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Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013 (Read 156,879 times)
Ian G
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #105 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 4:54pm
 
There's a retail and leisure park in an adjacent town. It has a supermarket, DIY store, furniture store, cinema, restaurant and bowling alley.

A local taxi firm charges £7.50 each way (total £15) if you go there to shop, and for this example this price is not dependent on night or day.

The taxi firm also sells a combined ticket for travel and entertainment. This ticket is £40 and is pre-paid for the journey and for viewing one film or eating one meal or taking part in one bowling session.

Having paid £40 for the ticket and knowing the travel costs £15, you might have a reasonable expectation that each of the entertainment options costs £25.

However, if you visit the park using some other form of transport, you'll find that the cinema is £10, the meal is £20 and the bowling is £15.

You have now discovered the taxi firm is effectively charging you £30 for the journey if you go to the cinema, £20 for the journey if you go for a meal and £25 for the journey if you go bowling.

This is similar to the situation you might find with mobile call pricing for 0844 numbers where a mobile network charges, for example, 40p/min for all 0844 calls irrespective of whether the underlying Service Charge is 2p/min or 7p/min. The other parallel would be if that same mobile network charged, say, only 20p/min for calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers.

The "unbundled tariff" as applied to the "night out" deal would require the taxi firm to charge you the same £15 for every journey irrespective of which part of the venue you are visiting (the Access Charge) and the correct £10 for the cinema, £20 for the meal and £15 for the bowling (the Service Charge) and each party clearly states their part of the charge.

Is that any more clear?
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« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2013 at 1:26am by Ian G »  
 
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Dave
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #106 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 4:54pm
 
CJT-80 wrote on Dec 12th, 2013 at 1:49pm:
For example, the cap on the rate of the service charge for numbers in the 084 ranges will be 7p (inc. VAT) and the cap for numbers in the 087 range will be 13p (inc. VAT);"

The part highlighted in bold... does this mean:

I ring an 084 number and the maximum per minute rate for it will be 7p inc VAT.. or

I ring an 084 number and the maximum "call connection" fee will be 7p inc VAT?

You can I hope appreciate MY confusion...

Huh

Neither.

The statement relates to Service Charge, as I've highlighted.

The total cost of calling any 084, 087, 09 or 118 number will be the Service Charge (to the benefit of the user) plus the Access Charge (imposed by the caller's phone company).

The Service Charge is the same for all callers, irrespective of the phone company used. The Access Charge will likely vary between phone call companies.

An explanation of the Unbundled Tariff is available from the fair telecoms campaign.
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2013 at 5:01pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #107 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 5:37pm
 
The BBC are running with it and offer an explanation of what it means.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25345157

Shame we have to wait another 17 months for it to be implemented.

When it says callers may also be told by a recorded message is this up to the provider of the ngn ?
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2013 at 5:42pm by bigjohn »  

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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #108 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:27pm
 
Right well yes that is clearer now..

I just wondered which bit of the "charged" is supposed to be capped.....

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Ian G
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #109 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:30pm
 
The Service Charge is capped. Up to 7p/min on 084 numbers. Up to 13p/min on 087 numbers.

The Service Charge depends on the first six digits of the phone number called.

The Access Charge is open to competition between call providers to keep it low.

See also: http://tinyurl.com/SN1384676248c34
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2013 at 9:14pm by Ian G »  
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #110 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:33pm
 
Ian G wrote on Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:30pm:
The Service Charge is capped. Up to 7p/min on 084 numbers. Up to 13p/min on 087 numbers.

The Service Charge depends on the first six digits of the phone number.

The Access Charge is open to competition between call providers to keep it low.


Service charge goes to the provider of the 08 number?

Will all 084 and 087 numbers have the same service charge? or will it just be as confusing as it is now....
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #111 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:36pm
 
bigjohn wrote on Dec 12th, 2013 at 5:37pm:
The BBC are running with it and offer an explanation of what it means.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25345157

Surely this part of the BBC report is wrong:

Quote:
Ofcom also said that it would also simplify tariffs for calls to 03 numbers, which must now be included in the inclusive minutes or other promotional offers a phone user might have.

This suggests some change in the way 03 numbers are treated, and I can't see that in the Ofcom report.
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #112 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 6:58pm
 
The Access Charge is retained by the caller's telephone company.

The Service Charge is paid onwards to the telephone company of who you are calling. They use that money to pay for the call-queueing and other non-geographic features and for routing the call onwards to the business you are actually calling. If there is any money left over, that's then paid out to the called business under a revenue share arrangement.

Yes, the Service Charge will vary according to the first six digits of the phone number called, as already happens now. However, the number user will have to show that Service Charge next to wherever their number is advertised. There will rarely be a need for callers to have to look this figure up.

What callers will need to do is remember just how much the Access Charge is for calls made on their landline and on their mobile.


I don't know why the BBC have used the wording they have in explaining the call price for 03 numbers. They will continue using the same system as is already in place. The call price is either the same as calling an 01 or 02 number or the call counts towards the inclusive allowance.


Back to an earlier comment. There is no requirement for an announcement at the start of the call. I think someone misread the briefing from Ofcom. Of course, there is nothing to stop a service provider adding just such an announcement if they want to.
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2013 at 9:16pm by Ian G »  
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #113 - Dec 12th, 2013 at 9:44pm
 
I know with Mobile networks or at least my mobile network (O2) that they advise in a pre call announcement when you try and call an 0800 number that they charge for it..

