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The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign! (Read 12,670 times)
NGMsGhost
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The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
May 30th, 2013 at 1:50pm
 
Am I the only one to wonder where it was that we agreed on this site that we would appoint just two regular contributors to the forum (one of them also a moderator) to represent the interests of the movement against 084 and 087 telephone call centre abuse in the shape of www.fairtelecoms.org.uk and its associated Blogs and Twitter and other news feeds?

This site even admits on its About tab that it only has two people behind it and yet those people never seem to have discussed with other long term regulars on this site like myself, idb, Barbara, Derrick and loddon whether we wished to also be publicly associated with this movement or whether its objectives were in any way harmonious with those of the regular participants in this discission forum and/or regular contributors of alternative numbers for this website.  I note that this Campaign also does not have any regular committee or other meetings where other people  with an interest in the topic can try to join it or alter its policies in terms of the main issues that it attempts to lobby and change govenment policy on.

Since SilentCallsVictim turned up on this website less than half way through its life he always seems to have presumed from the outset that he is our spokesman, even though half the time he does not share many of our objective that all 084/7 number use should be made illegal for all customer service lines and queries of any kind.

Am I the only one to wonder who exactly appointed Mr SilentCallsVictim to his self appointed role as MrFairTelecoms or who exactly determined that FairTelecoms was going to start representing itself as being the media and publicity face of the www.saynoto0870.com campaign.

All thoughts or contributions on this topic from other forum members are most welcome.  A number of long and rambling posts on the topic by SilentCallsVictim are more or less inevitable since he usually seems to have little else in his day to occupy his time.
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« Last Edit: May 30th, 2013 at 6:43pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Dave
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #1 - May 30th, 2013 at 6:16pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 1:50pm:
Am I the only one to wonder who exactly appointed Mr SilentCallsVictim to his self appointed role as MrFairTelecoms or who exactly determined that FairTelecoms was going to start representing itself as being the media and publicity face of the www.satnoto0870.com campaign.

Where has the fair telecoms campaign claimed to be speaking for SayNoTo0870?
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NGMsGhost
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #2 - May 30th, 2013 at 6:50pm
 
Dave wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 6:16pm:
Where has the fair telecoms campaign claimed to be speaking for SayNoTo0870?


It appears to be from the way SCV refers to it on this website and the fact that he thinks there is no need for news items to any longer be posted in this discussion forum any more. This appears to be because he believes all site members are signed up to the fairtelecoms twitter account and/or also read its various Blog and other associated sites.

The reality is that all other forum members continue to have discussions here and FairTelecoms only represents its two authors.

It is also most disturbing that the confused thinking of SCV that all revenue share lines are not always wrong in principle (a matter on which I, idb, Derrick, Barbara, mc661, loddon and numerous other members have always been utterly clear from the outset of our membership of the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum) and that there are apparently many legitimate uses of them are shared by the two founders of Fairtelecoms.  That is another reason why this campaign is not at all representative of the views of the average member of this discussion forum.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #3 - May 30th, 2013 at 8:01pm
 
Oh yes perhaps I should mention the other point I don't like about the self promoting two man telecoms campaign.

Specifically its choice of a title (FairTelecoms) that clearly attempts to claim that all its views take the moral high ground and therefore implicitly cannot be criticised.  This is as compared to "saynoto0870" that merely accurately describes what it does albeit that 0844, 0845 and 0871 are currently the main foes (although 0870 has never been fully corrected).

Whereas its ridiculous acceptance of the bizarre regime of complication in revealing the multi layered details of 084/7 charges (and even then not revealing all of them) instead of "just banning the whole bl**dy lot" as has been suggested in the past does nothing but to give comfort and succour to Ofcom that their plans to keep the 084/7 merchants in business are succeeding whilst being seen to do something are succeeding.

If SCV and Dave think people won't call 084/7 numbers any more than they won't buy go on buying cigarettes because of the Smoking Kills message on the packets then they are sadly mistaken.

