Where can I find information about the changes to non-geographic call prices that come into effect on 1 July 2015?

Ofcom's news release: http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2014/uk-calling/
Ofcom's main website: http://www.ukcalling.info/
Ofcom's explanatory video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzeU-ON9gKM

Background: http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/uk-calling.html
http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/uk-calling-clear-call-rates.html

Individual providers have published various information:
http://mobile.asda.com/pages/charges#uk-calling
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/51727/~/how-will-calls-to-08,-09-and-118-numbers-be-charged-from-1-july-2015%3F
http://www.kc.co.uk/products/phone/uk-calling/
http://www.kcbusiness.co.uk/content/newsletter-articles/view/changes-to-charges-for-08-09-and-118-numbers
http://www.o2.co.uk/help/everything-else/changes-to-non-geographical-numbers
http://community.plus.net/blog/2015/03/11/call-charges-to-service-numbers-are-changing-what-this-means-to-you/
http://www.phoneshopbysainsburys.co.uk/downloads/UK-calling-FAQs.pdf
http://www.sky.com/shop/terms-conditions/talk/code-of-practice/tariff-guide/
http://www.tescomobile.com/changes-to-call-charges

Haven't you answered your own question by posting all those links? The BT link explicitly says "We will be communicating our access charges to you on 1 July 2015 via this website" so don't expect any early announcements.

Right, I now understand that you weren't asking the question but posing the question then answering it.

What about the connection charge?

I have looked at a couple of the links and can only find comments re the Access and Service charges, no mention of connection fee, i.e a quote from Sky's page: -

"From 1 July 2015, the cost of calling any of these numbers will be split into two parts:

    The Access charge: This is what we charge you, per minute, for connecting the call. You can find out your access charge by looking at your Sky bill or looking within your Sky Talk tariff guide.
    
    The Service charge: This is the rest of the call charge. The organisation you are calling decides the service charge, and must communicate it. For example, if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you are calling might say: “Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge.”

By adding together the access charge and the service charge, you will know exactly what the call will cost you."

When they say "By adding together the access charge and the service charge, you will know exactly what the call will cost you." and an example of "if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you are calling might say: “Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge.”, in that example your phone company charge 20ppm that equates to 40ppm, where is the connection fee that could typically be 15p ?

.

derrick wrote on Mar 18^th, 2015 at 9:54am:

What about the connection charge?

Under the terms of "Clear Call Rates for Anyone" the Access Charge can only be a pence per minute rate
- NO CALL SET-UP FEE OR CALL CONNECTION CHARGE - a minimum charging duration (e.g. 1 minute) is permitted.

The "Access Charge" only applies on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. We wait to see if Ofcom will find a way of banning call set-up fees (connection charges) on other calls.

Currently, many landline providers include calls to 0845 and 0870 in "unlimited" £x-a-month bundles. Does it follow that there is good commercial justification for setting the universal access charge at 0p per minute?
Alternatively, will a provider be allowed to set the access charge at (say) 15p a minute for only out-of-bundle calls from a landline, while including access charges within the monthly "unlimited" bundle price?
Would readers care to speculate
a. which provider will be the first to declare their access charge, and their stance on bundles?
b. how much the first declared access charge will be?
c. whether BT mean what they say, that they're not declaring theirs till 1 July 2015?
d. whether a "service" charge of, say, 20p a minute means that the "service" provider's telco gets 20p a minute, or 20p less a handling charge of xp a minute?

nicholas43 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2015 at 9:48pm:

Currently, many landline providers include calls to 0845 and 0870 in "unlimited" £x-a-month bundles. Does it follow that there is good commercial justification for setting the universal access charge at 0p per minute? Alternatively, will a provider be allowed to set the access charge at (say) 15p a minute for only out-of-bundle calls from a landline, while including access charges within the monthly "unlimited" bundle price? Would readers care to speculate a. which provider will be the first to declare their access charge, and their stance on bundles? b. how much the first declared access charge will be? c. whether BT mean what they say, that they're not declaring theirs till 1 July 2015? d. whether a "service" charge of, say, 20p a minute means that the "service" provider's telco gets 20p a minute, or 20p less a handling charge of xp a minute?

Callers reasonably expect to pay their telephone provider for calls that they make. The Access Charge should NOT be zero.

BT has been regulated by Ofcom to effectively have a zero Access Charge on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers since 1996. That regulation has led to much of the confusion that has been seen with non-geo call costs. The NTS Retail Condition is being scrapped on 1 July 2015.

Calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers should NOT be inclusive. Only those callers who call those numbers should pay the Service Charge. Other callers should not be contributing to those costs.

Ofcom's intention is that 0845 is treated the same as 0843 and 0844 and that 0870 is treated the same as 0871 and 0872. At the consultation stage the project was called 'simplifying non-geographic numbers' and the current publicity campaign goes under the banner 'clear call rates for everyone'.

