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"Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong (Read 4,627 times)
allegro
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"Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:25pm
 
In today's Guardian the Gala for Grenfell at the Adelphi Theatre gives 020 3725 7060 as the number. They then say: "Calls are charged at 7p per minute plus standard network rates"

Wrong. They are included in your call package or if you don't have a call package are charged at the basic rate. In any case the wording is wrong even for 0844 etc numbers. "standard network rate" isn't allowed. It should be "your network access charge".

Same error on the Adelphi website: http://www.reallyusefultheatres.co.uk/our-group/contact-us
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« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:25pm by allegro »  
 
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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #1 - Jul 24th, 2017 at 2:58pm
 

The theatre group's own website has a † mark next to each of the 0844 numbers, leading to an explanatory note at the very bottom of the page which says...

† Calls are charged at 7p per minute plus standard network rates

Not only is the wording incorrect, Ofcom regulations require the call costs to be immediately adjacent to the number.

But, more importantly, the whole business of making callers pay up to 62p per minute just so they can rake off no more than around 4p per minute in revenue share payments is utterly stupid. The VAT man gets a larger share of the call costs!

As for the newspaper article, it looks like the journalist or writer was in a hurry and didn't notice the † mark next to some of the numbers and simply assumed it applied to all of the numbers on that page.

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« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2017 at 9:11am by Ian01 »  
 
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allegro
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #2 - Jul 25th, 2017 at 7:02am
 
It wasn't an article, it was an advertisement. So the journos are innocent for a change.

All of us here agree that making callers pay a high access charge in order to rake off a few pence per minite is daft. Do the users of 084/087 numbers negotiate a rake off with their phone companies? In addition to the service charge.
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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2017 at 8:21am
 

Less VAT, the Access Charge is retained by the caller's phone provider.

Less VAT, the Service Charge pays for call handling and call forwarding with the remainder available to be paid out to the called party as revenue share.

http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/docs.html?insanity

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« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2017 at 2:55pm by Ian01 »  
 
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allegro
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 7:23am
 
I know that is what is meant to happen. Even though it's both unfair and daft. I was wondering whether there was any sort of unofficial (and likely illegal) back channel where part of the access charge ends up being paid to the service provider.

Or are the phone companies just rubbing their hands with glee over this revenue stream while they can?
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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #5 - Jul 26th, 2017 at 9:34am
 

The unbundled tariff is far from daft. It is exactly what's needed to reveal how much the called party benefits from incoming calls. Remember, many organisations spent years denying there was any such financial benefit in their favour. The unbundled tariff forces them to declare exactly how much it is. And, the fact that on calls to 084 and 087 numbers the access charge far exceeds the service charge provides the best argument to end usage of those numbers for all purposes.

It must also be remembered that introduction of the unbundled tariff has, in general, led to a huge reduction in the cost of calling 09 and 118 numbers from mobile phones. For example, a directory enquiries service that used to be charged at 40p per call from a BT landline was charged at £5 per minute from one particular mobile provider. That call is now 55p per minute Access Charge plus 40p per call Service Charge when made through that mobile provider. From a BT landline, the Access Charge is 12p per minute. Before 2015, BT was not allowed to retain revenue on originating calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers, almost all of the money paid by the caller was effectively passed on to the called party and their telecoms provider.

Obviously, the cost of calling some 09 and 118 numbers has rocketed with massive increases in service charges for some individual services. The unbundled tariff makes clear that any such increase is due to the service provider, not the caller's phone provider.

As more and more organisations abandon usage of 084 and 087 numbers, the revenue stream is drying up.

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« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2017 at 9:43am by Ian01 »  
 
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allegro
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #6 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:59am
 
I think you have misunderstood what I meant was "daft". It was entirely correct to separate the service and access elements. What's daft is the high level of service charge that's levied by phone companies in order to give a relatively small payment to the companies using 084/7 numbers.

It just makes me wonder if there is some kind of illegal collusion between BT, Vodaphone etc on the one hand and the companies that provide 084 etc numbers.
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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #7 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 9:06am
 

On a number with a 7p per minute Service Charge, 5.83p per minute is available after VAT is taken off. Once the call-handling and call-forwarding costs are removed this leaves less than 5p per minute for revenue share payments.

