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OFTEL and 0990 / 0870 (Read 40,435 times)
NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #15 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:13pm
 
Quote:
Now BT wish to reduce the price paid to these providers. Won't this just force some out and affirm BT's domination of the market?

Sometimes Dave I am left wondering just exactly which side you are on!

The point is that almost no 0870 or 0845 phone number leads to a value added service in the way originally envisaged by OFTEL and there is absolutely zero regulation of the content of these services to check up on this.

I can just visit a website press a couple of buttons and voila I have such a number and no one knows who the hell I am or what service I am providing.  By contrast the ICSTIS 09 regime is quite different and becoming ever stricter.

Whatever you say NTS was orginally a BT originated proposal to OFTEL to which the ever BT friendly Mr Dave Edmonds (who seems to have just cleared his desk at Ofcom today judging from a Not Read message I got to one of my emails and the fact that emails to his Ofcom address are now bouncing back) amazingly enough gave his usual spineless approval.

There is no competition at all for the consumer in 084x and 087x calls because the customers are mainly captive and cannot shop around.  It is like a situation where you have to buy all your Mars bars at only one shop and they can set what price they like.  Surely you of all people don't buy all the Ofcom baloney about added value extra services on 084 and 087.  The only added value on these numbers is Intelligent Routing and the people paying for this should have been the companies, due to the cost savings to their businesses, and not their callers.

The only solution now is an extended Ofcom NTS Options for the Future Proposal 4 with all 084 and 087 revenue sharing banned, except that dialup ISPs could continue to revenue share (without being regulated by ICSTIS) on a new number range starting 04.  Its a shame that the dialup ISPs have to spend a bit of effort migrating these customers but its the only way to unscramble the revenue sharing dialup traffic from the 0845 voice traffic which should not be allowed to cost any more than a geographic national phone call does with whatever telecoms provider you are with.

BT surely actually do make lots of money out of 084x and 087x calls because they terminate the vast majority of these calls and earn far more from them (especially weekday daytime on 0870) than from terminating an ordinary geographic uk phone call.

Also surely the only reason Mr Darren Thomas of Blue Telecom ( www.bluetelecom.co.uk ) can offer his cheap free rider calls at 1p a time on Call18866 (presumably spare capacity from the larger business side of that telecoms companys main business) is because termination of a geographic call by BT costs him almost nothing whereas termination of an 0870 call is over 5p a minute in the weekday daytime.  Or have I missed something somewhere?
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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:15pm by N/A »  
 
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Dave
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #16 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:38pm
 
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Sometimes Dave I am left wondering just exactly which side you are on!

The competition I was referring to was the competition in companies providing these numbers. I wasn't suggesting a solution, more giving a reason why BT would be happy to see the price these calls cut.

As for why introduce 0990 in the first place. It is one thing to have local rate non-geographical numbers, but national rate (in the true sense of the words) rips-off those calling locally.

The idea of NTS should be kept separate from [Ofcom's] idea of a 'value-added' service. You say it was BT that proposed these services in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason that the charges for these numbers have been kept so high is due to Oftel/Ofcom rules. What has this got to do with BT and why is it BT's fault?
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« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:49pm by Dave »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #17 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:55pm
 
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason that the charges for these numbers have been kept so high is due to Oftel/Ofcom rules. What has this got to do with BT?

I don't think you will find that Ofcom actually set the call termination prices for 084x and 087x or the revenue share given to call centre operators.  These prices are actually determined by so called market forces.  But the main market forces here are a bidding war by the people offering these numbers to give the companies who run the call centres an ever higher pence per minute amount so as to get the business.

Since BT have Significant Market Power, according to Ofcom's own document, and BT terminate the largest number of 084x and 087x calls then surely they have the greatest control over the prices offered to terminate calls to these numbers.  The reason that prices do not fall significantly for terminating these calls is becase there is no competition for the consumer who pays the same price wherever he goes so he cannot drive down the prices paid in revenue share to the call centre operators.

NTS was surely originally a BT developed device to protect its future call revenue stream at a time when geographic call prices were being forced down constantly but they cunningly managed to dress up the main benefit as being a national presence and Intelligent Routing.

From the very moment I could first route geographic calls on my BT line with other providers like AXS Telecom at 2p per minute about 7 years ago I could never ever get the same price on 0990/0870.  This is because BT were always earning more from terminating these calls long before the revenue shares back to the call centre operators ever got so aggresively good as they are now.

