This thread would not be worth its name if it did not include at least one quotation from the quite extraordinary submission to the Ofcom consultation published here - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-numb....

The essence of the submission is an impassioned plea for Ofcom not to allow the benefits delivered to the NHS by NEG to be compromised by having to be transparent about call charges.
This is summarised in the following comment:
Quote:

The bare-faced honesty of this remark is quite astonishing. (All that Ofcom can address is the fundamentals that are common for all. Other issues of NHS policy are nothing to do with Ofcom.)

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Another piece of honesty is revealing. NEG indicates that Surgery Line is too expensive to be funded directly by a GP in the normal way - it relies totally on additional subsidy from revenue sharing:

Quote:

Actually Surgery Line started on 0870 numbers. The switch to the most expensive possible 0844 numbers occurred as the government was somehow persuaded that 084 numbers offered a "guaranteed low rate".

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Back on more familiar territory, NEG has the nerve to attack OFCOM, because it contends that the basis for its proposals is fundamentally flawed:

Quote:

The Department of Health has fallen for this (or at least it has failed to dispute allegations that it has fallen for it), the BMA GPC has been happy to go along with this (whether it truly believes it or not), many Surgery Line users are happy to repeat this and a large number of PCTs have been taken in.

Now that this assertion has been placed so clearly before Ofcom, let us hope that some effort can be made to distinguish fact from fiction in the public domain.

I make no allegation, but invite followers of this thread to see if they can detect anything familiar in the style of a comment added to a blog here - http://nhspatient.blogspot.com/2011/05/resistance-to-ban-on-use-of-084-numbers.h....

I have seen the word "bullying" applied to what are referred to as "anti-084 campaigners" previously.

Just for the record, it is only the mis-use of 084 numbers against which I campaign. Unlike other forum members, I can accept use of 084 numbers if it is possible for the level of the "service charge", and the telco's access charge to be declared openly. There are serious issues about whether this could be achieved, indeed I suspect that relatively few would wish to continue using these numbers if required to publicise the "service charge" which they impose.

I've just come across this Word document on the website of the Ashley Medical Centre in Bangor, Northern Ireland:

http://www.ashleymedicalcentre.co.uk/website/Z00256/files/NEG_RESPONSE_TO_DAILY_...

Its title is "NEG RESPONSE TO DAILY MAIL ARTICLE AND OTHER ANTI 084 CAMPAIGNERS"

It's linked to from the Practice Policies page (click on the Telephone System tab). It says at the end that it was last updated on 11th May 2011.

Is it referring to this Daily Mail article of 2 May 2011?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/bills/article-1721790/Millions-still-pay-premiu...

The first paragraph of the NEG statement is:
Quote:

What is the situation in Northern Ireland with respect to use of 084 numbers? The document talks about the Department of Health which only applies to England.

Why has no PCT pointed out that a letter from NEG or other similar Companys which are NOT the Telephony Providors - they are only the System ( Hardware ) Suppliers - is NOT appropriate - The Telephone Providers in NEG case is Talk Talk - THEY are the people that set the Charges not NEG or similar - it is because the PCTs have been mis-informed from higher up 

Has this been put directly to NEG and the like and IF they answered what was it and why are they lying to GPs about being the Telephont Providor

When PCTs ask for the Call Charge confirmation from GPs they should point out that a letter from NEG is NOT what is required to the PCTs request

I will answer my original Question regarding one PCT that I have been liasing with and when I informed her of all of the points that I have collected from various Threads and posts that I have found on this site regarding the mis-infomation that NEG has conned MOH and higher and she was horrified because the PCT had unwittingly passed this mis-infomation to the GPs that was passed to them

I then helped her onto this Site and relavant Sections - which she said would make very enlightened reading  

I then myself later found the Thead Titled NEG Propaganda which I will tell her of but tell her to start from about page 37 because earlier pages links dont work now and prices are out of date

Dave wrote on Nov 9^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

There has been extensive commentary on this story on the "Wyeweb" community web site.
See the items -

• Will you be phoning the doctor?

• 084 Telephone Number – Statement from Wye Surgery

• More on the 0844 issue

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On the more general issue of factual information concerning what we must now know as DAISY Surgery Line,
after seeing the document - Enhanced Telephony - THE FACTS:

• I have published a blogging - Daisy Surgery Line and "Enhanced Telephony",
  which aims to cover the issues comprehensively.

• I have also issued a media release and MP briefing - Daisy Group endorses "co-funding" for access to NHS services,
  which primarily addresses the issue of principle at the heart of my concern over this matter.

Members or readers are welcome to use any of the information and references in my published material, with or without attribution, although please take care not to do so irresponsibly. My circulation lists are extensive, but no harm need be done by possible duplication.

Perhaps it is time to resurrect this thread as the most appropriate place for a posting that may be of interest to viewers of "The Apprentice" and those following the threat of industrial action by doctors.

Now is perhaps the time for a businessman, who has publicly declared himself to be sickened by overblown claims and committed to the belief that command of the detail is vital, to address a simple question.

It may also be a good time for the BMA to be clear about whether it is encouraging greed by some of its members, or if they are the innocent victims of a foolish business decision.

These obtuse comments may be made clear by reading the following press release - Who is undermining the NHS - GPs or a private sector businessman? - and the open message referred to within it.

(N.B. Neither the news release nor the open message are issued in the name of the Fair Telecoms Campaign. This is of course, an issue which is currently high on the fairtelecoms agenda.)

