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Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices (Read 52,976 times)
Tanllan
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #30 - Jul 20th, 2006 at 10:52am
 
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Things may perhaps improve a little once Mr Stephen Carter is sent packing (or according to him leaves voluntarily) shortly.
paid off? (presumably with full pension contributions...)
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #31 - Jul 20th, 2006 at 11:12am
 
Tanllan wrote on Jul 20th, 2006 at 10:52am:
paid off? (presumably with full pension contributions...)
When it comes to Ofcom staff the words Feather and Bed always seem to be inextricably linked Wink
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darkstar
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #32 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:23am
 
Hey there guys,
                  I work for BT and was given this forum address by one of the mods when he rang BT a few days ago.

Anyway, having seen the prices that we are launching for the de-regulation you dont need to worry. They are certainly NOT going up, however due to non disclosure agreements I cannot share what these new prices are. But belive me, its better than most companies are doing. Smiley
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kk
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #33 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 10:43am
 
Hi darkstar,

Thanks for the information.

I do hope it is good news from BT.  It will be interesting to see how BT  price 0870, 0871, 0845, 0844 and 070.
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KK
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #34 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 11:46am
 
darkstar wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:23am:
They are certainly NOT going up, however due to non disclosure agreements I cannot share what these new prices are. But belive me, its better than most companies are doing. Smiley


I think we know BT phone call prices will not be going up (how could they given how ridiculously high some of BT's prices such as EU mobile calls are) but what most of us are concerned about is the cost of the BT line rental.

On 30th June 2004 BT Standard line rental was £28.50 and customers got a £6.33 calling allowance with this taking the real cost of line rental to £22.17 per quarter.  But now line rental is £33 per quarter (with no calling allowance) a 50% increase.  This is because even those of us who never make any calls with BT are all forced to pay for something called BT Option One (which is supposedly a BT customer call discount package) just to go on keeping our BT line switched on and connected to broadband.  Although there is something called Wholesale Line Rental this is a sad joke as the price BT charges to its competitors is almost as much as that it charges its own retail customers.  As a result other companies like TalkTalk and the PostOffice cannot make a profit from line rental alone so their line rental is little cheaper than BT's and they all have more expensive 084/7 call prices.

As to BT's call prices I don't think they should be allowed to lower them too far as they still have far too much of the uk calls marketplace and their ought to be continuing pressure for customers to move their business to other companies.  Also if I were BT with a remaining customer base of people like my sister, who wrongly imagine their phone might stop working if they moved to another company, I wouldn't lower the call prices much further because most of my remaining customers would be the kind who would not leave BT under almost any circumstances.  Therefore lowering call prices too much further would only be damaging BT's profitability.  I doubt BT are going to start doing calls at only 3p fixed in the weekday daytime - no matter how long they are for instance?

I wonder who in the forum spoke to you the other day?   I had a call with a very senior BT person on its NGN call pricing the other day, although I don't specifically remember mentioning this website to that person.  However perhaps one of your colleagues pointed out that I was one of the main activists on www.saynoto0870.com?
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Dave
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #35 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 1:41pm
 
Notice how Ofcom is removing this piece of regulation immediately but will only start to do anything about 0870 until next year.  Roll Eyes

I should hope that BT's prices will not rise any more, especially as they went up [supposedly] to allow others to compete. What a joke; they just followed by raising their prices!

From NTL's Customerupdate
Quote:
We are changing our 3-2-1 Standard line rental price from £10.50 to £11 a month, bringing us in line with our key competitors. ...

Notice how NTL uses the word 'changing' instead of 'increasing', in an effort to make it sound not as bad as it really is.
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« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2006 at 1:42pm by Dave »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #36 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 4:59pm
 
Dave wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 1:41pm:
Notice how Ofcom is removing this piece of regulation immediately but will only start to do anything about 0870 until next year.  Roll Eyes


Surely you mean not until 2008 Dave? Roll Eyes  And not for 0845 until 2010 if at all even though I don't suppose there will be any 0845 dialup customers left in 2010. Shocked Angry
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Dave
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #37 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 5:27pm
 
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Surely you mean not until 2008 Dave? Roll Eyes

I thought that the outcome was that companies were given [another] year to rip off customers before making 0870 charged at geographical rates?!  Huh

Quote:
...And not for 0845 until 2010 if at all even though I don't suppose there will be any 0845 dialup customers left in 2010. Shocked Angry

I have pay as you go dial-up accounts with (as was) Freeserve and BT Internet. Up until a few months ago both were on 0845 numbers, which they had used for years. Now they have been replaced by 0844 numbers...

