Dave wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 4:24pm:
A little bit of both I suspect.

derrick wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 2:52pm:



Still no reply from Traveline 

On Friday 10th August I e-mailed the councillor mentioned in the LEP article with the question " why is taxpayers money being used" he had opened it on the 11th August but as of today had not bothered to reply to me, so I e-mailed him again with the following:-



He replied with this after 1 hour:-






   I have already replied to him in the same arrogant manner, and will now request the info via FOI.

E-mail received from councillor Tony Martin:-

Dear Mr ******, I have now collated the information I needed to get you a full, informed and reasoned answer. It won't suit your prejudice, but then the facts rarely do. This will be the last email I send to you. Another fact you won't like. Councillors in this country do not get a salary as you claim; we get a basic allowance, responsibility allowances and expenses for costs incurred. To business:

Traveline in Lancashire

Traveline in Lancashire is managed by PTi Limited, a company limited by guarantee. It is a partnership company funded by Lancashire County Council, Blackpool Council and Blackburn with Darwen Council and all commercial bus operators in the County with Directors appointed from local authorities and bus companies. It is a "not for profit" company and is part of a network of Traveline call centres throughout the UK.

Traveline was established in 2000 following a requirement from the Department for Transport (DfT) to create a national network of Traveline call centres using a single telephone number platform (0870). The 0870 608 2 608 number, originally used in Lancashire for transport enquiries, was chosen as it was a national number that was able to be routed geographically to the nearest Traveline call centre and was also able to create a small national income stream that would pay for the use of the number and generate a rebate to pay for the national management of Traveline along with small rebates to the regions throughout the UK and for future developments, like a national SMS service and website.

In 2006 OFCOM changed the way 0870 numbers could be used. It would have been possible to stay on the 0870 telephone platform but this would no longer generate income and nationally Traveline would have to pay to receive calls. Therefore authorities, like Lancashire, would require an ongoing revenue stream to fund the service. It was also a continuing desire from the DfT that the UK should retain a single number for public transport enquiries. The national Traveline Board, after consultation with the regions, opted for a new number 0871 200 22 33 whereby calls from a landline cost 10p per minute. This option was chosen as it would allow for an income to pay for the ongoing national management of the service along with future developments and future rebates to the regions when income through usage has increased. Appropriate reference is made to this cost on publicity material and has been agreed by the regulating bodies and Traveline nationally.

The Lancashire Evening Post article stated "The signs will give the revised Traveline number which OFCOM changed from the premium rate 0870 to a national rate 0871 200 22 33 number". The cabinet report submitted actually says "changes to the national Traveline phone numbers following an Office of Communications decision in January 2006 to revise all 0870 numbers". There is no mention in the cabinet report of either "premium" or "national rate" therefore the confusion appears to have arisen from the wording of the Evening Post article.

In Lancashire, LCC are responsible for the maintenance and replacement of all public transport information including bus stop plates. As all plates in Lancashire, approximately 8000, have the Traveline phone number on they need to be updated with the new number, which has already come into effect, but is running in parallel with the current 0870 number until January 2008. As part of a national requirement to promote this single number, LCC along with most other local authorities in the UK have to make arrangements to update all their infrastructure. External, commercial, organisations like Stagecoach, First Bus and Arriva also have to update their information and bus liveries.

Whilst Lancashire County Council explores all opportunities to use its budgets as efficiently as practical, it is difficult to accommodate additional expenditure resulting from costs outside its direct control. The recent changes in the Traveline telephone number and Government legislation/County Council policies on prohibition of smoking in bus shelters, which has required additional signage, it is necessary to apply for additional capital funding to assist in this task.

The change in the telephone number is out of the Local Authorities direct control, Traveline is part of a national public transport enquiry service and provides a valuable service to the people of Lancashire.

Yours etc,

Tony Martin


You can see the arrogance of the man re this quote from the e-mail:-  "This will be the last email I send to you."

Received today from Lancashire County Council, most, if not all is posted above,#21, but there is a bit extra, plus the link.

Dear Mr. ,

Further to your request made under the Freedom of Information Act, we are now in a position to respond. Each point raised in your email is addressed in turn below; and we will respond to your enquiry regarding the use of 0845 by way of a separate email to avoid confusion.

1)     Why is taxpayers' money being given to a private company so that they can change the phone number on their signs so that they, (covertly), increase their revenue from Traveline's phone number?

In order to answer this part of your enquiry, we have prepared the following explanation regarding the Traveline service and the manner in which it operates.

