current pricing policies for calling 084 and 087 numbers. Ofcom have moved (albeit very slowly) to fix many of the issues with 08 and 09 numbers. Here's hoping that robust measures will be considered for dealing with the retail pricing of calls to 07 numbers. Simplification is needed.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 3rd, 2014 at 7:51pm

Ian G wrote on Mar 3rd, 2014 at 8:27am:
..Ofcom have already indicated they intend to review 070..
Last time they reviewed 070 there was uproar from what must have been very few users of 070 numbers (in comparison to other number ranges) so nothing was done to stop the confusion of have personal number 070 begin similar to mobiles.

I know the likes of patientline, alarm companies that used 070 as contact numbers.

Last year I even saw a driving instructor school have a 070 as a contact number.  I thought that was bad as how many people will have have fallen victim to that and been charged a premium.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Mar 4th, 2014 at 1:10am
We must remember that when mobile phones came in off-net calls (that's calls to other networks) cost more than on-net calls (calls to the same network). Now the distinction is pretty much unheard of.

In respect of the Mobile Service numbers which some retailers impose a premium for calling, they are off-net calls.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by bbb_uk on Mar 4th, 2014 at 5:57pm

Dave wrote on Mar 4th, 2014 at 1:10am:
We must remember that when mobile phones came in off-net calls (that's calls to other networks) cost more than on-net calls (calls to the same network). Now the distinction is pretty much unheard of.
I remember those days.


Quote:
In respect of the Mobile Service numbers which some retailers impose a premium for calling, they are off-net calls.
That is also true but then these same retailers don't charge premiums for calling off-net calls now except for the odd number ranges.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Jun 27th, 2017 at 8:49pm

The issues discussed in this thread have been largely addressed by Ofcom in the intervening years, though the work is not yet entirely completed.


Ofcom has for many years imposed a cap on mobile termination rates and reduced it on an annual basis, usually on 1 April. The cap used to apply only to calls terminating on the main mobile networks. Other mobile providers were told to charge "fair and reasonable rates" but not all did so. Some of these were call-forwarding services where the high termination charge paid for provision of the service. Others were small mobile providers where imposing a high termination charge on incoming calls allowed that mobile provider to charge their own customers a lower rate for outgoing calls. The price to pay was that calls to these smaller providers were excluded from inclusive allowances when called from elsewhere.

Many years ago, LycaMobile was one of those with high termination rates. Calls to their numbers were non-inclusive from almost all providers. Even after they dropped their termination rates, other providers continued to treat their numbers as non-inclusive. Years later, some still do.


When the termination rate cap set by Ofcom dropped again in 2015 (this time unusually on 1 May) the cap was extended to cover all UK mobile numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079. In theory, from this point on, inclusive allowances should be covering all UK mobile numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079 but in practice this did not happen. There are a number of reasons for this.

UK landline and mobile providers have not, in general, updated their lists of excluded number ranges. In fact, some have lists that have remained largely unaltered for almost a decade. In some cases this indicates non-compliance with the termination rate cap by various mobile number rangeholders. In other cases, the termination rate has dropped but some providers have failed to notice the change and adjust their retail call charges, or have noticed it and are now profiteering on these calls.

In April 2017, Ofcom opened an investigation into a small number of mobile providers not complying with the cap on mobile termination rates.


The various MTR reductions mean that since 1 April 2016 the rates for calls to mobile numbers have been slightly lower than for calls to 03 numbers. The result of this is that most landline providers now routinely offer inclusive calls to mobile numbers in their "anytime" call plans. BT is the only major landline provider to not offer this. As noted above, not all UK mobile numbers are included in allowances. There are numerous exceptions detailed in the list of included number ranges.


Due to high termination rates, calls to mobile numbers in CI and IoM have been excluded from inclusive allowances when called from the UK. Authorities in each of those places have been reducing the maximum allowed termination rates, but lagging the UK changes.

The most recent work has seen the mandated reductions in CI and IoM termination rates being set on an accelerated path. These reductions mean that the CI and IoM termination rates are expected to be commensurate with UK termination rates in 2018.

Ofcom now proposes that from April 2018 onwards, the CI and IoM termination rates will be set by Ofcom and be set at the same rate as the UK termination rates.

By next year, we should reach the point where all numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079 are inclusive in call allowances from almost all landline and mobile providers.


Almost a decade ago, Ofcom started reviewing non-geographic numbers starting 03, 05, 070, 076, 08, 09, 116 and 118.

The largest chunk of work looked at 08, 09, 116 and 118 numbers and resulted in 080 and 116 numbers becoming free-to-caller from all landlines and mobiles and introduction of the "unbundled tariff" for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Another strand confirmed and reinforced that the rules for 03 numbers do not permit revenue sharing of any type, either with the called party or with the caller.

The 0500 range also came into focus, and was withdrawn from use on 5 June 2017. Existing users were offered the matching number starting 0808 5 and had been given three years to make the change.

The final piece of work covering numbers starting 055, 056, 070 and 076 is yet to be started. Hopefully, it will lead to getting rid of the 070 range. The fact that pagers are disappearing will free up the 076 range in the not too distant future. These factors should mean that eventually all numbers starting 07 are mobile numbers and all are included in allowances.

Finally, with very low usage a case could be made for removal of the 055 and 056 ranges - perhaps migrated to and merged with the 03 range.


The end result could be a very simple number plan and call charge regime.