It's good to see NEG repeatedly put into print the assertion that "calls [to 0844 numbers] do not cost more than an equivalent local rate call". It makes it easier to show that it's untrue.

NHS regulations require that callers pay no more to call a GP than calling a geographic 01 or 02 number using the same method (i.e. calling both from a landine or calling both from a mobile).

Mobile phone contract deals usually come with a number of inclusive minutes to 01/02/03/07 numbers.

Not taking into account the value of any text message allowances and internet access that is also bundled with many of the current deals, and assuming all of the minutes are used, contracts cost in the region of:
    *10 pounds for 50 minutes (20 pence per minute) to 100 minutes (10 pence per minute);
    *15 pounds for 100 minutes (15 pence per minute) to 200 minutes (7.5 pence per minute) to 300 minutes (5 pence per minute);
    *25 pounds for 300 minutes (8.33 pence per minute) to 400 minutes (6.25 pence per minute);
    *30 pounds for 600 minutes (5 pence per minute);
    *35 pounds for 600 minutes (5.83 pence per minute) to 900 minutes (3.89 pence per minute);
    *45 pounds for 1200 minutes (3.75 pence per minute).

These are approximate figures as each network varies their deals a little.

The inclusive minutes can be used to call 01/02/03/07 numbers. They cannot be used to call 0844 and most other types of non-geographic numbers.

If some or all of the included text message allowance and/or internet allowance is also used, the effective pence per minute rate for calling 01/02/03 numbers is even lower than the above estimates.

If only half of the inclusive minutes are used, the effective pence per minute rate for calling 01/02/03 numbers is, in the vast majority of cases, still very much less than the additional price of calling an 0844 number.

Calls to 0844 numbers cost 20.4, 25, 35, 40 or 41 pence per minute depending on the provider and the deal, and the majority charge 35 pence per minute or more.

Mobile phone 'Pay as you Go' deals are simply charged at a fixed pence per minute rate, with calls to 0844 numbers usually costing more than to 01/02/03 numbers. In some cases it is possible to purchase a larger amount of minutes for calling 01/02/03 numbers for a fixed fee. 0844 numbers are not included. Some of these plans are detailed below.

It is easy to compare the prices for 0844 numbers and for 01/02/03 numbers from the major providers either for out of bundle minutes on contract deals or for pay as you go tariffs. These can be seen below.

Three mobile contract

    *01, 02 or 03 number: free in inclusive minutes; 25, 30 or 35 pence per minute out of bundle (and only 6 to 8.5 pence per minute on business plans).
    *Add-on bundles for 01/02/03 numbers: 5 pounds for 1000 minutes, 10.21 pounds for 2000 minutes.
    *0844 number: 20.4 or 35 pence per minute depending on the plan and never inclusive.


Vodafone mobile contract

    *01, 02 or 03 number: free in inclusive minutes; 35 pence per minute out of bundle.
    *0844 number: 35 pence per minute and never inclusive.


Three mobile pay as you go

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 26 pence per minute (even cheaper with a bundle, e.g. 100 minutes for 10 pounds, 300 minutes for 15 pounds or 500 minutes for 25 pounds).
    *0844 number: 35 pence per minute.


Vodafone mobile pay as you go

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 25 pence per minute (even cheaper with a bundle, e.g. 100 minutes for 10 pounds, 200 minutes for 15 pounds, 300 minutes for 20 pounds, 500 minutes for 30 pounds).
    *0844 number: 25 pence per minute.


Orange mobile pay as you go Racoon

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 12 pence per minute.
    *0844 number: 40 pence per minute.


Orange mobile pay as you go Dolphin

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 25 pence per minute.
    *0844 number: 40 pence per minute.


Orange mobile pay as you go Monkey

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 25 pence per minute.
    *0844 number: 35 pence per minute.


O2 mobile pay as you go

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 25p a minute for the first 3 minutes a day then 5p a minute for the rest of the day.
    *0844 number: 25 pence per minute.


O2 mobile contract

    *01, 02 or 03 number: free in inclusive minutes; 35 pence per minute out of bundle.
    *0844 number: 20.4 or 35 pence per minute and never inclusive.


Virgin mobile contract

    *01, 02 or 03 number: free in inclusive minutes; 40 pence per minute out of bundle.
    *0844 number: 41 pence per minute and never inclusive.


Virgin mobile pay as you go

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 26 pence per minute (16 pence per minute on Daily Bonus tariff).
    *0844 number: 41 pence per minute.


Virgin mobile Original pay as you go

    *01, 02 or 03 number: 21p a minute for the first 5 minutes each day then 6p a minute for the rest of the day.
    *0844 number: 41 pence per minute.


Someone else may care to look at the charges from T-mobile, ASDA, Tesco, TalkMobile, etc, but they are unlikely to be much different to those listed above.

The most recent DHS guidelines at:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolic... specifically state the requirements apply equally for callers using landlines and mobile phones.


Calls to 0844 numbers usually cost more than calling 01/02/03 numbers.

0844 numbers are effectively banned for all GPs and have been since April 2010.

sherbert wrote on Jul 11^th, 2012 at 10:30am:
Have you contacted them since the revised/clarification use of 0844 numbers and reminded them that they are breaking DoH guidelines because it costs you more from a Virgin mobile to ring them on their 0844 than a geographical number?