I'm thinking about creating a timeline that can be kept up to date with all this sort of stuff on. It would be especially useful to any journalists out there. It could have events like the following on it:
  • Removal of BT Standard
  • Consultations on NTS and this one, amongst others
  • Price changes for telephone packages (not just BT's). So NTL's price rise that it shamefully says is to bring it "in line" with its "key competitors" (see here) could go on there.
  • Introducation of BT Privacy making caller display free that was closely followed by a 50p increase for everyone.
  • Other micro increases like charging for calling number back on 1471 by dialling 3 and speaking clock.
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Heinz
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #38 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 5:40pm
 
Removal of BT Standard (forced migration to BT Together Option 1) - 1st July 2004

Introducation of BT Privacy making caller display free - 1st July 2005
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« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2006 at 5:41pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
WWW  
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #39 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 6:16pm
 
Dave wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 5:27pm:
I thought that the outcome was that companies were given [another] year to rip off customers before making 0870 charged at geographical rates?!  Huh


Its not like you to be so easily hoodwinked Dave.  After all I think we all originally hoped for the changes to only take place one year after the Ofcom consultation document published in December 2004? Wink  Or perhaps even the OFTEL consulation document that closed in December 2003. Wink Roll Eyes

I quote from PP 51 and 52 of Ofcom's NTS:A Way Forward Statement  published on 19th April 2006 - www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/statement/statement.pdf

Para 4.136 "Ofcom acccepts that some SPs may require more than 12 months lead time, to plan for the move to a new number range.  One of the benefits of allowing more time is that it will reduce the costs associated with number migration"

Para 4.139 "In the light of the above Ofcom has concluded that the proposed changes for 0870 calls (i.e resoration of the geographic link and removal of 0870 calls from the scope of the NTS condition) should be implemented 18th months after the publication date of the Numbering Review Statement.  On current plans, this means that the changes will come into effect in January 2008

Note the "on current plans" as we all know about Ofcom slippage!.  So one can imagine that 2008 could even easily become late 2008 or start of 2009! Shocked Cry
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« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2006 at 6:20pm by N/A »  
 
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #40 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 11:57pm
 
Quote:
darkstar wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:23am:
They are certainly NOT going up, however due to non disclosure agreements I cannot share what these new prices are. But belive me, its better than most companies are doing. Smiley


I think we know BT phone call prices will not be going up (how could they given how ridiculously high some of BT's prices such as EU mobile calls are) but what most of us are concerned about is the cost of the BT line rental.
As to BT's call prices I don't think they should be allowed to lower them too far as they still have far too much of the uk calls marketplace and their ought to be continuing pressure for customers to move their business to other companies.

I wonder who in the forum spoke to you the other day?   I had a call with a very senior BT person on its NGN call pricing the other day, although I don't specifically remember mentioning this website to that person.  However perhaps one of your colleagues pointed out that I was one of the main activists on www.saynoto0870.com?



Just to go over some of these points:

the basic line rental will NOT be going up, that I garuntee (unless I have been lied to). WLR companies are charged the SAME as BT Retail as we have to buy it from BT Wholesale the same as companies liek talk talk. That is monitered by Ofcom (or so we are told in training).

Anyway, I dont see what teh problem is with Bt being able to lower prices given that people ahve no reason to stay with Bt when they can currently get much cheaper offers from other people. We need to be able to compete fairly and on equal footing, something that isnt happening right now. The reputation we have built up is a fair one as we have HAD to build that up as we couldnt have a reputation for being cheap. Tongue

Oh as for the BTT Option 1, remember that actually runs at a loss to BT!


Im certainly not a higher up in BT, in fact I am a phone monkey. Tongue But i work in the Customer Options Team, so i get to compare prices across the marketplace. the guy i spoke to went out of his way to mention thsi site. Smiley And Im VERY glad he did as I also want to save money.
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bbb_uk
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #41 - Jul 22nd, 2006 at 8:33am
 
darkstar wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 11:57pm:
I dont see what teh problem is with Bt being able to lower prices given that people ahve no reason to stay with Bt when they can currently get much cheaper offers from other people. We need to be able to compete fairly and on equal footing, something that isnt happening right now.
I personally don't have a problem with BT being able to compete fairly my only concern is that they have the power now to raise prices as they still have significant market power (SMP).