Traveline in Lancashire is managed by PTi Limited, a company limited by guarantee. It is a partnership company funded by Lancashire County Council, Blackpool Council and Blackburn with Darwen Council and all commercial bus operators in the County with Directors appointed from local authorities and bus companies. It is a "not for profit" company and is part of a network of Traveline call centres throughout the UK.

Traveline was established in 2000 following a requirement from the Department for Transport (DfT) to create a national network of Traveline call centres using a single telephone number platform (0870). The 0870 608 2 608 number, originally used in Lancashire for transport enquiries, was chosen as it was a national number that was able to be routed geographically to the nearest Traveline call centre and was also able to create a small national income stream that would pay for the use of the number and generate a rebate to pay for the national management of Traveline along with small rebates to the regions throughout the UK and for future developments, for example a national SMS service and website.

In 2006 OFCOM changed the way 0870 numbers could be used. It would have been possible to stay on the 0870 telephone platform but this would no longer generate income and nationally Traveline would have to pay to receive calls. Therefore authorities, like Lancashire, would require an extra ongoing revenue stream to fund the service. It was also a continuing desire from the DfT that the UK should retain a single number for public transport enquiries. It was the decision of the national Traveline Board, after consultation with the regions, to opt for a new number 0871 200 22 33 whereby calls from a landline cost 10p per minute. This option was chosen as it would allow for an income to pay for the ongoing national management of the service along with future developments and future rebates to the regions when income through usage has increased. Appropriate reference is made to this cost on publicity material and has been agreed by the regulating bodies and Traveline nationally.

The Lancashire Evening Post article stated "The signs will give the revised Traveline number which OFCOM changed from the premium rate 0870 to a national rate 0871 200 22 33 number". The cabinet report submitted actually says "changes to the national Traveline phone numbers following an Office of Communications decision in January 2007 to revise all 0870 numbers". There is no mention in the cabinet report of either "premium" or "national rate" therefore the confusion appears to have arisen from the wording of the Evening Post article.

In Lancashire, the County Council is responsible for the maintenance and replacement of all public transport information including bus stop plates. As all plates in Lancashire, approximately 8000, have the Traveline phone number on, they need to be updated with the new number, which has already come into effect, but is running in parallel with the current 0870 number until January 2008. As part of a national requirement to promote this single number, Lancashire County Council along with most other local authorities in the UK have to make arrangements to update their entire infrastructure. External commercial organisations like Stagecoach, First Bus and Arriva also have to update their information and bus liveries.

Whilst Lancashire County Council explores all opportunities to use its budgets as efficiently as practical, it is difficult to accommodate additional expenditure resulting from costs outside its direct control. The recent changes in the Traveline telephone number and Government legislation/County Council policies on prohibition of smoking in bus shelters, which has required additional signage, it is necessary to apply for additional capital funding to assist in this task.

The change in the telephone number is out of the Local Authority's direct control. Traveline is part of a national public transport enquiry service and provides a valuable service to the people of Lancashire.


The rest follows in the next post.

With the exception of Traveline moving suppliers for their telephone number then it would appear that for them (traveline) to continue to gain revenue stealthly (the very common method used these days   ) then they really had no choice except move to an 0871.

BT here provide some information for their customers using 0870 and in the links provided it becomes apparent that to continue using an 0870 will cost Traveline (in this case) an extra 5p/min (approx) for incoming calls on an 0870 once revenue sharing is prohibited.

BT don't appear to offer revenue share on 0844 * (even at 5p/min) so that would mean the only course of action to keep receiving revenue without us consumers knowing about it is to migrate to an 0871.

It kindof leaves the question, how BT can stay in business with regards to their 08x numbers when most (if not all) other suppliers of these numbers can offer things more cheaply and with more revenue?

Maybe if this was the case then Traveline may have opted for an 0844 number although not ideal it would still be 50% cheaper than their current number!

kk wrote on Sep 19^th, 2007 at 6:54pm:
I said in comparison to their current number which is an 0871 costing 10p/min from a landline.

However, from a mobile then either both 0844 and 0871 are same price or 0871 is more expensive i'm not sure.  As for payphones I really have no idea how much it costs for any numbers these days!

derrick wrote on Sep 19^th, 2007 at 3:31pm:


If it was a requirement, why do PTEs like Travel South Yorkshire and Metro, along with Transport for London (not sure if this is a PTE) use normal geographic numbers? Is it possible that they realise that using a non-geographic number is a total rip-off for their customers and so prefer to use a normal geographic number which people know will cost a certain amount of money for them (even be free in some cases).