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NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers (Read 240,593 times)
idb
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #105 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:21am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:14am:
Perhaps I see things too simply. If a feature of a non-geographic number is thought necessary for the delivery of a NHS service, with a 03 number the taxpayer pays for it, with a 084 number the patient pays for it. I cannot understand what grounds those who cannot see the difference may have for being concerned about use of 0844 numbers in the NHS, or indeed having any concern for the NHS.
I am not convinced that there is much, if any, disagreement within this forum with your statement above. My own recent points have simply been to address the misconception that a patient is always a taxpayer. This is clearly absurd.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #106 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:45am
 
I would love to agree, indeed I made that very point in the contribution that was selected as highlighting the point of contention, as shown below.

Quote:
Your post #85


I hope we can agree when I say that the cost of handling telephone calls to the NHS must fall (ultimately) on the taxpayer not on the patient.



What we are saying, they are one of the same.
...

When there is so much important stuff going on that is relevant to the campaign (as covered by my recent postings), this forum shows itself to be so out of touch by focussing so much of its energies on nothing more that trying to understand and agree on what it is that we are campaigning for. This is not unimportant, but we have little hope of being a centre for making progress if we cannot advance to the point where we are able to address the actual current issues in our discussions. I am lucky, I am not sure that many other campaigners can afford to use so much of their energy on what must look to most readers as silly internal squabbles.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:48am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Dave
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #107 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:13am
 
Thus far in this thread, the arguments advanced for the abolition of hospital parking charges in England are simply because the other nations that make up the United Kingdom have done it. Essentially, it seems to be a case of "I want what my neighbour has" without consideration of how it might be achieved in practice.

It has not been explained how hospitals in England might ensure that those using their car parks have business on their premises. I would be interested to learn how it is implemented in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


There is the recent news that the Government plans to introduce a system whereby hospitals will be fined if a patient is re-admitted within 30 days. This is allegedly so as to counter the ill effects of targets that result in patients being sent home too soon.

A news report on BBC television explained that only in England are hospitals paid for each treatment they carry out. It stopped short of explaining how it works in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so as to allow viewers make an informed decision.


Should free hospital parking in England come off, then will it be reported how much it costs to administer the new system?

What about the financial hole created by the loss of parking charges? I presume that what the journalists term "profit" is ploughed back into NHS services and not paid as dividends to "shareholders".
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #108 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:16am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:45am:
I would love to agree, indeed I made that very point in the contribution that was selected as highlighting the point of contention, as shown below.


Quote:
Your post #85


I hope we can agree when I say that the cost of handling telephone calls to the NHS must fall (ultimately) on the taxpayer not on the patient.



What we are saying, they are one of the same.
...
The highlighted portion is at the center of the campaign and I fail to see why it should be contentious. I would go further, as reflected by some of my recent contributions, and while others may disagree, and indeed may well have valid opposing arguments, my own position is that, generally, the cost of handling everyday general-purpose telephone calls (banks, transportation, utilities etc) should fall on the recipient and not on the originator unless there is some significant added-value element. As happens here. As used to happen in the UK.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:16am by idb »  

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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #109 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am
 
Dave wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:13am:
It has not been explained how hospitals in England might ensure that those using their car parks have business on their premises.
And this is one of the major problems/issues.

I have no fundamental objection to parking charges at hospitals in the UK, or indeed any strong views either way. I feel that parking charges and telephone charges are very separate 'beasts' though. I do, however, have (albeit through limited experience with one hospital in Kent) concerns regarding the implementation of a parking charge collection mechanism, which, with this specific hospital, was (and perhaps still is) similar to a parking meter system where one pre-pays for an estimated time. The payment machines seemed to indicate various negative outcomes should one overrun the allocated time, although I do not know what sanction would have been imposed if one was delayed by a significant time. Perhaps nothing. Perhaps a discussion with a parking attendant. Perhaps a wheel clamp. But the threat was there.

I would not expect to turn up at, say, Charing Cross hospital and expect to be able to park, irrespective of whether there would be a fee. Equally, a hospital in a rural area where the likelihood of abuse is minimal (abuse in so far as using the parking lot for purposes other than visiting the hospital) should not find it necessary to levy a charge for parking.