Inclusive in allowances: 01, 02, 03, 07 ... thereafter a "standard" rate.

Free-to-caller: 080, 116.

Premium rate: 084, 087, 090, 091, 098, 118 ... with an additional "Service Charge".

This is perhaps still at least a couple of years away.


Some final tidying up might see the old 0908 and 0909 'adult' entertainment services ranges migrated to somewhere in the newer 098 allocation.

For a number of reasons it might make sense to migrate Guernsey, Isle of Man and Jersey mobile numbers to the 0761x, 0762x and 0763x ranges and condense the various mobile porting codes into the 0760xx ranges.

With declining usage, the final step might be closure of the 084 and 087 ranges.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by allegro on Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:13am
An excellent summary of the dark corners of UK phone charges.

But why on earth has it taken Ofcom so long to deal with obvious abuses such as 070, let alone 084 and 087.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Dave on Jun 30th, 2017 at 12:31pm

Ian01 wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 8:49pm:
… condense the various mobile porting codes into the 0760xx ranges.

What's a mobile porting code? And don't say "It's a code for porting mobiles". How does it work? Is it a temporary thing, whilst porting is taking place?

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Jun 30th, 2017 at 4:22pm


Dave wrote on Jun 30th, 2017 at 12:31pm:

Ian01 wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 8:49pm:
… condense the various mobile porting codes into the 0760xx ranges.

What's a mobile porting code? And don't say "It's a code for porting mobiles". How does it work? Is it a temporary thing, whilst porting is taking place?

See Ofcom's MPC file: http://static.ofcom.org.uk/static/numbering/#mpc

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by allegro on Jul 1st, 2017 at 6:15am
Is that a historic document? It also contans the the following incorrect info for 08 ranges:


Quote:
BT’s Standard Local Call Retail Price for BT customers (0845 XXX ranges)
BT’s Standard National Call Retail Price for BT customers (0870 XXX ranges)
Up to 5p - non internet (ranges 0844 2XX to 0844 9XX)
Up to 10p - non-internet (ranges 0871 2XX to 0871 9XX)

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Jul 1st, 2017 at 11:40am

That particular page is static. I am told a new version is awaiting publication.

The XLS files detailed on that page are updated weekly. The last line of each XLS file shows the date and time of update.

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Heinz on Jul 28th, 2017 at 5:19pm
I wonder why the use of the 06 range (earmarked by Ofcom so many years ago as a new home for 070 numbers) has not been implemented yet?  It appears it'd be a simple change with great benefits for the 'citizen consumer' (Ofcom's No.1 priority, they tell us).

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Jul 28th, 2017 at 10:50pm

I think the time is long past where there is a need for a range of numbers charged at premium rates, with non-transparent call charges, and where all of the additional call-handling and call-forwarding charges are loaded on to the caller. As call-forwarding is available on all other number ranges, the simplest thing would be for the 070 number range to be withdrawn from use.


Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm

Ofcom marches on with their reviews. Their latest consultation covering 070 numbers proposes placing a cap on termination rates at the same level as the termination rate charged on calls to UK mobile numbers. This would allow these calls to become inclusive in allowances on landlines and on mobiles in the same way as calls to UK mobile numbers. Call-forwarding costs inherent in the use of 070 numbers will no longer be borne by the caller, they will be borne by the called party. This will introduce proper competition between providers of these services.


Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by NGMsGhost on Aug 20th, 2019 at 11:08am

Ian01 wrote on Feb 18th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
Ofcom marches on with their reviews. Their latest consultation covering 070 numbers proposes placing a cap on termination rates at the same level as the termination rate charged on calls to UK mobile numbers. This would allow these calls to become inclusive in allowances on landlines and on mobiles in the same way as calls to UK mobile numbers. Call-forwarding costs inherent in the use of 070 numbers will no longer be borne by the caller, they will be borne by the called party. This will introduce proper competition between providers of these services


But the point is that no 070 number has ever been used for anything other than a deliberately and criminally malfeasant purpose by the very dodgiest of companies and that all of the follow me features are available far more cheaply at zero cost for the call maker and call recipient via geographic Voip numbers issued by companies like www.sipgate.co.uk so OFCON should never have allowed the abusive 070 number range to continue after their very first consultation in to the matter when they also (at the last minute and after commercial pressure from one of the largest abusers of these numbers) ignored their own proposals to split these numbers off in to their own clearly and separately labelled number range.........

Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by Ian01 on Aug 20th, 2019 at 1:45pm

Whatever the history, the cap on termination rates for calls to 070 numbers takes effect on 1 October 2019.

This should see the end to Wangiri and identity fraud scams on this number range.




Title: Re: How to spot 07XXX NGNs as against std. Mobiles
Post by NGMsGhost on Aug 20th, 2019 at 3:42pm

Ian01 wrote on Aug 20th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
Whatever the history, the cap on termination rates for calls to 070 numbers takes effect on 1 October 2019.


Ofcom chickened out of their previous proposals many years earlier to move the 070 number range on to 06 after last minute pressure from Flextel and others that they would lose too much money.

And in order to hide this I see they have now removed that consultation and my then response to it from their website....................

As my other responses of many years ago to Ofcom such as this one at https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/29512/shersby.pdf still survive on their website I would suggest that my 070 consultation response of that time period has been removed quite deliberately to hide Ofcom's past misdeeds...........

SAYNOTO0870.COM » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2021. All Rights Reserved.