The sales and marketing side of BT would I am sure love to see 084x and 087x carry on but they also have a corporate governance and social responsibility side to their actions and the whole 084x and 087x is now so obviously a rip off for the consumer that they can no longer justify it at a corporate level.  Surely no one is actually going to lose more financially if 084x and 087x revenue sharing is banned than BT?
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Dave
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #18 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 10:40pm
 
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I don't think you will find that Ofcom actually set the call termination prices for 084x and 087x or the revenue share given to call centre operators.  These prices are actually determined by so called market forces.  But the main market forces here are a bidding war by the people offering these numbers to give the companies who run the call centres an ever higher pence per minute amount so as to get the business.

I understand that when BT originates an NTS call it keeps only the amount to carry that call, and has to pass on the rest to the TCP. It is Oftel/Ofcom that has stated this. So other OCPs don't stand a chance of bringing down the price of these calls. Add to that the fact that BT will be a Transit CP for many NTS calls, it can only be BT who determine what (pretty much) everyone pays.

The reason for saying what I say is because it is down to Ofcom to intervene. Do you expect BT to simply reduce the price of the calls when it has no incentive to do so?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #19 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 10:59pm
 
Quote:
Add to that the fact that BT will be a Transit CP for many NTS calls, it can only be BT who determine what (pretty much) everyone pays.

The reason for saying what I say is because it is down to Ofcom to intervene. Do you expect BT to simply reduce the price of the calls when it has no incentive to do so?


But surely BT is also a TCP for a very large number of these calls and it is the TCP operator who effectively sets the prices and ultimately determines what the OCP is then forced to charge its customers just to make a living.

But I don't work in the telecoms industry so it is only my intelligent layman's attempt to understand a system that seems to be one of the most deliberately anticompetitive and consumer unfriendly setups that one could possibly imagine.

Regarding BT what I don't expect to happen is for its salesmen to have spent so long blatantly misleading companies that in switching to 0845 calls that they were doing the right thing by letting people call them from across the country at the local rate only for BT to then change the rules of the game and abolish any distinction between local and national call prices.  BT salesman have also long been dishonest by not telling their prey that 0845 calls have always been excluded from all inclusive calling plans and have always cost more with than national geographic call prices with many third party carriers like Tiscali etc.

I managed to persuade the government funded Leaseholder Advisory Service to restore their geographical number to their website only the other day.  They were horrified when they discovered 0845 actually costs far more for people to call them than a geographic phone number.

No I don't expect BT to reduce the price of the calls on its own but I do expect Ofcom to make it illegal for them to be allowed to be called "local rate" and "national rate" and for that to have happened a long time ago.  I also expect Ofcom to make it illegal to revenue share unless you go through ICSTIS style controls to set up a revenue sharing number.

You seem very sympathetic to the BT cause Dave.  You don't by some chance work for them or something?  Even if only as an engineer or whatever rather than on the commercial side.
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Dave
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #20 - Feb 18th, 2005 at 9:38pm
 
Quote:
Regarding BT what I don't expect to happen is for its salesmen to have spent so long blatantly misleading companies that in switching to 0845 calls that they were doing the right thing by letting people call them from across the country at the local rate only for BT to then change the rules of the game and abolish any distinction between local and national call prices.  BT salesman have also long been dishonest by not telling their prey that 0845 calls have always been excluded from all inclusive calling plans and have always cost more with than national geographic call prices with many third party carriers like Tiscali etc.

Why single out BT, this happens with all other providers? Also, as I mentioned previously, there are many other companies using these tactics to sell 084/087 numbers.

The fact is that it was inevitable that prices for (geographical) calls would fall. The rates for 0845/0870 numbers were only linked on BT's tariffs, as stipulated by the regulator. If BT were to have reduced its 0845/0870 numbers in line with BT Together rates, would there not be an uproar from providers of these numbers? Can you not see that BT cannot win? It's in a catch-22 situation!

Quote:
You seem very sympathetic to the BT cause Dave.  You don't by some chance work for them or something?  Even if only as an engineer or whatever rather than on the commercial side.

No, I don't work for BT. My dad is an ex-BT engineer.

I view the whole privatisation of the telecoms industry as a shambles. The whole idea of falling prices has been created using illusions created by the industry as a whole. BT withdrew Standard last year (see my thread on The Scream! forums, BT Standard tariff to be abolished). One big reason why I think that it was withdrawn was because BT's competitors often compared their tariffs to BT Standard. Advertising watchdogs didn't stop this. The competition within the telecoms industry seems to be built on these sorts of half truths and confustion marketing.