084/7 exploitation is reliant on a regime of slavery where it is the only way of contacting an outfit who you are already a customer of.  For most normal people the supply of pricing information is irrelevant because at that point in time they perceive they do not have any choice but to deal with the organisation they are already a customer of.

I must say I also find it remarkable that the views of Dave are now generally so closely aligned with those of SCV since as I recall it Dave did not originally have many strong opinions of his own on any of these obscure matters of technical legalese and his efforts were always focused simply on the practical matter of relentlessly hunting for alternatives to 084/7 numbers.  It therefore appears to me that in order to become a working colleague of SCV that Dave has unfortunately just uncritically chosen to accept much of his existing dogma even though much of that dogma is not accepted by many other longstanding members of the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum.
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« Last Edit: May 30th, 2013 at 8:05pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Dave
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #4 - May 31st, 2013 at 1:15pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:01pm:
Specifically its choice of a title (FairTelecoms) that clearly attempts to claim that all its views take the moral high ground and therefore implicitly cannot be criticised.  This is as compared to "saynoto0870" that merely accurately describes what it does albeit that 0844, 0845 and 0871 are currently the main foes (although 0870 has never been fully corrected).

The use of the word "fair" in the title of the campaign is about addressing the imbalances which exist, rather than shifting them from one extreme to the other.

Markets are effective where prices are transparent and with 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers this is not the case; the Unbundled Tariff will address this.


NGMsGhost wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:01pm:
Whereas its ridiculous acceptance of the bizarre regime of complication in revealing the multi layered details of 084/7 charges (and even then not revealing all of them) instead of "just banning the whole bl**dy lot" as has been suggested in the past does nothing but to give comfort and succour to Ofcom that their plans to keep the 084/7 merchants in business are succeeding whilst being seen to do something are succeeding.

The point is that the charges associated with each party (caller and receiver) for 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers have always been bundled together. The more we tended away from a single call provider, the more this system was doomed to the sort of mess that now exists.

Irrespective of one's view on whether 084 and 087 numbers should continue to exist, it stands to reason that something must be done to address the ability convey relevant pricing information for all types of premium numbers from all suppliers of call originating services. Perhaps those who oppose the Unbundled Tariff can explain how pricing can be made clearer where (for any single call) each party imposes a respective charge.


NGMsGhost wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:01pm:
If SCV and Dave think people won't call 084/7 numbers any more than they won't buy go on buying cigarettes because of the Smoking Kills message on the packets then they are sadly mistaken.

084/7 exploitation is reliant on a regime of slavery where it is the only way of contacting an outfit who you are already a customer of.  For most normal people the supply of pricing information is irrelevant because at that point in time they perceive they do not have any choice but to deal with the organisation they are already a customer of.

The Consumer Rights Directive addresses this very point; it will kick into touch many 084/087 misusers.

Other users — those that can justify their Service Charges — will be free to continue levying them. For example, a technical support helpline where there is no contract in place to offer such a service free of charge. fairtelecoms does not oppose the existance of such a service on a 084 or 087 number.
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #5 - May 31st, 2013 at 5:36pm
 
Dave wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 1:15pm:
The Consumer Rights Directive addresses this very point; it will kick into touch many 084/087 misusers.


I hope you are right about this , Dave.    Of course we have yet to see the precise wording of the legislation so we are not sure which misuses will be kicked into touch and which will be allowed to continue.

