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Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers (Read 76,131 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #15 - May 30th, 2008 at 12:22pm
 
Further to my previous posting; this may not help much, but Ofcom has now acknowledged the relevance of the CAT Judgement to various (unspecified) disputes:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/other/disputeref/

Amongst those which are relevant is that referred to in para 2.29 of the consultation document.
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nicholas43
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #16 - Jun 3rd, 2008 at 2:09pm
 
I've emailed money@guardian.co.uk as follows:

"Any chance of Guardian Money exposing Ofcom's latest muddle? Ofcom is failing, for the umpteenth time, to curb the 0870 ripoff. The Competition Appeals Commission has just issued a judgment that roundly condemns Ofcom's bungling over disputes between BT and the mobile phone companies. This judgement should have been widely reported, but has presumably seemed too technical for the daily press.

http://www.catribunal.org.uk/documents/Judgment_TRDs_200508.pdf

Paragraph 128, page 57, on the brown eggs analogy, is an enticing foretaste, but you need to get one of your best reporters to read the whole thing!

It follows, as Ofcom admit (in their usual inpenetrable code) here:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/other/disputeref/

that the hugely complicated solution to the 0870 scam that Ofcom is currently 'consulting' on, won't work. See paragraphs 2.29 - 2.31 of the current 'consultation' document:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/0870calls/0870condoc.pdf

Ofcom will be unable to hold down the price of 0870 calls to be the same as calls to honest 01 02 and 03 numbers, because the Competition Appeals Commission would overrule them again, if they tried.

The UK's telephone numbers are heading towards a complete shambles.

Calls from a landline to honest 01 02 and 03 numbers are now so cheap, that anyone who shops around can get deals offering all such calls (including the flat charge misleadingly referred to as 'line rental') for around £15 to £20 a month. Once you have such a deal, or if you are calling from a mobile phone, 'free' 0800 numbers are pointless for the consumer, and just make money for the telcos. Calls to 0870 are, and because of Ofcom's bungling will remain, expensive: typically 8 pence per minute, much more from mobiles. 0845 is still relatively cheap from a BT landline, but pointless if you have an 'all honest calls' deal, and expensive from a mobile. Meanwhile a host of other rip-off numbers are gaining ground: 0844, 0871, 0872, 0873, and the out-and-out swindles on 09. No mere human can possibly keep track of what it costs to call these, and what cut the outfit you are calling is taking."

Obviously I don't really understand all this, so it would be good if people who do understand it also contact Money Guardian - or other suitable Organs.
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Ofcom's Hidden Agenda to Let 084/7 Scam Continue
Reply #17 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 6:07pm
 
nicholas43 wrote on Jun 3rd, 2008 at 2:09pm:
Obviously I don't really understand all this, so it would be good if people who do understand it also contact Money Guardian - or other suitable Organs.


Nicholas,

You are clearly very informed and observant in all the interesting points you have made above about the Competition Appeals Tribunal but sadly the failure of Ofcom to tackle the great 084/7 calls ripoff is not the result of any form of ineptitude or incompetence on their part but is instead the result of the utter cynicism and clear contempt for the general public that has repeatedly been exhibited by its senior staff who have clearly secretly been following orders from the government not to shut down these scam numbers (many of which are run by important commercial friends of New Labour like Sky and Capita).  Unfortunately it would appear that Ofcom supremos Ed Richards and David Currie in fact seem to think that their principal duty is actually towards the future smooth acquisition of their respective knighthoods and peerages from New Labour rather than towards protecting the best interests of the UK citizen and the UK consumer (as Section 3 (i) of the Communications Act 2003 would appear to suggest to be their duty).

If you had been with us here for the last few years you would have come to the realisation by now that Ofcom is not incompetent or bungling.  Instead it is secretly executing a quite deliberate and utterly dastardly New Labour supported plan with the telcos to keep the multi billion pound 084/7 ripoff industry in business while giving a token and sham impression to the general public and so called journalists (who are so easily misled by Ofcom as for it to be quite shameful) of apparently being favour of bringing the scam to an end.

Note how Ofcom even still now allow 084 and 087 numbers to misleadingly be called Local Rate and National Rate on most domestic phone bills, even though this is not a matter they can fob off to the Advertising Standards Authority but is instead something for which they are directly responsible under their own General Conditions (which control all aspects of phone billing and phone bill content).