If BT want to compete with others then why is that the following price rises have happenend - much of which weren't so long ago:-

1.   Line rental on BT Together Option 1 from £10.50 to £11.00 per month
2.   Extension of daytime rate to start at 6am instead of 8am
3.   Minimum call charge from 5p to 5.5p (6p for business)
4.   Evening/weekend rate after 1 hour from 1p to 3p per minute
5.   Call charge to Speaking Clock 123 from 20p to 30p
6.   Minimum call charge on public payphones from 20p to 30p
7.   Introduction of £5 late payment charge
8.   Call charge to directory enquiries 118500 from 15p to 23p per minute plus 40p connection charge
9.   Ring back charge from 10p to 15p per use - chargeable even if not connected after 45 minutes trying
10. Introduction of call return fee of 6p for pressing 3 after 1471
11. Introduction of call return fee of 7.5p for pressing 0 after 1571
12. New installation connection fee increased from £75 to £125

Now if BT want to be competitive then why introduce all these increases?  I realise they couldn't lower these prices but why not keep some prices the same?  What is happening is that when BT increase their prices the others just follow and do the same - this is confirmed with the linerental increase where TalkTalk, Telewest/NTL, etc have just followed by example.  Where is the competition here?

For us to use the cheapest possible provider and allow us to use multiple suppliers we need to keep our linerental with BT.  BT are fully aware of this and this is why they increased the linerental for those on Option 1 (their now basic lowest tier package) but those on Option 2 or 3, the linerental stayed the same?

Another example is the extension of the daytime rate and minimum call rates, etc - most other competitors (the main ones specifically) just increased theirs as well!  Again, where is the competition?

Most responses to this consultation expressed concern over the promises that BT had given to Ofcom about certain things - they were concerned about why it has been kept a secret, etc?  Most also expressed concern over lack of "real" competition!

I use the term "real" competition like that that exists for tariffs offered by the mobile networks.  These mobile tariffs (inclusive mins/txts) and other general things like free weekend calls to landline and any UK mobile, etc are competitive as evidence proves that when one network introduces things like free weekend calls, money back for topping up your PAYG phone then others have followed suite.

I realise that competition doesn't exist for prices to NGN's and these so-called free mins/offers, etc are subject to some other t&c but this is normal practice as in this country we very, very rarely get anything for free without some kind of t&c attached to it.

In fact all responses except those few mentioned by Ofcom were not in favour (or fully support) Ofcom's recommended option but yet, as usual, Ofcom ignored all these and went with their recommended option.

This is bad on its own but Ofcom went one further in their consultation outcome by making it sound that most responses were in favour of their recommended option but this is clearly misleading if you read the actual responses!

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darkstar
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #42 - Jul 22nd, 2006 at 8:45am
 
1.   Line rental on BT Together Option 1 from £10.50 to £11.00 per month: £11 is STILL operating at a loss, we are trying to drag back some of the money we are losing on this package. Basic laws of economics surely? If I ran a buisness I wouldnt want to sell by products at a loss....

2.   Extension of daytime rate to start at 6am instead of 8am: Personally I find the 12 hour days are easier for people to grasp. Other than that I cant comment.

3.   Minimum call charge from 5p to 5.5p (6p for business): again, welcome to inflation. BT has to pay people more (for example) and so has to find that money from somewhere. Or did you think they could charge the same price forever?

4.   Evening/weekend rate after 1 hour from 1p to 3p per minute: Seriously....such a petty point! How many people talk for that long without hanging up and re-dialling? We even tell them that when they go onto the packages.

5.   Call charge to Speaking Clock 123 from 20p to 30p: I dont know.

6.   Minimum call charge on public payphones from 20p to 30p: maybe that 20p wasnt enough to cover the cost of the upkeep?

7.   Introduction of £5 late payment charge: Well if people payed their bills it wouldnt be a problem. Wink But seriously, it costs just under that to follow up on 80% of the peopel who dont pay on time.

8.   Call charge to directory enquiries 118500 from 15p to 23p per minute plus 40p connection charge: this again I dont know.

9.   Ring back charge from 10p to 15p per use - chargeable even if not connected after 45 minutes trying: becouse it still costs BT to do this (to counter the chargeable even on no connection). The price increase I again dont know.

10. Introduction of call return fee of 6p for pressing 3 after 1471: I dont know, but I agree this seems like a rip off.

11. Introduction of call return fee of 7.5p for pressing 0 after 1571 : as above

12. New installation connection fee increased from £75 to £125: Yeah, this increase is way over the top for sure. I know Openreach charge BT Retail the cost, so I assume they gave us a price and we added to it in order to cover our costs. But again thats an assumption.


