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NEG propaganda (Read 704,098 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #645 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 4:36am
 
Keith wrote on Feb 5th, 2009 at 10:11pm:
Re Hamilton and Brookside is there anything we can do about these? ... Contact: Local press? Local PCT?


The PCTs are likely to refer to the fact that the DH is currently consulting on a proposed ban on use of 084 numbers in the NHS, and will state, perhaps rightly, that they are awaiting the outcome.

Local press have been found to be keen to pick up on these stories if there is a patient, or patient group, ready to comment.

It is important to make the point that there is an alternative if patients and practices genuinely benefit from the features offered by Surgery Line. The remaining term of the contract with Opal (Carphone Warehouse) could be completed using a 03xx number - the equivalent 0344 number is reserved for the purpose of migration. As this would demand conformity with the principles of the NHS of course the funding arrangements would have to change.

There is a website (see "
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" link in the footer of this message) that includes a detailed outline proposal for how the funding arrangements could be changed. It also includes examples of media coverage of the issue, extensive lists of examples in all localities and other relevant information. (Please present any feedback about the website directly, not through this forum.)

N.B. NHS services are not available to businesses, so VAT incurred as a NHS patient cannot be recovered.
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« Last Edit: Feb 6th, 2009 at 7:56am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Keith
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #646 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 8:20am
 
SCV - My anger wasn't at the use of the 0844 number (although i'm pretty angry about that as well) but the blatent lies and misleading statements that they shouldn't get away with and puts them in the catagory of a dodgy trader rather than a respected member of the community, a position GPs used to hold.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #647 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 9:08am
 
Keith

As we know, they are repeating information taken in good faith from those who claim to be experts in this field.

The point is that the lies are necessary to cover up the breach of the principles of the NHS which would otherwise be exposed for what it is. After the DH stopped them using 0870 numbers it only agreed that 0844 was OK, because (as is generally understood) it was misled by the same lies from the same source.

Respected members of the community or otherwise, GPs should not have to advise patients of the charge they impose for accessing NHS treatment. If they were in private practice then this would be an issue for Trading Standards.

If anyone wishes to argue that patients should pay towards the costs of NHS services as they use them then that is a valid position that could be taken. The NHS Constitution however prohibits this at present.
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Keith
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #648 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 9:39am
 
SCV,

Oh come on! Do you really think that every GP in both these surgeries is nieve enough not to realise these are lies or misleading, especially with all the publicity over 0844 numbers currently?

Do you really think that nobody has pointed it out to them.?When our local GPs went 0844 there was one hell of a stink. They would have to be blind deaf and dumb or stupid not to have checked out the evidence either originally or when the issue was raised with them. They are supposed to be analytical people. They know, but they refuse to do anything about it.

My wife is a Doctor - She is fully aware of all of these facts.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #649 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 2:07pm
 
Keith

It is hard to know how many practices saw through this originally and knew they would need to lie in order to go ahead with Surgery Line in the first place.

If the truth only dawned on them after they had signed-up to a lengthy contract, they would perhaps be most likely to rely on DH and PCT endorsement of their decision and stand by their position, rather than admitting their mistake. This would be especially true if the system was generally found to be an improvement over the previous situation.

Doubtless there will be many partners and staff within practices who are unhappy with this, as with many other, practice decisions. I would not expect them to all speak out in public.

I hope that the vast majority of GPs remain worthy of the status formerly accorded them, even if they may be prone to error and in the hands of practice managers over relatively minor issues such as this. I believe that there is politics in this as they seek to place responsibility for this cock-up on the DH.

We will shortly learn what position the BMA GPC is to take in response to the DH consultation. I hope that this will include a readiness to find a solution. If, as you suggest, a significant number of members of the profession are deliberate and persistent liars with no respect for the principles of the NHS, then we will have an unholy battle on our hands.
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Keith
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #650 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 4:41pm
 
SCV,

I see you caught caught out with 'thingy-up' as I have done in the past. It makes what you post look odd doesn't it  Grin

To be honest I'm happy to accept that many if not most probably did believe what they were being told when they signed the contracts, if those contracts were signed several years ago. It doesn't excuse those that signed contracts recently. It also shows a complete lack of morals to put this stuff on their web site now (or at least not remove it) knowing it to be untrue or misleading.

I would have a lot more respect for a surgery which said 'we c*cked up'. One that tells the truth, but doesn't think they have done anything wrong a little less respect for, but absoutely no respect for a surgery that publishes this rubbish. They either know and are quite happy to mislead their patients or are incredibly incompetent, in which case do you want to be their patient?

