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ANSWERPHONES (Read 45,776 times)
NGMsGhost
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #15 - Nov 15th, 2008 at 2:04pm
 
jrawle wrote on Nov 11th, 2008 at 10:48pm:
It can actually be slightly annoying when people drag up really old threads.


I was wondering why lavillegour had suddenly resurfaced in the forum................
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jrawle
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #16 - Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:17pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 15th, 2008 at 2:03pm:
So far as I am aware the caller is not charged for this service as they just get the usual free network announcement that the phone is off or not available at present.

Are those messages free? Even when calling from a landline? I thought that as far as the caller's provider was concerned, the call had been connected, and that such a message was no different from going straight through to voicemail.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #17 - Nov 16th, 2008 at 12:19am
 
jrawle wrote on Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:17pm:
Are those messages free? Even when calling from a landline? I thought that as far as the caller's provider was concerned, the call had been connected, and that such a message was no different from going straight through to voicemail.


No those messages used to be chargeable but no longer are if the phone is off or out of coverage.

It appears O2's game is to make their equivalent of Call Catcher chargeable by not going straight to a network message (which cannot be charged) but first playing some intervening message in which you physically agree to be charged for the transmission of their equivalent of a Call Catcher text message to the person you are calling.  If they don't obtain your agreement to the charge then it will be illegal.

It does of course seem an obvious consistency that you can be connected to a voicemail or answerphone without agreeing to pay a charge but I think Ofcom's response will be that this is as good as speaking to the caller as you can still leave them a message.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #18 - Nov 16th, 2008 at 7:49pm
 
On the issue of the protocol and courtesy associated with call waiting and voicemail.

I have both features on both my landline and mobile and use them. If someone makes a call to me that incurs a cost in only speaking to my voicemail then I am happy to myself incur the cost of calling back, if the purpose of the call cannot be achieved by the message being left for me. I see that as nothing more than a duty that falls on me by allowing calls to be answered on my behalf when I am not personally available. As I see it, anyone who is not prepared to accept this responsibility should not be using a voicemail service.

If costs are incurred as a result of a pointless connnection to an voicemail service service then that is simply part of the discourtesy that is caused by the fact that the message would not receive attention.

Those who call me never incur any greater cost than that which they expected to incur, so I cannot see the problem. If my telephone service providers give me the option of not having calls automatically answered when I am unavailable then all the responsibility is placed on me to use their services properly.

Are there any cases where the principles outlined above do not apply, or cannot be followed?

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NGMsGhost
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #19 - Nov 16th, 2008 at 8:49pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 16th, 2008 at 7:49pm:
Are there any cases where the principles outlined above do not apply, or cannot be followed?


You seem not to have allowed for people who do not wish to speak to an answerphone at all on principal but are still made to pay for having a call answered by a machine on which they do not wish to leave a mesage.

Secondly you have not allowed for a scenario where you are away on holiday overseas and someone leaves one message to which you have still not responded and then calls back again and has to pay to find you are still away even though they will not wish to leave another message for you.

The bottom line point that people are making and that you seem to miss is that with voicemail systems it would be possible to announce the person is not answering but that if you wish you can leave a voicemail message for them but there is a charge for doing so and you can also therefore decided not to do so at no charge.  However as answerphones started off with simple analogue telephone answering machines that had to physically answer the line to play a message telecoms companies have taken advantage of this by setting up voicemail systems the same way where they earn huge amounts in minimum charges and connection fees  (that BT has doubled in the last five years) for a call where the caller gets no useful service.

If Ofcom were any good as a regulator instead of being a covert trade association for the telecoms industry they should have come down on this like a tongue of bricks and demanded that voicemail systems gave the option not to leave a message at no charge.  This was only fair and reasonable as the number of calls being terminated by voicemail systems went through the roof and call revenue from real (non voicemail and answerphone related) calls still remained the same.

Instead BT in particular has used a 100% increase in the cost of these immediately hung up calls to blackmail most people in to signing up for calling plans as being the only way not to suffer a high marginal cost every time one of these dead answerphone/voicemail connections where no message is left occurs.  This is especially grossly unfair to single person households who generally do not make enough calls to recover the fixed cost of the calling plans.

So in summary you have missed rather a large amount of the argument on this particular question by only assessing it at a superficial level.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #20 - Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:42pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 16th, 2008 at 8:49pm:
You seem not to have allowed for people who do not wish to speak to an answerphone at all on principal but are still made to pay for having a call answered by a machine on which they do not wish to leave a mesage.


If I did not think that my voicemail provided an acceptable replacement for me answering the phone in person, when I was unable to do so, then I would not use it. If for any reason, e.g. a holiday, I would not be able to attend to messages for some days, then I would turn the service off. I would consider it to be a great discourtesy to allow messages to collect up unattanded for several days.