Perhaps a system could be used whereby an entry ticket is 'validated' by the hospital by those having a legitimate visit that allows either free or low-cost parking.

I am curious as to the typical charge for parking at a hospital in the UK these days.

To give some perspective from over here, Mercy hospital, just south of downtown Miami, charges $3 per 24 hours for self-parking and $5 per 24 hours for valet parking.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #110 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 4:08am
 
Dave wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:13am:
It has not been explained how hospitals in England might ensure that those using their car parks have business on their premises. I would be interested to learn how it is implemented in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I understand that the ban in the "nations" is a simple prohibition on NHS bodies raising money from car parking charges. Perhaps our friends from the relevant campaign can enlighten us. I am also very keen to hear comments on how far the changes that will be introduced in England are seen to meet the campaign objectives.

Dave wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:13am:
There is the recent news that the Government plans to introduce a system whereby hospitals will be fined if a patient is re-admitted within 30 days. This is allegedly so as to counter the ill effects of targets that result in patients being sent home too soon.

A news report on BBC television explained that only in England are hospitals paid for each treatment they carry out. It stopped short of explaining how it works in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so as to allow viewers make an informed decision.

The "internal market" whereby money flows around within the NHS, giving managers lots to do whilst making the system more efficient (!) was introduced in the 80s, long before devolution. Some of its effects have been corrected.

The "fine" is not an actually penalty, but a demand that further necessary treatment carried out after discharge is effectively done under a 30-day warranty, without further payment as if for a fresh admission. We must remember that these payments only come from PCT budgets, so this is probably just an explanation for why PCT budgets will have to be cut, whilst the overall NHS budget is protected.

Dave wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:13am:
What about the financial hole created by the loss of parking charges? I presume that what the journalists term "profit" is ploughed back into NHS services and not paid as dividends to "shareholders".
Those who have been following this thread closely know who will have to fill this "hole". It is "taxpayers", or as some would say, "patients".
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #111 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 4:10am
 
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:16am:
... generally, the cost of handling everyday general-purpose telephone calls (banks, transportation, utilities etc) should fall on the recipient and not on the originator unless there is some significant added-value element ...

I would add "... that the customer (caller) is happy to pay for."

I see this essentially as a matter that must be openly resolved between the recipient and the caller. There is a historic problem with 0845 and 0870 and BT, which we hope Ofcom is at last ready to finally resolve. 0844/3 and 0871/2/3 have picked up some of this problem, which must also be addressed. In common with this is the need for transparency in the cost of calling all PRS numbers now that BT's role in what is now understood to be a plural market can be redefined.

If there is transparency - the existence and the scale of the premium charge is seen and understood - I see no essential need for an external agency to get involved in determining what is and is not fair. (The high cost PRS industry regulates itself to protect its own reputation, which is fair enough).

The Department of Health would have had no problem in banning use of numbers that were declared as being "premium charge" (or something similar). Very few Hospitals and GPs would have had the cheek to use them. I believe that the same would apply to others offering numbers for "general purpose telephone calls" also including those such as HMRC and DWP. After having had the chance to present our own input, we await Ofcom's announcements.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2010 at 4:17am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #112 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 5:36am
 
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am:
I would not expect to turn up at, say, Charing Cross hospital and expect to be able to park, irrespective of whether there would be a fee.

As a regular patient at Charing Cross Hospital (now in Hammersmith) I can offer some direct experience. It was built in the 70s with a sizable underground car park. That is no longer big enough to accommodate more than the senior staff for whom it is now reserved (I do not believe that it has actually shrunk in size.)

The roads within the hospital site are used for pay and display parking, at roughly the same rate as in those parts of the surrounding streets where this is possible. Getting a space is not in any way guaranteed and there are no discounts for patients or visitors. The hospital admits that it cannot offer car parking, discouraging use of what little there is by strongly urging use of public transport, which is generously available.

I did once overstay my pay and display time and got caught. I was served with a civil enforcement order for a penalty charge. This was followed up by the agency engaged by the hospital. I enquired about the appeal process and was invited to send an email to the hospital (not the agency) explaining (as was the case) that my outpatient appointment had been unexpectedly delayed and I was unable to come out and move the car. Without any need for specific proof of the appointment, the penalty charge was waived. I expect that others may have had different and less happy experiences.