Despite the expectation that no-one would declare until well into May, or later,
a. Sky was first to declare their Access Charge.
b. 9.5p per minute.
c. time will tell.
d. TCP gets Service Charge less VAT. The non-geographic call handling costs are normally a couple of pence per minute for calls forwarded to a landline and a bit more for calls forwarded to a mobile. The remainder is usually paid out as revenue share or used to discount the service provider's bill for other telecoms services supplied.

Thanks for the tip about Sky. As far as I can see, Sky have nothing about this on their website. But according to this thread on the Sky user forum
http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Talk-line-rental/0845-numbers-new-charges/td-p/2313673
Sky has emailed their customers declaring 9.5p/min for non-inclusive calls. And users are guessing that the access charge will be included in Sky's anytime package. If so, the access charge will presumably be included for calls to all "service" numbers, not just 0845 and 0870.
Incidentally, all telcos seem to have concluded that they make more profit from a predictable monthly income from an "unlimited" package, than from pay-per-call.

Where the Service Charge remains chargeable, there is no provision for having an allowance of zero-rated Access Charge minutes followed by Xp per minute Access Charge for calls made thereafter.

Where the Service Charge remains chargeable, there must be a single rate set for the Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. I cannot see any provider setting a zero Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Where the Service Charge is made inclusive, the Access Charge must be set to zero. Ofcom originally said that where inclusive calls are offered, they would have to cover all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. More recently the rules were changed such that individual number ranges could be made inclusive. Given that the Service Charge for 084 numbers can be up to 7p per minute and for 087 numbers can be up to 13p per minute, there seems to be no valid reason why the Service Charge for whole number ranges would be made inclusive.

In comparison, termination rates for ordinary calls are very much less: 0.21p per minute for 01 and 02 numbers, 0.56p per minute for 03 numbers and (from 1 May 2015) 0.68p per minute for 071-075 and 077-079 numbers.

In Ofcom's "Final statement"
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-no/final-statement
they said

Quote:

we are setting rules about the structure of the access and service charges so that consumers can more readily understand and, where appropriate, remember them. These include: [list bull-blackball] one access charge per tariff package, for calls to all unbundled non-geographic number ranges, though the access charge may be included in a bundle of inclusive minutes for some or all non-geographic numbers [my emphases]; the access charge to be set as a simple 'pence per minute' rate;

On the face of it, therefore, Sky could include unlimited, or a defined total number of minutes per month, within each of their monthly bundles, to some "service" numbers, for example 0843, 0844, and 0845. It's not clear to me whether Sky can (as now? - I haven't checked) say "but only for the first x minutes of each call".

There's further details in the Ofcom final statement, possibly somewhere around section 3.58 (if I remember right).

The actual rules that providers have to follow are in the amended version of Ofcom's General Condition 17.

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, EE now has a page (with multiple typos and some omissions) about the changes:
http://ee.co.uk/help/add-ons-benefits-and-plans/price-plans-and-costs/ee-price-plans/changes-to-numbers-starting-08-09-and-118

Ian01 wrote on Apr 8^th, 2015 at 5:17pm:

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, EE now has a page (with multiple typos and some omissions)

e.g. "0843, 08434, 08435" which obviously should read "0843, 0844, 0845" and it omits 0870.

Not only that, but the claim that these numbers are...
Quote:

... typically used for banks, utility companies, customer helplines, government departments ...

... nowadays mischaracterises their intended use.

Most banks have moved from 0845 to 0345 numbers ahead of impending FCA regulation. Utility companies and customer helplines have mainly moved to 03 numbers. This is as a result of the Consumer Contracts Regulations which came into force in June 2014. Government departments have moved from 0845 to either 0300 or 0345 numbers as a result of the Cabinet Office guidance published in December 2013.

084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are now mainly used for chatlines, recorded information lines, subscription-free conference calling services, instant-access international dial-through services, various automated and interactive services such as voting on a TV show, adult entertainment services, directory enquiries, etc.

There are still a few sales lines using these numbers, but the requirement to declare the Service Charge should see a reduction in this use.

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Virgin Media has had a page about the changes online for a while:
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/News/UK-Calling-a-message-from-Ofcom/td-p/2738832

And the numpties at Virgin are as clueless as EE.

Quote:

...will be known as Non Geographic Numbers (not service numbers) to align with the rest of the industry 118 will be referred to as Directory Enquiries

No, they'll be referred to as service numbers (even when you get no service) because NGN was baffling telecomspeak.

And, of course, 118 always has been the range for the DQ ripoffs of the desperate or unwary.
Any clues about whether more publicity for the service charge for using a DQ service will result in defensible charges?

Visibility of the DQ Service Charge levels might rein in some of the more excessive ones. The more important point is with separate declaration of Service Charge, callers will be able to make a clear choice as to which DQ service to use. When a mobile network charges every DQ service at £5 per minute consumers had no choice.

The separate declaration of Access Charge should lead to a number of  price reductions. No longer will mobile operators be able to jack up the prices, they will have to set the same Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. Where a service has a lower Service Charge it will cost less to call.

