Dave wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 4:41pm:


I'm not saying what you are trying to achieve is incorrect, however the result of publishing 01xx numbers only encourages people to call them as they believe that they will be getting a cheaper call or in some packages a free call. In my experience which is quite extensive within this arena, on average it is cheaper and much less time consuming to call the advertised premium number than to call a unqualified 01xx number. You never get the 01xx number (there are usually multiple ones anyway) behind the premium number as they change regualrly depending on business campaigns/redistribution of calls, etc etc.

For those that don't know that are reading this a typical call flow for a call to a 084x number tends to go through at 1 lot of pre routing (For businesses with large customer bases, banks, road side assistance, etc. What this means is when you call one of these call centres your call before it is delivered out of the BT cloud does some interigation as to where to deliver your call depending on certain criteria, usually LAA (longest available agent) or MED (minimum expected delay). Yes whilst companies do gain revenue from 084x numbers it is more than offset by agent cost. It is the interest of large organisations to answer your calls quickly and efficiently.  Your call is then delivered to a local number at one of the sites able to best handle your call. Calling a 01xx number takes out this option of delivery and you call will be delivered to wherever that 01xx number is set to deliver, this can change every hour if needed.  Companies advertise the number they want to to call.

Your website whilst having a good intention is only costing your readers more money, wasting thier time and generating more money for the Telco's.  Oh yes and generating an income from advertising/sales for the owner of the site.  I'm quite curious now, in the interest of fair play and you wanting companies to declare income from the premium numbers, how much income does this website generate?

Regards

SP

There is a genuine, and mistaken, belief amongst many users of the saynoto0870 database that the alternative number given is simply the one and only underlying number below the published non-geographic number.

Where this is not the case and the alternative is offering alternative access, this should be clearly identified. If SP could help in this regard, it would be most valuable.


More should also be done to help both sides understand that nobody actually "makes money" out of calls to 084 numbers, other than the telephone companies. The modest subsidy from which the user benefits is relatively petty when set against the cost of call handling. This cost saving does help the bottom line, but nobody would set up a service on a 0845 number in order to generate a net income.

One therefore wonders why people persist in using these numbers when callers pay such a premium: 10p plus 10p per minute as a premium for Virgin Media customer with the XL package, 40p per minute as a premium for some mobile contract holders with inclusive packages. No wonder that some people look desperately for possibly unsuitable alternatives. Is the risk of losing or upsetting these callers really worth the modest benefit received from choosing 084 over 03?


The database could be clearer in warning users that it offers no guarantee that any one of the numbers listed is cheaper than any other. There are many who are unaware of the present perverse position of BT in respect of calls made outside the period covered by the call plan, or indeed as has always been the case with BT in respect of 0845 calls.

The misunderstanding about the oddness of BT's position occurs "on the other side" as well. SP refers to costs as if all 084 calls were made to 0845 numbers during the weekday daytime by those who subscribe to the BT weekend or evening and weekend call plan. Callers from Virgin Media, public payphones or mobiles pay more for all calls to 084 numbers.


I personally see no problem whatsoever in companies offering a Premium Rate Service by telephone. It should be identified as such and the additional cost involved (calling from most providers) should be suitably advised. It is perhaps unfortunate that those who use the cheaper premium rate numbers are not able to formally describe themselves as offering a "Premium Rate Service". That privilege is reserved for those who use 0871 and the more expensive numbers.

Those who are ready to provide the premium service at no additional cost to the caller (barring penalty charges imposed on some customers by BT) are able to do so using 03 numbers. The modest loss of subsidy and the additional cost incurred should indeed be seen as petty when set against the higher agent costs willingly incurred in actually providing the superior standard of call handling.

ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

There are many things that in life that have consequences. For example, where a road is opened that connects two existing roads, it is likely to result in through traffic to a certain degree, regardless of the steps that are taken to minimise it. Some retailers offer discount codes, such as those printed in newspapers in order to offer readers an introductory discount. Some websites specialise in allowing these codes to be shared between their users meaning that the discounts being claimed won't be limited to readers of the newspapers the advert was placed in.