If you had attended the recent joint question session for Messrs Currie and Richards by the Parliamentary Culture and Business & Enterprise Select Committees and witnessed the shamefully ineffective questioning of these individuals by the MPs on those Committees and then quietly followed the assembled Ofcom party (comprised of Currie, Richards and about four other senior Ofcom flunkies) out of the Committee Room after the meeting only to hear them loudly joke with each other about the Parliamentary "Toothless Tigers" they had just been questioned by then you would know by now the kind of utterly deceitful, unprincipled, careerist, salary grubbing and completely pro telco centric personnel at Ofcom with which you are actually dealing. Shocked Angry Cry
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« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2008 at 6:11pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #18 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 10:08pm
 
nicholas43, this is a very good point and one which means that 0870 being reduced to 01/02 rate may never come off (not soon anyway), even if BT and other telephone companies want to do so.

Contrary to what you might have read, the consultation itself isn't about forcing any telco to reduce its rates. It's more about providing conditions where they could do so.

The Competition Appeals Tribunal (CAT) judgement is about how much BT pays the mobile networks for calls from BT to mobiles. BT would like to reduce this and figures where decided, but the mobile networks didn't like them, so went to the CAT. The Judgement is that the way in which Ofcom decided on the figures was wrong.

The same issue surrounds the telephone companies operating the 0870 numbers. The amount BT pays to 0870 telcos is currently regulated and the proposals are to drop this and thus allow this termination payment to be reduced.


I will post a fuller explanation of how it works, the issues and the proposals soon.
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« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2008 at 10:09pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #19 - Jun 8th, 2008 at 3:22am
 
To put something concrete on the table, may I offer my draft of a response to the 0870 consultation.

I recognise that some would think any response would be a waste of time, however I would be interested in any comments or suggestions.

Quote:
1: Do you have any comments on the pricing transparency options considered and Ofcom’s proposal to implement Option B?

Ofcom itself declares that its stated objectives could only be achieved by implementation of Option A. So far as transparency is concerned, consumers may consult price lists when considering which supplier to use or which package to subscribe to, they would rarely do so when considering whether or not to make a call.

This is why the obligation for price declaration falls on providers of “premium rate services”. If transparency of the premium rates levied for calls to all 08xx numbers is an issue (as Ofcom accepts that it is), then users of all such numbers (including 0800 numbers accessible from mobile networks) must also be seen as providers of "premium rate services" and subject to similar (if not identical) regulatory requirements.


The true question is however not about what Ofcom’s policy should be, but about its capacity to implement either of the specified options without effective legal challenge. As Ofcom itself now believes that it would not be able to implement either, this whole consultation exercise is effectively meaningless.


Paragraph 1.33 states that a measure which would be “effective in promoting price transparency and reducing consumer confusion over the pricing of 0870 calls” is seen to be “a comparatively intrusive regulatory intervention” that conflicts with Ofcom’s (apparently self-imposed) duty to “minimise the burden of regulation”.
    - This implies that Ofcom must only do that which is ineffective.
    - Most would believe that Ofcom should only do that which is necessary and likely to be effective.

Whilst the consultation is meaningless in itself, it does however raise important questions about the nature and extent of Ofcom's statutory duties and powers.


2-6: Do you have any comments on the "draft notifications"?

It is understood that Ofcom does not currently feel able to proceed with this inter-related package of measures because of threat of legal challenge. These should be presented for consultation at some possible future time when two conditions have been met, so that meaningful responses will be possible:
  • Firstly, when Ofcom is able to make proposals unqualified by the need to await the unpredicted outcome of current legal proceedings.
  • Secondly, when Ofcom is able to make some meaningful comment about which CPs have declared an intention to reduce their charges for calling 0870 numbers and which will be likely to take the alternative course of declaring prices.

Without a detailed understanding of the relevant regulations, one must express surprise that a requirement to make an adequate declaration of prices is considered to be a "special" measure or a penalty for not following Ofcom's preferred course of action!

7: Do you have any further comments?

It is a waste of public time and Ofcom’s resources to engage in a consultation when there is no clear indication of what the outcome is likely to be, nor even if Ofcom would be able to implement what is proposed.

The rapid rate of change in the telecomms industry has made the prolonged (and now further delayed) process of addressing the issue of all 08xx numbers completely ineffective. There is much evidence to support claims from some that Ofcom has no true desire to address this matter properly, having sinister secret motives. Whilst others would wish to be reassured that delays are due to incompetence, citizens must be unhappy with either explanation.