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Virgin Media has a page about the changes:
http://my.virginmedia.com/customer-news/articles/servicenumbers.html

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Three has a page about the changes:
http://support.three.co.uk/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBISAPI.DLL?Command=New,Kb=Mobile,Ts=Mobile,T=Article,varset_cat=callsemails,varset_subcat=3787,Case=obj(3060)

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Talk Talk has a page about the changes:
http://help2.talktalk.co.uk/uk-calling-0

and another page which very briefly mentions the changes:
http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/pricing/info/pricing-notification

The link from that page to a 'list of Service Charges' does not contain any such information.

Talk Talk also add that they will no longer offer inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers from 1 July 2015.
http://help2.talktalk.co.uk/how-much-do-uk-calls-cost#0845

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Vodafone has two pages which briefly mention the changes:
http://www.vodafone.co.uk/explore/costs/pay-monthly-call-charges/index.htm
http://www.vodafone.co.uk/explore/costs/pay-as-you-go-call-charges/index.htm

With just two months to go, and with the exception of LycaMobile and the addition of PlusNet, all of the providers listed at http://www.ukcalling.info/about now have at least something online about the forthcoming changes.

Not all of it is well-written or completely accurate, but it should give a flavour of what's happening.

Vodafone have recently added an additional page with more information:
http://www.vodafone.co.uk/campaigns/calling-service-numbers/calling-service-numbers-1/index.htm

Additional page on Sky's website that was originally missed out of the list in the first post of this thread:
http://help.sky.com/articles/ofcom-uk-calling-campaign-faqs

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Talk Mobile has a page about the changes:
http://talkmobile.co.uk/uk-calling/

When The Phone Co-op get their act together, they might have an official page about the changes.
Until then...  https://archive.is/rAHTU https://archive.is/v5Qt8

Lots of these announcements are oddly muddled. If phone company staff don't understand the new regime, what hope does Joe Public have?
And there are still lots of posters, billboards, signs at roadworks etc which advertise 084 numbers. I just don't believe that they are going to magically show the service charge by 1 July 2015.
And many companies (eg Thames Water, supermarkets etc etc) are wastefully keeping 0800 numbers. From 1 July, 0800 will cost them a lot. Obviously, their customers will pay, via increased charges and prices.
From 1 July, what's the point of 0800, except to enhance telcos' profits? 03 is a much better deal for users.

nicholas43 wrote on May 17^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

From 1 July, what's the point of 0800, except to enhance telcos' profits? 03 is a much better deal for users.

0800 is free from my landline. 03 is not.

Not all callers have inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers. Some providers charge extortionate rates for calls made outside of the inclusive allowances of a call plan. Where a service wants to guarantee that all callers incur no incremental call cost, they can use an 080 number. Callers must, however, become more aware that signing up to a package of anytime inclusive calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers is now the norm, but that's for another thread.

The running costs for an 080 number will in many cases be only a couple of pence per minute more than those for an 03 number.

Ian01 wrote on May 17^th, 2015 at 7:01pm:

The running costs for an 080 number will in many cases be only a couple of pence per minute more than those for an 03 number.

Why is the caller charged more than calling 01/02/03 when calling an 080 number from a mobile when they pay nothing from a fixed line?

Surely it only costs the same as dialling any non revenue sharing number, and if there is any difference then the recipient is paying for that.

Why should the caller pay an exorbitant rate from a mobile when the call is "freephone" where the recipient is paying for the call?

Having said the above, from July 1st it should all be academic as all 080 numbers will be free to the caller from all phones.


.

With 080 numbers the called party pays the non-geographic call-handling and call-forwarding costs (at much the same rate as for, e.g., 03 numbers) as well as a Call Origination Fee to compensate the caller's phone provider for carrying the call. This fee adequately covers call origination costs from landlines.

Mobile operators say the payment they receive is not large enough to cover the cost of origination from a mobile, hence they charge for the call. As mobile operators charge for calls to 080 numbers, I believe that for many years BT no longer pays a Call Origination Fee to mobile operators for calls to 080 numbers hosted by BT. Of course, many mobile operators charge excessively for calls to 080 numbers. If they had charged, say, 5p per minute I'm sure no-one would have created a fuss. The fact that some charge up to 40p per minute has forced Ofcom's hand. From 1 July 2015, they will have to make do with the income from a Call Origination Fee of around 3p or 4p per minute.

As an aside, the Call Origination Fee on calls to 080 numbers from BT payphones is now 72p per minute. Some charities, principally those using numbers starting 0808 80 and 116, have recently bartered an exemption.

I still think that 0800 is an idea whose time is about to go. Nothing is ever really free, of course. When I call 0800, the organisation I am calling is paying - sometimes a lot. If it's Thames Water, they recharge the global cost of 0800 calls to all their customers, through their water bills. (So all their customers pay.) If it's a charity, the charity spends more on its phone bill, and less on its charitable objects.
I accept that a few people, at some times of day, are still paying per call for their phone calls to 01 02 and 03. But from 1 July 2015 they'd get a better deal, overall, if organizations said 'call us on 03, and ask us to call you back if you pay per call.' The honest pricing message for 0800 will be "there's no up-front service charge to you on your phone bill, but someone is paying x pence a minute, and that someone isn't our shareholders."

