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Is saynoto0870 ethical? (Read 34,495 times)
firemamba
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Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Jan 8th, 2010 at 2:46pm
 
Hi,

Surely if a company wants to charge for a service it is in its right to do so? Am I not free to not use that service if I disagree with its way of doing business.
Is it OK to "game" the system this way?
I find this site useful but I am wondering if this is the right thing to do?
Supposing that companies were wrong to charge for these calls(although I suppose it is in their right) does that in turn give me the right to turn around and "game" the system?
Any comments appreciated!




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Barbara
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #1 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 3:03pm
 
I am completely baffled by your post on this site.  Put your question another way, is it right for organisations, whether public sector or private companies, to exploit and rip off customers/potential customers/clients?   Examples - my bank makes an error, why should I have to pay a premium to contact them to rectify THEIR mistake?  - my local county council fails in its duty to me as a resident - why should it cost me a premium to contact them to rectify the matter? -  as a member of the public, I am entitled to eg certain benefits, how ilogical that it should cost me to contact the relevant government department to either claim the benefit or, more usually, correct their errors?  In all these cases, I have already paid for the privsion of the service and should not be charged again for using it.

Other examples, I buy eg an electrical item, it malfunctions, why should I have to pay a premium to contact the company to rectify/repair their faulty goods?

The ONLY examples of reasonable use of any kind of premium rate number, in my view, relate to some of those who use 09 numbers, for example competition lines or dodgy adult lines where, if the caller is stupid enough to use them, they deserve to be exploited.

So, in answer to your question yes, it IS totally ethical to make any and every attempt within one's power to avoid being the victim of exploitation and, in some cases, virtual robbery, by cynical, underhand organisations.  Indeed, I would argue further that those of us who are able to find ways of avoiding these numbers have an actual public duty to find alternatives and publish them as widely as possible for the benefit of those who are less able to fight for themselves.
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sherbert
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 3:16pm
 
Barbara, I was going to comment on the OP's post but as you have done so rather eloquently I feel there is nothing for me to add, except to say I agree with your comments 100% Smiley

Me thinks firemamba must be using one of these numbers himself and providing him with a good lifestyle Grin
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #3 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 4:25pm
 
The post is perfectly reasonable, not in the least baffling.

The most commonly stated point is that the charge levied by an organisation using a revenue sharing number is generally not advised. Because it is collected through a third party, who may add to or subtract from it, there is no clear visibility whatsoever. That is deemed by many to be unethical.
[I share this view.]


The point raised by the OP however relates not to the ethical status of the misuser of a revenue sharing number, but that of those who seek to publish alternative numbers so that those who are willing and able to access this site may avoid paying the premium, whilst others incur it.
[I see the database and the campaigning element of this site to be quite different, and sometimes at odds]


I would seriously question two positions. Firstly, that it is ethical to measure one's own ethical standards by reference to one's perception of the ethical standards of those whom one opposes; I say that it is not. Secondly, I have a severe problem with the idea that those who are stupid enough to participate in any form of lottery or to seek sexual gratification by telephone are somehow less worthy of concern than those who are intelligent and eloquent enough to complain about any injustice which they feel they may have suffered; if anything, I would tilt the balance of my concern in the opposite direction. The power that is held by the self-righteous complainer is one of the unhappy effects of our consumer society, not least by the way in which organisations are forced to adapt to accommodate it.

Where an alternative number offered is a direct alternative, giving precisely the same access, the only ethical issue is the additional cost burden that this places on other customers and users of the service.
[This would be an issue for those who have a very (perhaps over-)strong sense of social equity. Mine is very strong, but does not pass that point.]


In many cases the published alternatives provide an alternative route to the desired service, or to an alternative service. This raises ethical issues in respect of the caller and the organisation called. Some callers take great joy in putting themselves and others to considerable trouble in order to score a victory that is worth far more to them than the money that is saved (if any). Those who fail to recognise that some numbers are not fully accepted alternatives may suffer. Those who answer calls to ill-chosen alternatives may be subjected to unwarranted abuse by callers who attempt to redefine their job function and responsibilities or attempt to hold them personally responsible for all manner of ills practiced by their employer or commissioning organisation. It is arguable as to whether the web site encourages or sanctions such behaviour.
[I see those who demand that someone answering an inappropriate alternative number deals with their call as abusing that person, the organisation and the saynoto0870 database.]