Any organisation that uses a revenue sharing/premium number must accept that it is likely that customers will try and bypass this charging mechanism. There may be a cost to the business of dealing with calls to back-door numbers and this cost may include having the unofficial numbers disabled, where the company deems it necessary.

Some sites, such as Gethuman, specialise in tips to jump call queues by pressing certain keys when listening to IVRs. That is not the intention of this website, although, of course, the back door numbers we publish may result in customers getting their call answered quicker or slower than if they had rung a published 0845 number.

I appreciate what you say about the 01/02 number being listed on SAYNOTO0870.COM not being the best one at the time a call is made. When I am listing alternatives in the database, where I have a choice, I will list the one which responds most like the organisation's 084x number. So if I have a 01/02 number that goes straight to hold music and one that has the same IVR (menu) as is on the NGN, then the latter will be listed.

The point is that the database contains the best alternative numbers we have for each purpose. A better alternative number than one which is found to answer with the same IVR (which is on the NGN) is one provided by the organisation itself. In many cases these are not available, so we go with the best we've got.


I gather back door alternatives for your organisation have been listed here. Setup a 03 number to run in parallel with each 084x number (i.e. calls are directed in exactly the same way), provide me with a list of them (Dave at Say no to 0870 dot com) and I will replace them with any unofficial 01/02 alternatives we have listed. If that's not possible, then let me know more suitable 01/02/03 alternatives, such as a main office switchboard that will put calls through.

This will make customers happy as they will not have to pay a premium and they won't need to go looking for alternatives, meaning that your company is far less likely to have to disable any 01/02 numbers. The 03 numbers will also provide call statistics, so your company will know how popular they are, and this may assist it when considering its phone numbering policy in the future.


ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

If people really experienced higher phone bills, then they wouldn't use the site. Quite a number have inclusive calls, meaning that even if they do last longer, the cost will likely be less.

There is another cost element that I am concerned about and that is the cost of the "advanced" routing systems, which are, in effect, the front end of the telecommunications connection into call centres. With 084x numbers these services are paid for by callers, whereas with 03 numbers the cost for them is transferred entirely to call recipients (service providers or SPs). Some SPs may naively consider them to be provided "free", out of the generosity of their telecommunications provider.


ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 5:04pm:

I don't believe that the site owner has ever made any statement on this. I'm a member just like the rest, except that I have been given Moderator status on the forum and can change entries in the database, so I can't advise further.



I think that we are coming to a better understanding of one another's position on this. As I say, if your company can be persuaded to set up 03 numbers alongside its 084x numbers, then I will list them in place of the back door 01/02 numbers.  

Dave wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 10:26pm:


I'm not so sure you do understand exactly, I will state my position. I am a consultant for a product from Cisco (I don't work for Cisco) called ICM. I have done a lot of work with many of the UK Telco's and larger companies that have a ICM platform. I can only tell you that they experience little to no problems with your attempt to circumvent the non geographical numbers, the amount (%) of people calling 01xx numbers is so small that it doesn't concern them, it doesn't show up on thier stats and as such there is no driver to fix the issue. At best if they notice these calls at all and they can be bothered to identify the source (01xx) they may just busy out that number.

As I say all that is really happening is

1: that if the number is busied out your reader may incure a charge and get no satisfaction.
2: the call gets routed to a skill that is either unmanned or is unable to deal with it.
3: the call hits the right skill but has a worse service level than another skill elsewhere within the estate, so your reader may waste his/her time and possibly more money than if calling the 08xx.
4: your call gets through and hits the right queue.

I have no vested interest in any company that uses any premium number, I just want people to understand that calling the 01 number listed here may not be the most economical (cash and/or time).


Regards

SP

Dave wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 2:49pm:

I see this, perhaps final, exchange representing a well rounded acknowledgement of the benefits, limits and dangers of the database of alternative numbers after some worthy, if sometimes excessive, blows had been struck.

It may be worthwhile for Dave to collect some of his points into a posting on the new blog. Other members would doubtless wish to prepare alternative summaries to offer in comment.