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, the Phone Coop has two pages about the changes:
http://www.thephone.coop/support/uk-calling-faq/
http://www.thephone.coop/support/changes-to-ngc-services/

There's only a few weeks to go. My betting is that, come 1 July,
(a) there will be lots of adverts, flyers, etc still around showing 084 and 087 numbers with the old misleading guff about "x p a minute from a BT landline", or the pre-historic "local call rate".
(b) there will be some adverts, flyers, etc that say "service charge y p a minute", but they will have got it wrong, and in fact z p a minute will be charged on the phone bill.
(c) people using PAYG mobiles will suffer random charges, and will have no idea what they have been charged for a given call, unless they check their balance before and immediately after each call.
OK, we can report miscreants to the ASA. But who do we claim refunds from? Our phone company, or the company that misled us about the service charge?

nicholas43 wrote on May 26^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

There's only a few weeks to go. My betting is that, come 1 July…

I would have a bet that there will also be far worse mistakes, typos etc. - that is the nature of things.

We must remember that much of the good effect has already happened, with so many having already moved away from 084/087 numbers, because of what was going to happen and the regulatory changes that were made as a result of this.

I predict that the change to compliance and the continuing move away from 084/087 will, in some cases, be lamentably slow - but it will happen.


I do not believe that there is a direct legal liability in respect of a misrepresented Service Charge (i.e. the z vs. y situation), but the moral responsibility to put things right (as well as dealing with the ASA) is very strong. The fair telecoms campaign is strongly of the view that any understatement of a Service Charge must be corrected, with a settlement of the excess charge incurred as a minimum.

We have yet to see if the telcos will have problems with billing correctly. I understand there to be a general acceptance that (with only 80 different rates to deal with at this stage) it is achievable, and none have asked for a delay to the implementation date. Only time will tell the scale of the inevitable problems with switching over, and whether these will continue to become lasting difficulties. Obviously any error must be corrected.


The only things of which we can be sure are: a) this is the right thing to do, and b) it will not go perfectly smoothly.

Ian01 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2015 at 10:14pm:

Callers reasonably expect to pay their telephone provider for calls that they make. The Access Charge should NOT be zero. BT has been regulated by Ofcom to effectively have a zero Access Charge on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers since 1996. That regulation has led to much of the confusion that has been seen with non-geo call costs. The NTS Retail Condition is being scrapped on 1 July 2015. Calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers should NOT be inclusive. Only those callers who call those numbers should pay the Service Charge. Other callers should not be contributing to those costs.

I see you have posted on just about every thread on every site expressing the same view. The flaw in your argument is that it seems to assume that all call packages will fall in cost significantly from 1 July, as calls to these numbers will no longer be inclusive. I bet this is not the case. Packages will remain at the same prices, with the same huge increases each year, but will now offer less value for money.

I just received a text from EE about my legacy T-Mobile contract. Details of their prices are here:

http://www.ee.co.uk/t-mobile-ukcalling

I'm sure it initially said the access charge was 44p, but it's been quickly amended to add "per minute".

The interesting this is that my T-Mobile contract has always said my inclusive minutes include calls to 08 numbers. I asked at the time what that meant, and was told it included pretty much all 08 numbers, including freephone, 0844, etc. I never believed this, and as I didn't have anything in writing, I have never dared to call an 08 number, as I know there's little chance I would be able to claim a refund.

It'll be interesting to see whether they chance the description of my contract so that it no longer has the reference to 08 numbers.

jrawle wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 11:07am:

The flaw in your argument is that it seems to assume that all call packages will fall in cost significantly from 1 July, as calls to these numbers will no longer be inclusive. I bet this is not the case. Packages will remain at the same prices, with the same huge increases each year, but will now offer less value for money.

When you call an 0845 number your provider has to pay out about 2p per minute to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 7p per minute (up to £4.20 per hour), the same as for 0843 and 0844 numbers.

When you call an 0870 number your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the 0870 number. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 13p per minute (up to £7.80 per hour), the same as for 0871 and 0872 numbers.

Given that 084 and 087 numbers are returning to usage for chargeable services paid for as the call is being made (recorded information lines including sports results and weather forecasts, chatlines, entertainment services including competitions and voting on a TV show, subscription-free conference-calling services, instant-access international dial-through services and paying for other small value goods and services, etc), only the caller who made that call should pay the Service Charge.

There's no particular reason why package prices should fall. When you call an 03 number, your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the number. With all the changes that have happened over the last year you're likely calling a lot more 03 numbers than you were before, ergo you are getting better value out of the monthly package fee. Additionally, for most people (those who use sayNOto0870 to look up alternative numbers are in the minority), the number of calls made to non-inclusive numbers such as 0844 and 0871 will have significantly reduced, and their overall monthy spend will also have reduced.