Once Doctors had universal respect. A combination of the 0844 scandal and the co*ked up Doctors contracts has lost that respect for many people whcih is very sad, particularly as I'm married to one  Embarrassed

Happily I am aware of Doctors who are very anti the 0844 scandal so I wouldn't want to go as far as the comments in your last paragraph. Yet anyway!
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #651 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 8:08pm
 
jgxenite wrote on Feb 5th, 2009 at 9:13am:
idb wrote on Feb 5th, 2009 at 3:06am:
The cost of this is high especially to
some networks and to the G3 numbers many patients use (25p per min).


That's rubbish - what numbers (aside from 09 numbers) cost 25p from a landline?!


They mean it costs them a lot to call patients on their mobiles. Presumably they meant 3G.

Note that they provide an 0870 number for callers from overseas. This should be in the database as it'll be free for some BT customers, and cheaper for everyone in the evening and at weekends.
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derrick
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #652 - Feb 7th, 2009 at 1:40pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 2:07pm:
Keith

It is hard to know how many practices saw through this originally and knew they would need to lie in order to go ahead with Surgery Line in the first place.

If the truth only dawned on them after they had signed-up to a lengthy contract, they would perhaps be most likely to rely on DH and PCT endorsement of their decision and stand by their position, rather than admitting their mistake.



Keith wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 4:41pm:
To be honest I'm happy to accept that many if not most probably did believe what they were being told when they signed the contracts, if those contracts were signed several years ago. It doesn't excuse those that signed contracts recently. It also shows a complete lack of morals to put this stuff on their web site now (or at least not remove it) knowing it to be untrue or misleading.



There is still a way out of these contracts,( if they really want to), under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (partIII), Misleading Price Indications.




Law and penalties

Under the Consumer Protection Act 1987, it is an offence to give misleading price
indications to consumers, and the maximum penalty is an unlimited fine.  Liability
can extend to the business which provided the number, if they gave incorrect pricing
information to the advertiser.

In addition, where Special Services have been marketed to businesses in a
misleading way, the business customer may be entitled to cancel the contract and to
claim compensation (which could include the cost of re-printing business stationery).

The above is from a Norfolk Trading Standards leaflet,( I can't provide a link as I do not have it, but NGMsGhost might still have it).

But similar advice is here from Hereford TS; - http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/business/trading_standards/detail.aspx?id=180805...




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pw4
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #653 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 2:41pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 7th, 2009 at 1:40pm:
There is still a way out of these contracts,( if they really want to), under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (partIII), Misleading Price Indications.

Unfortunately, the Consumer Protection Act wouldn't apply in this case as GP practices are businesses, not consumers.
The second paragraph could apply, but the practice would have to prove it had been misled, which could be difficult as anything in writing has probably been carefully worded.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #654 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 4:43pm
 
pw4 wrote on Feb 9th, 2009 at 2:41pm:
the practice would have to prove it had been misled, which could be difficult as anything in writing has probably been carefully worded.

Practices were clearly misled in writing - by the Secretary of State for Health on 24 February 2005 -

Hutton rings the changes on NHS telephone numbers

Quote:
The only special service numbers the NHS will be able to use in future are freephone numbers or those that offer patients a guaranteed low rate call, such as '0845' or '0844' numbers.

I have long been wondering if Mr Hutton retained a copy of the guarantee to which he refers, and who was the guarantor. His successor, Alan Johnson, would have a quite sizeable claim to make against that guarantee, or would be able to advise patients on how to claim on their own account. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence as to the source of the idea that this fictional guarantee existed.

Let us hope that a ban will be able to go ahead without troubling the lawyers, but with all parties accepting their responsibilities and contributing to an effective solution that allows the best possible NHS services to be provided "free at the point of need".
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #655 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 6:49pm
 
'Free at the point of need' will never happen even if the telephone numbers do get changed, going off topic a bit, there are still the ridiculous hospital car parking charges that have to be paid and these come to be quite a large sum of money if you have to make regular hospital appointments. I know this is a different subject and probably should be on another forum, but just making a point.
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« Last Edit: Feb 9th, 2009 at 6:50pm by sherbert »  
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #656 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 8:51pm
 
A fair point. There are other issues, including some (not all) aspects of car park charges and prices in hospital shops that are firmly on the campaign agenda, as there are circumstances in which they can breach the principle of "free at the point of need".

To hold this to the topic, what is distinct about the charges levied through use of revenue sharing telephone numbers by NHS providers is that they are incurred when there is no other service being provided other than access to NHS treatment. Unlike with the other cases, there are no circumstances in which they can be excused as being not charges for NHS services when the numbers are called by NHS patients.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #657 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 3:25am
 
We have another example here in Kelvedon: Council says 'have your say on 084', where a practice manager ...

Quote:
said she shall be writing on behalf on the surgery to explain that the number ensures a better service at an “absolute minimal” extra cost.

