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GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers banned (Read 172,359 times)
speedy
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #135 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 12:15pm
 
Would it be possible to copy one of my posts No. 711 on page 48  NEG Progaganda as I doent know how to link and I think part of the problem is shown here from my talk to the PCT that they have been passed ambiguous information from higher up the chain - in particular if and when PCT asks GP's if their 0844 complies - See my point about Who GP's ask for this information from and what is acceptable by the PCT

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Dave
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #136 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 1:15pm
 
speedy wrote on Jul 30th, 2011 at 12:15pm:
Would it be possible to copy one of my posts No. 711 on page 48  NEG Progaganda


The post you refer to is below:

speedy wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 4:33am:
Why has no PCT pointed out that a letter from NEG or other similar Companys which are NOT the Telephony Providors - they are only the System ( Hardware ) Suppliers - is NOT appropriate - The Telephone Providers in NEG case is Talk Talk - THEY are the people that set the Charges not NEG or similar - it is because the PCTs have been mis-informed from higher up  Angry

Has this been put directly to NEG and the like and IF they answered what was it and why are they lying to GPs about being the Telephont Providor

When PCTs ask for the Call Charge confirmation from GPs they should point out that a letter from NEG is NOT what is required to the PCTs request

I will answer my original Question regarding one PCT that I have been liasing with and when I informed her of all of the points that I have collected from various Threads and posts that I have found on this site regarding the mis-infomation that NEG has conned MOH and higher and she was horrified because the PCT had unwittingly passed this mis-infomation to the GPs that was passed to them

I then helped her onto this Site and relavant Sections - which she said would make very enlightened reading  

I then myself later found the Thead Titled NEG Propaganda which I will tell her of but tell her to start from about page 37 because earlier pages links dont work now and prices are out of date
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #137 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 3:22pm
 
speedy wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 4:33am:
Why has no PCT pointed out that a letter from NEG or other similar Companys which are NOT the Telephony Providors - they are only the System ( Hardware ) Suppliers - is NOT appropriate - The Telephone Providers in NEG case is Talk Talk - THEY are the people that set the Charges not NEG or similar - it is because the PCTs have been mis-informed from higher up  Angry

You make some good very points, however there needs to be some further clarification.

Talk Talk did set the level of revenue share when originally applying for the 0844 ranges used by Surgery Line clients. IT DOES NOT DIRECTLY SET THE CHARGES INCURRED BY CALLERS, nor can it vary the rate of the revenue share in individual cases. There is some confusion caused by the fact that BT cannot add its own charge to the pence per minute revenue share rate (although it can add a call setup fee). No other provider is subject to this limitation.


A user of a 084 number can only determine the charges that will be incurred by callers by consulting the published tariffs of the various telephone companies through which people call them. They could ask NEG, Talk Talk, the PCT, the Department of Health or anyone else to do this job for them, or they could consult each of the telephone companies directly.

The implication that NEG or Talk Talk have any privileged access to this information is totally misleading. You and I are equally able to consult these published tariffs to determine what callers pay. It is also important to note that it not just what people pay which matters, but whether or not this is more than what they pay for an equivalent call to geographic number. In each case one has to look at both figures. I have published a summary with links to the published tariffs here.


The PCTs have not been misled from "higher up"; they have been misled by misrepresentations of the position of the Department of Health by the BMA and by NEG. Both claim to know what PCTs should do and say so loudly. It is actually for each PCT to make its own decisions, however it cannot go beyond the terms of the contract as drafted, because these are approved by parliament. Both the BMA and NEG claim that the terms of the contract include qualifications and provisions that are totally absent and well beyond the scope of what could be called "interpretation".

The simple truth is that there is no 084 number that is not more expensive to call for some patients of every GP surgery. If this were not the case, then 084 numbers could be used by NHS providers. It is however true; use of 084 numbers is, in effect, banned.
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speedy
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #138 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 6:21pm
 
Thanks for bringing it over for me SCV
I didnt make myself very clear when I mentioned that the PCT should ask GP's about the compliance because this is a Premium Business type line - most of the GP's ask NEG or similar hardware supplier which is NOT the right place - these are the letters they are passing to PCT's -they should have asked THIER Telecom Service and also ask about whether inclusive and mobiles and other Tarifs how expensive to Callers

How many Practice Managers are going to put them selves out to check with other Telecom Services when NEG say yes it is compliant - one phone call to NEG or similar one letter job done as far as GP's are concerned - and PCT's in the case of the one I have been talking to (not West Kent PCT whose letter I quoted from my MP in an earlier post) didnt realise that NEG, theirs is another, was not the correct place for compliance assurence - as I said misled from Higher-up meaning the BMA supporting it and copying other PCT's that appeared to accept the SAME FALSE ASSURANCES from NEG or similar.   

It is a pity that FOI cant ask for Monies or in Kind returned to each Surgery and published I bet NEG or similar wouldnt be keen so give out THAT information - plenty of false accounting would be going on if THAT had to come out

How were the sums of £80,000 and £20,000 that was being made out of Patients on Premium Lines under FOI got and by whom that I found somewhere on this site ?- I have a feeling one was through a News Paper but could be wrong
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #139 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 8:22pm
 
speedy wrote on Jul 30th, 2011 at 6:21pm:
I didnt make myself very clear when I mentioned that the PCT should ask GP's about the compliance because this is a Premium Business type line - most of the GP's ask NEG or similar hardware supplier which is NOT the right place - these are the letters they are passing to PCT's -they should have asked THIER Telecom Service and also ask about whether inclusive and mobiles and other Tarifs how expensive to Callers

Telecommunications works by different operators interconnecting with one another. As a result, subscribers of one telephone company can call those with another.