Value for money is measured by the number of minutes of inclusive calls you made, not by how many different prefixes are included.

Apparently, BT will continue with inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers after 1 July 2015. The caller will pay their line rental and less than a tenner for a call package. That package will allow each subscriber to make sufficient calls such as to cause BT to have to pay out up to £130 to the organisations that have been called. It is stunts such as this, with non-transparent call pricing, that push up everyone's bill.

Ian, I completely agree with you that the current charging regime for 0845 and 0870 is mad. I also think that telcos' push to get everyone on packages is against customers' interests. Much better to pay a fair price per call, and decide whether each call is worth making, and how long to witter on for.
Packages (both for landlines and mobiles) result in huge cross-subsidies from little-old-ladies who make 3 calls a month to teenagers who use all their minutes.
However, given that telcos are fixated on selling packages, I would expect packages to include the access (but not the service) charge for calling at least 084, and possibly 087.

It is important for people to be on the right deal for their usage.

No-one should be paying e.g. 30p to 50p per minute for calls to numbers starting 01, 02, 03, 071-075 and 077-079 from a mobile phone. Such rates are a rip off.

There are plenty of mobile providers offering rates of 3p to 10p per minute.

Once you start making more than 50 to 100 minutes of calls in a month a call bundle for £5 usually offers better value. Clearly, people who make only 10 or 20 minutes of calls should not buy these types of deals.

As usage goes up, larger call bundles offer better value for money. As the price doubles, the allowances often go up by much more than double, sometimes five-fold.

Once text messaging, internet access and the option to purchase a handset over a period of many months is added the choices become more complex.

Consumers are bombarded by thousands of deals but with no explanation as to how to go about selecting the right one.

Simplification of the numbering plan and rationalisation of the associated call charges, especially the current changes, is going to help a lot, as is the ongoing migration from 084 and 087 numbers to 034 and 037 numbers by very many businesses and organisations.

From landlines, things are much simpler. Once you start making more than about half an hour of calls per month to 01, 02 and 03 numbers, purchasing an inclusive call bundle will usually offer better value for money. Once the bundle has been purchased you can make an unlimited number of such calls as long as each call is less than 60 minutes long.

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, John Lewis Home Phone has a page about the changes:
https://www.johnlewisbroadband.com/ukcalling/

Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 11:37am:

When you call an 0845 number your provider has to pay out about 2p per minute to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 7p per minute (up to £4.20 per hour), the same as for 0843 and 0844 enumbers. When you call an 0870 number your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the 0870 number. From 1 July that will change to be anywhere from 1p to 13p per minute (up to £7.80 per hour), the same as for 0871 and 0872 numbers.

Why should customers care how much the company providing their service is paying its suppliers? Who thinks about how much the supermarket pays the freight company to bring its stock? What is important is the price the customer pays, and what goods or service they receive for that price. So that is all irrelevant.


Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 11:37am:

Given that 084 and 087 numbers are returning to usage for chargeable services paid for as the call is being made (recorded information lines including sports results and weather forecasts, chatlines, entertainment services including competitions and voting on a TV show, subscription-free conference-calling services, instant-access international dial-through services and paying for other small value goods and services, etc), only the caller who made that call should pay the Service Charge. There's no particular reason why package prices should fall. When you call an 03 number, your provider has to pay out about 0.5p per minute to the benefit of the telecoms provider that hosts the number. With all the changes that have happened over the last year you're likely calling a lot more 03 numbers than you were before, ergo you are getting better value out of the monthly package fee. Additionally, for most people (those who use sayNOto0870 to look up alternative numbers are in the minority), the number of calls made to non-inclusive numbers such as 0844 and 0871 will have significantly reduced, and their overall monthy spend will also have reduced.

If there's no change in package price on 1 July, anyone who presently gets 0845 and 0870 calls included, but from 1 July does not, is worse off. At the moment, part of their package cost is paying for any 0845 or 0870 calls they make - so everyone is paying for those calls as you say. From July, the package prices don't change, so either everyone is still paying for those 0845 or 0870 calls, or else is represents a huge cost in the price of the package.



Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 11:37am:

Value for money is measured by the number of minutes of inclusive calls you made, not by how many different prefixes are included.

Presumably, if someone currently has a need to call certain numbers, but from 1 July they have to pay extra to call those numbers, while still paying the same package price, that's worse value for money. If a customer currently calls 0845 numbers and pays nothing extra, by your own definition, they will be receiving poorer value for money from July as they will be making fewer minutes of inclusive calls. The fact that 03 numbers or any others are included in irrelevant.


Ian01 wrote on May 27^th, 2015 at 11:37am:

Apparently, BT will continue with inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers after 1 July 2015. The caller will pay their line rental and less than a tenner for a call package. That package will allow each subscriber to make sufficient calls such as to cause BT to have to pay out up to £130 to the organisations that have been called. It is stunts such as this, with non-transparent call pricing, that push up everyone's bill.

I thought it was called competition. You choose the package that seems best value for you. Again, who cares how much BT have to pay out behind the scenes. I very much doubt they would do this if they were losing money.