A common ethical defence for the publication of alternative numbers is the suggestion that if enough people use the alternatives then the revenue sharing number will inevitably be taken out of use and that the loss of subsidy will inflict deserved punishment on those responsible for the misuse. I have yet to be convinced that these arguments are more than the familiar consumerist fallacy. The theory sounds great. I am however not aware of a single example of aggregated "consumer pressure" causing a revenue sharing number to be removed in favour of a published alternative. I would also think it unlikely that a tiny proportionate increase in the unit cost of handling some incoming telephone calls would have any significant bearing on the remuneration of the person responsible for the decision to use a revenue sharing number.
[Many “consumer” campaigns against those seen to be acting badly, notably boycotts, make the participants feel good but do not actually have any real effect. There are exceptions, so I am keen to know where use of alternative numbers has ever been seen to have forced a change in policy.]


We have addressed the question of how far an organisation can truly possess a "moral personality", beyond the subjective perception of those who deal with it, and the extent to which this can be determined by the use of revenue sharing telephone numbers, elsewhere in this forum.
[I address this point again below]


(Points added after initial posting are all shown in blue)
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2010 at 9:15pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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sherbert
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #4 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 4:34pm
 
Mmmm, I think I have just about worked out what SilentCallsVictim means,   Undecided  However  I still agree with Barbara  Smiley
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Barbara
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #5 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 5:03pm
 
Thanks, sherbert, I am still trying to comprehend SCV's post as it seems he is, as so often, looking through the opposite end of the telescope from the rest of us.   I frequently wonder at his link with this forum when he seems to differ so greatly with the aims of the majority of regular users.  I feel that my ethics/morals/principles have been insulted but cannot be certain......  I felt the OP was being either disingenuous or atempting a little mischief!
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Barbara
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 5:09pm
 
One further point to SCV: if, for example, when faced with the choice of a toll road or taking a different route which is free, am I unethical to avoid the toll and choose the free route (and, perhaps, publish it for the benefit of others)?   Indeed, whenever one is faced with the choice of having to pay extra (which is what we are talking about here) for something or choosing an option which does not cost extra how on earth can any reasonable person consider that unethical to take the no extra cost option??  If he feels yes, then I fear we have no common ground, if no, then what is his problem with avoiding additional charges on phone calls?
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 9:18pm
 
I have modified my earlier posting (in blue) to clarify my personal position, which sadly seems to be of more concern than the issues themselves.

For further clarification, I will confirm that for the private sector I see use of revenue sharing numbers as little more than an issue of price labelling. The fact that users of revenue sharing numbers do not themselves determine the actual level of the premium cost that is incurred provides them with a get-out.

I hope that Ofcom addresses this matter in the coming review, to set a maximum for the premium, over the cost of a geographic call, for each type of revenue sharing (and PRS) range. It can now impose such requirements on all providers. This would enable the phrase “calls cost up to x more than the cost of a chargeable geographic call” to be used in all cases and with confidence. If the requirements of the “NTS condition” are removed from BT as part of the recognition of it no longer holding SMP status, then that would disqualify any right to use BT rates as if typical.

I see the issue for the public sector as being quite different. Whilst the cost saving achieved by use of revenue sharing numbers in the private sector keeps other prices low, in the public sector this benefit is seen in levels of taxation (or public debt, i.e. future taxation). Apart from those cases where public services are delivered at a charge that can be declared, use of revenue sharing numbers, to subsidise the cost to taxpayers, is simply unacceptable.

I sometimes despair of the fact that contributors to this forum are invariably measured as being on one side or another of some great moral divide. Some project this same view onto the world in general. How can the Department for Transport be seen to have totally changed its nature and moral standing because it has now abandoned revenue sharing numbers in favour of 03xx? As with all other organisations, this was one relatively tiny decision in the midst of very many others. It was probably made by people who had no part in the original decision, but had been defending the status quo up to the day when it changed.

Can we turn our attention to the interesting topic of the ethical position of saynoto0870, rather than that of members who post and organisations that make mistakes, or maybe this position must be regarded as being beyond reproach in its own threads.
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Barbara
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #8 - Jan 9th, 2010 at 12:12pm
 
SCV, re the final paragraph of your most recent post here, I thought that is what we had been doing in confirming that we see the site as totally ethical, you (and the OP) seem to be the only ones with a problem here.

Re your comments about the private sector, there are two issues here, one regarding the dishonesty of making unspecified and undeclared additional charges or, as you term it, price labelling, the second relates to charging in a deceitful manner for those aspects of a service which should be included.  I think most of us on this forum find both aspects totally unacceptable.   I see after sales and enquiries as no different whether accessed by telephone or walking through a shop door and, so far, no one has tried to charge for the latter even though it probably costs more than a telephone system!!  As to how you can possibly say that to call a number that might differ from that selected by the company and make enquiry of the customer service operative answering is abuse ....well, words fail me.