BT Together was introduced with lower rates that Standard, where all calls were charged per minute. Then they changed it in 2003, but kept the name. They quietly dropped £2.40 worth of call time! In 2004 they trumpeted a £1 reduction!!! We know that these sorts of halve truths have sold many businesses 084/087 numbers by calling them 'national rate' etc. BT is just one player, and to single it out above others is unfair. ALL providers are just as bad. Advertising watchdogs should have stamped this out.

Let's face it, if the likes of NEG believes it can convince doctors that their system is 'free', then there really isn't much hope.

I do not sympathise with the BT cause, as you put it. BT is a private company out to make a profit, that's what I see. I never said I agree with what it's done. I believe the whole mess can be summed up as poor regulation.

If these numbers had been call premium rate then there would be no problem. Also, don't forget that it is the regulator which determines what numbers are for and not the telcos!

Yes BT introduced 0990 numbers in the first place. As I said before, I didn't see the point of a national rate as it disavantages people calling locally. But the regulator/government should have seen this! BT hasn't broken any laws or anything, the regulator has let it happen.
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #21 - Feb 21st, 2005 at 2:48pm
 
Further to the mention of Kip Meek, this has been posted on the Ofcom site. I find it quite astonishing how these people get elected to more bodies when they don't even regulate their own (Ofcom) body.
Ofcom are supposed to be an independent body looking after the industry and the consumer, yet they don't even enforce existing regulations. As we have all mentioned the 0990/08xx scandal has been going on for at least 12 years with Oftel / Ofcom doing nothing. Perhaps they are just promoting him out of harms way ??   Grin

The last line HAS to be IRONY ???

Quote:


Kip Meek appointed as Chairman of European Regulators Group


Ofcom today announced that Kip Meek, its Senior Partner for Competition and Content, has been appointed as Chairman of the European Regulators Group (ERG).

Mr Meek, who is an Executive Member of the Ofcom Board, will take up the post in January 2006. The ERG role will be in addition to Mr Meek's role at Ofcom.

The European Regulators Group is an independent body comprising the heads of national communications regulators from 31 European Union, EU applicant and other European nations. It acts as an interface between national regulators and the European Commission, providing specialist advice and guidance on the development of Europe-wide communications markets.

Fabio Colasanti from the European Commission's Information Society and Media Directorate said: "I am very pleased that Kip Meek has accepted the Chair of the ERG for 2006."

He added: "His experience, and that of Ofcom, will be useful in steering the work of this very important group through a period of significant challenges for the regulation of the electronic communications sector."

Mr Meek said: "Ofcom's approach to the market in the UK is being followed closely across Europe. I look forward to learning from our European colleagues and helping to inform the wider debate."

Quote:
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #22 - Feb 21st, 2005 at 3:17pm
 
Quote:
The fact is that it was inevitable that prices for (geographical) calls would fall. The rates for 0845/0870 numbers were only linked on BT's tariffs, as stipulated by the regulator. If BT were to have reduced its 0845/0870 numbers in line with BT Together rates, would there not be an uproar from providers of these numbers? Can you not see that BT cannot win? It's in a catch-22 situation!

BT withdrew Standard last year (see my thread on The Scream! forums, BT Standard tariff to be abolished). One big reason why I think that it was withdrawn was because BT's competitors often compared their tariffs to BT Standard.

Yes BT introduced 0990 numbers in the first place. As I said before, I didn't see the point of a national rate as it disavantages people calling locally. But the regulator/government should have seen this! BT hasn't broken any laws or anything, the regulator has let it happen.


Dave,

With regards to your comments of a few days ago my complaint is that the non-geographical calls market is not structured in such a way that it was also "inevitable" that prices for calling those numbers also fell as the number of calls increased.

The reason this does not happen is because the actions of those paying for these products (the end consumer) do not impact on those running the lines (the call centres/service providers) because there are secret interim markets where the service providers are actually competing to get paid the best rate per call rather than to give the lowest call cost to their customers.

This whole NGN idea was invented by British Telecom and it was the whole basis on which Ofcom permitted NGNs in the first place.  I cannot help the fact that we have a regulator in the UK that has for years been totally in bed with BT rather than being a jack booted force of regulatory enforcment as for instance are the parking attendants of Westminster City Council.