The very reason I started using this site, many years ago now, was because line rental was increasing massively, while being offset by inclusive calls. That made calls such as 0870 that weren't inclusive a huge rip-off, as you effectively paid for them twice. When more NGNs became inclusive in recent years, I thought that was a huge improvement. These latest changes seem to be reversing that, which is a huge step backwards. I don't think there should be any revenue sharing numbers, except premium rate 09 numbers. All other numbers should be charged at a standard rate (inclusive or not, depending on your package). Also, reasonably priced packages that didn't include calls, but where the calls weren't a rip-off, would also be welcome.

jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

Why should customers care how much the company providing their service is paying its suppliers? Who thinks about how much the supermarket pays the freight company to bring its stock? What is important is the price the customer pays, and what goods or service they receive for that price. So that is all irrelevant.

This is not at all about the phone service "paying its supplier". The essential point exposed by Clear Call Rates for Everyone is that when you call an 084, 087, 09 or 118 number you are paying two separate suppliers for two separate services. One is the payment to your telephone provider to simply connect and convey the call. The other is the payment to a third party for a chargeable service such as a weather forecast, sports results, horoscope, entry fee for a competition, payment to a conference call or dial through service, or a donation to a charity. In all cases your telephone provider is simply acting as an agent in collecting the revenue and passing it on. Why should other callers be asked to contribute to this onwards payment?

The changes also expose those who use these numbers and benefit from imposing a Service Charge but are not offering any sort of chargeable service. Customer service and other such lines are no longer allowed to use these types of numbers.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

If there's no change in package price on 1 July, anyone who presently gets 0845 and 0870 calls included, but from 1 July does not, is worse off.

In previous years, some people were able to call HMRC and DWP using inclusive calls to 0845 numbers from their landline. The majority of people, especially those using a mobile phone, had to pay for the calls. Those organisations now use 0300 and 0345 numbers and the new 03 numbers are inclusive for far more people. Every landline and mobile provider has deals with inclusive calls to 03 numbers.

Calls to 0844 and 0871 numbers are not inclusive. A large number of those users have recently migrated to 03 numbers and calls to these organisations are now inclusive on landlines and on mobiles.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

At the moment, part of their package cost is paying for any 0845 or 0870 calls they make - so everyone is paying for those calls as you say. From July, the package prices don't change, so either everyone is still paying for those 0845 or 0870 calls, or else it represents a huge cost in the price of the package.

The termination rates for 0870 numbers are currently about 35p per hour but when declared as a Service Charge will increase to up to £7.80 per hour. The caller that made the call should pay the Service Charge, just as they do for 0871 and 0872 numbers. Likewise for 0845 (which will increase to up to £4.20 per hour) vs. 0844 and 0843.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

I thought it was called competition. You choose the package that seems best value for you. Again, who cares how much BT have to pay out behind the scenes. I very much doubt they would do this if they were losing money.

Calls to 084 numbers, including 0845 numbers, incur a Service Charge of up to 7p per minute. Calls to 087 numbers, including 0870 numbers, incur a Service Charge of up to 13p per minute. You have to ask why BT wants to include calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers but will not include other 084 and 087 numbers with the same level of Service Charge.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

When more NGNs became inclusive in recent years, I thought that was a huge improvement.

The inclusion of calls to 0845 numbers involves a cynical deception of callers, one which Clear Call Rates for Everyone now reveals.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

These latest changes seem to be reversing that, which is a huge step backwards.

The changes are a big step forwards. They make those who are in receipt of a financial benefit own up to that fact and force them to reconsider their position. They can no longer hide behind "Calls cost X from a BT line" as their excuse.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

I don't think there should be any revenue sharing numbers, except premium rate 09 numbers.

Given the enormous exodus of users from the 084 and 087 ranges over the last year or so, that may well be the end effect in a few years time.


jrawle wrote on May 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

All other numbers should be charged at a standard rate (inclusive or not, depending on your package). Also, reasonably priced packages that didn't include calls, but where the calls weren't a rip-off, would also be welcome.

Numbers where only the caller's telecoms company is being paid (01, 02, 03, 071-075, 077-079) should be inclusive. Numbers where a third party content supplier or service is also being paid should not be inclusive.

When 0845 numbers were being used by essential government services and while the additional charge was 2p per minute, maybe there was a case for the additional charges to be spread across all BT subscribers. Many other providers, especially mobile operators, were not prepared to do this. Now that these services use 03 numbers there is no such need and there are no additional charged imposed on callers. The call recipient pays the non-geographic call handling and call forwarding costs.

Have any of the 118 sharks announced their "service" charge? I'm looking forward to the adverts with the running idiots displaying (for example)
118 xyz

£4.00 a minute plus your access charge .

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, ASDA Mobile has an additional page about the changes.
https://mobile.asda.com/pages/services

Has any telco succeeded in providing clear and correct information? ASDA is better than many I have seen. But they have mindlessly cut-and-pasted text from somewhere. (Ofcom?)