These are my views and my words, placed here freely in the public domain. I am not a fan of "form responses" to consultations, prepared and agreed by committees. I would however be happy for anyone who shares my views and would wish to express theirs in similar terms to use any of the above (words, sentences, paragraphs, ideas ...), but without acknowledgement. I believe that views expressed must be truly held by consultation respondents in their own right, even if others may wish to express similar views in similar terms. Perhaps I am being arrogant in assuming that anyone would agree with any of the above!

(All the above is subject to the intervention of moderators.)
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #20 - Jun 8th, 2008 at 11:05am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 8th, 2008 at 3:22am:
The rapid rate of change in the telecomms industry has made the prolonged (and now further delayed) process of addressing the issue of all 08xx numbers completely ineffective. There is much evidence to support claims from some that Ofcom has no true desire to address this matter properly, having sinister secret motives. Whilst others would wish to be reassured that delays are due to incompetence, citizens must be unhappy with either explanation.


SCV,

I am interested to see that you finally appear to be beginning to acknowledge the legitimacy of some of the conclusion that other longstanding members of this forum, in particular myself and dorf, have previously reached over the motivations of the telecoms regulator.

The main problem in my view lies with how Ofcom have originally tried to tackle issue of premium priced calls by doing so only through call price announcements and only for calls to a particular number range (0870) charging a higher price than the minimum allowed to that range.

Had Ofcom instead tried to tackle the issue of NGN pricing quite differently at the outset by rounding up all phone numbers that involve any revenue share at all on to a code that makes this fact clear (either 09 or as a compromise the unused 06 for lower priced NGNs at 10p per minute and below) and then clearly educated the public on the meaning of phone number prefix codes and that only calls to numbers beginning 01,02 or 03 were normal priced landline calls then the issue could have been addressed without falling foul of the Competition Appeals Tribunal.  Especially since the current efforts of the 084/7 industry to make their numbers seems like normal rate phone numbers are actually blatantly anti competitive.

Unfortunately Ofcom instead came up only with the always absurd remedy of intervening on 0870 call prices whilst not intervening on 0844, 0845 and 0871 that raised precisely the same issues of lack of price transparency and hidden revenue share.  This was then always going to leave Ofcom open to claims of illogical, irrational and discriminatory intervention.  Whereas had Ofcom ended the illogical and meaningless separation of NTS and PRS calls in to two different categories and clearly rounded them all up in to one camp where the consumer was paying extra for the call with proper publicity of those number ranges (no need for call price announcements if it was as simple as all numbers beginnin 06 and 09) then the problem would have been satisfactorily addressed.

In part Ofcom's actions reflect incompetence but having dealt with OFTEL and Ofcom over a number of years I think allegations of them in effect cosying up to the telecoms industry and being heavily in the pocket of that industry in fact form a far larger part of the problem.

Despite my mistrust of Ofcom as an organisation I would not advocate that anyone with an interest in the matter does not respond to the consultation.  However based on past experience I would not encourage anyone who does respond to the consultation to expect Ofcom to take any notice at all of any views that they express (or at least not if they are responding as a private individual rather than as a representative of a major commercial entity in the telecoms field).  Nonetheless a response should be made by all private individuals with an interest in the matter to once again put on the record the extent to which Ofcom then takes absolutely no notice of what the public thinks of their proposals.  This may then one day become relevant when Ofcom's activities and utter ineffectiveness as a regulator are investigated by either the Parliamentary Ombudsman and/or the EU Commission.  Unfortunately by then Ofcom's current chief gravy train merchants will have moved on elsewhere with their peerages and knighthood and will no doubt avoiding any form of consequence or sanction for so utterly failing to fulfil the remit they were given by Parliament under the terms of Section 3 (i) of the Communications Act 2003.Shocked Angry Cry
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« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2008 at 11:10am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #21 - Jun 10th, 2008 at 5:55pm
 
I just posted the below as a reply in a thread about BBC call charges but I think it is far more appropriately posted here.

It looks like Ofcom have worn us down so far that the main people involved with this site have even lost heart about bothering to respond to Ofcom consultations. Cry

Can we please email all forum members and get something on the front page of the website about these consultations closing on June 16th within 24 hours.

Thank you:-

Quote:
Ouch I see these consultations both end on Monday 16th June.  I thought it would be much later than that.  They normally run consultations for 10 weeks.  Indeed they are supposed to unless they can find a good reason to make them shorter.

I haven't seen any front banner ad on this website publicising the consultation or counting down the days to closure or any email from Daniel encouraging us to respond.