Whilst I respect the reluctance of some callers to contact me via message when I am unavailable, I decide to use a voicemail service. I see this situation as being little different to that where a family member answered the phone whilst I was out, and offered to provide the same service in person.

As things stand it is left to the caller to decide how to deal with a voicemail service, if the called party chooses to deploy one, just as they must decide about whether or not to leave a message with a person. I trust that those who do not wish to give messages instruct those they call not to allow family members, colleagues or assistants to answer their calls.


If telephone service providers were to be able to advise callers when a call was being answered by voicemail rather than a person picking up the phone, then we would have been able to eliminate one of the major causes of Silent Calls many years ago.

Where an automated calling device is used it is often desired to detect cases where an answering service has taken a call, so as to avoid deploying an agent. There is no facility provided to support this approach, so call centres have been using seriously inaccurate Answering Machine Detection technnology. Every time that this registers a "false positive", it results in a Silent Call.

I have often argued that the fact that a call is being answered by a machine rather than a person should be declared in advance so that the caller can decide whether or not to proceed. This would be of great benefit for outbound calls from call centres, as it would enable accurate AMD. It would also be valuable for inbound calls to call centres. Such a facility would enable callers to a) avoid waiting in a queue if we did not wish to, b) to take advantage of an array of menu options only when this was of benefit and c) connect to those who announced in advance that they offered the facility of a callback at the first opportunity when the person required became available.

The telephone service providers in general have not yet responded to this need, so it is left to telephone users to deal with the reality of the present situation responsibly. (Ofcom has recently at last declared that "false positive AMD calls" will henceforward be classed as Silent Calls. With AMD thereby effectively outlawed the outbound call centre industry should be allied with the objectives of those pursuing the points in this thread.)

I fully appreciate the desire to press telephone companies to extend their service offerings, and it seems that some are starting to respond. I support such pressure, but cannot agree that they should be compelled to offer this feature by regulatory imposition, no matter how beneficial it may be.

My only point is that the present situation should not be used as an excuse by telephone users not to accept responsibility for the way in which they use the services that are available. This applies to use of AMD by call centres, as well as a failure to turn off an answering service that may be enabled by default, by those unprepared to use it properly.
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jrawle
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #21 - Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:30am
 
I dislike leaving messages on answering machines because, quite frankly, I feel awkward and ridiculous doing so. Unlike a normal call, where it's a two-way conversation which moves along naturally through prompts and questions the two parties give each other, with an answerphone the caller is just presented with a brief message then silence at which to record a message.

SilentCallsVictim does have a point that people using voicemail must have the courtesy to call back anyone who leaves the message. But if he were to use the 1571 service from BT, I'm sure he'd have fun disabling it every time he went on holiday (I'm not even sure BT would allow this). There is also the issue that people may not check their voicemail very often. If you need to speak to someone today, leaving a message is no good: BT 1571 users typically have to lift their phone to hear the intermittent tone. If they don't make any calls for the rest of the day, and don't think to check, they aren't going to call back. So the caller has to call again later to make sure.

With a conventional answering machine, it's possible to hang up before the machine kicks in. What I hate about 1571 is that if the line is engaged, it goes through to the machine immediately without warning, and without giving me any time to prepare what I'm going to say.

As NGM says, in this day and age, there's no technical reason why voicemail has to work like an old-fashioned answerphone, where the call has to be connected to hear the recorded message. The fact is, phone companies use 1571 services to make extra money out of the "connection charges". They know they can't charge for a traditional engaged tone, so by persuading people to take the "wonderful, free service" that is 1571, they gain lots of extra revenue.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #22 - Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:53am
 
Whether or not the receipt of income from connection charges on wasted calls is a genuine reason for the over-promotion of under-featured voicemail services, it is the responsibility of those who cannot use a voicemail service responsibly, or are aware that their callers will not wish to use it, to turn it off.

If, as is suggested, they are unable to do so, then that is a different matter. It would be quite unacceptable for such an unwanted feature to be forced on customers.

For the record, I use the advanced (and under-promoted) BT Callminder Plus facility, combined with call waiting. Callminder Plus has the advantage of providing a notification to my mobile whenever a message is left on my landline. This enables me to respond immediately whenever a message is left and also avoids the need to check for the interupted dial tone. I am happy to pay a premium for this advanced facility.

I have always been fiercely critical of those who have voicemail systems that they do not use properly. This has mainly been in the business environment, but the same point applies to personal telephones.
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #23 - Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:27pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 16th, 2008 at 12:19am:
[It appears O2's game is to make their equivalent of Call Catcher chargeable by not going straight to a network message (which cannot be charged) but first playing some intervening message in which you physically agree to be charged for the transmission of their equivalent of a Call Catcher text message to the person you are calling.  If they don't obtain your agreement to the charge then it will be illegal.