As I believe others have said before, your sole interest with this site seems to relate to certain aspects of covert NHS charges whereas it has a much wider remit.    I wonder why you seek to undermine the efforts of those working so hard on behalf of others, I certainly appreciate their efforts.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #9 - Jan 9th, 2010 at 1:47pm
 
Let us clear up one point. Any private sector organisation that fails to fully reimburse ALL out of pocket expenses, or compensate for them in some way, when a customer has been the victim of an unsatisfactory product or service is failing in its ethical duty. If part of that expense is a premium charge for a telephone call then that should be included in the settlement. Use of revenue sharing numbers for booking, enquiry or after-sales service lines should be subject to proper price declaration, as fees may be deemed appropriate for these services.

Because we all own public sector bodies, we should not be in the same consumerist situation - the relationship is (or rather it should be) totally different. Where a fee has been charged for a public service, then its partial or total refund should be considered in the event of a service failure. Most public services should not be subject to usage fees anyway, and that includes those levied by means of a revenue sharing telephone number.

The failure to write about the possible abuse caused by ringing a different number and demanding the same service may be matched by a failure to read precisely what I had to say on the subject.

My concern about this issue is indeed focused on the public service, with the NHS at the head of the queue. This priority is set for a number of good reasons, not the least of which is "Surgery Line", although the "free at the point of need" mantra is another useful tool for campaigning. In almost every area of public service, use of revenue sharing numbers is wholly unacceptable. This is for reasons that are must broader than the shallow consumerist argument put forward to suggest their unacceptability in some limited areas of the private sector.

I do not believe that it is fair to describe my interest in these matters as "narrow". I think that this accusation would be more fairly levelled at saynoto0870 and forum members, if we are getting down to exchanges of this sort. I am very closely engaged with the way that Ofcom is dealing with the broader aspects of the issue, as referred to in my postings. I am surprised that nobody has commented on this, as I see it as paramount in the context of the way forward for the broader issues. I fear that many members are content to take the narrower view, expecting that nothing can be achieved, so that they can remain fixed in their opinions, with their prejudices reconfirmed.
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #10 - Jan 9th, 2010 at 3:15pm
 
I wonder if Dave, Daniel, other members on the admin team and NGMsGhost agree with SilentCallsVictim or is it only Barbara and I think that he has lost the plot.

Whilst I appreciate that SilentCallsVictim  does a lot of work doing the rounds in the television and radio studios and on his blogs and web sites and here, I have to say, l thought to consider myself quite bright, some of his post I find incomprehensible. Grin


 I thought the whole idea was to try and outlaw the use of these numbers, or am I missing something? Undecided
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« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2010 at 3:16pm by sherbert »  
 
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Dave
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #11 - Jan 10th, 2010 at 12:48am
 
The database of alternative numbers can be likened to going into a shop and saying that you don't want to pay the price shown for a particular item. With a telephone call this may be ringing a sales number because it's freephone, and requesting to be put through to customer services, for example. It's certainly wrong to abuse staff in a shop if they won't give you a discount.
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Barbara
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #12 - Jan 10th, 2010 at 11:59am
 
I'm totally with sherbert on this 100% but is anyone else?

As for Dave's post, no one has suggested abusing those who answer telephones on whatever no, SCV seems to be suggesting (see sherbert's confusion which mirrors mine) that merely to call an alternative number and ask the person answering to deal with the matter or transfer one is in itself an abuse, this is, of course, arrant nonsense.   On that basis, one should only complain then to the person who made the decision to use an NGN, usually an unobtainable director.  When I complain generally, I always prefix my comments with the statement that I understand the person I am addressing is not responsible for the problem but they are the only contact I can make so can they either deal or transfer me up the chain to someone who can deal with it, there is then no excuse for rudeness on their part.   Of course, there are times, as for example with Barclaycard who automatically hang up on people when a very blunt manner from the caller is perfectly justified (without actual insults, of course!)  Also, with regard to Dave's analogy, if I don't like the price in one shop I can seek the item cheaper elsewhere (not the case with customer services etc) - compare with John Lewis's "never knowlingly undersold"! (OK, I know their online service has an 0845 number but this can be cirumvented via their shops - oh dear, there I am being abusive again!!)
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #13 - Jan 10th, 2010 at 1:05pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 9th, 2010 at 1:47pm:
The failure to write about the possible abuse caused by ringing a different number and demanding the same service may be matched by a failure to read precisely what I had to say on the subject.

As the misunderstanding appears to continue, I will try to explain my point further. I quote the relevant paragraph as published, with some key words highlighted.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 at 4:25pm:
In many cases the published alternatives provide an alternative route to the desired service, or to an alternative service. This raises ethical issues in respect of the caller and the organisation called. Some callers take great joy in putting themselves and others to considerable trouble in order to score a victory that is worth far more to them than the money that is saved (if any). Those who fail to recognise that some numbers are not fully accepted alternatives may suffer. Those who answer calls to ill-chosen alternatives may be subjected to unwarranted abuse by callers who attempt to redefine their job function and responsibilities or attempt to hold them personally responsible for all manner of ills practiced by their employer or commissioning organisation. It is arguable as to whether the web site encourages or sanctions such behaviour.
[I see those who demand that someone answering an inappropriate alternative number deals with their call as abusing that person, the organisation and the saynoto0870 database.]

