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Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative (Read 7,180 times)
NGMsGhost
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Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative
Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:50pm
 
I have been a customer of www.andica.co.uk tax calculation software this year and last year as its the cheapest and also most user friendly way to submit a personal tax return to HMRC that has to include the SA107 Income from Trusts form (not supported by HMRC itself along with Ministers of Religion and a few others for stated reasons that seem to make no sense).  The absolute cheapest for the software is www.sa2000.co.uk (who also quote a normal number and have very helpful phone support staff) but they completely rule themselves out by insisting their product only works with Microsoft Excel and not OpenOffice.  But if you were wanting to save about £3 on software compared to Andica then you wouldn't want to have to go out and buy a copy of Excel!!!  Also when I spoke to  SA2000 they claimed OpenOffice doesn't support Macros at all but actually it does support Macros but just not their very specialist kind that only Excel supports (never had an issue using any other spreadsheet with OpenOffice before during 15 years of use).

So anyway the main query with Andica was how would my Windows PC handle installing the 2017 version alongside the 2016 version and what would happen to the 2016 data.  If you call the 0845 number (which cost me 7p or something) via www.1815.co.uk then in any case you will find its only an Answerphone as various other people have done before (see www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/andica-ct600-software). ; So I emailed them with the question via their website yesterday and they replied 3 hours later saying the 2017 version was a separate program so would install alongside the previous year's version and not overwrite it.  Meanwhile I had already taken the plunge (due to the looming deadline at midnight) and found this was the case anyway.

The software is quite good and also the cheapest that works (since SA2000 is a non starter for me) but the company's continued use of 0845 on the pretence it is a Sale only number is very annoying.  In reality customers are most likely to need technical support from the company.  The company seems to be a husband and wife team and run from a home address in High Wycombe (see https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/05159803-andica-software-limited?page
=people-contacts) and in fact it was Mona Vithlani (one of the two directors) who responded by email answering my query about software installation.

I imagine this 0845 is a voip only number with a service provider that has a voice mailbox (they then get emails, possibly with the voicemail attached, alerting them to any new calls) just so that they don't run the risk of people actually getting their home phone line or having to take calls outside office hours.  I have tried online Directory Enquiries to search on their surname and the company at the address given on Endlole in High Wycombe but still had no luck.  So in my view the only way round this if somebody has managed to persuade one of the Vithlanis to call them back on a technical query and a real landline or mobile was given on their CLI?

So bottom line is I don't have the time or energy to go to the Small Claims Court to get my 7p pence back from the Vithlanis and I have already told them by email 0845 numbers were banned at least 3 years ago but clearly they won't listen to a customer.

So what regulator can I invoke that might force them to change policy?  Would it be the ASA, PhonePayPlus or quite who else exactly?

It is very annoying to find certain organisations who still carry on with 0845, even though they must have had endless complaints and also observed that everyone else using 0845 has replaced it with an 03 something or other alternative or just a straight 01/02 landline number.

Any suggestions on this issue gratefully appreciated.
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Ian01
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Re: Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative
Reply #1 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 5:15pm
 

Where a retailer, trader or passenger transport company operates a premium rate 084, 087 or 09 number for after-sales enquiries and issues in breach of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 they can be reported to the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline. They collate complaints and forward them onwards to the relevant local Trading Standards department.

Reports can be made via 0345 404 0506 or via the report form on the Citizen's Advice website. In a number of cases, the system has been seen to work and achieve the desired compliance.

For an organisation using a premium rate number starting 087 or 09, reports can also be made to the Phone-paid Services Authority. The effectiveness of this is unknown.

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« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:04am by Ian01 »  
 
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NGMsGhost
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Re: Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative
Reply #2 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:18am
 
Ian01 wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 5:15pm:
Where a retailer, trader or passenger transport company operates a premium rate 084, 087 or 09 number for after-sales enquiries and issues in breach of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 they can be reported to the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline. They collate complaints and forward them onwards to the relevant local Trading Standards department.


Thanks Ian,

I will give this a try and see what effect it has.  But are you saying that the ASA would not be interested any more, even though Andica does not warn that calling them costs more than a standard geographic number and is subject to two different forms of sub charging?

I am also somewhat tempted to email Andica directing them to the existence of this discussion thread, which will in time become quite well indexed by Google.
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Ian01
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Re: Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative
Reply #3 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:30am
 

Usage of premium rate numbers starting 084, 087 or 09 is now banned for most purposes. These numbers must be changed. The usual route is to move 084 and 087 lines over to the exactly matching 034 or 037 number. Other options include changing to a completely new number in the 01, 02, 030, 033 or 080 ranges. It's a waste of time reporting missing call charge information when the end goal is for the number to be changed.

Where 084, 087 or 09 numbers remain in use and are being used for a legitimate purpose, missing call charge information can be reported to ASA. As before, where this issue affects any numbers starting 087 or 09, this can also be reported to PSA.

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0845 Numbers Are Not Actually Illegal
Reply #4 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am
 
Ian01 wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:30am:
Where 084, 087 or 09 numbers remain in use and are being used for a legitimate purpose, missing call charge information can be reported to ASA. As before, where this issue affects any numbers starting 087 or 09, this can also be reported to PSA.