Allowing for the uk telecoms industry as it is, which is dominated by a former nationalised monopoly that still behaves as a monopoly and with a so called regulator as weak as water, then it is surely totally reasonable of me to blame BT for (a) taking various devious anticompetitive steps that enabled it to prevent its BT wholesale trunk phone network from being separated from the rental of phone lines and phone calls into individual homes and (b) for coming up with an idea (NTS) that it sold on one basis, as being a handy call routing system for companies withe several call centres needing a national identity when it in fact had quite a separate objective of transferring all consumer business calls to these numbers but structuring the call payment systems for NGN calls so that consumer free choice and market forces did not control call prices.

Yes the telecoms regulator in the UK still is and always has been as weak as water but I cannot so much blame them for this as BT for using various secretive lobbying channels to bring this about and the government for agreeing to it.

As BT has Significant Market Power in the NTS market they call the shots and are primarily responsible for it.  And as for other people routing NTS calls at exorbitant costs, crying and going out of business if call prices fall well I am afraid I have no sorrow and no time for anyone who has built their business from such a parasytic and entirely consumer unfriendly range of activities.  Those who live by the sword should die by the sword is what I say.  And that includes BT.
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kk
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #23 - Feb 21st, 2005 at 6:57pm
 
Well said
kk
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KK
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #24 - Feb 21st, 2005 at 7:30pm
 
Quote:
Mr Meek said: "Ofcom's approach to the market in the UK is being followed closely across Europe. I look forward to learning from our European colleagues and helping to inform the wider debate."

Given the expectations that consumers might have of Mr Meek's proactive role at Ofcom his name does appear just a little unfortunate.

It would be nice if the man was even ever interviewed on Radio 4 etc so we could get a better idea of exactly who we are dealing with.

Does anyone know where we can find a CV for him?
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Dave
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #25 - Feb 23rd, 2005 at 1:20pm
 
When 0990 was introduced, there was only BT providing lines, so BT originated these calls and terminated them. I can see that they must have offered businesses some sort of incentive to use them instead of 0345 (local rate). I can see that this was the foundations of the mess we have today.

However, the regulator didn't do anything about it when it opened up the 0870 termination market. It seems to me that Ofcom sees competition as the be all and end all. Maybe this is why it has allowed the rates of 0845/0870 to stay so high.

Something which puzzles me is the fact that on the one hand Ofcom is purporting to be introducing competition but links pricing information to the SMP's rates! "Other networks may vary" is often used as a 'catch-all' get out.

The Post Office's offering charges 10p/min to 0870 in the daytime. If this isn't taking advantage of this misleading way of pricing, then I don't know what is. Again, I'm sure Ofcom see it as more competition, and if people wish to pay this much for the service, then it is up to them.

BT must provide access to all numbers, unless the regulator specifies otherwise. For other providers, it's up to their "commercial discretion". It just makes a complete mockery of the telephone network as a whole!

I think that it all calls in to question the competition in today's UK telecoms market. It appears to me that the 084/087 rip-off is just the tip of the iceberg.

From a domestic point of view, the fact is that BT own and run most of the network in this country. On going to another provider (CPS), BT still have to maintain the line. Therefore they have no incentive to maintain any quality of service.

As for BT going out of business, what happens to the network? Are we all left without service or will the government bail it out?
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« Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2005 at 1:29pm by Dave »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #26 - Feb 23rd, 2005 at 2:03pm
 
Quote:
The Post Office's offering charges 10p/min to 0870 in the daytime. If this isn't taking advantage of this misleading way of pricing, then I don't know what is. Again, I'm sure Ofcom see it as more competition, and if people wish to pay this much for the service, then it is up to them.

I think that it all calls in to question the competition in today's UK telecoms market. It appears to me that the 084/087 rip-off is just the tip of the iceberg.

As for BT going out of business, what happens to the network? Are we all left without service or will the government bail it out?


Regarding the current 0870 charges of the Post Office and even call18866.co.uk, both of whom charge more for 0870 numbers than BT, it isn't actually their fault.

The reason this is happening is because in the name of competition BT & Cable & Wireless (the big boys of the telecoms marketplace) were recently allowed to charge other call carrying companies more to terminate NTS calls with BT and Cable & Wireless than they charge for terminating NTS calls that originate on their own networks.  

Thus faced with the need to earn the same percentage margin on 0870 calls as their other calls the Post Office and Call18866 were faced with no option but to charge more than BT for them.  The alternative would have been to refuse to carry the calls but that is something that it is rather hard for an "all calls" CPS provider (like the Post Office) to explain doing.  That would only then lead to angry calls to their customer service department and the explanation that "ahem in order to get you the best price we can't carry the call but you can make the call and get the best price with BT by dialling the prefix 1280 before the rest of the number".