I know we all feel all consulted out with Ofcom and ICSTIS and that they never ever listen to what we say but it is still important to send something to show the public are discontented and that Ofcom are ignoring them.

Can Daniel get something out by email to all forum members by Thursday pointing out the closing date for responding is next Monday?  Also can a banner to an article with links and counting down be added today or tomorrow?
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #22 - Jun 10th, 2008 at 5:57pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 10th, 2008 at 5:45pm:
I haven't seen any front banner ad on this website publicising the consultation or counting down the days to closure or any email from Daniel encouraging us to respond.

I know we all feel all consulted out with Ofcom and ICSTIS and that they never ever listen to what we say but it is still important to send something to show the public are discontented and that Ofcom are ignoring them.

Can Daniel get something out by email to all forum members by Thursday pointing out the closing date for responding is next Monday?  Also can a banner to an article with links and counting down be added today or tomorrow?

In the past when this has been done it has linked to some pages on the site giving advice on how to respond. Discussion on these consultations has been small, as you can see from the length of this thread.

A agree with encouraging people to respond as we have done in the past.
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #23 - Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:03am
 
NGMsG, It is not I think that "the main people involved with this site have even lost heart about bothering to respond to Ofcom's consultations..." as you suggest. Speaking for myself, I have not lost heart at all, but I do believe that continuing to respond to Ofcom sham "consultations" is playing into their hands, with their time wasting and parrying games.

It is clear by now that Ofcom have no intention whatsoever of paying any attention to the opinions expressed by Citizen Consumers to their "consultation" points. To them it is all a game, a delaying tactic, an excuse for not yet having to do anything objective about the anomalies which they are only too well aware exist.

Nothing whatsoever will be accomplished by responding to any further Ofcom or PhonepayPlus sham "consultations". Recently you more or less indicated that you had now faced the fact that only action via parliament and the EU would ever now force Ofcom to fulfil their primary duty - which is to protect and represent the interests of the Citizen Consumer.

Any effort should be expended in that direction in my opinion; not wasted in responding to any further pointless Ofcom sham "consultations".
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« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:06am by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #24 - Jun 11th, 2008 at 2:19am
 
dorf wrote on Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:03am:
It is clear by now that Ofcom have no intention whatsoever of paying any attention to the opinions expressed by Citizen Consumers to their "consultation" points. To them it is all a game, a delaying tactic, an excuse for not yet having to do anything objective about the anomalies which they are only too well aware exist.

Nothing whatsoever will be accomplished by responding to any further Ofcom or PhonepayPlus sham "consultations". Recently you more or less indicated that you had now faced the fact that only action via parliament and the EU would ever now force Ofcom to fulfil their primary duty - which is to protect and represent the interests of the Citizen Consumer.

Any effort should be expended in that direction in my opinion; not wasted in responding to any further pointless Ofcom sham "consultations".


dorf,

I do not believe any great effort in terms of time or number of words should be invested in responding to these consultations.

However I do think we should respond to point out that all their NTS/PRS consultations are a sham and cannot be taken seriously and that whatever we the public say Ofcom will ignore us.  As they have to publish the responses on their website they won't like having lots of responses saying those kinds of things about Ofcom.

I agree it would be pointless to respond in any great detail to their proposals.  The key point in responding is to point out all the other consultations in which they and ICSTIS have previously ignored the public and that they still fail to achieve even their most basic duties like ensuring that the cost of 0845 and 0870 calls are accurately described on phone bills even though these are governed by their own General Conditions rather by ASA Advertising Rules.

I think it would be a mistake not to respond at all as they will then say everyone must be happy with their proposals.
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #25 - Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:34am
 
I agree with your point NGM'sG,

So long as responses are just a statement of position only, and do not enter into any discussion of the pointless issues which Ofcom regurgitate as a smoke screen all over again.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

"There is no point whatever in a Citizen Consumer giving their views again on the issues which you regurgitate, since Ofcom have proven conclusively and continuously their contempt for Citizen Consumers in their "consultations" and that they pay no attention whatever to the views of Citizen Consumers, despite it being Ofcom's principal duty under the Acts to protect the interests of the Citizen Consumer. Indeed it is clear that the principal reason that Ofcom has it's incessant plethora of "consultations" on these issues is to delay and avoid taking the regulatory action which they know they should take under the Acts!

I therefore make no response whatever to your detailed points herein, since I am not prepared to play your games any longer. Citizen Consumers have stated their position over and over again to you already. It is quite clear that you will not take the regulatory action which you are required to take by law, to protect the Citizen Consumer, until you are forced to do so by Parliament or the EU Commission."