I would therefore assume it's possible to set up a similar announcement for ALL providers, both landline and mobile when calling a "non inclusive" call... to advise of the charge..
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #114 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 3:18am
 
The Consumers Rights Directive reaches the statute books today. Transport appears to be included. Normal geographical numbers to be used apparently. Effective from June 2014.

"If something goes wrong with a cooker, or commuters want a refund on their season ticket, they will now pay the same to phone a helpline as they do to call friends or family”
Jo Swinson Consumer Minister."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25355758
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« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2013 at 3:24am by bigjohn »  

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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #115 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 11:41am
 
bigjohn wrote on Dec 13th, 2013 at 3:18am:
The Consumers Rights Directive reaches the statute books today. Transport appears to be included. Normal geographical numbers to be used apparently. Effective from June 2014.

"If something goes wrong with a cooker, or commuters want a refund on their season ticket, they will now pay the same to phone a helpline as they do to call friends or family”
Jo Swinson Consumer Minister."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25355758


Oh excellent news.... including Transport.. so that's National Rail Enquiries having to change, either they will finally amend their 0845 number to 0345 or use an 020 number.  Plus all the Rail Operators (TOC's) will have to change theirs... I wonder if Traveline will have to amend their's... as that is technically transport related and is a huge rip off...

We shall see what progress is made...  Smiley
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #116 - Dec 13th, 2013 at 1:11pm
 
Apologies for joining this recent discussion a little late. Perhaps I can offer a wider context to the announcements of yesterday and today PLUS an announcement from the Cabinet Office covering government and the public sector which is promised "shortly". (My understanding is that "shortly" can be interpreted as meaning "within a few working days".)

The tone is clearly set that use of 084 / 087 numbers is only appropriate in situations where the person called has a valid justification for imposing a charge on the caller. It is also established that this cannot be justified for handling customer enquiries and complaints.

There will always be cases where laws are broken and regulations breached - the world of telecoms is little different to any other. Equally there will be a tendency for standards and principles that are established to guide decisions made by businesses. Ultimately it is not laws, regulations and formal guidance statements that matter for their own sake, it is the effect that they and other factors have on the behaviour of those making decisions.

It is my view that there are relatively few situations where a Service Charge of less than 13p (or 7p) per minute would be validly imposed for a telephone call. If campaigners, citizens and consumers keep up the pressure, it is my belief that when the "unbundled tariff" comes into effect in June 2015 there will be very few remaining users of 084 and 087 numbers.

It is important to understand that the "unbundled tariff" also provides much needed clarity in respect of genuine Premium Rate Services, including Directory Enquiry services. It is wrong to think that its only purpose is to drive away invalid use of 084/087 numbers (as this could have been achieved by other means).
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #117 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:26pm
 
I wonder if telecoms companies will be allowed to exclude any 0800 numbers from the tariff free calls from mobiles rule, e.g. call through numbers from indirect phone call providers. It could be interesting for PAYG mobile customers being able to bypass the high call charges - a single top-up could last for many years with just an occasional chargeable call to keep the SIM account active.
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Ian G
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #118 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:52pm
 
More likely they will simply block access to those numbers. Only BT and KC have a Universal Service Obligation.
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« Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:52pm by Ian G »  
 
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Re: Ofcom consultation: Simplifying NGNs — April 2013
Reply #119 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 7:15pm
 
This contribution, which originally stated …
Quote:
Apologies for not understanding what may be an important point.

has now been amended in the light of a later contribution.


Graham wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 1:26pm:
I wonder if telecoms companies will be allowed to exclude any 0800 numbers from the tariff free calls from mobiles rule, e.g. call through numbers from indirect phone call providers. It could be interesting for PAYG mobile customers being able to bypass the high call charges - a single top-up could last for many years with just an occasional chargeable call to keep the SIM account active.

Indirect access 080 numbers would be unlikely to be of benefit to mobile users at present. The first point is addressing a modest extension to the "call through" market that already exists on other types of number, access to which may be blocked by some providers.

This point does however draw attention to a wider issue, as covered by the second point. The use of free SIMs is coming under attack from a quite different direction. At present, the absence of any "line rental" charge on mobiles is covered by high termination rates on incoming calls. These are in the course of being reduced - a vital factor in relation to making calls to 080 numbers free to caller, but without placing excessive costs on those using 080 numbers.


Notwithstanding the possibility of calling only 080 numbers, there are many free SIM PAYG users who survive on the basis of getting people to call them. When the mobile providers lose the significant income from these calls, through the high termination rates, the question of people who currently get "something for nothing" may have to be addressed.

This is a tricky issue. The present arrangement is essentially unfair, but it does enable many kids and those who are financially pressured to have access to the telephone network. It would be hard to argue against a reasonable monthly charge for maintaining a network connection, but this would be seen as most unwelcome, especially given the nature of those who would be most affected.

Although the reduction in the termination charges is already happening, through a phased arrangement, we have yet to see any significant effects (apart from its contribution to enabling prohibition of charges for calls to 080 numbers). In time, we will expect to see landline providers treating calls to landlines and mobiles in the same way. Whilst mobile operators appear to have absorbed their loss of income through the initial phases of the rate reductions, one has to expect that they will react once it essentially dries up altogether.

(Perhaps any further discussion of this issue belongs in a new thread.)

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« Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2013 at 1:06am by SilentCallsVictim »  
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