On a number with a 13p per minute Service Charge, 10.83p per minute is available after VAT is taken off. Once the call-handling and call-forwarding costs are removed this leaves less than 10p per minute for revenue share payments.

Some providers of non-geographic numbers retain most of the revenue, some pay most of it out. Having a separate Service Charge provides clarity for businesses, many of whom are being ripped off by their phone provider.

If businesses want a higher level of revenue share, they can choose a number with a larger Service Charge - price points up to £6 per call and/or up to £3.60 per minute are available. Using a revenue share model to get a 5p per minute payout (on an 084 number with a 7p per minute Service Charge) is absurd. Minimum wage is £8 per hour. 5p per minute is just £3 per hour - but the caller could be paying £37.20 per hour. This shows the absurdity of using these numbers.

The high level of Access Charge levied by phone providers is a necessity as this also has to cover bad debt provision where the caller does not pay the bill for the call. The phone provider still has to settle the Service Charge with the Service Provider and their telecoms provider - and this can be up to £16 per call plus up to £8 per minute after the first 60 seconds. The high level of Access Charge remains the best argument for usage of 084 and 087 numbers to cease for all purposes. If businesses need a little bit of extra income then it is far more efficient to add it to the price of the goods or services and then, after VAT, they get to keep all of what the customer paid.

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« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2017 at 1:10pm by Ian01 »  
 
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CJT-80
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #8 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 3:53pm
 
allegro wrote on Jul 24th, 2017 at 1:25pm:
In today's Guardian the Gala for Grenfell at the Adelphi Theatre gives 020 3725 7060 as the number. They then say: "Calls are charged at 7p per minute plus standard network rates"


The person who provided the info for the advert fouled up, it's an advert so I presume that's handled by the Advertising Standards Authority.  In addition the info provided by the Really Useful Group is misleading/wrong for the 0844 numbers.  No info is provided for any of the 020 numbers.

I would suggest sending RUG an e-mail highlighting their errors.

Smiley
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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #9 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 8:39am
 

If anyone is sending an email, it would be more useful to point out that their usage of a premium rate 0844 number forces callers to pay up to 62p per minute just so they can receive a revenue share payment of no more than around 5p per minute.

Minimum wage is around £8 per hour. Income of 5p per minute is £3 per hour - but callers will have paid up to £37.20 per hour for the calls to those 0844 numbers. If the theatre group really needs that £3 per hour extra income, then changing the numbers over to the matching 0344 numbers and levying the additional charge as a 'telephone booking fee' would save callers up to £34.20 per hour.

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CJT-80
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #10 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 11:06am
 
Ian01 wrote on Jul 28th, 2017 at 8:39am:
If anyone is sending an email, it would be more useful to point out that their usage of a premium rate 0844 number forces callers to pay up to 62p per minute just so they can receive a revenue share payment of no more than around 5p per minute.

Minimum wage is around £8 per hour. Income of 5p per minute is £3 per hour - but callers will have paid up to £37.20 per hour for the calls to those 0844 numbers. If the theatre group really needs that £3 per hour extra income, then changing the numbers over to the matching 0344 numbers and levying the additional charge as a 'telephone booking fee' would save callers up to £34.20 per hour.


Done, it's quite a lengthy e-mail but I have pointed out the call costs part as detail above!  Cool
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #11 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 11:32am
 
Can I commend our briefing -


- as a useful link to use in any such communication.
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CJT-80
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #12 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 1:01pm
 
Good Afternoon SCV,

I should have included some links to releases from the Fair Telecom's Campaign (FTC), but I will admit in haste I forgot!

I think that the work of the FTC is fantastic.  Smiley
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CJT-80
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #13 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 5:44pm
 
Well would you believe it... a rather "simple" reply from the only e-mail I could find for RUG:

Quote:
Thank you for your feedback. Please be aware we are moving our booking lines to geographic 020 numbers in the autumn.

Kind regards,
The Online Team


Initially I would say this is excellent news, however in the interim they need to update the incorrect call charge information for their 0844 numbers.

What does anyone else feel?

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CJT-80

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Ian01
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Re: "Gala for Grenfell" phone charges all wrong
Reply #14 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 11:02pm
 

I would be more inclined to ask why a simple number change is delayed by months. Changing the numbers to eliminate premium rate call charges has to be the most important action.

No call charge statement is needed for 020 numbers. Less words that need to go on web pages or in adverts.
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