The one thing I know for certain is that if Charing Cross is prohibited from charging then this will do nothing more than perhaps release some free parking public spaces onto the local market, as I suspect that further areas will be marked off for junior staff parking. The few areas reserved for junior staff cars are presently "crush parked". It would do nothing to help patients or visitors, except those who were lucky enough to grab a vacated space in a lottery with much worse odds than those which apply at present.

I will offer one other personal experience. My father was a patient governor of a Foundation Hospital in Birmingham. They had a large open car park on land adjoining the hospital that had been acquired and was scheduled for building on at some unspecified point in the future. It was however conveniently located near to a local railway station from which a new frequent service into the city centre was introduced. Parking charges had to be set fairly high to discourage commuters and shoppers, so as to ensure space for patients and visitors. They devised a clever scheme which allowed outpatients to park for free, but only if they, or perhaps their driving companion, left the car park immediately after their appointment (an alternative system had been widely abused). Regular, or long term, visitors had the option of purchasing a heavily discounted "season ticket" with a note from the ward that they were visiting. These are just some of many complex features of a scheme that suited that particular situation; the point is that it worked and was seen to be reasonably fair. In fact, when I visited there in the evenings there was usually quite enough space to park outside on the street, which was not subject to restrictions after 6:00. I am sure that every other hospital faces similar tricky problems, to which there are no easy answers. In this case, the hospital would have probably had to let the developer buy the land to operate the car park if it had been prohibited from charging. (If anyone remembers the Labour party manifesto launch on "non-NHS" property, it was the same Trust, but a different site.)

As this thread seems to have been taken over by car parking, perhaps other members have examples to give.
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #113 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 8:45am
 
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am:
[
I am curious as to the typical charge for parking at a hospital in the UK these days.



£10 plus per day, minimum £5 in my neck of the woods. A friend of mine was paying £60 plus  a week to visit his wife in hospital daily for three weeks. That surely can't be right. Perhaps SCV thinks that  is acceptable but I don't.

London hospitals are not really a problem as there is a very good transport system there. The problem is outside London. For example my nearest hospital is over 20 miles away and to use public transport is impossible. To get to my local hospital for example would involve one bus, one train and then another bus which would take probably about two hours if all the connections worked. They used to run a 'free' mini bus but that has been stopped by the  local NHS or P.C.T. I can't remember who ran it. I think a taxi would cost about £40 each way.
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #114 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 12:14pm
 
sherbert wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 8:45am:
Perhaps SCV thinks that  is acceptable but I don't.

From the way the situation is described, I can see every good reason not to charge patients or visitors for parking at this hospital.

The provision of a mini-bus to the hospital for access from a nearly point which is more accessible by public transport would seem to be essential, especially if perhaps parking charges had to be generally applied to discourage parking by those not using the hospital. This would also be a issue for the local transport authority. I would be very interested to know why the hospital trust decided to charge in this case, and why the mini-bus was stopped. I assume that there is local campaign on the topic. From what I know, I would be delighted to offer my support.

I do however see this as a local issue (perhaps one of many), rather than the basis for a change in general NHS policy on car parking.
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #115 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 12:56pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 12:14pm:
sherbert wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 8:45am:
Perhaps SCV thinks that  is acceptable but I don't.

From the way the situation is described, I can see every good reason not to charge patients or visitors for parking at this hospital.

The provision of a mini-bus to the hospital for access from a nearly point which is more accessible by public transport would seem to be essential, especially if perhaps parking charges had to be generally applied to discourage parking by those not using the hospital. This would also be a issue for the local transport authority. I would be very interested to know why the hospital trust decided to charge in this case, and why the mini-bus was stopped. I assume that there is local campaign on the topic. From what I know, I would be delighted to offer my support.

I do however see this as a local issue (perhaps one of many), rather than the basis for a change in general NHS policy on car parking.



Ok, I appreciate I might be guilty of off going off topic on this thread but continuing with the car parking issue, I think the problems really originated when local hospitals were closed by previous governments and this meant patients and visitors had to travel further. I think, rather than a local issue to me, I reckon those folk who do not live in cities would have the same problem as us in this neck of the woods.

