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Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consultation (Read 293,986 times)
idb
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #240 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 3:15am
 
http://www.ehiprimarycare.com/news/5538/gpc_enters_the_fray_on_084_numbers

GPC enters the fray on 084 numbers

13 Jan 2010

<<
GP practices can continue to use 084 numbers if they obtain confirmation from their supplier that they are no more expensive than making a local call - and the main provider of such services to GPs will guarantee this, according to the BMA’s GP committee.

Latest guidance from the General Practitioner Committee states that the Department of Health has been assured by the main phone service supplier Network Europe Group, which supplies 084 telephony services such as Surgery Line, that call charges are no more expensive than making a local phone call.

The guidance has infuriated a campaigner against use of 084 numbers in the NHS, who claims it is impossible for any company to guarantee the rates for 084 numbers that can be charged by more than 200 different companies.

The GPC says that as long as the tariff is equivalent to local rates and the practice obtains a written guarantee from their supplier that they are charging rates in line with local geographic calls “they will be deemed to have fulfilled their medical services contract.”

The guidance, which applies in England only, goes on to state that any legal action to challenge this, for instance by a patient, would be against the primary care trust and not the GP practice.

David Hickson, a campaigner against use of 084 numbers in the NHS, claims no company could guarantee calls were the equivalent of a local call because patients used so many different telephone providers to contact their surgery.

He said his own research showed that those calling a Surgery Line 0844 number during the weekday daytime will pay more than the cost of an equivalent geographic call if using BT public payphones, any landline package from Virgin Media, any pay as you go or contract mobile phone from Vodafone, O2, Orange, T-Mobile, 3 and Virgin Mobile, BT Unlimited Anytime plan, and current landline tariffs offered by First, Phone Co-op, Pipex, Saga, Sky Talk and Tesco Home Phone.

He told EHI Primary Care: “Health Minister Mike O’Brien gave a promise in parliament yesterday (January 12) that by December 2010 no patient would be paying more than the cost of a local call to contact the NHS.

"If this is to happen then all Surgery Line users will need to change from 0844 to the equivalent 0344 number. This will enable them to retain their contracts with NEG and Talk Talk, whilst also respecting the DH requirements and the principles of the NHS."

The guidance from the GPC advises practices entering a new telecommunication contract to have a clause inserted allowing them to cancel the contract if the company is not using an appropriate call tariff.

However, it says the DH has been unable to persuade NEG to insert such a penalty-free get out clause into existing contracts.

The guidance adds: “If a practice is tied into a contract which does not comply with the new regulations it must remain with its telecommunications supplier until the contract terminates. Thereafter, it will be obliged either to ask for a revised contract from the same supplier which complies with the new regulations or to find another supplier.”

Practices will be expected to review the arrangements with their telephony provider annually, following the directions issued by the DH last month, which the GPC says should take the form of obtaining a written guarantee about call charges.

The GPC says practices should note that revenue sharing has not been banned by the government and that there are no intentions to draft regulations in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Fiona Barr
>>
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #241 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 3:17am
 
http://www.healthcarerepublic.com/news/977055/GPC-guidance-084-numbers-worthless...

GPC guidance on 084 numbers 'worthless', says NHS campaigner

Susie Sell, healthcarerepublic.com,
13 January 2010, 00:05am

<<
Guidance issued by the GPC that suggests practices can continue to use 084 numbers despite a recent government ruling has been called 'worthless' by a NHS campaigner.

Legislation introduced last month asserted that calls to practices, hospitals and PCTs in England must cost less than premium rates.

However, GPC guidance suggests this ruling ‘does not mean that the use of 084 numbers in itself has been banned'. 

The guidance said: 'As long as the tariff is equivalent to local rates, and the practice obtains a written guarantee from their phone supplier that they are charging rates in line with local geographic calls, then they will be deemed to have fulfilled their medical services contract.'

It added: 'The DoH  has been assured by the main phone service supplier, Network Europe Group (NEG) that this is the case.'

The guidance also outlined that if any legal action should be taken to challenge this then it would be against the PCT, and not the practice.

However, NHS campaigner David Hickson said what callers pay is not determined by NEG, but by their own telephone service provider, and as such ‘any guarantee from NEG is totally worthless'.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #242 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 11:24am
 
The full text of yesterday's oral question and answer in Parliament has now been published:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100112/debtext/1001...

Quote:
GP Telephone Numbers

9. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): What recent guidance his Department has issued to GP practices on their use of 0844 telephone number systems; and if he will make a statement. [310024]

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike O'Brien): The Department issued guidance and directions to the NHS in England on 21 December, just before Christmas, that patients should not be expected to pay more than the cost of a local call to contact the NHS, including doctors' surgeries. GPs will have this year to end the practice completely and get out of any contracts that cause that to happen.

Mr. Robertson: I thank the Minister for that response, but he will be aware that the practice is continuing. He says that it must end this year, but there is an awful lot of this year left, so when does he expect the practice to end? Not only does it make it expensive for people to call their local general practitioner, but older people in particular often prefer a human being to answer the phone, rather than be responded to by a machine.