I don't think it works quite like this. You're not charged for a text message, but as I haven't played with it much, I don't know about call cost, which I'll check later. Perhaps similarly, when I called a switched-off German mobile number a couple of weeks ago it was a couple of pence for the call, but not 12 pence for a text message.
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« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:52pm by andy9 »  
 
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jrawle
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #24 - Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:41pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:53am:
For the record, I use the advanced (and under-promoted) BT Callminder Plus facility, combined with call waiting. Callminder Plus has the advantage of providing a notification to my mobile whenever a message is left on my landline. This enables me to respond immediately whenever a message is left and also avoids the need to check for the interupted dial tone. I am happy to pay a premium for this advanced facility.

I don't think I'd have any objection is this was the sort of service people generally used (and only people who wanted it, and knew what they're doing). What I object to is the "free" 1571 service provided by BT and others - if, like me, you don't have this service, BT give you a hard sell whenever you call about anything else. Customers jump at the chance to have an extra "free" service, yet would have to be naive to believe the phone companies don't get anything out of it.
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cavaliersteve
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #25 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 12:19pm
 
1st I'd like to thank Dave for the for the 1760 number, as this seems to have worked.

2nd Quote:
Post by jrawle
I count the rings when calling a landline, and hang up before the 7th ring (which is where the answering service kicks in with BT).........................................


After speaking to some other people, they have the means to set the amount of rings before the answerphone kicks in, one of my friends had his set to 11, but I was caught out once when he had set it to 7, and again as someone else mentioned, when he was on the phone and it kicked in straight away, so counting rings is o.k. as long as your friend/s tell you how many rings they have it set for.

As to people dragging up old threads, does it matter how old a thread is? Some sites have so many threads that it can take a time to wade through them all, if it is that annoying why bother reading them and then posting comments.

I also believe that starting a new thread on the same topic means members have to trawl through more of the website than is actually necessary, isn't this the idea of posts to keep all views on one thread.

In fact on some websites I have been to, I have seen the moderators telling people off for just this, and in some cases they have either moved the post to the appropriate thread, or in worst case scenario's, just deleted them.
When the poster commented on this he was directed to the websites rules and regulations and asked to read them, where it stated this would be done.

So to avoid annoying moderators and regulators, I stick to posting to a thread that is relevant to my comment/s. Doesn't the words "New Topic" mean just that?

I apologise to anyone that this upsets, but I shouldn't have to, because I believe that just starting a new thread / topic because you can't find one that applies to your comments is being lazy!
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #26 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 12:33pm
 
cavaliersteve wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 12:19pm:
I count the rings when calling a landline, and hang uAs to people dragging up old threads, does it matter how old a thread is? Some sites have so many threads that it can take a time to wade through them all, if it is that annoying why bother reading them and then posting comments.

I suppose it depends on whether the old one is relevant. If it means repeating what's been said to a newbie, then I think it is best to refer them to the existing thread. I don't think that what has been said about answerphones 4 years ago is any less valid today.

cavaliersteve wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 12:19pm:
So to avoid annoying moderators and regulators ...

Ah right, so I'm annoying am I??  Huh Angry
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cavaliersteve
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #27 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:03pm
 
Sorry Dave,

I don't think that you read it the way I meant it.

I meant that I did to to avoid upsetting moderators (no you're not upsetting), I think you know what I mean by now.

I post to a relevant thread so that moderators won't get annoyed that they have to repremand me for posting a new thread when there is no need.

I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

I bet if I had said this on the phone we wouldn't be wasting server space.

BTW Happy new Year to you and all members and visitors  !!!

Hey what happened to my new website name suggestions?

nofunon0871 or closethedoorto0844 and itwontdoon0872
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« Last Edit: Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:10pm by cavaliersteve »  
 
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Dave
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #28 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 3:15pm
 
cavaliersteve wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:03pm:
I don't think that you read it the way I meant it.

Maybe I did!  Grin Grin Grin

cavaliersteve wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:03pm:
nofunon0871 or closethedoorto0844 and itwontdoon0872

Very good. I know some have suggested that we should become saynoto0871.
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Re: ANSWERPHONES
Reply #29 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 5:47pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 3:15pm:
Very good. I know some have suggested that we should become saynoto0871.


Unfortunately, saynoto*.com where * is 0844, 0845, 0871, 0872, 0800 and 08 itself are ALL taken already by cybersquatters... otherwise they would have been good to get just as an alias to the site.

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