SCV.... in answer to your request about why our local shuttle bus ceased operating I refer you to this link, and if you trawl through it all you will probably understand it better than most.

http://www.crawley.gov.uk/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&ssDocName=INT13...
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #116 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 1:51pm
 
sherbert wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 8:45am:
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am:
[
I am curious as to the typical charge for parking at a hospital in the UK these days.



£10 plus per day, minimum £5 in my neck of the woods. A friend of mine was paying £60 plus  a week to visit his wife in hospital daily for three weeks. That surely can't be right. Perhaps SCV thinks that  is acceptable but I don't.
Thanks. Indeed it can't be right, and reflects what I said earlier - the implementation of parking schemes appears to be poor. I can't see why there isn't a concessionary arrangement that provides discounted fees for those patients and their visitors who need repeated visits for chronic conditions or multiple extended visits. Perhaps these do exist in some circumstances - I simply do not know. But yes, the headline £60 per week is not, I suggest, acceptable to many people.
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #117 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:03pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 5:36am:
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am:
I would not expect to turn up at, say, Charing Cross hospital and expect to be able to park, irrespective of whether there would be a fee.

As a regular patient at Charing Cross Hospital (now in Hammersmith) I can offer some direct experience. It was built in the 70s with a sizable underground car park. That is no longer big enough to accommodate more than the senior staff for whom it is now reserved (I do not believe that it has actually shrunk in size.)

The roads within the hospital site are used for pay and display parking, at roughly the same rate as in those parts of the surrounding streets where this is possible. Getting a space is not in any way guaranteed and there are no discounts for patients or visitors. The hospital admits that it cannot offer car parking, discouraging use of what little there is by strongly urging use of public transport, which is generously available.
Interesting. I worked at Charing Cross hospital in the early 80s and had no idea that it had an underground parking facility. I vaguely recall a street-level parking lot around the main entrance, but, as far as I can remember, this also was reserved for senior personnel and did not provide visitor or patient parking.

I would generally park close to Barons Court station or on one of the side streets off Fulham Palace Road. Not an easy task in the 80s, and I suspect even more difficult nowadays as it is probably all permit controlled. I have no idea what the metered rates for SW6/W6 are today, but I'm guessing they are high.

Completely off topic, but my lingering memory of CX hospital was the awful smell of diesel fumes from a generator below wafting into the upper floors. This diesel smell was unlike any other diesel odor that I have experienced.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:04pm by idb »  

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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #118 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:47pm
 
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 1:51pm:
sherbert wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 8:45am:
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:55am:
[
I am curious as to the typical charge for parking at a hospital in the UK these days.



£10 plus per day, minimum £5 in my neck of the woods. A friend of mine was paying £60 plus  a week to visit his wife in hospital daily for three weeks. That surely can't be right. Perhaps SCV thinks that  is acceptable but I don't.
Thanks. Indeed it can't be right, and reflects what I said earlier - the implementation of parking schemes appears to be poor. I can't see why there isn't a concessionary arrangement that provides discounted fees for those patients and their visitors who need repeated visits for chronic conditions or multiple extended visits. Perhaps these do exist in some circumstances - I simply do not know. But yes, the headline £60 per week is not, I suggest, acceptable to many people.



idb....what happens in Miami and other places in America?
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Re: NHS hospitals on 0844 rip-off numbers
Reply #119 - Jun 12th, 2010 at 3:15pm
 
idb wrote on Jun 12th, 2010 at 2:03pm:
... Charing Cross hospital in the early 80s

The area around the main entrance now has a good number of free spaces for disabled badge holders, a few pay and display spaces and many spaces used by ambulances and other "patient transport" vehicles. This reminds us that free transport is available for those unable to travel by themselves. The underground car park entrance is at the end of the south arm of the main block. Parking in nearby streets, with a limit of either 2 or 4hrs and with many areas reserved for residents only, costs around £2 per hour. The hospital rate is similar.

I am pleased to say that the diesel problem has either been solved, or I have been lucky in not suffering it.

Back on the topic, Imperial College Healthcare (the trust covering CX) has only geo telephone numbers. The main number uses a most effective voice recognition system. The telecoms manager has been instrumental in arranging use of the NHS VOIP network by local GPs, on geo numbers, providing all of the features offered by a well known commercial system much more cheaply.
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