But BT wont up prices given that we are losing customers due to us being more expensive.
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #43 - Jul 22nd, 2006 at 9:12am
 
darkstar wrote on Jul 22nd, 2006 at 8:45am:
1.   Line rental on BT Together Option 1 from £10.50 to £11.00 per month: £11 is STILL operating at a loss, we are trying to drag back some of the money we are losing on this package. Basic laws of economics surely? If I ran a buisness I wouldnt want to sell by products at a loss....
If I remember correctly, Ofcom did an investigation into the costs involved for maintaining the copper wiring, etc and it was about £8/£9 (please someone correct me if I'm wrong  Wink ).

Quote:
2.   Extension of daytime rate to start at 6am instead of 8am: Personally I find the 12 hour days are easier for people to grasp. Other than that I cant comment.
That's the same spiel that BT used which is common for companies to use spiel like this to cover the reason for the increase.  "Simplifing prices" is another spiel used to hide the fact that prices are going up.

Quote:
3.   Minimum call charge from 5p to 5.5p (6p for business): again, welcome to inflation. BT has to pay people more (for example) and so has to find that money from somewhere. Or did you think they could charge the same price forever?
BT only have to pay other people for calls that may not end on their own network and given the number of customers on BT this is not likely to be high.  Look at the flip-side where the likes of TalkTalk, Primus, etc can still have lower minimum call charges but yet they pay more because all calls made from their network will end up on other teleco's like BT, Telewest/NTL, etc.

Quote:
4.   Evening/weekend rate after 1 hour from 1p to 3p per minute: Seriously....such a petty point! How many people talk for that long without hanging up and re-dialling? We even tell them that when they go onto the packages.
I agree petty but some women can gab forever including some kids and I can imagine some forgetting to hang-up the phone before the hour as they're too into their conversation to realise the time.  I realise this doesn't happen often but it still happens and it is still a price increase none the less.

Quote:
5.   Call charge to Speaking Clock 123 from 20p to 30p: I dont know.
For obvious reasons - ie to increase their prices

Quote:
6.   Minimum call charge on public payphones from 20p to 30p: maybe that 20p wasnt enough to cover the cost of the upkeep?
I agree the upkeep of payphones maybe expensive but the cost of making calls from them I'm guessing can probably cover this - especially if one makes the mistake of making a call to a 07, 084x/087x, 09x number (the 08x numbers are very common these days).

Quote:
7.   Introduction of £5 late payment charge: Well if people payed their bills it wouldnt be a problem. Wink But seriously, it costs just under that to follow up on 80% of the peopel who dont pay on time.
Some people maybe in financial trouble and have probs paying.  How can it cost £5 to follow up when its done automatically by your computers - the only cost is the paper/ink/envelope and the couple of seconds it takes someone to put it in an envelope.  £5 per account that is overdue based on the above sounds like BT are making money from those that do unfortunately pay late.

Quote:
8.   Call charge to directory enquiries 118500 from 15p to 23p per minute plus 40p connection charge: this again I dont know.
Again obviously to just increase charges and get more money

Quote:
9.   Ring back charge from 10p to 15p per use - chargeable even if not connected after 45 minutes trying: becouse it still costs BT to do this (to counter the chargeable even on no connection). The price increase I again dont know.
I don't think I need to mention why the price increased!

Quote:
10. Introduction of call return fee of 6p for pressing 3 after 1471: I dont know, but I agree this seems like a rip off.
Similar to above

Quote:
11. Introduction of call return fee of 7.5p for pressing 0 after 1571 : as above
As above

Quote:
12. New installation connection fee increased from £75 to £125: Yeah, this increase is way over the top for sure. I know Openreach charge BT Retail the cost, so I assume they gave us a price and we added to it in order to cover our costs. But again thats an assumption.
Although I don't like the increase I can see the reasons for this as I know sending an engineer out would cost BT a lot, including the new wiring required and connection to the local exchange.  As reconnections are currently (for how long now?) free then I can see that that reconnections are subsidised by new connections - maybe?

Quote:
But BT wont up prices given that we are losing customers due to us being more expensive.
Is there anything else they can increase that they haven't already recently done?

As for BT losing customers then I can see this being only small as most people even though they may use another supplier for calls, still pay BT for linerental. So BT may lose some of theirprofits when this happens but if they didn't keep increasing them then it wouldn't be as bad.

The only time BT really lose customers must be those that take linerental and calls from a supplier like TalkTalk.
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« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2006 at 9:14am by bbb_uk »  
 
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Re: Ofcom Consultation: Deregulation of BT prices
Reply #44 - Jul 22nd, 2006 at 9:16am
 
kk wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 10:43am:
I do hope it is good news from BT.  It will be interesting to see how BT  price 0870, 0871, 0845, 0844 and 070.
Due to revenue sharing, I can't see these getting lower unless its ever so slightly or its subsidised by an increase somewhere else.
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