Ofcom said this about the CRD in their recent consultation Part B Annexes A19 para 116 :---

"With respect to the impact of the Consumer Rights Directive, we note this is not directly relevant to our assessment under this criterion given that its requirements will be implemented in the UK regardless of whether or not we implement the unbundled tariff. Nevertheless, we acknowledge that there may be a particular impact on SPs as a result of the requirements in the Directive, with some SPs potentially needing to migrate, or use alternative number ranges for particular aspects of their service. In particular this Directive contains a requirement that where a customer telephone helpline is offered to deal with contracts that have been concluded (with some exceptions for specific services) the call must be charged at no more than a basic rate.86 The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (‘BIS’) issued a consultation on the implementation of this Directive in the UK in August this year.87 Its position in that consultation was that the definition of ‘basic rate’ would exclude any revenue sharing arrangements, even on the lower rated ranges where that revenue sharing was used to cover costs rather than passed through directly to the SP. The Directive is required to be transposed into UK law by 13 December 2013 and it will apply to all contracts concluded after June 2014.88 However, as indicated, this requirement only applies to communication after contracts have been concluded. Therefore this may not necessarily mean that SPs which have numbers that do not meet the ‘basic rate’ requirement have to migrate away from that number range, but instead they will need to ensure that they have at least one number range which meets that requirement for after-sales queries."

What do you think Ofcom meant by this? :---
" .... with some SPs potentially needing to migrate, or use alternative number ranges for particular aspects of their service

Do you know what these exceptions are? :---
" .... with contracts that have been concluded with some exceptions for specific services the call must be charged at no more than a basic rate"

What does Ofcom mean by this? :---
"Therefore this may not necessarily mean that SPs which have numbers that do not meet the ‘basic rate’ requirement have to migrate away from that number range, but instead they will need to ensure that they have at least one number range which meets that requirement for after-sales queries."

This does give the impression that Ofcom are seeking every possible way to wriggle around the CRD; what do you think?
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« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2013 at 8:08pm by loddon »  
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #6 - May 31st, 2013 at 6:05pm
 
loddon wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 5:36pm:
What do you think Ofcom meant by this? :---
" .... with some SPs potentially needing to migrate, or use alternative number ranges for particular aspects of their service"

By "service" it is referring to all parts of the service. For example, a particular company may operate a sales number and a customer services number. Only for the latter may the SP potentially need to migrate.


loddon wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 5:36pm:
Do you know what these exceptions are? :---
" .... with contracts that have been concluded with some exceptions for specific services the call must be charged at no more than a basic rate"

The Directive does not require some sectors to be included: social services, healthcare, gambling, financial services and a few others, as set out in Article 3.


loddon wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 5:36pm:
What does Ofcom mean by this? :---
"Therefore this may not necessarily mean that SPs which have numbers that do not meet the ‘basic rate’ requirement have to migrate away from that number range, but instead they will need to ensure that they have at least one number range which meets that requirement for after-sales queries."

Read the sentence before to have an appreciation for the quoted: "However, as indicated, this requirement only applies to communication after contracts have been concluded."

It is only necessary for certain types of enquiry line to migrate away, i.e. post-contract ones.


loddon wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 5:36pm:
This does give the impression that Ofcom are seeking every possible way to wriggle around the CRD; what do you think?

Not at all. Ofcom has nothing to do with the implementation of the Consumer Rights Directive.

The exposure of the Service Charge through implementation of the Unbundled Tariff exposes beyond doubt that these numbers are not "basic rate".
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #7 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 8:28am
 
I will only say this on the likely effectiveness or otherwise of the EU Directive.

Appeals to the Competition Appeals Tribunal probably take a year or so, the subsequent appeal to the Upper Tribunal may take another year or two.  The appeal to the Court of Appeal will probably take 18 months after that and the one to the Supreme Court another couple of years.

After that the European Court of Human Rights case perhaps brought by members of this campaign (if the Supreme Court backs business and its profits as it usually does in commercial matters as businesses cannot appeal to Europe) may take another three years or so.

As profits from 084/7 numbers are worth a lot it may be 10 years or more before this Directive has any impact on the use of ripoff customer service numbers in the UK.  By then I doubt the average large corporation in the UK will any longer be offering voice based customer service and will instead insist you message them online so that they can then take as many weeks or months or years as they want to bother to reply (if ever), especially if they cannot charge the customer for the privilege of doing so.