Mr. O'Brien: I agree that we need to ensure that this practice of some GPs charging more than a local rate for contact ends as quickly as possible. We have made it absolutely clear to GPs that they must get out of these contracts-a number of practices have signed up to and are legally bound by them-and they have the year to do so. We have engaged with some of the companies involved and, to be fair to them, they have said they are prepared to negotiate equitable arrangements with the GPs to see whether we can get them all out of this as soon as possible. They have all got to be out by 21 December, but we want them to be out now, or as soon as they possibly can be.

Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): This situation is not just in the hands of GPs; the provider that the patient is using is also ripping them off. For instance, when someone phones a GP's surgery on an 0845 number from a call box, the charges will be over the top, and people will still be charged even on the new 0300 numbers. Will the Minister examine why these patients are still being ripped off by their providers, as well as by GPs?

Mr. O'Brien: Our objective is to ensure that anyone trying to contact the NHS locally pays a local rate, and we need to ensure that such practice is adopted. If the hon. Gentleman has evidence to suggest that particular issues are arising, I would be happy to discuss them with him.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #243 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 11:37am
 
Source: Pulse

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=23&storycode=4124726&c=2

Quote:
Don't hang up on 084 numbers yet urges GPC
12 Jan 10
By Ian Quinn

The GPC has issued new advice to GPs telling them that they can carry on using controversial 084 numbers, despite a recent ruling by the Government .

A ban came into force last month on the use of phone numbers that charge the public or patients a premium rate to contact the NHS.

However, GP leaders have stressed that the change in the law means 084 numbers can still be used if call charges are no more expensive that those of the equivalent local calls.

The GPC said many practices valued 084 numbers because they improved patient access by providing extra functionality.

The advice reads: ‘The legislation does not mean that the use of 084 numbers in itself has been banned. As long as the tariff is equivalent to local rates, and the practice obtains a written guarantee from their phone supplier (usually NEG) that they are charging rates in line with local geographic calls, then they will be deemed to have fulfilled their medical services contract.

'If any legal action should be taken to challenge this, it would be against the Primary Care Trust (PCT) and not the practice.’

GP practices, it added, should obtain written confirmation from their phone service supplier that the charge for a call to their number is no more expensive than making an equivalent local call.

The DH had been assured by the main phone service supplier, NEG (Network Europe Group, a national provider of telephony services such as Surgery Line), that this is the case, it said.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #244 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 7:23pm
 
So, that gives greedy doctors freedom to rip off NHS patients who are also BT customers with their 5p/minute 0844  numbers (because BT's local rate for those without an inclusive calls plan is 5¼p/minute weekdays).

However, what happens to NHS patients who are also Virgin Media customers now that Virgin Media has in creased its charges to an incredible 9p/minute (in fact, I think it's more than that) for calling 5p/minute (BT rates) numbers?
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« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2010 at 7:26pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #245 - Jan 17th, 2010 at 11:25pm
 
Source: Fenland Citizen

http://www.fenlandcitizen.co.uk/letters/Patients-should-not-face-high.5943617.jp

Quote:
Patients should not face high call costs
Published Date: 30 December 2009
By Unknown

AS any Wisbech North Brink patient will be aware the cost of calling the surgery is very costly.

I have recently received an email from the Prime Minister's office regarding GP surgeries using 0844 numbers.

The email is in response to an online petition which lobbied the Government to ban the use of such numbers.

The email states "The Department of Health's ongoing position on this issue has been that patients should not be expected to pay more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number and, in the meantime, Ministers expect NHS organisations to continue to take this into account".

Why is it then that North Brink Surgery patients are still being charged extortionate rates to contact the surgery?

The email further states that: "The ban will be enforced as soon as the necessary legislative changes can be made. This will be early next year for GP practices".

So, it appears that North Brink are sadly going to keep on charging higher call rates right up until they are banned from doing so.

Is not time to get back to some good old fashioned doctoring rather than creating a business empire that is based on charging patients for a service that should be free at the point of entry?

Perhaps, there is a need for key members of the North Brink team to remind themselves what the NHS is all about.

"The system was born out of a long-held ideal that good healthcare should be available to all, regardless of wealth - and that principle remains at its core.

With the exception of charges for some prescriptions and optical and dental services, the NHS remains free at the point of use for anyone who is resident in the UK". (NHS Website)

I rest my case.

A SMITH

Wisbech

via email


North Brink Practice has been mentioned elsewhere in this forum. The alternative number that it probably wishes to keep secret is 01945 468900.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #246 - Jan 19th, 2010 at 12:06am
 
Fear not - victory is in sight. The most powerful political force in the land (apart from the Daily Mail) is on the case:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/896545-why-do-gp-39-s-practice-have-08444-No


Latest circulated briefing published.


And now a further interesting development:

Use of revenue sharing (084) telephone numbers in the NHS is now ILLEGAL
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« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2010 at 3:18pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #247 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 4:28am
 
Millions of patients pay 40p a minute to phone their GP - By Sophie Borland and Daniel Martin, Daily Mail.