I shall submit my response in that form forthwith.

Dorf
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« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:35am by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #26 - Jun 11th, 2008 at 12:58pm
 
dorf wrote on Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:34am:
I agree with your point NGM'sG,

I believe we have a modestly-sized consensus on this issue. I make essentially the same argument in my draft response, although I offer detail for the benefit of those who may read it when it is published.

Just one point. The term "citizen-consumer" is an Ofcom construction that improperly conflates its two distinct and potentially conflicting duties, as detailed in Section 3 of the Communications Act. Subsections 3 (7-9) highlight the fact that 3 (1) (a and b) are separate.

Ofcom's duty to further the interests of consumers applies to all consumers of telecommunications services. This includes public and private sector organisations who benefit from using revenue sharing numbers and call centres who make Silent Calls. Only those who offer defined "premium rate services" move over to join the telcos in the role of provider rather than consumer, and thereby fall subject to Ofcom's regulatory powers. Ofcom has no specific duty to further the interests of consumers of services provided using revenue sharing numbers, nor any specific powers to use to do so.

Ofcom is responsible for having fudged the nature of its duties, partly because this gives it a get-out when challenged for not discharging them, by protesting that its powers are inadequate. This is one of the many ways in which it fails to discharge its actual statutory duties.

This is not worth a big debate and fall-out, when we are generally agreed. I would however suggest that use of the term "citizen-consumer" actually gives unnecessary comfort to Ofcom.

(If we need to settle differences on this point, this may best be done by PM.)
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« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2008 at 1:03pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #27 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:56pm
 
I've responded as follows: Quote:
Question 1: Following the Competition Appeals Tribunal's decisions in the dispute between BT and the mobile firms, it appears unlikely that Ofcom can do anything effective to stop the 0870 ripoff. However, only option A would have fulfilled Ofcom's statutory duty to protect consumers.
Quote:
Question 7: Yes. Ofcom should fulfil its statutory duty to impose a rational and transparent link between prefixes and pricing. As more and more consumers have inclusive calls to 01 02 and 03 (either from a landline or a mobile) 0800 is becoming pointless, and should be phased out. 0845 is pointless if BT can hold their current prices for calling it, and should also be phased out. 0870 always was pointless, except as a ripoff, and should be phased out (maybe with exceptions, if there really are still appallingly badly designed burglar alarms and the like which can't be re-programmed.) 0844 is a disgraceful mess, but probably beyond correction. Therefore, organisations using 0844 and 087x should be required to state in all publicity, in letters as big as the number, "Calls cost x pence per minute, plus a connection charge of y pence, from a [BT/talktalk/Virgin/...] landline, and typically z pence per minute from a mobile. Of this, we receive q pence per minute." The reference to BT/talktalk/Virgin should rotate, say, monthly, on a schedule laid down by Ofcom.
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #28 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 1:22pm
 
nicholas43 wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:56pm:
" ... Of this, we receive q pence per minute."

Bravo - this is the key point.

The base charge for calls to a particular network is a matter between the caller and their chosen supplier, not the person they are calling. Unless Ofcom fixed all these prices, there is no way that someone advertising a number may know what they may be when the number is called.

The uplift used to provide income or subsidy to the person called is the key point on which transparency is required in the context of this issue. If they are content for some of this to be retained by their telephone service provider, then that is a matter for them. The value must be expressed inclusive of VAT, as this is part of the cost incurred by the caller.

Transparency of the base prices is surely a matter beyond dispute. If some operators impose additional charges, over their base price, for calling revenue sharing numbers then this too must be declared. The same principle also applies where, e.g. in the case of BT and 0845 currently, there is a discount off the base price at some times.

Transparency and simplicity are sadly often contradictory.
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« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2008 at 1:29pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: Ofcom consultation on 0870/0871 numbers
Reply #29 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 1:48pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12th, 2008 at 1:22pm:
The base charge for calls to a particular network is a matter between the caller and their chosen supplier, not the person they are calling. Unless Ofcom fixed all these prices, there is no way that someone advertising a number may know what they may be when the number is called.


Assuming they know what their network supplier is charging them to call 084/7 numbers but in many cases (especially Pay As You Go Mobiles with no access to call cost history of any kind and with 084/7 prices still not being given equal prominence on their websites and in their literature) the reality is that they do not.  And now Ofcom has decided that call price pre-announcements are not possible either...................
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