Hi Everybody

I was checking my Virgin bill yesterday as I do periodically and I enquired about including 0845 etc numbers in my Talk Unlimited Call Plan. The answer I received was that they have a plan to include all numbers with a limit of 800 minutes a month this is of no use to me as I exceed this level. I then reluctantly went to the BT site and I believe that they now include 0845 0870 and 03 numbers in their call plans. I recall some time ago that Sayno launched an attack on Virgin in regard to the Technical support service and their charges and they overturned their decision, now the service is free of charge.  

I think that 0870 is a fantastic site, I use it regularly and I do not wish to dilute its use but maybe we aught to lobby Virgin to include 0870 0845 and 03 numbers in the Talk Unlimited Package. I would like feedback in this regard can you let me know your views please, I do appreciate that this may not sit with the SANYO policy.

But surley Virgin include 03 numbers in their packages?

VIRGIN does include 030 0845 and 0870 but it is included in the talk anywhere minutes and if you are on the talk unlimited as I am the 08 numbers are not included but they are with BT.

Thanks for the feedback

03 numbers must be billed exactly as 01/02 numbers - if you have unlimited calls to 01/02, then 03 calls should be unlimited too.

BT, incidentally, do have a fair-use policy on 0845/0870 numbers being called within their call plans: here
Quote:

Fair use policy applies – max. 1,000 mins or 150 calls a month. If either of these limits on free calls is exceeded, BT will charge for these calls until further notice

FWIW, you can always try substituting 03 for 08 in any 08xxx number to see if it works - all matching numbers are reserved for migration use.  It's always possible that your contacts have set them up but not yet publicised the changes.

bazzerfewi wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009 at 6:49am:

I was checking my Virgin bill yesterday as I do periodically and I enquired about including 0845 etc numbers in my Talk Unlimited Call Plan. The answer I received was that they have a plan to include all numbers with a limit of 800 minutes a month this is of no use to me as I exceed this level. I then reluctantly went to the BT site and I believe that they now include 0845 0870 and 03 numbers in their call plans. I recall some time ago that Sayno launched an attack on Virgin in regard to the Technical support service and their charges and they overturned their decision, now the service is free of charge.   I think that 0870 is a fantastic site, I use it regularly and I do not wish to dilute its use but maybe we aught to lobby Virgin to include 0870 0845 and 03 numbers in the Talk Unlimited Package. I would like feedback in this regard can you let me know your views please, I do appreciate that this may not sit with the SANYO policy.

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you here. Including 0845 calls in packages is a bad move because it masks the underlying issues which still exist, and this is the principle that facilitates revenue sharing.

In essence, the call retailers (BT, Virgin Media, Talk Talk etc) are charged a far higher "wholesale" call rate for revenue sharing numbers than geographical and 03 numbers. Thus, the net effect is that charges will go up.


Packages from Virgin Media are here.

Talk Unlimited: "Unlimited" inclusive calls to 01/02/03 numbers at all times for £7.95 plus £11 line rental.

Talk Anywhere 200/400/800: Limited number of inclusive minutes to 01/02/03/Mobile/0845/0870 numbers at all times for £9/£17/£29 plus £11 line rental.


The Talk Anywhere packages are distinctly like mobile tariffs. You pay a monthly fee and get a finite quota of inclusive minutes. Thus, the amount you pay is relative to the number of minutes and therefore it is possible to arrive at an equivalent pence per minute, assuming that all minutes are used.

"Unlimited" allow, in general, infinite number of minutes. Thus, the qualifier for moving to one of these tariffs is that the amount you spend on calls to the type included is greater than the cost of the package.


Let's examine the Talk Anywhere 800 package. Your 800 minutes cover 01/02/03/Mobile/0845/0870, for example, if you make 500 calls to 01/02/03 numbers then make 500 minutes worth of 0845 calls, you will be charged for the package plus 200 minutes of 0845 calls. If you do it the other way around, ie 500 0845 minutes then 500 01/02/03 minutes, you will be billed for 200 01/02/03 minutes. The cost is obviously less for the 01/02/03 numbers.