The highlights show the qualification of my comments that some appear to have been unable to read or understand. I will be happy to go into the meaning and relevance of each of these words and phrases, if requested.

I am unlikely to acquire any depth of shared understanding with those who subscribe (in significant measure) to the consumerist myths that competition is the answer to all of life’s ills and that the only way of securing the change we seek is by engaging in a formal complaints procedure.

I totally reject the former, and do all I can to avoid the latter when campaigning. I would be delighted to join in debate with those who seek to address the points that I actually make,  and am ready to offer clarification in response to a genuinely expressed desire to understand.

I believe that this is the proper purpose of a “discussion forum”, and find all of this presentation, challenge and defence of personal positions to be unhelpful to the cause that we are seeking to promote, as well as that of good debate. I believe that it matters little what I and other members think or do, furthermore I see little purpose in attempting an assessment of the moral character of organisations that use revenue sharing telephone numbers. We post here, using nicknames (rather than having to provide our full identity), so that we can discuss issues, not personalities.
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loddon
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Re: Is saynoto0870 ethical?
Reply #14 - Jan 10th, 2010 at 10:13pm
 

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 at 4:25pm:
In many cases the published alternatives provide an alternative route to the desired service, or to an alternative service. This raises ethical issues in respect of the caller and the organisation called. Some callers take great joy in putting themselves and others to considerable trouble in order to score a victory that is worth far more to them than the money that is saved (if any). Those who fail to recognise that some numbers are not fully accepted alternatives may suffer. Those who answer calls to ill-chosen alternatives may be subjected to unwarranted abuse by callers who attempt to redefine their job function and responsibilities or attempt to hold them personally responsible for all manner of ills practiced by their employer or commissioning organisation. It is arguable as to whether the web site encourages or sanctions such behaviour.
[I see those who demand that someone answering an inappropriate alternative number deals with their call as abusing that person, the organisation and the saynoto0870 database.]


In friendship, SCV, may I say that in my experience of using the Sayno... database, in the vast majority of cases the alternative number is answered by the company or organisation welcome message and then I am through to the normal menu system.     In fact I cannot recall a single example, and I have used the Sayno.... database several times a week for several years, where I have found myself put through to "the wrong person" or directly to an office or extension that is not set up to answer large volumes of calls.    In other words, the Sayno... database usually holds the the correct underlying geographic numbers and using it does not cause any inconvenience or difficulty to the organisation called, in my experience..

I think, SCV, that where you refer to "an alternative route" or "an alternative service" you are actually referring the the very small minority of cases where a contributor has put an incorrect number on the database which may not go through to the correct "call centre" or have the usual company menu system.    Whilst I accept that this may cause some incovenience to the organisation let us not devote too much of our debate to this minority issue.   The fact is, in my experience, that the Sayno.... database provides mostly correct and legitimate alternative numbers and does not give rise to any problems for the receiving company or organisation.

I am often surprised to find that the alternative number on the database is an 0800 and I wonder why the organisation retains these numbers, at some expense to themselves, but never quote them on correspondence or literature.   They always seem to quote their 084/7 numbers and never mention the fact that they do have alternatives.

I do not think that "Some callers take great joy in putting themselves and others to considerable trouble in order to score a victory": I don't know of anyone who does that and I would have thought that it would be a fruitless and very time-consuming way to spend their time and they would soon give it up.    Judging by the bulk of the postings on this Forum I would say that most people are not troublemakers at all but simply want to contact organisations by phone at normal prices and want to avoid being ripped-off.  

I am very surprised that you think that this website may "encourage unwarranted abuse" when calling alternative numbers that turn out to not be the correct route.    I have seen no such suggestions from the officers of the site or indeed from any Forum contributors.   In fact I am constantly delighted and heartened by the generally high standard of discussion, politeness and even comradeship within this Forum and I would say that the majority hint or reveal in their postings that they are mature, responsible and reasonable people.   Several have said that when they have got through to the "wrong" department a polite request to be transferred often achieves the desired result without any abuse or ill feeling.   And this is the approach that I would advocate and I believe is used by most contributors around here.

There are other issues which have been raised on this thread as well as the main question about the ethical standing of this whole site.   I will comment on this in another posting as this one is already long enough.
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« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2010 at 10:25pm by loddon »  
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