The villain again here is Ofcom who thinks competition is the right of various parties in the industry to charge as much as they want but not the freedom of the consumer to be able to make calls to 084/7 at prices cheaper than the operator with Significant Market Power i.e. BT  Yet for BT to currently be alllowed to offer the cheapest prices to 0845 and 0870 numbers flies in the face of all Ofcom's own rules and charters about the behaviour of the dominant market supplier.

But let's just face it that on the whole Ofcom people just aren't as clever as BT commercial people and that BT basically run rings round them.  It must be like schoolteaching - if you are no good at making money in the Telecoms industry then you take a job with Ofcom.

The big step that would have some immediate impact is for Ofcom to make rules that all calls carried on BT lines with all CPS and indirect carriers and also with BT must have a compulsory price announcement facility before every call stating the price per minute (as per the facility currrently provided for free by call18866.co.uk)

There is a lot of rubbish in the NTS Options for the Future Ofcom consultation about how expensive and difficult it would be for telecoms companies to do this but if so how is it a twobit player, with only 10,000 customers, like call18866.co.uk can afford to do it and still make a profit?  It is not at all expensive to offer this facility but what would be expensive is the huge loss of call revenue to BT that would follow when people simply boycott 0870 in large numbers and send emails etc to the companies concerned instead.

As the Ofcom Consumer Panel has made very clear in its own submission Ofcom has basically been in total dereliction of its duties in the two Ofcom consultation documents on NTS and has suggested a solution that is almost entirely industry centric but in no way in the interests of promiting the cheapest prices for retail domestic telecoms consumers.

Ofcom talks about increased granularity in the price tariff being a good thing but the reality is that like the current nonsense with the 0844 doctors surgery call tariff no one then has a clue what they are paying.  In fact in terms of granularity I think Ofcom must have secretly been using icing sugar so that the whole lot would simply pass through the sieve without any effect whatsoever.

If Ofcom don't get this one right there will be calls for the head of Stephen Carter and also most certainly for the head of the elusive and seemingly highly ineffective Kip Meek.

As for BT going out of business and the telephone system disintegrating  it wouldn't happen given that the economic prosperity of the whole of the uk is at stake.  

But government money might be needed to manage a transition to a national telco running the network but with no ownerhship of the lines into the homes of most
telecoms consumers.  The same model as for the gas and electricity industries should probably be adopted in terms of final supply of the product into the homes of end users.
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andy9
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #27 - Feb 24th, 2005 at 12:14am
 
Now how can you put down Mr Meek just after he was unanimously elected to his new post?

I like your use of the word illusive when you might have meant elusive. What does your allusive remark mean?

Does this person really exist?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #28 - Feb 24th, 2005 at 7:09am
 
Quote:
Now how can you put down Mr Meek just after he was unanimously elected to his new post?

I like your use of the word illusive when you might have meant elusive. What does your allusive remark mean?

Does this person really exist?


He exists here but only as a name:-

www.ofcom.org.uk/about_ofcom/boards_panels/ofcom_board/ofcom_exec/exec_cte?a=871...

Unfortunately despite being a so called communications regulator Ofcom does not publish pictures of any of their senior executive or board members.  This despite it being more or less the norm for corporate websites to do so.

But then the whole Ofcom website looks as though it was designed by Noddy rather than being a professional business like effort.

My allusion to Mr Meek being elusive was brought about by concern that his existence was simply an illusion.  I mean would a real person be called Kip Meek?  The regular guys all have standard names like Stephen Carter, Matt Peacock (seemingly very appropriately named in view of his love of radio interviews), Ed Richards and Philip Rutnam.

But as Mr Meek is the supposed policy guru of Ofcom you might expect him (a) to get some media coverage and (b) change his name by deed poll to something that did not immediately cast doubt on his credentials as a tough and effective formulator of regulatory policy.
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Flutty
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Re: OFTEL and 0990 / 0870
Reply #29 - Feb 27th, 2005 at 9:14pm
 
Further to my post re: "Letter to Oftel 93/95" - I have received a reply, totally avoiding the questions I put and referring me to Icstis regarding the 0990 query!! The most wonderful part is that they also informed me that Oftel no longer exists and Ofcom has replaced it, who did they think I wrote to???

I will now write back again, pointing out the history of 0990 - 0541 - 0870 etc and requesting a reply. I truly dont think there is any hope of Ofcom coming down on the side of the consumer, they dont even understand the problem, or the situation.

more soon
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