This is a simple example. The highest value calls that are included are those to mobiles. For example, take two extremes. Supposing one month you make 800 minutes to 01/02/03 numbers only (no other calls) and then the next you make 800 to mobiles (no other calls). You will have got far more value from the £29 monthly fee in the second month than the first.

In all cases calls have cost average of 3.625 pence per minute.

The purpose of my posting is to illustrate that it's not a simple case of wanting more minutes or inclusive 0845 (or mobile) calls being the best solution. If it's daytime calls to 0845 numbers you want, then BT is by and far the cheapest.

Thanks Dave

I take on board what you say and it makes sence now, I did not see the full picture

Baz

Well done Dave for pointing out some important distinctions.

The VirginMedia "Talk Anywhere" package (which includes mobiles, 0845 and 0870) is very different from the "Unlimited" packages that both it and BT offer. It is of value only to those who make a high number and proportion of expensive calls.

03 must be included in packages where 01/02 are included.

From 1 August, those who will be dropping the price of 0870 calls to that of 01/02 calls, because revenue sharing will be prohibited, may as well include them in inclusive packages. BT simply anticipated this change by making this move early.

Because BT's margin on 0845 calls is uniquely regulated it offers them relatively cheaply anyway and has relatively little to lose by including them in unlimited packages.

On balance it is probably not worth wishing for the price of packages to be increased so as to accommodate the cost of the revenue share on 0845 numbers.

Ofcom is set to look at 0845 over the coming months and may remove the revenue share from this also. If this happens then it will be natural for others to lower their charges and include 0845 in unlimited packages.

Things are on the move, let us see what happens.

N.B. 0844 call type g6 remains outside of all of this as the home for "lower" premium rate.

The VM Talk Anywhere package includes calls to International Numbers and International Mobiles.

So the highest value calls that are included are probaly those to Intl mobiles.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009 at 11:22pm:

On balance it is probably not worth wishing for the price of packages to be increased so as to accommodate the cost of the revenue share on 0845 numbers.

They already did this in April when they increased the line rental by £1. per month,(£12 per year), making them an extra £168,000,000, per year from the estimated 14 million customers, therefore more than making up for any loss of revenue share on the actual numbers,(including 0870 numbers).

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jul 27^th, 2009 at 11:22pm:

Ofcom is set to look at 0845 over the coming months and may remove the revenue share from this also. If this happens then it will be natural for others to lower their charges and include 0845 in unlimited packages.

I don't belive they will look into this and on the off chance they do then they wont do nothing with 0845 and will most likely leave it as it is!!!

A review of 0845 has always been the next item on the agenda for the long-running Numbering Transparency project. It is a top priority item in the 2009-10 Ofcom Annual Plan.

BT's inclusion of 0845 in call plans and its increasing efforts to force its customers to use them, quite apart from its already perverse pricing, takes a lot of the heat out of the issue. This may get worse when the cost of calling geographic numbers (if paying BT) exceeds that of calling 0844 numbers in October (although 0844 numbers are excluded from call plans).

I have often said that if we are seeking regulatory change, then Ofcom is our only hope. If we truly believe that it cannot deliver, then we are foolishly wasting our time and energies and simply engaging in pointless moaning. Without a very powerful advocate and champion, all change for the better is slow and filled with disappointments.

Some believe that a new government, which does not believe that a lightly regulated market is the best means of delivering the best deal for consumers and has no regard for the vested interests of major companies (e.g. one that would subject them to windfall taxes on taking office), will cause Ofcom to totally change its ways, or bring its functions back under direct government control in a bout of quango-icide. I regret that I cannot see any prospect of such a government in the foreseeable future and so I aim to keep up the gentle pressure with a fair expectation that we will continue to achieve further modest success.