Quote:

1. The 'access charge': Asda Mobile will charge 8p per minute for connecting you to the service you want.

Clear - and less grasping than many.


Quote:

2. The 'service charge': This is set by the organisation or service you are calling.

Clear and roughly right. (Lots of end users will just be mindlessly sticking with whatever 0844def range their telco sold them.)

Quote:

For the access charge, look on your phone bill or speak to your phone company.

Why go back to the access charge? And why paste this, when you've just told us you're charging 8p/min?

Quote:

You'll find the service charge wherever the number is advertised.

No I won't - not for many years, and in some cases not ever.

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, SSE / SWALEC has a page about the changes.
https://www.swalec.co.uk/PhoneAndBroadband/Prices/PriceUpdates/

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, giffgaff has a page about the changes.
http://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Announcements/Changes-to-service-number-charging/m-p/16745244#M74400

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Sainsbury's Mobile has a page about the changes.
http://www.phoneshopbysainsburys.co.uk/uk-calling

Ian01 wrote on Jun 1^st, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, SSE / SWALEC has a page about the changes. https://www.swalec.co.uk/PhoneAndBroadband/Prices/PriceUpdates/

This bit is interesting, have any other telcos spelled this out?

Quote:

Once this change takes place, 0845 and 0870 calls will remain inclusive for the first 70 minutes as previously, and for the relevant periods as per your calls package. After that, they will be charged at the Access Charge rate + the relevant Service Charge.

These access charges seem to be varying wildly by company, for no reason I can fathom.

Additional SSE pages:
https://www.southern-electric.co.uk/PhoneAndBroadband/Prices/PriceUpdates/
https://www.atlantic.co.uk/PhoneAndBroadband/Prices/PriceUpdates/

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Hyperoptic has a page about the changes.
https://hyperoptic.com/changes-to-08-09-118-numbers-from-1-july-2015/

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Zen has a page about the changes.
http://blog.zen.co.uk/caller-clarity/

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Lyca Mobile has a page about the changes.
http://www.lycamobile.co.uk/en/uk-calling

Additional.Talk Mobile page:
http://talkmobile.co.uk/uk-calling1a

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Post Office Home Phone has some pages about the changes.
https://account.pobroadband.co.uk/SelfCare.UI/ContentManagement/FAQs?topic=HomePhone
http://www.postoffice.co.uk/price-guide-after-july

Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Post Office Mobile has some pages about the changes.
http://mobile.postoffice.co.uk/help-and-support/charges-prices/
https://mobile.postoffice.co.uk/call-rates/special

Additional Post Office Home Phone page:
https://account.pobroadband.co.uk/SelfCare.UI/ContentManagement/FAQs?topic=BillingAndPayments

With just 48 hours to go until Clear Call Rates for Everyone must be implemented by all retail landline and mobile providers, it is concerning to see that a number of providers have nothing at all on their website about the forthcoming changes:

Lebara
The People's Operator
White Mobile
Delight Mobile
Family Mobile
GT Mobile
Kingdom Mobile
Vectone
Eclipse
18185.com
1899.com

Given that most networks usually give 30 days notice of impending price changes, there must now be a strong suspicion that some of the above will fail to comply with the new rules.

If you're a customer of one of these networks, now would be a good time to ask them whether they will be complying with the new rules, whether calls to 080 numbers will be free from 1 July 2015, and how much the Access Charge for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers will be.

Finarea's websites seem to aim to tell you today's price. So maybe Finarea will wait until 1 July to say which (if any) UK 08x numbers they will continue to connect, and at what prices? Not sure if they will need to advertise an explicit access charge, providing they say what they will bill (ie their access charge, plus service charge, for each 08x range, if any, that they are choosing to offer from 1 July).
Or will they continue to advertise 3p/min to UK 0845 etc, which will then be binding on them as access+service charge? And will Finarea not notice 1 July has happened until they start getting billed termination fees > 7p/min (including the service charge)?

Ofcom's new rules require they declare the Access Charge, not the bundled prices, set the same level Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers, and charge the call using their Access Charge plus the correct Service Charge rate for the number called.

They would have a big problem if they bill the customer 3p per minute and then have to pay out up to 7p/13p per minute, as that would also be a serious breach of the new version of Ofcom's General Condition 17.

Ian01 wrote on Jun 29^th, 2015 at 5:57pm:

They would have a big problem if they bill the customer 3p per minute and then have to pay out up to 7p/13p per minute, as that would also be a serious breach of the new version of Ofcom's General Condition 17.

Would it?

Quote:

17.24 The retail price for a call to an Unbundled Tariff Number which is charged to a Consumer is the sum of— (a) the Access Charge Element; and (b) the Service Charge Element, subject to any special offers, discounts or call bundling arrangements which the Communications Provider offers to that Consumer.

In theory, can't Finarea have a special offer such that access+service charge to 0845 is 3p/min? I'd be surprised, however, if that is what they intend. I guess that neither of their (?)2 staff has read anything about UKCalling. Somebody will (presumably?) notice when they start getting billed for 7p/min termination.