Meanwhile the "Engage With The Scammers and their Scamming Regulators Telecoms Campaign" (aka FairTelecoms) will continue to cosy up to Ofcom and telecoms businesses perhaps in the hope of another paid directorship or consultancy or two from the industry to work on a research or focus group or whatever in return for continuing to engage with it.
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« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2013 at 8:31am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #8 - Jun 4th, 2013 at 7:43pm
 
Thanks Dave for your answers which I agree with, and they confirm some aspects I am concerned about.  That is, this proposed legislation will only partially address the problem with 084/7 as so many will be excused from compliance.    It will need consumers and campaigners to apply pressure to get many to decide to drop 084/7 and use normal rate numbers.    I would rather the regulator apply the pressure.

Dave wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 6:05pm:
Only for the latter may the SP potentially need to migrate.

Even for the customer services number it is only the "post-contract" one which must migrate.    Other customer service would be allowed to retain a premium rate.

Dave wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 6:05pm:
]The Directive[/url] does not require some sectors to be included: social services, healthcare, gambling, financial services and a few others, as set out in Article 3.

Financial services includes Banks, Building Societies, Insurers, Agents, Brokers and Advisors while Social Services and Healthcare cover a multitude of operational sectors.   I would like to know what the "few others" are (I haven't the time to wade through the "Directive", having looked at it.)   That's quite a few which will not be required to comply.


Dave wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 6:05pm:
It is only necessary for certain types of enquiry line to migrate away, i.e. post-contract ones.

Yes.

Dave wrote on May 31st, 2013 at 6:05pm:
The exposure of the Service Charge through implementation of the Unbundled Tariff exposes beyond doubt that these numbers are not "basic rate". 

Yes, that is a positive thing to emerge from the proposals provided they don't get watered down before implementation.
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« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2013 at 9:06pm by loddon »  
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2013 at 7:54pm
 
loddon wrote on Jun 4th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
Thanks Dave for your answers which I agree with, and they confirm some aspects I am concerned about.  That is, this proposed legislation will only partially address the problem with 084/7 as so many will be excused from compliance.    It will need consumers and campaigners to apply pressure to get many to decide to drop 084/7 and use normal rate numbers.    I would rather the regulator apply the pressure.

I think that the usage of 084 numbers, and to a lesser degree 087 numbers, has been companies jumping on the bandwagon. That is, as others are doing it it is seen as the in thing.

In a similar manner, hopefully as companies that have to move away from these numbers by law do so, others will follow suit.


Where a company has to give up imposing a Service Charge for existing business calls, I can't see that it is likely to retain it for new business calls.
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Re: The Two Man Self Publicising Telecoms Campaign!
Reply #10 - Jun 5th, 2013 at 2:17pm
 
Unless the question of imposing rules on who may contribute to the forum is being raised again, I cannot see what "site related" issues being are discussed here. The fair telecoms campaign is a campaign group that addresses issues which are also discussed in this open discussion forum.

I am aware of efforts having been made some years ago to establish a formally incorporated campaign group out of this forum and its members, possibly using the SayNoTo0870 brand. So far as I know, these efforts have not yet been successful. It was some time after such efforts had apparently ceased that the fair telecoms campaign was launched.

I see no reason why another campaigning group, with a more formalised structure, could not be established to oppose and rival the fair telecoms campaign, if that is what is desired. Obviously this would be likely to hinder attainment of any shared objectives, however human nature often leads to such situations.

The fair telecoms campaign is structured as it is, in part, to avoid having to commit too much energy to internal discussion about policy. This enables a consistent position to be presented to the world and the maximum available time to be spent on seeking to influence those who make the real decisions that actually affect what happens. This is regrettable, as claims of representative status can be helpful to a campaigning organisation. In my view, such claims are commonly bogus, as a representative would rarely have genuinely unanimous total support for any position.

Whilst campaigning for change, through fairtelecoms, I am happy to continue to engage in discussion within this forum. I have quoted a phrase found in this thread in Anger over Wembley Tickets 0844 phone charges. - Reply #4 and perhaps covered other relevant points in other recent postings.
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