If there were no interconnections, then those who have a BT line could only call other BT customers and not those with Virgin Media, O2, Orange and so on.

It is up to each call provider to set the rates that its customers pay to ring numbers. It is therefore not down to the receiver's telephone provider as to what the call cost is (except where the caller happens to be with the same telephone company).

The GP's contract does not stipulate which numbers can't be used or what the maximum cost of calls should be. What it does say is that (for the arrangement as a whole) calls should not cost more than an equivalent call to a geographic number.

The proof of what patients pay (and whether they pay more than their respective geographic charge) is in the tariffs of their own telephone providers.

For more on this see my blog: Who is responsible for setting the cost of a telephone call?


The BMA advocates that GPs should only ensure that patients don't pay more when calling from BT landline non-inclusive tariffs. This directly contradicts the recent statement in Parliament by a health minister as well as the principle that the NHS should be free at the point of need for all citizens and not just those that happen to purchase telecommunications from one private provider (BT).
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speedy
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #140 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 8:37pm
 
First thank you Dave for quoting my other post - I said SCV because I had been all over threads checking things and forgot who did what  Embarrassed

loddon  ( have used initials because when I put the full surgery name my post appeared in Google list on Page 2 )  have altered 2nd Surgery name for same reason I am sure you can see you put a saddle on it  Grin

Re: Dart.E.H.C, their site has been supposedly being Updated for ages - I was hoping someone might be able to answer how long - I have not seen it different -their 0844 was shown in Yell Pages 2007/8 but lots of sites still show their geo. number.

I tried dialing the 01322 number on a Mon at 9.15am and it just rung but by chance which I didnt know about then,  a friend had an appt. there and was standing AT Reception at 9.15am and she said that a phone somewhere at back rung a while then stoped then started again but it was ignored - that evening I told her that I had phoned the geo. number - she then told me what had happened that morning - I said that was me it is exactly what I had done - so the geo. number is still connecting

Next:  long 4 legs (not a dog ) Place   Grin

There does not appear to be a Review section now on their own site and I am sure I read some complaints about 0844 and Star Rating and not recommending to a Friend etc.some saying that they were leaving and now for complaints you have to leave Name and email address no Anon now that they were then, so Patients are not able to complain safely- their 0844 number shows in Thompson Dir. 2005/6 also in same Yell. Pages 2007/8 as above previous Surgery.

I have now got Practice Managers email addreses for both one is still correct but other is a bit old and may not be right - will try a check one not sure about.
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Dave
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #141 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 12:47am
 
More foolish comments on how telephone calls are charged:

Surgeries' call charges are making patients sick

Quote:
NHS Bedfordshire Head of Primary Care Commissioning, Tony Medwell, said: “We have been assured by the GP practices using 0844 numbers that their phone providers do not charge patients more than the cost of calling a local geographical number.

The phone providers of the GPs are irrelevant, unless they telephone their own 0844 numbers from their own surgeries just for the hell of it.  Roll Eyes


Quote:
“However, neither NHS Bedfordshire nor the practices have access to details regarding the cost levied by patients’ own telephone providers for calling these numbers.”

Does Mr Medwell consider himself to be a "person". Are his colleagues also "persons"?

The GMS Contract states that "having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number."

Doesn't say "patients". If Mr Medwell and his colleagues consider themselves as fitting the definition of "persons", then perhaps they could consider whether they pay more to ring the numbers in question from the PCT's office, or indeed their mobile phones provided by the PCT. Is this really too complex to do?  Roll Eyes

Remember that it only requires one person to pay more than they would otherwise do to make it unacceptable to use the 0844 number. There is therefore no need to know what tariff every patient is on. Just one example... pretty much every mobile phone tariff.... a BT Payphone.....
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« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2011 at 12:50am by Dave »  
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #142 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 6:34pm
 
Dave wrote on Aug 2nd, 2011 at 12:47am:
Does Mr Medwell consider himself to be a "person". Are his colleagues also "persons"?

The GMS Contract states that "having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number."

Doesn't say "patients".

Actually the GMS contract does say "patients" as part of the definition of "relevant calls" in 29B.5.2.1.

It also covers Mr Medwell and his colleagues, who may have cause to ring the practice "in relation to services provided as part of the health service", in 29B.5.2.2.

Given that the contract requires practices to determine the cost of a call relative to that of an equivalent call to a geographic number, NHS Bedfordshire and the practices are no less able to access the relevant information than anyone else.

The practices' phone provider Talk Talk would only be expected to know that it charges callers more to call 0844 number than for equivalent calls to geographic numbers. NEG and Daisy have no relevant comment to make because they only provide telephone service to businesses. NHS services are only available to individuals.

If they think it necessary to ask patients about the telephone service they use, there is nothing to prevent them from doing this. A swift review of all of the commonly used tariffs is however sufficient to establish that all 084 numbers are more expensive to call.
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