The cartoon helps draw attention to the issue, but the article includes some very serious allegations (or claims) depending on one's point of view.

My response to the news is published here

...
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« Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2010 at 6:33am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #248 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 11:26am
 
I looked on the NEG website this morning and was disturbed to see the following:

"Government and BMA give Green Light to 0844 numbers".

I accept that this is a blantant untruth but they keep pushing it, and many people will believe it.

PS. Is NEG anything to do with Talk Talk, as I yesterday agreed to sign up with them. If they are connected, I will cancel the order.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #249 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:10pm
 
poppasmurf wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 11:26am:
PS. Is NEG anything to do with Talk Talk, as I yesterday agreed to sign up with them. If they are connected, I will cancel the order.

Yes and No. NEG is an agent of Talk Talk.

The 0844 numbers used by Surgery Line clients are provided by Opal Telecom (the member of the Talk Talk group providing services to businesses).

Talk Talk/Opal is the registered provider of the telephone service used by these GPs. (NEG is not a registered provider of telephone services.)

This organogram of the Carphone Warehouse Group shows the structure. It is perfectly correct to use the more familiar brand name of the parent company.

My belief is that Talk Talk should be encouraged to continue to be a responsible and trusted provider - and therefore assist these GPs in getting off 0844 numbers, probably onto 0344.

I would use your relationship with them to help press them to behave in this way.

We recently celebrated a decision by Talk Talk to include 0300 numbers in its definition of "local calls", which are offered free (inclusive) at all times, so that local public services would not be excluded. If lots of GPs end up on 0344, then this will have to be extended.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #250 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:59pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:10pm:
We recently celebrated a decision by Talk Talk to include 0300 numbers in its definition of "local calls", which are offered free (inclusive) at all times, so that local public services would not be excluded. If lots of GPs end up on 0344, then this will have to be extended.

In actual fact, TalkTalk has made all 03xx calls "local" for the purposes of its billing:
http://broadband.talktalk.co.uk/pricechange

TalkTalk has two packages; Talk UK Evening & Weekend and Talk UK Anytime. Both include calls to all 01/02/03/0845/0870 numbers during evening and weekend periods. During the daytime on weekdays (when most people will call their GP), local geographic calls are included on both packages and likewise all 03 numbers can be called for no extra cost. The difference is essentially that on the E&W one, national geographic and 0845/0870 calls are chargeable whereas they are not for Anytime subscribers.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #251 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 3:47pm
 
An interesting development in the Daily Mail story

At 12:56 today (26/1/10) NEG posted a comment - please do not report this as abuse - it must remain on the record.

This demonstrates two interesting points of view about the situation:

Quote:
With NEG Surgery line the cost of calls from a landline to an NHS body is no higher than equivalent geographic number. This is recognised both by the government and the BMA, who do not object to GP's using NEG Surgery Line.

Quote:
The government guidelines do not include the cost of calling from a mobile phone because these tariffs are set by the mobile carriers themselves and neither the government nor industry supplies like ourselves have any control over them.

It will be interesting to see if the Department of Health shares these views.

There is no way of creating a permanent link to this particular comment, so I have created a jpg image to show it in context. Friends are free to use this.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #252 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 3:54pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 3:47pm:
An interesting development in the Daily Mail story

At 12:56 today (26/1/10) NEG posted a comment - please do not report this as abuse - it must remain on the record.

This demonstrates two interesting points of view about the situation:

Quote:
With NEG Surgery line the cost of calls from a landline to an NHS body is no higher than equivalent geographic number. This is recognised both by the government and the BMA, who do not object to GP's using NEG Surgery Line.

Quote:
The government guidelines do not include the cost of calling from a mobile phone because these tariffs are set by the mobile carriers themselves and neither the government nor industry supplies like ourselves have any control over them.

It will be interesting to see if the Department of Health shares these views.

There is no way of creating a permanent link to this particular comment, so I have created a jpg image to show it in context. Friends are free to use this.


So are NEG saying that the Government/Industry DO set local BT/Virgin/Sky/etc telephone rates? What they are saying above infers that they do.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #253 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 4:15pm
 
poppasmurf wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 3:54pm:
So are NEG saying that the Government/Industry DO set local BT/Virgin/Sky/etc telephone rates? What they are saying above infers that they do.

BT, and BT alone, is subject to regulation of its pence per minute rates for calling the various sub-ranges of 0844 numbers. Its call setup fee, its rates for geographic numbers and the way it assembes packges are NOT regulated.

The assumption that NEG is trying to foster is that competition forces all other providers to mirror BT precisely. This is untrue.

There is also the implied assumption that BT should include 0844 calls in packages, which it does not.

As users of 0844 numbers benefit from revenue sharing, that money has to come from somewhere.
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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #254 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 4:19pm
 
Quote:
Up to 200 doctors' practices have switched to the controversial 0844 numbers in the past six months, flouting Government guidelines that no one should pay more than the cost of a local call to ring their surgery.

Which surgeries are these then?  Huh
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