Even if the extra cost of calling the 0844 number used by this surgery were "minimal", in either absolute or relative terms - which it is not ...

this comment would still pose the question - "how much extra should NHS patients pay for more advanced surgical procedures, cleaner wards and greater personal respect as they use NHS services?".

For those who believe in a NHS "free at the point of need" the answer is "not one penny piece".  The NHS is funded by us all through taxation, not paid for by patients as they use it.


An edited version of the same piece is found in papers all around Colchester, as Campaign to say ‘no to 084’. Do we need to ask what inspired that headline?
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idb
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #658 - Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:27am
 
http://www.devonshirelodge.co.uk/telephone_system.htm

<<
[b]New Telephone System

NEG Surgery Line[/b]

This is a revolutionary telephone service, designed specifically for general practice. It has been in development for two years and ensures 96% of callers get through to their surgery first time. NEG Surgery Line™ has an ever growing presence in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Feedback from our patients has consistently expressed frustration with the difficulties experienced when trying to get through to the surgery to make an appointment, particularly at busy times such as Monday mornings.
After careful consideration, we have chosen 'Surgery Line' - a telephone system that patients find easy to use and has received a great deal of praise around the country.

Cost of calling an 0844 Number
Example 1

For most patients there is little or no difference in the price between calling the 0844 number and our old local number. Prices do vary, but according to the most common BT tariff, calls to the surgery from a BT Landline during opening hours would now cost 4.p per minute + VAT plus a 6p call set up fee.  

Calls to 0844 numbers now cost a flat rate of 4.26p per minute + VAT plus a 3p call set up fee.  

Calls from mobiles and other service providers may vary.

Example 2

The cost of a 10 minute call to your 0844 from a BT landline is 5p per minute + a 3p call set up fee this = 53p

The cost of calling a local number from a BT landline is 4.7p per minute + a 6p call set up fee = 53p

In the interests of fairness I would like to point out that after 10 minutes BT do become marginally cheaper.

Also the above costs include VAT and often the press and BT will not include this on their official releases so always ask the question.

On telephoning 0844 576 9965 you will be offered a number of options so that your call can be directed to the appropriate member of staff.

This means that many patients will actually pay less in total because their call is answered and processed more quickly. [highlight]We suggest you add our number 0844 576 9965 to your  Friends & Family list of numbers.[/highlight] [sup][***][/sup]

NEG WELCOMES GOVERNMENT CONSULTATION ON ENHANCED TELEPHONY SERVICES TO GP SURGERIES - December 2008 Please  click to view the statement by NEG
>>


*** According to BT Price List [Serviceview], Section 55:Personal (Residential) Customer Options
Part 12:Friends & Family / Friends & Family Overseas / Friends & Family Auto Update

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/public/current/Cust_Opts_Res_boo/3227_d0e5.htm#3227-d0e5

Excluded Calls

Calls to numbers shown in Section 2 Part 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 or 16 of the BT Price List with a Categorisation for Customer Options of 2, 4, 5 or 7.

0844 576 9965 is charge rate g6, categorization 5, and is neither "Eligible for Friends & Family (Exluding F&F Auto Update)" nor "Eligible for Friends & Family Auto Update"

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/public/current/Call_Charges_boo/1632_d0e5.htm#1632-d0e5

[b]Yet more lies from the despicable, deceitful and downright nasty NEG.[/b]

Now, where is Kath Simmons/Simons?
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« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:54am by idb »  

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #659 - Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:59am
 
idb wrote on Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:27am:

Members may wish to note that the page now on display is an update from that shown previously. This was used as an example of how NEG customers misrepresent calling costs as is seen here. The practice was notified of this.

The information on this page will shortly be updated to reflect the revised and still erroneous and misleading version; copies of both versions will be retained, awaiting the further necessary revisions.

The point about Friends and Family is totally meaningless, as this will be abolished from 1 April.


Some quick additional points:

The source of the information is given away by the word "your" on the first line under "Example 2". This should have been changed to "our", as it was under Example 1.

The author was clearly confused or working too quickly as revealed by the error "after 10 minutes BT do become marginally cheaper". It is the call to a "local" number that is shown to be cheaper than a call to a 0844 number by these (inaccurate) figures. There is no comparison between telcos.

The correct and up-to-date figures for the 10 minute call are 0844 (g6) - 57p; geo - 48p, or zero if subscribing to the "Anytime" option.

The advice to question whether or not VAT is included in published figures has clearly not been followed. A rate for calls to geo numbers, which included VAT at 17.5%, is taken as if it were VAT exclusive. There is no reference to the use of setup fees that are three price changes out of date or to the selective use of setup fees from two different tariffs.
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« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2009 at 4:40am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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