Why does it matter whether the continue use of 084/7 is legitimate or not?  Surely ASA rules still require the call cost to be correctly described so the caller is not wrongly led to believe it is part of their inclusive calling allowance?  Also my understanding was that the operators of these numbers had to disclose the Service Charge and per minute charge for calling these numbers?  I see BT is now up to 13p per minute for calling 0845 in the weekday daytime.  Yet weak as water OFCON does precisely nothing to clamp down on these scam charging rates (noting that some how BT affords to carry calls to this same number for free in the evening and at the weekend).

When you say 0845 is illegal that's just not true.  It breaches the terms of a minor statutory instrument if used for customer support but the only remedy is a civil one of the customer asking for their money back and having to go to the small claims court if the call recipient ignores them.  But its guaranteed in advance that a company like Andica will simply ignore any complaints.

They have already just ignored my written complaint about their 0845 even though I am a paying customer of their software product.

The solution is for OFCON to simply ban these number ranges from use at all but of course the pathetically weak OFCON won't get round to that for another 10 years................
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« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am by NGMsGhost »  

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Ian01
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Re: Andica Tax Software 0845 Alternative
Reply #5 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:48am
 

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am:
Why does it matter whether the continue use of 084/7 is legitimate or not?  Surely ASA rules still require the call cost to be correctly described so the caller is not wrongly led to believe it is part of their inclusive calling allowance?

It would seem to be a waste of effort asking a business to add call charge information to a number that they should no longer be using. Instead, campaigning efforts are best directed at getting them to change the number.


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am:
Also my understanding was that the operators of these numbers had to disclose the Service Charge and per minute charge for calling these numbers?

Users of these numbers must state the Service Charge and mention that the caller's phone provider will add an Access Charge.

The Service Charge may be a per-call charge, a per-minute rate or a combination of both. Where a per-minute rate is included, it is charged per-second.

The Access Charge is always a per-minute rate, but is usually charged per-second after the first 60 seconds. Per-call connection fees, to the benefit of the caller's phone provider, are not permitted on calls to 084, 087, 09 or 118 numbers.


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am:
I see BT is now up to 13p per minute for calling 0845 in the weekday daytime.

BT's Access Charge for calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers is 13p per minute at all times. There is no variation by time of day or day of week. However, Ofcom has allowed BT to retain calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers within inclusive allowances. In those cases, the Access Charge and Service Charge are waived even though the called party's phone provider still has to be paid.

EE's landline Access Charge is 13.5p per minute. Vodafone and O2 have set their Access Charge at 55p per minute.

On top of this, the caller pays a Service Charge that benefits the called party and their telecoms provider. The Service Charge varies according to the telephone number called.

Unlimited Anytime calls to UK landline numbers starting 01 and 02, non-geographic numbers starting 03 and premium rate numbers starting 0845 and 0870 costs around £9 per month with BT. For similar money other landline providers also include calls to UK mobile numbers starting 071-075 and 077-079. However, most of those other providers no longer offer inclusive calls to premium rate 0845 or 0870 numbers.


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am:
Yet weak as water OFCON does precisely nothing to clamp down on these scam charging rates (noting that some how BT affords to carry calls to this same number for free in the evening and at the weekend).

BT is the largest supplier of 0845 and 0870 numbers to businesses. When a call is made from another landline or mobile provider to one of the numbers controlled by BT, BT receives the Service Charge revenue paid by the caller. When a BT retail customer makes a call to an 0845 or 0870 number controlled by another telecoms provider, BT has to pay out Service Charge revenue to that other provider. The former happens vastly more than the latter. The difference in revenues allows BT to offer inclusive calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers for their retail customers. This is an anomaly in the market, one that will not persist. Other retail providers have, in the main, decided to not include calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers within allowances. And, as there is no single dominant provider of other 084 or 087 numbers no-one includes these within allowances.

Given that usage of 084 and 087 numbers is now banned for most purposes, there should be almost no need to ever call them.


NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:41am:
The solution is for OFCON to simply ban these number ranges from use at all but of course the pathetically weak OFCON won't get round to that for another 10 years................

On 13 June 2014, BIS banned retailers, traders and passenger transport companies from using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for after-sales enquiries and issues.

On 26 October 2015, the FCA extended the regulations to cover banks, card companies and insurers.

On 26 December 2013, the Cabinet Office effectively banned government departments, their agencies and other public services from using 084, 087 or 09 numbers.

Ofcom could not institute such bans as they regulate suppliers of telecoms services, not users of such services.

Ofcom's part in all of this was to separate out the distinct components of these call charges making clear that callers pay both their phone provider for the call and an additional, or premium, charge to the benefit of the called party and their telecoms provider. This has slowed the sale of such numbers to businesses as it is now clear that (notwithstanding the anomaly with BT retail tariffs for calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers) callers pay more to call 084, 087 and 09 numbers than to call an 01, 02 or 03 number.

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« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2018 at 8:26pm by Ian01 »  
 
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