Ofcom staff apparently believe their own myth, that users of 08x numbers will publicise their service charge. Many will not, unless callers complain. Many will not, even if callers do complain. And few callers will bother to complain to the ASA.

Meanwhile, I have insisted on logging a formal complaint with Ofcom that Ofcom does not make available on its website a list of all 08x number ranges and the corresponding service charge. I realise that such a list will be long. But it could be made more consumer-friendly than the spreadsheets telcos used to bury deep in their websites 08bcdef = g309 (and so on for 209 pages).

I hope other readers of this thread will consider also complaining to Ofcom.

There are approx 17 500 blocks of 084, 087 and 09 numbers allocated to telecoms providers, so the list, however it is presented, will be pretty long.

The next myth is that telcos will get the billing right.

I made a test call to 0845 6006000, formerly used by Co-operative Bank for its credit card, now replaced by 0345 6006000. Because of the Co-op Bank's ineptitude, the call still connected.

Our "recent calls" list from EE includes


Quote:

NonGeo Local 04/07/2015 08:28 448456006000 SC6A 00:00:11 £0.009

"NonGeo Local" has, of course, been nonsense for many years. It is now inspissated nonsense.

Note that EE does not state that this is the service charge, only, and does not show an access charge of 0.000. (In contrast, all our calls to 01 02 03 and mobiles are listed with a charge of 0.000.)

Any clues about what SC6A means?

There is, of course, no way I can find out what the service charge for the 0845 600 range is. The Co-op Bank doesn't state it, because they no longer publicise this number. So I don't know whether it's 1p a minute, and we're being charged for a whole minute (sans VAT), or 5p a minute, and we're charged for 11 seconds, or what.

SC 6 means the Service Charge is 5p per minute, including VAT, billed per second from the start of the call.

12 seconds will bill as 1p. Your 11 second call was billed as 0.9p.

The A means the Access Charge is inclusive.


Once everyone has been billed for all of their June calls, there's the opportunity to redesign the layout.

Ian01 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 10:35pm:

SC 6 means the Service Charge is 5p per minute, including VAT, billed per second from the start of the call ...

Many thanks Ian! I can now be the only EE customer who understands their bill! Hope they do improve the layout, and scrap the NonGeo Local garbage.

nicholas43 wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 10:19pm:

There is, of course, no way I can find out what the service charge for the 0845 600 range is.

You can usually find them here:  http://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm

Dozens of sites have published lists or have lookup functions. Lists are available from EE, Vodafone and TalkTalk.

There are hundreds of differences between them. The point is that service providers should be declaring these charges.

Ian01 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 9:32pm:

Dozens of sites have published lists or have lookup functions. Lists are available from EE, Vodafone and TalkTalk. There are hundreds of differences between them. The point is that service providers should be declaring these charges.

Of course they should. But many are dragging heels for one reason or another.

I was trying to be helpful. The info supplied by them is usually very accurate. As it was in the case of the Coop Bank. I thought it would be a handy source for people seeking service charges until a approved  list is available.

bigjohn wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 8:40pm:

You can usually find them here:  http://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm

Many thanks. Magenta's site is most impressive. Assuming it's almost always accurate, shouldn't it be prominently mentioned on this website? And it looks like I was mistaken to demand that Ofcom provides a list? And maybe the Fairtelecoms campaign also doesn't need to?

nicholas43 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 9:14am:

Magenta's site is most impressive. Assuming it's almost always accurate, shouldn't it be prominently mentioned on this website? And it looks like I was mistaken to demand that Ofcom provides a list? And maybe the Fairtelecoms campaign also doesn't need to?

Ofcom do have a list of number allocations - see here.

The last I heard is these number allocations may not be accurate simply because of number porting as the lists are based on who was originally allocated a number/range, and not for any number porting afterwards.

As mentioned in the Clear Call Rates for Everyone thread we are actively engaged in belated efforts to sort out provision of a definitive list of applicable Service Charges. This is important both for the industry and a potential reference point for consumers.

It is however vital that (notwithstanding a need that must be met) nothing is done to remove the obligation of Service Providers who choose to impose a Service Charge on their callers to declare it. The relationship between the organisation that imposes this charge and those who have to pay it must be properly fulfilled - that must include specifying the charge and thereby having to justify it. There must be no opportunity to pass it off as being something that is a function of the telephone industry.

The telcos have long used 084 numbers as a way of shifting costs from their direct customers onto consumers in general. Making those who adopt the numbers carry that responsibility is an important step in ending their misuse.


We are also concerned about the publication of extensive tables of Service Charge number ranges and charges being used as a means of making tariff tables even less accessible than they were previously. One clear objective of "Clear Call Rates for Everyone" was to remove the need for such extensive price lists, so that the relevant and important information would become more accessible. One reason for us pressing for a single definitive publication is to make it possible for telcos to be prohibited from cluttering up their price lists in this way - under the pretence of helping consumers.